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@coal
I'm ugg the caveman check out my debates, the guy was obsessed with voting me down and talking shit about me when I couldn't respond cuz he's some butt hurt theist
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Oh also, just to clear up the story, I teach 10th grade Biology, not 6th grade, and I believe I'm a pretty good debater given my standing here on the site, so the characterization of a knuckle-dragging caveman is just not that accurate.
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I get a suspicious feeling that I'm ugg in this story...obsess much...jeez!
Flattering really.
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@Wylted
"It sounds possible."
Explain this to LM
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@Wylted
In your estimation could the Devil have written the Bible?
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Is John 8:44 correct?
"the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
In Job, the devil says a few things and they were lies, because there is no truth in him, i.e. deception is always expected of the devil.
Is John 8:44 correct or incorrect?
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@Logical-Master
That didn't negate anything about no truth in the devil.
You've lost sir...bow out now.
Your bible says all lies for the devil, you've admitted deception in his house, you've given no reason to doubt that the devil is capable of deceiving people by writing the bible, and you've special pleaded, contrary to the general rule that the devil is capable of deception, that the devil is incapable of deceiving with the bible.
Your bible says all lies for the devil, you've admitted deception in his house, you've given no reason to doubt that the devil is capable of deceiving people by writing the bible, and you've special pleaded, contrary to the general rule that the devil is capable of deception, that the devil is incapable of deceiving with the bible.
John 8:44 and logic require that you bow out or just admit that writing the bible sounds like a deception the devil would be capable of.
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@Logical-Master
Right, I cherry picked that "there is no truth in him" which is an absolute, not subject to gradation by anything else.
Do you have any reason to doubt John 8:44 that there is NO truth in the devil?
If there's no truth in the devil, then we would expect him to always be deceitful.
Do you have any reason to doubt John 8:44 that there is NO truth in the devil?
If there's no truth in the devil, then we would expect him to always be deceitful.
This fits in line with writing the bible deceptively.
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@Logical-Master
John 8:44
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Hahahaha I beat logical-master at both logic and religion.
1. Logical master special pleads "deceptive bible writing" to the general rule that "the devil is capable of deception."
Logic point lost.
2. Logical master tries to say that claiming that the devil is always deceiving is a strawman, but his own book proved him wrong.
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@Logical-Master
When is the devil not expected to deceive?
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@Logical-Master
It's funny that a guy named logical master doesn't understand that using a special pleading fallacy (it's always expected of the devil to deceive, except for writing the bible) isn't indicative of goalposts being moved.
Logical-master, you have been accused of being illogical because you are special pleading deceptively writing the bible from the general rule that the devil is capable of deception.
This is not moving the goalposts.
This is having you explain how it is that bible writing is exempt from devil deception.
Special pleading is not answering, you should know that given your name.
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@Logical-Master
remote possibility out there.
Why is the devil writing the bible a remote possibility?
Seriously, you've not said why.
The moon being made of spare ribs is not expected of the moon.
Seriously, you've not said why.
The moon being made of spare ribs is not expected of the moon.
Why is deception expected of the devil, but not that particular deception?
This is mate on you...you've objectively lost this exchange...I'm sorry, you're of no more intellectual value to this conversation because you've failed to answer.
Noted.
This is mate on you...you've objectively lost this exchange...I'm sorry, you're of no more intellectual value to this conversation because you've failed to answer.
Noted.
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@Logical-Master
Is being made of barbecue food in the house of the moon?
Oh, so you wrote another stupid analogy ignoring that deception is in the devils house again.
Youve flailed and failed to answer how the possibility is very real given what you expect from the devil and not the moon, harry Potter or the matrix.
I knew I was right and you confirmed it here.
Dieect questions sank you due to your futility.
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@secularmerlin
Well put.
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@Fallaneze
Both claim an intelligent designer behind actually natural processes.
Both seek to retrofit science with an intelligent designer.
Both start their approaches assuming an intelligent designer exists and must be responsible for everything, no matter what they find to the contrary.
Creationism and ID are like Bald and Hairless.
Theyre the same attempt to argue god.
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@Fallaneze
Neither have methodologies, so they are the same.
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@Fallaneze
Same smell.
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@secularmerlin
Agreed, but when the definition includes "specific acts of divinity" we're not talking about natural entities anymore, are we?
"rather than by natural processes" and "specific acts of divinity" necessarily exclude the natural gods/deities.
"rather than by natural processes" and "specific acts of divinity" necessarily exclude the natural gods/deities.
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@Logical-Master
Find a passage that supports "the devil wrote the Bible."
I don't need to I have your concession.
You've already answered these two questions.
1. Is deception and trickery in the devils house?
Yes.
You've already answered these two questions.
1. Is deception and trickery in the devils house?
Yes.
2. Is deceptively writing a holy book in the category of deception and trickery?
Yes.
Yes.
If we're talking about the POSSIBILITY of there being a deceptive trick in the Devil's house, you have to admit that at least the writing of the bible, being that it's a deceptive trick, is POSSIBLE to exist in the devil's house.
If it's the case that the Matrix is in fact a real thing and deceiving humans' life is in the house of the matrix, then yeah it's possible we live in the matrix.
If it's the case that Valdemort being transsexual and a twin of harry potter is in Valdemort's house, then it is possible he is a transsexual twin.
Why is this type of deception just not POSSIBLE in the devil's house?
This is where you've dodged.
C'mon man, just be honest here.
If it's the case that the Matrix is in fact a real thing and deceiving humans' life is in the house of the matrix, then yeah it's possible we live in the matrix.
If it's the case that Valdemort being transsexual and a twin of harry potter is in Valdemort's house, then it is possible he is a transsexual twin.
Why is this type of deception just not POSSIBLE in the devil's house?
This is where you've dodged.
C'mon man, just be honest here.
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@Logical-Master
Show me the passage where "writing the Bible" is in the devil's house. Failure to do this will result in the end of this conversation.
I'm not the one claiming to know what the bible says, you told me about the whole house thing anyway...remember?
I'm asking you, what in the bible indicates to you that bible deception is not in the devil's house?
Here are literally all of your responses:
Q. Is there bible-writing-deception in the devil's house given known powerful deception being part of the devil's nature?
A. "No"
At this point you hadn't bothered to explain this or anything, just, plain unsubstantiated no.
At this point you hadn't bothered to explain this or anything, just, plain unsubstantiated no.
Q. Why not?
A. We don't know everything in his house. Encouraging Christians to live a life free of sin and reliant on God is as contrary to his nature as you can get.
Q. Couldn't the devil be deceiving you with this idea of what is contrary to the devil, especially since you don't know everything in his house?
A. Harry Potter/Matrix.
A. Harry Potter/Matrix.
Notice here, instead of pointing to bible evidence or something of equal analogy like if there were an "official" book that explains what's in Harry Potter's or the Matrix's houses, you point to irrelevant stories to the one about the devil.
Why not just use actual evidence?
Why not just use actual evidence?
Q. How do you marry logic and your response?
A. I see no indication of the devil having wrote the Bible.
So this is where we are, you've yet to point to any evidence except you see no indication.
You got anything to substantiate how you know, given that you don't know all of the things in the devil's house, bible deception is not something in the devil's house, but deception in general is?
You got anything to substantiate how you know, given that you don't know all of the things in the devil's house, bible deception is not something in the devil's house, but deception in general is?
Sounds like an opinion. Prove they're shitty. Then we'll take it from there. =)
They are not analogous because there's no authority book claiming that there are houses of particular characters.
You keep pointing to characters who are simply unlike the devil and don't have some book claiming that they have houses for things to be a part of.
It seems reasonable to conclude that if we don't know all of the devil's house, but we do know that deception and trickery are certainly there, it would make sense if the devil was being deceptive by writing the bible to cause the most deception.
You keep pointing to characters who are simply unlike the devil and don't have some book claiming that they have houses for things to be a part of.
It seems reasonable to conclude that if we don't know all of the devil's house, but we do know that deception and trickery are certainly there, it would make sense if the devil was being deceptive by writing the bible to cause the most deception.
I had said:
Except I'm not claiming I understand the Matrix's house.
Oh? Do you believe we're in the Matrix?
I don't understand enough about the matrix to make a determination, I don't claim to know anything about the matrix other than it's a fictional movie.
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@Logical-Master
Voldemort is duplicitous, obsessed with Harry Potter and is an other worldly being. If I'm to go by your logic, these possibilities are fair game.
So, in Voldemort's house is being a transsexual twin of harry potter there, yes or no?
I asked:
Why can't a bible deception be in the house of the devil, you've yet to respond to this.
Have answered it multiple times. As the judge would put it, move along counsel!
No, you said you see no indication, but you've already admitted to POWERFUL deception in the devil's house, and rather than actually telling me how you know that deception writing the bible isn't in the devil's house, you've referenced harry potter and the matrix, none of which go to any length to show how you know it's impossible for writing the bible being in the devil's house.
Answer directly, not with shitty analogies, but directly, why is it impossible for deception via bible writing to be in the devil's house...we've not moved on council, we've not yet begun.
Answer directly, not with shitty analogies, but directly, why is it impossible for deception via bible writing to be in the devil's house...we've not moved on council, we've not yet begun.
Same way you know, without personal incredulity that the limitations of the human mind is not cause to believe nor even consider that we're in the Matrix.
Except I'm not claiming I understand the Matrix's house.
You are claiming that deception is possible in the devil's house but bible deception is not...your reason so far has only been that you see no indication of it, am I correct here?
You are claiming that deception is possible in the devil's house but bible deception is not...your reason so far has only been that you see no indication of it, am I correct here?
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@Logical-Master
Yes. I see no indication of the devil having wrote the Bible.
So, you don't think that using the devil's powerful deception, which you've admitted is in his house, to write the bible is possible because you don't see any indication of it.
You don't see any indication, therefore it's not possible.
Personal incredulity?
You don't see any indication, therefore it's not possible.
Personal incredulity?
that Voldemort is Harry Potter's twin transsexual counterpart from the 12th dimension or that I am simply a brain in an empty vat.
Is being Harry Potter's twin transsexual in Valdemort's house?
Is being in the 12th dimension in Valdemort's house?
Answer this.
If it's no, your analogy blows donkeys and doesn't address deception being in the devil's house, does it?
Is being in the 12th dimension in Valdemort's house?
Answer this.
If it's no, your analogy blows donkeys and doesn't address deception being in the devil's house, does it?
Why can't a bible deception be in the house of the devil, you've yet to respond to this.
Your matrix and harry potter analogies are flawed.
Respond to how you know, without personal incredulity that the deception through bible writing is not in the devil's house, but deception in general is.
Yay.
Your matrix and harry potter analogies are flawed.
Respond to how you know, without personal incredulity that the deception through bible writing is not in the devil's house, but deception in general is.
Yay.
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@keithprosser
Now I'm convinced the devil exists too, this was excellent evidence.
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@keithprosser
Look if Kevin Spacey doesn't prove my point, what will?
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@keithprosser
I agree with him - the chances the devil wrote the bible are indeed effectively zero.
The devil's fooled you too apparently.
He's powerfully deceptive after all.
He's powerfully deceptive after all.
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@Logical-Master
I'll try this in a different way, given your name.
P1 The devil has powerful tricks and deception in his house (agreed by you).
P2 Deceptively writing a regarded holy book is a powerful deception.
C1 It is possible that deceptively writing a regarded holy book is in the devil's house.
I had asked:
Would using this powerful trickery and powerful deception to write the bible be something in the devil's house?
No.
Can you marry C1 and this response together?
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@Logical-Master
So, if you agree that deception and trickery are of the devil's house AND that you don't know everything in his house, couldn't the deception to write the bible be in his house and you not know about it?We don't know everything in his house.
We do, however, have a very solid grasp of his nature.
Right, which you admitted that powerful deception and powerful trickery were part of his nature.
So, if it's part of his nature to deceive, why is writing the bible to deceive out of the question?
If we've grasped that his nature is capable of such deception, why can't he use it to write the bible?
So, if it's part of his nature to deceive, why is writing the bible to deceive out of the question?
If we've grasped that his nature is capable of such deception, why can't he use it to write the bible?
And encouraging Christians to live a life free of sin and reliant on God is as contrary to his nature as you can get.
Yes, but if it's the case that the devil used the powerful deception from his house and wrote the bible, the "sins" christians are avoiding are actually virtues that the devil is trying to get christians to avoid and what are thought of as virtues are the devil's deceptive sins powerfully disguised.
No?
Why/why not?
No?
Why/why not?
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@Logical-Master
I asked:
Then, would using this powerful trickery and powerful deception to write the bible be something in the devil's house?
Then, would using this powerful trickery and powerful deception to write the bible be something in the devil's house?
No.
Why not?
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@Logical-Master
Then, would using this powerful trickery and powerful deception to write the bible be something in the devil's house?
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@Logical-Master
The dark lord is no stranger to tricks and deception himself.
So would you say that powerful tricks and powerful deception are in the devil's house?
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@Logical-Master
From a Christian standpoint, we can close the book on the "the devil is pulling all the strings" theory with Matthew 12:22-28.
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get to with my questions...I'm here to learn too, what does Matt 12:22-28 say on the matter?
The devil is not going to partake in anything that goes against his own house,
So if good things are happening, it can't be the devil?
Now if you can actually demonstrate through scripture why this theory is worth any more consideration than us being in the Matrix, I'm happy to discuss it further!
Well, if it's the case that the devil will not partake in anything that goes against his house, how do you know everything in his house?
Where's that list?
Genuinely asking here.
Where's that list?
Genuinely asking here.
Hell, look at it from non-theist standpoint: Why in the world should Harry Potter fans consider for one moment that Voldemort is secretly Harry's twin transsexual counterpart from the 12th dimension? Voldemort is a pretty tricky bastard after-all!
HAHAHAH awesome.
If Valdemort were wont to be transsexual and behaved regularly in the 12th dimension then this analogy would hold.
However, the devil is known to play tricks, known to try to deceive people, and known to be very powerful, so wouldn't it be well within his house to deceive people with a book?
If Valdemort were wont to be transsexual and behaved regularly in the 12th dimension then this analogy would hold.
However, the devil is known to play tricks, known to try to deceive people, and known to be very powerful, so wouldn't it be well within his house to deceive people with a book?
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@secularmerlin
Well some gods would be a part of nature, I concede that, but typically when one discusses with a creationist they don't believe that natural processes bring about life, so before they accept a debate they must agree that creationism is necessarily "rather than natural processes."
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@secularmerlin
"Rather than by natural processes"
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@Logical-Master
Which is why I say your questions are laced with the fallacy.
Hahaha, nice hedge, but the assertive "is literally an appeal to ignorance" was not referencing my questions when I asked where the conclusions were?
Come on.
Come on.
The fact that a Christian cannot prove that the devil wrote the Bible...
...highlights the inability to tell the difference between the two characters?
you cannot prove you aren't currently hooked up to some massive energy draining machine from The Matrix should be of no concern to you either!
Right, but if I were claiming that I can tell the difference between Neo and Agent Smith and you asked me, how do you know if Neo's not just Agent Smith fuckin' with you, and I'm all like well the Matrix says Neo's Neo and Agent Smith's Agent Smith, this didn't go to any length to distinguish the two characters.
This is the problem.
This is the problem.
Now if you actually agree with this and are legitimately curious about Christianity, I'm happy to retract my accusation. =)
Yeah, I want to know how you attribute the effects you believe are of god's doing exclusively to god, and, if it's the case there is another entity that's made by god, really powerful, eager to go against god, and wont to play tricks on people, how do you exclude the devil's involvement?
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@Logical-Master
Any conclusion drawn on the premise that X cannot proven (i.e. how do you know the devil didn't write the the Bible to deceive you?) is literally an appeal to ignorance.
What conclusion did I draw with the OP questions?
How are questions logical fallacies, when you just admitted here that one needs to conclude something?
Here's what I asked...direct me to the conclusion:
"Can you explain how you know when things have been done by god and when things have been done by the devil who has masterfully disguised something to look like it was done by god?"
Where's the conclusion?
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@David
There is no such thing as the devil or fallen angels. Satan in Hebrew means "opposer" or "accuser." The first time the word Satan appears in the Bible is Numbers 22:22כבוַיִּֽחַר־אַ֣ף אֱלֹהִים֘ כִּֽי־הוֹלֵ֣ךְ הוּא֒ וַיִּתְיַצֵּ֞ב מַלְאַ֧ךְ יְהֹוָ֛ה בַּדֶּ֖רֶךְ לְשָׂטָ֣ן ל֑וֹ וְהוּא֙ רֹכֵ֣ב עַל־אֲתֹנ֔וֹ וּשְׁנֵ֥י נְעָרָ֖יו עִמּֽוֹ:God's wrath flared because he was going, and an angel of the Lord stationed himself on the road to thwart (satan) him, and he was riding on his she-donkey, and his two servants were with him.
This was the best answer so far, and effectively shows how to tell the difference between god and the devil...there is no devil.
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@Logical-Master
Really, how are the questions in the OP appeals to ignorance?
This should be good.
This should be good.
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@Logical-Master
Hence why you can't respond like all of the other theists...go write another biased RFD
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@PGA2.0
I get a kick out of when an atheist who denies God criticizes the same God for being unfair. There seems to be a contradiction there. The same person who denies His existence grants it for the purpose of calling Him names.
I get a kick out of when someone without an actual response to posed questions conflates a hypothetical question for insults.
Besides inferior opinions, do you have any response to my questions?
If god does exist, how do you tell him apart from the devil?
Besides inferior opinions, do you have any response to my questions?
If god does exist, how do you tell him apart from the devil?
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@PGA2.0
Any good lawyer would.
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@IlDiavolo
Something tells me not to trust you...
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@disgusted
Each of them in conjunction with Superman, Batman and Wonderwoman collaborate to ensure absolutely everything happens. If something happens you can bet it's the result of the actions of those five.
This actually makes perfect sense.
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@Tradesecret
Ok, so basically you're telling me that you know the difference between god and satan, because the bible says god is eternal and good and that satan is finite and bad, right?
Ok, follow me here.
How do you know that the bible itself, the commands it gives you, and the descriptions of what god is weren't all constructed by the devil?
How do you know what the bible says isn't just the ramblings of the devil?
If you can't know whether or not the devil is tricking you with this book, then it could be that all of the reasons you've provided me for why god is different than satan are only substantiated by the devil.
Do you understand that consequence?
Explain to me how one would feel to learn their holy book was written by its antithesis.
Explain to me how one would feel to learn their holy book was written by its antithesis.
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@Tradesecret
If the devil made the world then why did God claim to make the world?
I never said the devil made the world, I said how do you know when god claimed to make the world that it wasn't the devil deceiving you?
God is not a liar. Yet nowhere do we read in the bible that Satan claimed to have made the world. God does make the claim
Ok, how do you know that this god is not actually the devil deceiving you...of course the devil's not gonna put that secret in the bible, right?
You seem to be discussing or talking about a god and a devil that is something else than that represented in the bible.
Nope, they're the ones I'm talking about, and you've yet to tell me the difference between the two.
You said god claimed to make the world and the devil didn't and that's how you know the difference...does that make sense to you?
You said god claimed to make the world and the devil didn't and that's how you know the difference...does that make sense to you?
I am talking about how God and the devil are described in the Bible.
And given how they are described, how do you tell the difference?
Did God have the foreknowledge that Satan would be evil? I say the bible says yes.
God's a dick for creating evil and refusing to rid the world of evil even though it's all his fucking fault.
Why did he not stop it? I don't know the answer to that question - nor do I actually need to have an answer. what I do know is that God made all things including Satan.
How do you know satan didn't make god?
I don't have time to read all of your posts.
You're the one writing paragraphs, bro.
The bible tells me that God and the Satan are two quite different entities.
Sounds like something the devil posing as god would want you to think.
I had asked why is god merciful to satan...
I don't know the answer to your question.
Yep, most people don't.
How do you know that god even has the ability to destroy the devil whom he knew the future of before creating?
Because the God of the bible says he does. He will be thrown in to a pit of fire.
Sounds like something the devil would say.
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@EtrnlVw
Wow, where to start here...
there are many beings that exist outside this realm and planet
Such as?
but again, the devil is not responsible for anyone's downfall that is not how creation operates
And you know how "creation operates" because...?
I'm not supporting the notion that some entity runs around tricking people, that is silly.
Right, but "lower world spirit vessels" is just plain reasonable.
We can certainly be conduits for other spiritual beings if we allow that
Explain what a spirit is, and then explain how using the word "conduit" to mean "human body" is in any way relevant.
but generally speaking spirit beings have to be given access and the motives of the individual have to reflect both parties. In other words beings with similar motives can use each other but it is mutual in intentions and desires/actions
Nothing in this makes sense, and it's not because you're writing at some higher level, it's because this is a bunch of rubbish.
Access to the motives of the individual?
WTF are you talking about?
Access to the motives of the individual?
WTF are you talking about?
If the devil were to disguise his position maybe we wouldn't know...until the final outcome anyways.
Which would mean an even worse final outcome, given we didn't follow the right entity.
Are you saying you've been tricked by the Devil?
No, I'm pointing out one would have no idea if they were tricked by the devil, and what's worse is that they may be following the devil while thinking they're following god; they thinking they're doing "positive" but really they're just exacerbating the "negative."
But again, this idea that there is some renegade devil that causes all evil is very immature TBH and is not based on reality.
Yeah, and the idea that there are lower worlds with spirit conduits and divine sparks is very immature TBH.
Those things are not based on reality.
Those things are not based on reality.
No need to get insulting I have no intentions of doing that so let's keep this clean.
Did I bring up the word "immature" or did you?
How was I insulting?
You called my idea immature and I called your idea immature, yet when I did it it was insulting?
Explain this double standard.
How was I insulting?
You called my idea immature and I called your idea immature, yet when I did it it was insulting?
Explain this double standard.
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To answer your question more literal, if there was a "devil" masterfully disguising a negative action maybe we wouldn't know, does it really matter?
Yeah, because if you've been living your life trying to follow the words of god and all you've really been doing is following god's antithesis, then you've wasted your life following the devil instead of following god.
If the devil were to disguise his position maybe we wouldn't know...until the final outcome anyways.
That would suck, given that god's word is supposed to be a salvation for your life and not a bait and switch by satan.
But again, this idea that there is some renegade devil that causes all evil is very immature TBH and is not based on reality.
Immature like soul vessels or immature like telling me the ego can be destroyed by a divine spark?
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Click the link and find out...and place an easy vote.
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@Stephen
Yeah, so I want to see how a theist wriggles out of this.Which leaves us with an extremely embarrassing question for the theist doesn't it?
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