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@keithprosser
I am not necessarily opposed to the sun being a god, but it complicates the definition of an atheist! We do owe our existence to the sun and it certainly has the power to destroy us. If worshipping and praising the sun had any effect on it I'd worship and praise it because I don't want it to go out! But that isn't how the sun works - the sun runs on atomic fusion, not the prayers of acolytes and the sun doesn't are about the sex of who I sleep with.The sun is a very good god - it gives without demanding anything from us. But it's not the 'sort of god' atheists are against. It is those gods that are supposed to have some sort of consciousness atheist can't accept.
Wow, solid response, nicely said.
Praise Hydrogen...and Helium.
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@keithprosser
Well, I'm an atheist but I don't deny the sun exists!I am sure the sun exists, but I am also sure it doesn't hear or answer prayers for instance.
Yeah, I get that, but why does a god have to answer prayers to be a "proper" god?
I'm challenging your idea of a proper god, even though we're both atheists (well, I'm a heliolater).
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@keithprosser
The sun does fulfil at least some of the function expected of a god, but perhaps not enough of them to be a proper god! I'm thinking that the sun doesn't actually respond to prayers or reward good deeds and punish bad ones for instance.
Why does a "proper" god have to respond to prayers?
Why can't a superhuman being with powers over nature and human fortunes suffice for a proper god?
Why can't a superhuman being with powers over nature and human fortunes suffice for a proper god?
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@Goldtop
Very much so.
Yeah, we Heliolaters are pretty compelling...I kinda hoped you would say "That's not a real god" so I could be all like "oh so there is a "real" god now?" and you could be all like "damn."
But no dice.
Heliolatry is the right religion; who knew?
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@Goldtop
Based on the definition of "Evidence", what compelling evidence can you offer for the likelihood of God's existence?Contrary to that, what compelling evidence can you offer for the likelihood of God's non-existence?
God, for me at least, is a superhuman being worshiped for having power over nature and human fortunes.
This is demonstrably true, and here is some compelling evidence.
1. God played a crucial role in the origin of life on earth.
Researchers have used CH4, C2H6, NH3, H2S and *UV rays,* and yielded alanine, glycine, serine, glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and cystine which are the building blocks of life.
2. God controls our days and nights.
Our day-night cycle is completely based around god, to the extent that we schedule our events around god and even realize time using god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time
Our day-night cycle is completely based around god, to the extent that we schedule our events around god and even realize time using god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time
3. God maintains our habitable position in the universe.
God's massive gravity actually holds earth in a position in the universe that is habitable for life.
God's massive gravity actually holds earth in a position in the universe that is habitable for life.
4. God indirectly or directly provides all metabolizable energy to every organism on earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_chain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_chain
Compelling?
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@Outplayz
spacetime had an orgin... but, we aren't even really sure about that.
The inverse of the Hubble constant takes you back to zero spacetime.
We are sure about spacetime having an origin down to the energy density of the first bit of spacetime.
What of our universe is the result of another universe's black hole.
Then the multiverse theory is correct?
It is "our spacetime" that had an origin, but we don't know if it was around before the big bang. I am presupposing that it has always been.
Our spacetime was not around "before" the big bang, the big bang is marked by the origin of space with energy density.
"Before" or precedence is a temporal concept, so when there was no spacetime there were no temporal concepts like before or precedence.
You dismissed this earlier, but this is the flaw in your whole idea, that sans time there is no before or preceding creator of whatever it is that you are postulating.
I don't see how a god can exist without time...
Now really focus here.
You're claiming that god is contingent on something and that something is time.
Why isn't time your god's god?
life is the manifestation of an eternal type mind
What?
So much life has no mind at all.
Can you demonstrate a mind WITHOUT a brain or neurons?
Sans this demonstration, you asserting this is wildly ridiculous.
It is a spiritual hypothesis to how life manifests.
The problem is that nothing in life indicates a spirit.
Nothing.
So attempting to approach how life comes about spiritually is like trying to figure out how a tumor came about via a voodoo doll.
Way off.
i mean a thinking, conscious, intelligent, etc entity.
Why would a god have to be intelligent or conscious?
I made a point earlier that since you think everything is contingent on the existence of time that time is in fact the god you're ultimately postulating and it is not conscious or intelligent.
Why are you arbitrarily adding such a human/higher order mammalian construct like intelligence or consciousness to a god?
This will get to the root of your wild god belief.
I am presupposing that it has always been infinite.
Why?
What, if anything, indicates that to you?
No personal credulity fallacies please.
Before the big bang was another universe,
Can you explain what before means without using temporal concepts intrinsic in our spacetime?
If you can, you'll be the first.
. the sun and other objects that can't think, etc... don't fit into my definition of "god(s)."
Why?
Because they actually exist?
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@Outplayz
Time, space, energy, etc., that are the cause of this god's manifestation.
If time, space, energy, etc. caused "this god's" manifestation, then
1. Why aren't time, space, energy, etc. god?
2. Spacetime and energy had an origin, so why is god necessary here?
I know others say no time, etc...
Yeah if there's no time then there's no temporal series of events like causation or creation.
No time, no precedence, no determining the agent of causation.
but, i will use the platform i find most logical. If these "forces" are eternal, or infinite
Which they both are demonstrably not.
... then, all it would take is a certain arrangement of them to manifest an incorporeal intelligence which then evolves and become something like a god.
Yeah, but if you've already got the forces and they're self-arranging, then why the god?
You're just adding in god.
Time and space being infinite is the platform.
If we ignore cosmology, astronomy, astrophysics, and quantum mechanics, sure...
Energy, etc. (i say etc bc there can be other material that we aren't aware of)
Like what?
; this arranges in such a way to create a mind.
If self arranging, then why the mind?
The mind is born and has been evolving and growing for eons. Therefore, all of this being the cause to this immortal consciousness and/or gods' manifestation.
Why aren't the self arranging forces more godly than this god you arbitrarily manifested?
I don't think it is far fetched for me to imagine such a platform since from what it looks like... there is infinite space and time.
Spacetime may expand infinitely however, it had a clear origin.
If that isn't true, then i am wrong... however, i don't think anyone can argue against it
You are wrong and I just argued against it.
and furthermore, argue that it isn't what most likely is going on.
Spacetime had an origin and no mind is needed with self arranging forces and energy.
The mind is a construct of the human brain or at the very least a construct of neural substrates and neuroanatomical components.
The mind is contingent on brains or the very least neuronal substrates.
Therefore, i think my conjecture is the best answer to who created god
No, your conjecture is basically postulating another god that created "this god", and this other god would just be self-arranging forces and energy.
... time, space, energy... the infinite platforms being the cause of this "minds" manifestation. You can extend this type of logic to any god.
Hmmm.
The god of Heliolatry is the sun,
Infinite platforms caused its mind,
The sun has a mind.
Doesn't work.
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@janesix
Dawkins wrote: “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose"
Yeah, being that we are cerebral animals, we necessarily seek patterns and as a result we tend to design things that represent and employ these patterns, so when we encounter something that contains the same types of patterns we've sought and employed, we associate what we have encountered with what we have designed.
We see triangles and assume a triangle maker because we're self-centered triangles makers.
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