Mopac

What can be more deluded than lack of belief, or even worse yet, outright denial of The Ultimate Reality?

Atheists are by nature deluded.

The Ultimate Reality exists.

Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

Anyone who says otherwise and does know what they are talking about is CRAZY.

A mother who actually takes care of her kids doesn't have to think about her career. Her career is being a good mother.

Fyi there is nothing war like about Orthodox Christianity.

There is certainly a historical precedent of Orthodox Christians getting killed by others though. Yes, including the Crusading Roman Catholics and Jihading Muslims.

And it hardly matters what these heretic churches do in the name of Jesus any more than it matters what these Jihading Muslims do in the name of God. Orthodoxy is the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church. It is THE Christian Church. 

Unfortunitely, Orthodox Christians tend to get persecuted for every evil commited by anyone else in the name of Jesus. Just ain't fair.

Over 20 million Orthodox Christians martyred in the last century.

The letter kills, the spirit gives life.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Is it the pronouncement that is important or the essence?

Well, I just told yahs.

Not really.

I've heard of them. Not particularly interested.

Gnostics aren't really that consistent in their beliefs.

Satanism is worshipping the self.

Gnosticism is faith in one's own understanding above all else.

Very related, not really the same thing.

The gnostics did view the old testament God as evil though.

I say that of course, with the disclaimer that The God of both testaments of the bible is the same God.

Yeah, the so called "gnostics".

It is actually one of the more common heresies of today, actually. It's pretty much "I know betterism".

They don't though, they are simply full of pride.

No, Satanism is a very technical theological thing.

Recent manifestations of this such as the aforementioned LaVeyism are actually fairly accurate formulations of how Satanism is understood.

The angel of pride, you know.

What can be a greater manifestation of this than self worship! Take pride in your debauchery and wickedness even!

It's foolishness. But people have been forgiven for worse things. Of course, there is no forgiveness for those who do not want forgiveness. What can I do? Pray that those who have fallen into such a thing snap out of their trance and wake up. They are reducing themselves to dogs and swine. 

Nothing is more obnoxious to those who in their pride take themselves as being god before God than The Truth.

That is why I am a mental midget. Why I am stupid. Why I am a troll who shouldn't be fed. I do not speak of myself, I speak of The Truth. I am the enemy of these wicked people, and they would kill me if they could, just as they have in their own hearts killed The Truth.

Satanism at its essence is making oneself an idol before God.

Now with that understanding, and the eyes to see, satanism is actually very popular and even covertly encouraged by culture today.

Most satanists claim to be atheists. Really though, they take themselves as god. It is reflected in their pride and arbitrariness.

I'm not the one debating with people that reality doesn't exist.

You are clearly the crazy one.

Really, what do you hope to accomplish?

If you ever accomplish anything, it will be the abandoning of your abominable superstition.

The OP, but also new age chakra wigglers.

It is the pillar and ground of The Truth. 

It is the very same church handed down from the apostles in an unbroken lineage.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find another church that emphasizes The Truth so much!

The fact that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth is special knowledge it seems like in protestant churches, but open up a prayer book in an orthodox church and you'll see it on the first page!

We know our God, these other churches don't 

Translation

"Whenever we talk to Mopac, we make ourselves look like idiots. Better find some jobbers and straw men to talk to in order to make ourselves feel smarter. Maybe we can prey on someone who is weaker in faith, and confuse them with our rhetoric and sophistry, because it all falls apart with this guy."

You'd think that eventually the lot of you would develop some sense and abandon your nihilism, but nah. Take the easy route as usual, losers.

That problem disappears entirely when you realize that The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is still here.

The Orthodox Church is it. The evidence is overwhelming. The protestants have no claim to this, and the apostasy of Rome is well documented.

It's obvious enough that at my parish alone there are 3 former protestant preachers who pastored congregations for over 20 years. There is even a retired priest that used to be a Roman Catholic priest.

Sure, if you believe it is a matter of he said, she said, who do you believe you could make that argument. But really, everything points to Orthodoxy as being the real church of Christ.

What brought me there? I used to be a "nondenominational" Christian. I even taught the bible and was very active in not just one, but several churches. What brought me to Orthodoxy? Study. Research. A lot of it. Reading the writings of the church fathers. It is very obvious. The Orthodox Church has got it. The truth is with them.

I could never say that with conviction about any other church. Never could. I can with The Orthodox Church. It's the real deal.

And you can just dismiss it as another claim, but I think if you were to look into it yourself you would find that The Orthodox Church clearly has the most authority.

You don't believe that The Truth tells you anything?

Go ahead and put fun as an idol before God if you want. Seems pretty popular these days. It will ultimately not fulfil you and has no power to save you.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

So do you believe man made everything?

I think even you know that is silly. 

Besides that, we Orthodox do not eat wafers and drink grape juice. That is a Roman Catholic thing, and maybe a practice of one the thousands of other churches that broke away from them. None of these churches are The Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. To be nice, we call them heterodox, but truly, it wouldn't be a stretch to call them heretical churches.

Maybe thanksgiving is not intended to have predictive or explanitory power. Maybe it is something, as I said, to be experienced. Faith without works is dead. Simply intellectualizing everything is like looking at a shadow of the truth rather than experiencing the truth.

The Truth certainly makes a better God than these vain imaginings and false gods.

There is one True God.

Why compromise?

All of creation testifies of God.

Reason certainly helps us discern good from evil. The problem arrises when we take ourselves as the rightful and ultimate judges of these things. Experience reveals that we are wrong or mistaken an awful lot.

No, not pretending to eat the body of Christ at all. Certainly eating it. Certainly drinking the blood. But, you know, that is part of the mystery. You are right though, it is wrong of me to talk about. In fact, when we partake of the eucharist during the liturgy, the choir sings about not speaking of these mysteries! It is likely because of this accusation of cannablism. I am certainly in the wrong here.

That all said, I don't think reducing something to a chemical process removes the mystery of experiencing it.

I wouldn't say logic is bad, but I can see how you can use logic to justify just about anything. 

It is good to be a reasonable person, but reason isn't an end in itself.

Logic certainly shouldn't be taken as an idol before The Truth.

But the point is, we don't pretend to be cannibals.

And the other even bigger point is that in the end, an attitude of gratitude will do much to serve you. God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud. Practicing thanksgiving requires humility.

Man does not live by bread alone, but by The Word that proceeds from God.

Who is The Son of The Trinity? The Word of God.

Everything was created by and through The Word of God.

So when we eat the bread and drink the wine, we are literally eating the body and blood of Jesus Christ as The Word made Flesh.

That sure is a lot of mystery there. It has to be that way.

So recognizing that we rely of The Word of God is how we are thankful. 

Really, every meal should be eucharist. That is why we pray over and bless our food. Keeping God always in our thoughts is how we pray unceasingly. Life really should be eucharist.

And I can certainly say that one of the most life changing decisions I ever made was to make the entire month of November Thanksgiving. I never stopped. Now every day is thanksgiving. I am a great deal better off for it.

A lot of mystery there.

I'll take the compliment.

Is a mystery something to be understood or solved, or is mystery an experience? A priest once told me that it was the later, and I took it as something very profound.

Eucharist means "thanksgiving". It is considered a holy mystery of the orthodox faith. Is thanksgiving something to be solved or understood? No, it really is something to be experienced.

I dispute the definition of God as "fundamental consciousness"

Not because God isn't that, but because God is Ousia, not a quality of being like consciousness.

Oxford uses "Supreme Being"

Merriam-webster uses "Ultimate Reality"

Both of those definitions work in Orthodox Theology.

The atheist has 2 major secret weapons.

1 the straw man. They will always make God something other than The Ultimate Reality, and debate that.

2 invincible ignorance. They will refuse to accept The Truth, because fundamentally, behind all their pretense, atheism is the nihilistic denial of reality itself or even worse, the refusal to accept any reality that isn't arbitrarily determined by themselves.

But what is the main secret weapon against the atheist? The Spirit of Truth, and if you are going to try to grasp God intellectually and debate the God denier on that level, you will be making the error of the scholastics. If it were not for the haughtiness of the scholastics, who considered themselves wiser than the church fathers before them, modern day secularism may not even be a thing.

The Holy Spirit. That is the key.

Without that, you will simply be made a fool of by the atheist, who will use every kind of sophistry and style of rhetoric to sound convincing, the truth being far from them because they don't really believe in truth!

Atheist kryptonite..

"Can you say, The Ultimate Reality exists"?

If they say yes, that is an admission that they believe God exists. If they refuse to acknowledge this is God, well, they are debating a straw man. If they say, "the ultimate reality doesn't exist." It undermines everything they say. "It is the truth that there is no such thing as truth!" Is what they are effectively saying. If they refuse to say, "the ultimate reality exists", it means even they understand how stupid that makes them sound, and so they will do everything they can to wiggle around that and change the subject. But this is their undoing, because they have been exposed as arguing from the vantage point of not believing in truth! That means, they don't even believe in what they themselves are saying!

So atheism towards God is not a valid position, and arguing about someone about whether God has such and such quality is a waste of time as long as they are in denial of God altogether!

You can fling all the insults you want, but no one else has done a better job exposing you atheists for what you really are.

Deceived deceivers trying to drag everyone down into nihilism.

None of your pseudo intellectual bullshit works on me, and I know what you are doing too well to be tricked into arguing on your terms.

Lets keep it to the fundamentals.

None of you atheists can admit that. there is ultimate reality, which means that none of you can admit that anything is real. What that means is that absolutely nothing you build off of this foundation can stand. The lot of you build a house on quicksand.

Foolish posturing of foolish men who in their pride would go so far as to question reality itself in order to justify their own wickedness. 

But there is a way out. It's very simple. Sin no more, repent from your wickedness, and humble yourselves before THE TRUTH.

So you can't say "The Ultimate Reality exists"?

Can you say, "The Ultimate Reality exists"?

Bet you won't.

The One True Reality as it Truly Is.

The Ultimate Reality.

This is not the same thing as a truth, a fact, a contingent existence, or any other transient reality.

Orthodox Christianity is peace and love. It is true religion.

And evil is the furthest thing you would find from a truly pious Orthodox. In fact, you would someone who is truly human. Someone who would not bother you or anyone. The very best you can find in a person even.

So when you say that the only bad Christians are good Christians I can't help but say you have it all mixed up.

Logic ain't got nothing to do with it, madman. I know my God. You don't. 

You want something to argue with. Well, here is your brick wall...

THE TRUTH

Are you going to try and logic away THE TRUTH?

Well, rhetoric and sophistry will only get you so far, madman.

There is nothing enlightened about being a slave to idolatry, which is pretty much what a pagan is. You openly admit you are hedonistic. You are not free or enlightened, you are a slave to the lusts of your flesh. You are not strong, you are weak.

No, I don't.  I do use the dictionary to establish what words mean though. At the very least establish what I mean when I use a word, and show that it is backed by academia.

It is the easiest way to demonstrate the absurdity of denying God. It also exposes denial of God as either a position of ignorance or petulance.

Christians are called to love others, so the idea that only the "bad" ones are good ones seems preposterous to me.

Of course God is the authority ultimately, but I am talking about authority when it comes to the interpreting of scripture.

The Orthodox Church maintains that The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth rests within our church and Church Tradition. We maintain that the faith is the very same faith thst was handed down by the apostles, and we know this because we actually remember our past.

These protestant churches have, at the oldest, maybe a few centuries of history, and they of course forget anything before that because it exposes the things they preach as heresy.

If an Orthodox Christian from 200 ad... 400 ad... 700 ad... 900 ad were to take part in a litergy today, they would recognize what was going on, because the form has always been consistent. The teachings have never changed. It is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church. 

And Orthodox theology is vastly superior to any protestant church, it is like night and day. 

The Orthodox Church not only is the rightful guardian of scripture(they were the ones who compiled the new testament, you know), but they have almost 2000 years of church tradition.

Compare this to the anarchy of protestantism. Who has more authority?

The church has even from the first centuries been anti-abortion. Marriage is definitely between a man and a woman, and only sex within marriage is considered moral. Homosexuality is usually a symptom of idolatry, as is recreational drug use.

No, the church doesn't go around telling people they are going to hell for "breaking the rules". That said, the church isn't going to lie to you and tell you that evil is good and that good is evil. The church is there to heal you. There is no force or coercion involved. You do have freewill. And part of having freewill means that you can choose to reject healing and go on sinning in your pride. However, this isn't really beneficial for you, and it isn't always easy to see this when you are being blinded by your affliction. There is a certain trust involved. We see God as our father and the church is our mother. 

The church doesn't really tell people they are going to hell. We all pretty much understand that God is the rightful judge of these things. 

And we pray for those who persecute us and bless those who curse us. That is at least, the example we are given.

And well, Orthodox Christianity might have been what ended up toppling The Soviet Union, because they had an officially "Scientific Atheist" government, and did everything they could to eradicate God from their country. Millions of martyrs. Christians were second class citizens. They demolished churches, seminaries, slaughtered so many priests, even tried to corrupt the church through infiltration. For 70 years, they did these things to the church. But it didn't work, and it wasn't long after the Soviet Union stopped its persecution that it fell. And good riddance.

And we Orthodox do not believe in revolting against civil authorities. We are innocent, and walk the path of peace. Despite this, you will not find any other church that has been on the receiving end of so much persecution. That is why we are nicknamed the church of martyrs. Over 20 million of us killed in the last century for our beliefs, and despite this, anti-Christian rhetoric is fairly normal. Everytime the heretics do something evil in the name of Christ, we are the ones who seem to get killed for it. Very tragic.

Look how dumbscusted can't say the ultimate reality exists. He is willing to go even this far to deny God. He isn't the only one around here either. 

You don't want to be like them, they are fools.

I hope this reveals something to you about atheism.

Say, "The Ultimate Reality exists".

Yet you can't tell the difference between God and gods, so in your ignorance you still deny ultimate reality when you deny God.

If you believe in ultimate reality, you believe that God exists.

You having a faulty understanding of God doesn't really change this.

You say the material world is the ultimate reality. You are saying the material world is God. I would say that the material world is creation.

You aren't really an atheist though.

And that should be good news for you, because there is nothing insightfult about making an identity of one's inability to admit that ultimate reality exists.

Hesychasm, the method of Orthodox Christians...

Very different than

Scholasticism, the method of Latin Papalism and the west for a good chunk of the last 1000 years.

How do you see God? By purifying the heart, not through vain intellectualism.

And well, at least with those with eyes to see, the fruit of this method is clear. The Latin church has fractured into over 23,000 denominations, the church is more secular than ever, struggling to remain relevent as they compromise more and more tradition.

Really, the state of what passes for Christianity in Roman Catholic and Protestant circles is shameful.

I would love to see a return to the real church. There is something wrong, and it is plain for all to see. I'm especially going to give a shout out to you American protestants. The church is really tiny in America. If you find it encouraging, there are at least 3 protestant pastors who lead congregations for more than a couple decades who ended up becoming Orthodox! It is very different than what you are used to, but have an attitude of charity and it will hopefully all make sense eventually. It's the real church.

Get on board, cuz the anarchistic and increasingly secular protestant church is a sinking ship. 

Definition of provisional

"serving for the time being : temporary"

Yes, I understand that you don't actually believe in absolute truth.

Which, as I have maintained, really means that you don't really believe in truth. Reality is whatever you can get away with.

There is nothing vague about the definition.

Reality As it Truly Is exists.

To deny this is idiotic and self defeating.

Atheism is at best uncertainty that there is a reality as it truly is, and at its most nonsensical denial of there being a reality as it truly is.

Either way, atheism is an invalid position.

And Aquinas was probably the king of the Scholastics.

And as I said, Orthodoxy rejected scholasticism. Why not? The Latins don't even buy into it anymore, and scholasticism has a great deal. to do with why the west went in a secular direction.

The scholastics in their haughtiness thought they were philosophically more advanced than the church fathers. 

Add that to the lists of Roman Catholic fumbles.

Did I mention they were excommunicated by us?

Maybe you should take that in context with your inability to admit that truth exists.