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@vagabond
The Ultimate Reality is God whether or not you admit it or not.
This is my God. This is your God. There is nothing you can do to undermine this.
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@vagabond
Never claimed to be the arbiter.
What inevitably happens to a society overrun by orphans and disease? How is "gettin' some" destructive towards the way people treat eachother? It warps hearts and minds.
No, I'm not the arbiter, and a society that forgets sexual immorality will be effected, whether the perverts and deviants like to believe so or not.
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@vagabond
Except God is not a god, God is The Truth, and The Truth predates humans.
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@vagabond
If The Truth doesn't live in my imagination, and The Truth is my God, what does that say about your claim?
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@vagabond
The Truth only exists in my imagination you say? Are you saying that you don't believe The Truth exists?
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I can already tell you that a lot of meaning will be lost.
The thematic connection between concepts such as "bread" as an example, is lost in interpretive translations such as "the message" when they translate "give us this day our daily bread" into "3 square meals" or something to that effect.
Another problem with all of this is that it doesn't just effect the meaning in the translation, but it is an assault on thousands of years worth of commentary.
As much as I personally like e-prime, and have read several of Korzybski's books( I like to point him out to people who think the Polish are dumb, because he was really quite brilliant)I am much more wary about actually altering language in this fashion.
Think in e-prime? Sure. Talk in e-prime? Sure. Changing all of language to conform to e-prime? This I have a problem with. It seems like far too big of a leap to be hasty about.
But can theology be discussed in e-prime? Certainly, and if you are actually interested in doing this, I would be more than happy to.
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@mookestink
There is actually an e prime bible.
"I proclaim Myself as the one who exists Eternally"
Is how what normally gets translated to " I Am That I Am" is interpreted.
So yes, there is an e prime bible based off of the NASB translation.
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@drafterman
You certianly have a right to be willfully ignorant
And so you fulfill the scripture,
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
I pray for the softening of your heart.
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@Outplayz
@SkepticalOne
I didn't say that respected theologians didn't use gender pronouns, I said that they don't assign God a gender.
I understand calling God "He" or "Father" might give this impression, but even the ones who do this acknowledge that God is not a male or female.
I am not a pantheist. A pantheist believes the universe is God. I do not believe the universe is God.
If we were to use merriam webster, the universe is defined as...
"the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated"
This makes the universe contingent on observation and postulation. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is not contingent on observation or postulation.
The universe is creation. Pantheism is a form of paganism. As I said, what I believe is closer to panentheism than pantheism, but I identify as a monotheist.
As to why I don't discard the label? Because I am describing the monotheist position, which you claim to understand but I don't believe you actually do.
The monotheist position is that God is The Supreme Being. Everything else follows from this understanding that God is The Truth.
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I think the media is incredibly racist. I also think that lines of race are pushed on to the population.
If discrimination based on race is illegal, why do they colllect demographic information about race?
It's some king of eugenicist conspiracy, that is what I think.
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@drafterman
Because that is historically what the concept means, what it still means, and the idea that the God deniers rejection of reality even deserves respect is ludicrous. For the sake of world peace, at least agree on this one thing.
The only thing denying God does is cause friction and strife. For what? Senseless pride?
It is good to battle superstition. It is good to reject false beliefs. It is good to debate for the sake of getting closer to The Truth.
What is not good is denying The Truth, and when you deny God that is exactly what you are doing. It doesn't matter if that isn't in your heart, this is what your words mean.
See, you aren't even really an atheist. Who is? A lot of people in padded rooms, I'm sure.
So if you are really going to stand for Truth, don't reject God. It ultimately is not in your best interest. It also doesn't translate very well cross culturally.
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@SkepticalOne
No, I do not worship the universe as God.
Panentheist might be more accurate, but I identify as a Monotheist.
I would not call God an "it" any more than I would call The Truth an "it"
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@Outplayz
@SkepticalOne
There is no respected theologian alive or dead who believes that God is a "he" or a "she".
Do you think Truth has a gender?
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@SkepticalOne
In actuality, you are the one who is arbitrarily rejecting the meaning of the concept.
You are arguing as if I'm just making this stuff up. No, I'm not. Pardon me if that makes you wrong. There is no shame in being wrong. There is shame in persisting in your error out of pride.
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@SkepticalOne
Being real are not intrinsic to the meaning of those words.
Being real is the defining characteristic of God. Thats what Ultimate Reality means. Thats what Supreme Being means.
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Are catholics actually catholic?
Who are catholics?
Eastern Church? Roman Church? Protestants who claim to believe in the catholic church?
Catholic means "universal". Church means "congregation".
So what is the universal congregation?
Maybe, and here is just a thought... maybe the real catholic church is not a man made institution that claims to be catholic.
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By definition God is real because God is....
The Truth
The Supreme Being
The Ultimate Reality.
Being real is intrinsic to every one of these definitions, so if your conception of God is not real, that doesn't disprove God that disproves your conception of God.
Meanwhile, the atheist yells through a megaphone on the street corner... "There is no truth! The truth is a lie! Prove to me it is true that there is such a thing as truth! I believe in reason!"
Of course, anyone with any real sense and a love of reason can see this is utter madness and complete folly. I would rather see the atheist turn away from their folly than to be consumed by their hatred and delusion.
As they crucify the one who saves them, that one says, "Forgive them, they know not what they are doing."
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@drafterman
Because this is a definition.
It isn't....
"Everything I think God means or attach to God or even statements about God are Truth"
I'm not talking about conceptions about The Truth, I am talking quite literally, not figuratively, not metaphorically, about The Truth.
The Truth is God.
To say, "God is an apple" is not the same thing as "God is The Truth".
What I am saying is only nonsensical to you because you haven't yet accepted what God is.
You have a particular idea in your head about what God is and what God means, but I am telling you that these preconceived ideas are going to get in the way.
So throwing aside religion, culture, traditions and the like for a moment... The one thing that must first be absolutely accepted as fact is that God literally is The Truth. That is God.
And there are many different religions who will say all sorts of things about The Truth, but The Truth is, and it is what it is.
Understanding that this is what God means, realize that the atheist is denying this True God alongside all of the other false gods. The only way to make atheism true in this case, is to make God into something other than what God is. All atheist arguments are contingent on ignoring the reality of this One God.
Believing God does not imply believing anything other than The Truth exists. So you may not identify as a Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu, etc. But you can still believe with a certainty that God exists. Supreme Being literally means that existence is a necessary quality of God because that is what the word being means.
So really, the only thing I am trying to tell you is that The Truth is God, and this is what educated people believe. Educated people are not masochistic enough to debate the existence of truth with people who say there is no truth. I am on a fools mission for loves sake. Otherwise, what is the point? I may have something to offer here, I have unique gifts. I pray my mission isn't in vain.
So it is absolutely necessary that it is understood that when I say "God", this means "The Ultimate Reality".
Otherwise, we aren't talking about the same thing. If you believe The Ultimate Reality exists, you already believe in God whether or not you know to call God by name.
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@drafterman
Well, before I can really tellnyou anything else, you must first be open to the possibility that you are wrong.
In fact, you are very wrong. What is happening here is, I am telling you what I believe and you are telling me I believe something else.
You are way off the mark, and I'm not capable of sifting through all that, especially when you can't even accept a definition.
If I am talking about The Truth, and say something that isn't implied by that, you could certainly debate over that. But one thing that absolutely is not up for debate is the identity of God as being The Truth.
Otherwise, you are not talking about God you are talking about a god. The God I believe in is The Supreme Being.
If you attribute false things to God, by definition these are not attributes of God who is The Truth.
So where can I go? We can argue scripture all day to what end? So you can try to trap me in my words and then discredit everything true I am telling you? It's a fools game that I am not interested in, especially when you don't believe.
I am talking about a tree and you keep insisting that I am talking about a rock. We aren't going to get anywhere like this.
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@drafterman
You don't really understand the subject matter, but you aren't going to believe me because you already think you know.
So there is nothing I can teach you. You, after all, think you know better than me when it comes to this subject.
The Truth is God, that is literally what is meant by the term "God". If you can't accept this basic premise, you aren't going to get rid of your superstitions.
You also aren't going to understand what I believe.
So keep on attacking fairy tales. No argument stands against God.
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@drafterman
There is nothing about saying "The Truth is God" that implies any of the discrepancies you have.
It sounds to me like you are superstitious.
You perhaps have a lot of unnecessary baggage surrounding the concept of "God".
Maybe you should stop attaching things you believe are untrue to The Truth.
And then realize that when you talk about The Truth, that is what the word "God" means. Not everything you think God means is The Truth.
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@drafterman
Believing what I'm saying isn't the same as believing me.
I'm not telling you to believe me, I'm telling you to believe The Truth.
See, faith in God is not the same as people or even what people say about God. It is faith in The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
Do you not believe me when I say that this is how theologians understand God? For thousands of years? Are you going to refute the words of an astronomer because you heard different and less true things from a few people who read an elementary astronomy book?
Can you really think of anything greater and more worthy to be called God than The Supreme and Ultimate Reality? There is nothing, and whether or not you believe, this is The God I believe in. You already admit that my God exists, yet you refuse to acknowledge God as God.
In doing so, are you going to fulfill the scripture that says,
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
Or are you going admit the evident truth that there is none greater, none more worthy to be called God?
This is what I believe, and I do not stand alone. There is a cloud of witnesses to back me up stretching back to the beginning from every corner of the world.
There is nothing innovative about what I am telling you. I am presenting you the gate to True Religion. Believe because it is good.
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@drafterman
Of course you believe that The Truth exists.
So you recognize God.
I am a theist, and I am telling you that this is what God means. Go by what I'm saying. Maybe the others you have heard don't know what they are talking about, or maybe you haven't made the connection yet. I don't know
What I do know is that The Truth is God and if you believe The Truth, you already recognize God even if you don't yet acknowledge God as being God.
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@drafterman
Look, that is what God means. If you don't believe me, there are scriptures, there is thousands of years of theological writings, there are the two most well reputed English dictionaries in acadamia.
You are letting people who don't believe that there is truth to define your language for you. Think about that.
No better place to look than the most influential theologian in western thought, Saint Augustine. Throughout every single one of his books he makes the identity of God very clear.
The Truth is the God I believe in. It is the God I worship. You want my God to be less so that it justifies your patently ridiculous belief that my God isn't real. If you think my God isn't real, then that isn't the God I believe in, because my God Is Real.
The Truth sets you free, not the bowing down to vain idols and fabrications.
Believe me when I say, The Truth is God, and if you don't believe me, believe what I am saying because it is the evident truth that there is nothing else worthy to be called God than The Supreme And Ultimate Reality!
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@vagabond
@drafterman
The Truth means "The Ultimate Reality".
You know, the way things actually are.
If you believe there is reality or truth at all, God is what makes these things realities and truth. God is The Foundational Reality. Eternal. Always was, always is.
See, truths and realities are relative. They are true for a time in relation to something else. They come, they go, they are not eternal. The Truth is always what it is.
That is what God means, and it is not a created thing. If your conception of God makes God a created thing, you are not actually looking at God, but something else. An essential quality of God is that God is uncreated. Another essential quality of God is that God exists.
Not only is God true regardless of what anyone says or what academics think about it, but the theologians or academics themselves understand God in this way.
All atheist arguments are contingent on redefining God to be something other than what God is. Monotheists have been making the same arguments against little g "gods" for thousands of years. Early Christians were accused of being atheists.
But while an atheist deludes themselves into thinking they have no gods, the monotheidt acknowledges The One True God. That is, The Truth Itself.
If you don't believe The Truth, you are adopting a foolish and self defeating position. It also makes you as nonsensical as the strawman gods you refute.
To say, "There is no God" is to say, "It is the truth that there is no such thing as truth".
To say, "Prove to me that God exists" is to say, "Prove to me that it is true that there is such a thing as truth."
To say, "I don't know if there is a God" is to admit one has doubts, and if you have doubts you at least know it is true you have doubts. There is no truth unless The Truth exists.
So everyone knows deep down that God exists.
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@drafterman
Do you know what is meant by "The Truth"? Could you explain your understanding of that concept?
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@mookestink
There is no issue talking about God in e-prime, the problem is that if you were to replace English with e-prime it would make thousands of years of writing in all languages unintelligible and untranslatable.
With E-prime, you can't say anything is anything else.
I can say that in the context of theology, God refers to The Truth without a problem. But the ancient languages that scripture is based on use the is of identity quite a bit. How do you translate this? You can't without compromising meaning, or it doesn't seem so immediately clear to me that this isn't the case.
It seems to me that this would make scripture less intelligible, leading to further ambiguity. But to at least give it a go...
How do you say something like, The Lord is my fortress? I find my fortress in the Lord.
The Lord is my healer. My healing comes from The Lord.
I am The way, the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me.
How would you translate that into e-prime?
The Father can only be reached through The Way, The Truth, and The Life,
Oddly enough, probably not that far from the intended meaning, but is something is still lost in translation?
What about when they asked for Jesus to arrest him, and he said "I Am"?
You can't even say "I Am" in e-prime, can you?
But certainly, God can be discussed in e-prime, as well as theology. The problem comes in translating texts that make use of the is of identity.
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@drafterman
What matters is that you recognize God is The Truth, and to love God with everything. Chase after highest Truth. That is what is important.
Otherwise, what hope is there for the illiterate?
But if you love God, it will make you a more honest person, it will remove the wicked works in your mind that hold you back, it will make you a more competent person, give you sincere humility, make loving others easier, guide you into happiness, and give peace even in trying circumstances.
It's about loving Truth, and forgiving others who have fallen short just as God has forgiven you for falling short.
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@drafterman
Sexual revolution is not the root of it. Turning away from God, that is The Truth, which leads to chasing after vanities, widespread decadence, neglect of the poor, and doing that which is abominable.
All these things are signs that a society has turned away from God and in the stage of decline. Fat on the abundance of bread, not strengthening the hand of the poor, and making life about satisfying the lusts of the mind and flesh.
So no, rampant sexual immorality is a symptom, not a cause.
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@drafterman
There are a lot of reasons to care. It could be as simple as curiosity. It could be because you believe something about it.
There is no easy answer to this question, and reading the bible does not guarantee that you will get anything it is trying to say. There are a lot of bible thumpers with pretty strange beliefs.
But the letters to the church do a pretty good job of explaining the faith. Romans is pretty thorough. It might be a good idea to study with a church
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@drafterman
Exclusively within the covenant of godly marriage. Not adultury, not fornication, not sodomy.
This of course, is very much at odds with a post "sexual revolution" culture, but it is the right way of doing it. Nowadays, people don't really have a good understanding of what sexual immorality is... but widespread sexual immorality leads to the multiplication of orphans, disease, self centered and unhealthy attitudes towards relationship, and all manner of evil that leads to the destruction of a free society and the introduction of tyranny.
Sexual immorality doesn't come from love. If you love someone, put a ring on them. Marriage works when both partners love God more than they love eachother, and this love of God is what allows a couple to be married for 60 years and still have romantic feelings towards one another.
The relationship of a man towards his wife is to be like Christ towards the church, and the love of a woman towards their husband like the church towards Christ.
Mercy, truth, love, service, self sacrifice. It works when people are guided by something other than lust and vanity.
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" Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Faith in God is faith in The Truth, not created things. These are quotations from the bible, which is a created thing.
The testimony of the bible is to have faith in God, The Truth. That is why the bible is used, not because it is an idol before God, who is The Truth.
And the bible will reveal the things in you that keep you from being completely honest about loving The Truth.
But not everyone knows how to read the bible. I would say that the most useful books for the initiates are the letters written to the church. There is something there for wherever you are at in your spiritual development, but they maintain their usefulness even to someone who has been reading them their whole life.
The faith is very simple though. Love God, who is The Truth, and be charitable to one another with sincerity. The scriptures are intended to direct the heart in this manner.
So make no mistake, there are many "gods", but there is only One True God, and all things come from that God, because if something exists it must exist in truth, and The Truth is God.
So when I say God, I am saying "The Truth", and what is meant by "The Truth" is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. This is the name and identity of God, and The Truth is what sets you free. God is the savior of all.
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@vagabond
The Truth has always been, will always be, and exposes these little gods for what they are, vanities and the creations of men who come, go. They are transient. These little gods were created at a time and will be forgotten at a time.
You clearly don't know my God. My God is The Truth.
Are you saying that The Truth is only 3000 years old?
You clearly don't know my God.
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@vagabond
No, it really isn't. This is the argument I posted in my last debate that utterly refutes the idea that I am making this up...
Oxford defines God as...
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
Merriam Webster defines God as...
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality
To quote a father of the catholic/orthodox tradition and canonized saint... Augustine of Hippo...
"Where I found truth, there found I my God, who is the truth itself"
Augustine repeats in no uncertain terms throughout his vast corpus of works that The Truth is God.
Also in the Christian protestant tradition Herman Bavinck wrote
“God is the truth in its absolute fullness. He, therefore, is the primary, the original truth, the source of all truth, the truth in all truth. He is the ground of the truth – of the true being "
And though these are examples from western academia and Christian traditions, you will find this understanding of God is fairly universal in the various religious traditions of the world. The Abrahamic faiths all recognize The Truth as being God. Even in vedic monotheism, God is understood as ultimate reality.
So to make what I am saying very clear, The Truth is God.
So to say "There is no God" is to say, "It is the truth that there is no such thing as truth!". Clearly self defeating.
To say, "I do not believe in God" or "I don't know if God exists" is to admit that you have doubts. If you have doubts, you know at least one thing is true.. that is, you have doubt. If anything is true at all, it is because The Truth is in it.
Atheism towards God is a self defeating and foolish position to hold on to, as it is fundamentally a denial of truth and reality. I personally don't believe that this is what atheists actually believe. I think most atheists likely do not believe that God exists because they have a superstitious conception of God. They have a conception of God that is not real. However, being real is literally the defining characteristic of God, as God is literally, not metaphorically, The Truth.
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@vagabond
I am not yelling at you, I am typing at you.
Clearly.
And if we were in the same room, face to face, I would not be yelling at you. I do not yell at people.
But I will confess to one error. I was responding to your post as if this was the topic about "yes meaning yes" and consensual sex.
And if you think I would intentionally misconstrue what you are saying, I would ask you to show me a bit more charity than that.
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@vagabond
People did not create The Truth.
The Truth existed before people, and indeed will continue to exist long after people are gone.
No, God is THE Truth
God is The Ultimate Reity
God is The Supreme Being
And Merriam Webster makes this distinction between "God" and "god".
"capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality:"
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@vagabond
I can't tell you what to think, certainly, but I can tell you that sexual immorality and loose attitudes towards sex have obvious effects on society.
The problem posed in the OP is only relevent to fornicators, it is a nonexistent problem to those who have healthy attitudes towards sex.
Whether I am male or female has no elationship to whether or not I am telling you the truth. If a rock could speak to you and say something that was true, would you discredit the truth of what the rock said because it didn't come from a source you like?
You are clearly asking me whether or not I am a woman out of sexism. It's irrelevant.
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@vagabond
The Truth is God.
I'm talking about God. You can't tell I'm being consistent because you haven't yet accepted that God means "ultimate reality".
You are probably confused because you can't tell the difference between claims about God and what the concept actually means.
People say a lot of things about God, and have a lot of opinions about God. These are not the same thing as what God Is.
The Supreme Being is God.
That is what the concept is meant in the context of monotheism. God with a capital "G". In English, god with a lower case "g" is a different word.
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@vagabond
Loose attitudes about sex are the source of the problems stated in the OP. People who do it the right way don't have these issues.
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@vagabond
You are asking that question because you think "traditional conservatism" is somehow male domineering.
The bible says that husbands should love their wives like Christ loved the church. That means with truth, mercy, and self sacrifice.
You could argue that "traditional conservativism" is shackling and oppressive for men too, but I would say a stable family is preferable to having all these orphans running around who don't have the advantage of a good healthy family life.
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The "sexual revolution" has made people blind to the reality of sexual immorality.
Maybe people would be better off if they didn't cheapen sex by making it a form of casual entertainment.
Marriage works if you both love God.
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Women have the most amazing ability to give birth to a child. A woman who doesn't want to raise up a family isn't appreciating the gift she has been given. The gift of womanhood.
Humiliating shackles of conservative traditionalism? Sounds like self centered petulance to me.
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Call me crazy, but I would go so far as to say that believing in race is racism.
I don't think someone who is racist deserves blind hatred. They should be shown charity.
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@vagabond
There is One God, The Truth.
If you say The Truth doesn't exist you undermine your own assertion.
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So...
I identify as Mopac
And God means The Ultimate Reality
There would be a lot of problems translating old texts, especially scripture
I Am That I Am
I am the way, the truth, and the life
How do you translate these things?
The is m
E prime looks suspiciously like a direct attack on theism.. or any ism for that matter...
Newspeak?
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How would you introduce yourself? How would I say, "My name is Mopac?"
How would a dictionary work? How do you give definitions?
It seems needlessly destructive.
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The Truth is God.
Or better yet, to make it more clear, The Ultimate Reality is God. If the reality in question was created it cannot be The Ultimate Reality.
If you see God as a created thing, you are grappling with a most superstitious error.
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Because monotheism is the belief that God is The Truth. The One Uncreated Truth.
The position of the monotheist is that nothing else is worthy of being called God. Polytheists worship acts of nature, kings, videogames, power, and other created things as gods.
These little gods are ultimately unreal and vain. It is better to have faith in The Truth.
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My God is literally The Ultimate Reality.
That being the case, there is no reality that exists outside of my God.
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