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@Ramshutu
Thank you for your input. Is there anything else you feel worth noting about the theory of evolution?
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@Paul
It's kind of hard for me to reconcile the fact that I can't simply jump to the moon with the concept of free will, so I'd say probably not. I can't breathe under water or go too long without sleep either.
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@3RU7AL
Don't stop.
Give up everything for it.
Stick with it. Be transformed.
It's a very personal thing, ones relationship with The Truth.
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@3RU7AL
Exactly what those words mean, and if I am wrong, me being wrong had no bearing on THE TRUTH. Throw me away before you throw away THE TRUTH.
The Truth is not what can be said of it. It is not what can be understood of it. It simply is what it is, and that is not the same as saying "a rock is a rock", because there is a spirit of truth, and a spirit of rock, and to recognize the difference is to see why drinking lava is not the same as drinking water.
So what do I mean by loving The Truth? I mean be sincere, be honest, embrace reality, and pay attention to the things going on in yourself that keep you from doing these things. There is inner motion in loving The Truth.
What is there in loving a rock? It's a fetish, a sick preoccupation. There is nothing good that can come from loving a rock more than The Truth.
Even geologists must love The Truth in order to be effective geologists.
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So intolerent of the intolerant that you never listen to them long enough to see how they aren't really intolerant.
Or you know, start chucking ignorant people into furnaces because they were never told no different.
That is why when you condemn others, you are really condemning yourself because you aren't really any better. The merciless will be shown no mercy.
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Loving a rock with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength will solve all your personal problems, the problems in your family, community, country, and even.... THE WORLD.
The Truth is just another rock in truthless arbitrary atheist land I guess. Nothing good comes from loving truth right? Yet here we are, reaping the benefits of science and technology. Talking to eachother from maybe thousands of miles away from eachother.
Well fellahs, if you think rubbing a stone over your body will better align your energies to the cosmic waves and help you find your navel, GO AHEAD.
But you'd be better off loving THE TRUTH over vanities and worthless things, putting your faith in a rock.
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@secularmerlin
Which student is going to do better in class? Which one is going to do be moved by their love?
The one who loves A ROCK?
The one who loves THE TRUTH?
It is shameful to even ponder this question, it is patently idiotic.
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Witness how those who have put their faith in vain things have become vain themselves, unable to even discern the difference between loving The Truth that can save them, and a worthless stone.
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@disgusted
I grew up in the ghetto where 6 year olds ran around with pocket knives. smoking cigarettes. I never saw a real vegetable until I was grown up. The buses had to change which part of the school they parkked on because of frequent shootings.
I grew up poor. I lived 8 years on the streets to get away from where I grew up because everyone told me it was hopeless and that if you were born there you will die there. Though I live in a place now that isn't like where I come from, and I live very differently,. I still live under the poverty line. I live in a place with 1 bedroom. I am married. It works though. I live simply, and I am happy. So is my spouse. We are in a much nicer place than where I grew up. My work involves allowing the hearing impaired to communicate. I give a sizable chunk of my income to the homeless who I also personally minister to.
I am the lower class, and I am pretty certain I do more to help the disadvantaged than you do, despite the fact that I myself am poor and even have a broken back that puts me in constant pain and keeps me from doing more profitable work involving trades, of which I am actually trained in several. I am a certified electrician even, can't do much about that. My entire life has been hardship, struggle, hopelessness, dealing with discrimination, and despite what seems like everything working against me, I still managed to get where I am today, and the one I thank for that is GOD ALMIGHTY and no one else, not even myself.
I think you are a very mean spirited person. You are certainly playing your role at being disgusted at everything, but it makes you a rather disgusting individual. Maybe you'd be less disgusting if you changed your attitude, and adjusted the way you treat others.
Well, now you know a good use for a lump of coal.
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@Ramshutu
Sounds interesting. If you wouldn't mind, would you for the sake of the discussion provide other systematic and scientific tests of the main evolutionary predictions?
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@secularmerlin
@disgusted
Maybe you both prefer rocks to REALITY.
Well, it should be obvious how loving one with every fiber of your being is different from loving the other. It doesn't take a particularly brilliant person to see the difference, but it does take a fool to see there is no difference.
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@ethang5
You may be on to something there
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@secularmerlin
This is a very undiscerning question.
And an offensively stupid one as well.
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I think causality is a great deal more complicated than anyone can fathom, and the idea of a truly free will among human beings seems to fly in the face of the fact that there is literally an entire universe of causality pressing down on us to make our experiences possible.
If you make a choice, besides the moment effecting your choice, your past effects your choice. The things that happened to you 10 years ago effect your choice. Is it really choice, or illusion of choice?
I must admit that I am inclined to believe in super determinsim.
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@drafterman
No science. Got it.
Ignoring you now. Would rather talk to people who are serious and facilitating the discussion.
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@drafterman
Lines of evidence for evolution include the following.1. The fossil record.2. Genetics (all life uses the same genetic code and molecular processes and related species share many homologous genes)3. Comparative anatomy (related species have similar features)4. Embryology (embryos of related species are often very similar, even when adults look very different)5. The geographic distribution of species6. Direct observation of changes in populations over time in nature7. Direct observations of changes over time in populations in the laboratory in reaction to a vast variety of selective pressures
Expound on any one of these. I suggested we go down the list and start from the fossil record, but since that is proving too difficult to accomplish, I'd say pick any of these things.
It would edify anyone reading this topic to actually see science.
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@drafterman
You have done no such thing, and the proof is that when you respond to this post you will still do no such thing.
Present any acience at all, and ahow how it is scientific. It's very simple. If evolution is really science, it should not be hard to present experimental data that supports it.
If you are going to be worthless, I'm sure someone else will step up while I rightly ignore you.
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@drafterman
So far all I'm getting from you is that you blindly believe what the lab coat wearing priests tell you.
Demonstrate your knowledge or go away. Any fool can say, "read this book".
Edify the topic please.
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@drafterman
Then make it simpler. Show examples of how the scientific method is used to back hypothesis concerning aspects of evolution.
You don't have to do everything. Start with a point at a time. Stronn made a post that outlines some of the. evidences. Pick one and demonstrate the evidence.
Any of it really.
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@ethang5
@EtrnlVw
"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
He isn't really trying to learn. He's going to keep hunking turds at the wall to see what sticks. That's what I think based on how he responds to sound correction.
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@drafterman
You gave me a google answer. I'd rather see you edify the thread personally.
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@3RU7AL
That would certainly be a discussion on religion.
In the context of religion being relationship to God, it helps to know what it is you are relating to. Relationship to a rock is not the same as relation to The Truth.
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@Ramshutu
All life is related. Is that the hypothesis you are refering to?
You would need to test the hypothesis through experimentation, so the next stop would be to formulate an experiment that accurately isolates the variable you are trying to measure. Right?
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@drafterman
I should just respond to everybody by refering them to books they aren't ever going to read.
Ok, if you are so familiar with this website, surely you will be capable of dropping some science here for us.
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@3RU7AL
Yes, so something doesn't have to be known to exist in order to exist.
So I understand how an atheist would dismiss God as the ravings of a madman, not unlike someone arguing for the existence of radio waves in the middle ages.
However, the main difference here is that atheists tend to dismiss God because they don't really even know what it is they are dismissing. It is a position that comes from a fundamental ignorance of the concept. They don't really argue against God, they argue against their superstitions of God and cannot tell the difference.
A lot of atheists will mock theists because they are projecting. The ones who prop up science like some big idol very rarely are actual scientists. They simply believe what they read. They have their priests, their teachers. They are impressed into believing things because of the miracles that are performed to them through technology. They are no better than those they mock, and not only are they usually just as superstitious and sometimes even more so than the ones they mock, but they have literally adopted a position they are too inept to realize actually means "there is no truth, there is no reality". That is what it means to deny God.
Atheism is intellectually empty. Atheists would be better off becoming monotheists and instead debate about the nature of God.
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Omniscience doesn't mean infinite intelligence, it means "all knowledge".
There is a difference. To say that God is omniscient is to state the obvious that all knowledge is contaimed within The Ultimate Reality. As your thoughts do exist in some form, your thoughts are known to God.
The probelm with atheists is still that they don't actually argue against God when they make arguments against God's existence. They argue about their superstitions. They argue against idols.
No one can deny The Ultimate Reality without making themselves into a fool.
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@3RU7AL
I believe that you'll find the word "exists" itself can only apply to verifiable phenomena.
Exist Full Definition from merriam-webster
- 1 a : to have real being whether materialor spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist>b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>
- 2 : to continue to be <racism still exists in society>
- 3 a : to have life or the functions of vitality <we cannot exist without oxygen>b : to live at an inferior level or underadverse circumstances <the hungry
intransitive verb
Nowhere here is being verifiable part of the definition.
You are confusing scientifically existing with existing. For something to exist scientifically, it must be known to exist, because science means knowledge. Something can exist without being known.
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Israel Houghton and The New Breed - You Are Good
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If you have the power to be racist, but can get away with not being called racist for it... isn't that prejudice + power?
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"Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, and said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to beconfectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put themto his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; that we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."
"And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh; And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. "
"ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.
Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you. If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God: but if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was against your fathers.
Now therefore stand and see this great thing, which the LORD will do before your eyes. Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
So Samuel called unto the LORD; and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.
And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.
And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart; And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain. For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way: Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you. But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king."
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So what is the point of all this? One of the many ways that Jesus fulfills the law and the prophets is doing away with the idea of needing a human king. God is the king and only with God is salvation.
Why is Jesus the true king? Because Jesus is God.
Christianity is not worshiping a man as God.
Jesus fulfills the law and the prophets.
Surely there are some Jews who can fathom the mystery of this saying of Jesus...
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
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@Ramshutu
Evolution has been accepted by monotheists hundreds of years before Darwin. The Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun proves this conclusively.
There is absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution that puts into question the existence of God, and the people who believe so are superstitious. Not only that, but I want to make clear that the theory of evolution in no way shape or form excludes the idea that God created everything. In other words, my faith is not threatened by science. That certainly isn't an issue for me.
I think evolution makes a great deal of sense. Making sense does not make something science.
Since this is a science forum, it makes sense that we should talk about whether or not evolution is in fact science. If that can't be demonstrated is it pseudoscience? Or maybe it is still really a hypothesis? Maybe it's partly true or partlfalse? What is it?
I want to see how the scientific method is being followed, and I'm sure someone other than me will benefit.
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Still waiting for science.
I'm sure it's there, but it seems people would rather feed me bull.
Maybe no one here is actually knowledgeable about the science behind evolution. Maybe people around here simply believe what they read.
Well, I'm not going to throw the whole thing out because we've got a lot of pretenders here, but I'd still love to see someone actually show me some scientific methodology being followed.
Surely someone gere can show the science. It shouldn't be that hard.
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@drafterman
Well, the genetic evidence is number 2. Lets do number 1 first.
I am more interested in this being discussed here. Sure, there are tons of textbooks and online resources on this subject. It makes it real easy for someone to defer to another authority and pretend they understand something. I am more interested in this topic being educational.
So we'll get to genetic evidence later on, but for now...
How is the fossil record evidence?
How is the scientific method being followed to show this as evidence? Show the work.
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@Goldtop
Of course I know what the scientific method is, I would like to see how it is being used in relation to the first evidence that was presented as explained by Stronn.
Telling me there is evidence is not the same as demonstrating the evidence and then explaining the scientific process involved to obtain knowledge.
This is an opportunity to demonstrate that evolution is in fact science.
And anyone is free to answer this question, not just goldtop.
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@Goldtop
No, they are not meaningless words. They are meaningless to you because you do not accept God is what God is.
So you aren't even talking about the same thing as me. You have an aversion to the word "God". That is what it looks like to me.
You can't deny my God without being ridiculous.
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@Goldtop
@disgusted
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God. This is the One God I recognize.
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@Goldtop
What is the scientific process that goes into determining how old something is? How does the scientific process play in observing the evolutionary change of species?
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First point of evidence, the fossil record.
Can someone explain the scientific process that demonstrates this as evidence of evolution?
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@disgusted
There is only One God. There cannot be Gods.
You say God doesn't exist but do you believe in truth? Do you believe in reality? Do you believe there is a amway things actually are?
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@disgusted
I agree with you, gods are created by humans. I'm not talking about gods, I am talking to God.
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@Stephen
Well, you don't seem very open to the correct answer to your issue here, so excuse me if I have you wrong. I did not mean to be presumptuous.
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@disgusted
Yet Reality exists, and whatbdo I worship as my God? Reality in the truest sense.
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@Stephen
I like ethang5 am in agreement with what tradesecret says.
There is no contradiction here.
And I am not saying there is a problem with these scriptures. See, you'd be better off reading these scriptures without the goal of trying to disprove them or tearing them apart. You are not going to disprove God by attacking scripture. The bible is not supposed to be an idol before God.
But it certainly is good stuff. I would suggest that you shy away from the gospels for now and maybe read the letters. They better explain the faith, and might even clear up some of your issues... I would suggest maybe not going in with the goal of trying to tear scripture apart. Maybe instead go in with the goal of trying to understand the message.
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Politics are really going to dirty in the future... what with kids being raisedd on the internet. They'll get you for something you said when you were 12.
Drunk high schoolers at a party? Excuse me if clumsily grabbing for some booty seems like something a high schooler would do.
This really isnstupid. It was over 35 years ago.
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@Goldtop
If you really wish to be a scientist, you have to practice the science of the self. If you really love The Truth, make it your God. Love it with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Instead of believing what others say, or simply rejecting what others say, instead say "I don't know". Honestly examine yourself and think about the things that get in the way of truth. Things that get in the way of you truly being honest. What are your motivations? What are you lead by? What are the attachments you have that distort truth? Are you isolating variables, or are you letting your own lusts get in the way?
So you say you love science. I love science to. I am where I am now because I love science. I was into science long before I found God. I was a very haughty youth, and even very against anything to do with God and religion. I would tear people apart. But then I discovered something. My zeal for The Truth had caused me to persecute those whose entire faith was built around love of The Truth. I made a grave mistake, and I had my road to Damascus moment.
So what I am really trying to tell you is, my religion is Love of The Truth. Sincere faith alone is not enough, it must be coupled with charity. Sincere faith and charity. You might strongly believe in what you think is reality, but without charity you are going to end up condemning yourself through your condemnation of others. We are really all in the same boat here.
God loves you. Repent and believe The Good News. The Truth is what sets you free.
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They must think the FBI has psychic investigators or something. What could possibly be gained by investigating this?
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@Goldtop
So now you are speaking for everyone else? Actually, I've met plenty of people who have no problem making sense of it.
So no, it doesn't make sense to you. Maybe you don't want it to make sense.
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