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@David
Contrary to what you may have heard, we believe the same things about God.
The Trinity has to do with how God is revealed. Not that God is in 3 parts, divided, or even worse yet 3 Gods.
God is revealed through His Word, and His Spirit. The Word that all things were created from, and the spirit that enlivens. It is how we describe God being with us. So we certainly do believe that God is One.
Another thing The Trinity expresses is right relationship with God. We Worship The Father in Spirit and in Truth.
All this...
1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.2. The belief in G‑d's absolute and unparalleled unity.3. The belief in G‑d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.4. The belief in G‑d's eternity.5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
We certainly accept.
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@Castin
We Orthodox also very much understand that personal relationship with Jesus is of the utmost importance.
The main difference is that we believe in The One church as it was understood historically, that is, not many different churches that disagree on the most fundamental aspects of the faith.
We have Holy Orders. We believe in Apostolic succession.
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@David
When I think of socialism, I think of abolishing private property, government ownership of production, and the eradication of religion as government policy. I think the soviet union that killed over 20 million Orthodox Chriistians(and many Jews as well). I think China which puts the religious into reeducation camps, forces people to worship in state monitored facilities, and puts portraits of their president at the altars of churches. When I think socialism, I think atheist theocracy.
In other words, I do not think of the things you are talking about.
But I suppose this isn't really a topic about socialism, so eh...
Got a favorite quote from any Jewish sages ancient or modern?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The reason why you don't get it is because instead of respecting the mystery and seeking to find out the truth, you mock it.
This is how our faith is closed off to those who take themselves as being wise, making them fools. This is how God resists the proud and gives grsce to the humble.
It is not for you to know these things, because you are an enemy of the faith by your own choosing.
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@TheRealNihilist
"Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him."
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@3RU7AL
There is no fallacy, so you are misidentifying a fallacy.
Examples of Special Pleading:
1. Students who break the rules should be suspended from school. I broke a rule, but I shouldn't be suspended because I would be in a lot of trouble with my parents.
2. Katie and Mark are siblings. Their cat, Rusty, has made a mess in the bathroom by clawing the toilet paper and strewing it all over the floor. When they both return home after school, Mark tells Katie that she needs to clean it up because he is too tired to do it after school.
3. Yes, teacher, I think that lying is wrong, but she is my daughter, and she is normally such a good kid!
4. Of course those who aren't productive at work shouldn't get a raise. But, Mr. Boss, I have a family to feed.
5. Everyone should clean up their own messes, but my messy room doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, then you should clean it up.
6. Everyone should be patient and wait his or her turn in line. However, I need to go to the front because I have some place to be.
Not an example of special pleading..
The uncreated and the created have distinct natures.
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@3RU7AL
Instead of dismissing what I say because I present no reasoning, you should instead me explain.
It is a fallacy misidentification too accuse me of special pleading because I recognize that The Uncreated is of a different physis than created.
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@keithprosser
Yes, noumenon is a Greek word, not a German word.
Noumenon literally means a manifestation of the mind.
This is actually consistent if you understand that "Rationalistic scientism" or whatever you want to call it only has to do with things that are known. Things that are unknown might as well not exist!
It is effectively making a god of one's understanding.
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@3RU7AL
3ru7al, it is not currently possible for you to find the coherence in what I believe because the faith is constructed in such a way as to be shut off from those who are in a certain frame of mind. You are confounded, but not because what I believe is incoherent.
I have spoken to you at such a length that you should already have the answers to your questions. You will not believe what I say, so how is me explaining again going to be different?
The issue here is that western philosophy evolved as an attempt to undermine Christianity. That being the case, it is impossible for you to have a true understanding while holding on to this philosophy.
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm not interested in arguing fruitlessly. That seems to be what you like doing. I'm not interested.
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@3RU7AL
We can also logically deduce that we can't say much about noumenon except that it is non-infinite and is likely composed of some portion of unknown and some portion of unknowable features.
We can say without a doubt that noumenon is not God, because God is not a mental object.
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@Fallaneze
@3RU7AL
(IFF) two substances can interact (natural and super-natural or mental and physical) (THEN) they must be fundamentally the same.
The Uncreated and the created are two distinct physis (or natures as often translated into English). They are not the same. To say they are the same is monophysitism.
The Orthodox Catholic Church recognizes monophysitism as a heresy, and thus not orthodox(orthodox meaning correct belief).
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I speak of what I know.
The godless are confused by their own reasonings.
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@TheRealNihilist
You don't understand the evidence, and since you are a fool you dismiss it instead of trying to understand it.
Also, you are insisting that I debate under your defining of terms, which I don't agree with. Your definition of god has nothing to do with my God.
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@TheRealNihilist
So you are commiting the logical fallacies of invincible ignorance and strawman.
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They all sound like commies.
The one who sounded least like a commie was probably that lady from Minnesota.
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@keithprosser
Paul was a proper Orthodox Christian, and your assertion of a "Paul's Christianity" is a false narrative that even some protestants use to justify their ecclesiastical anarchy!
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@TheRealNihilist
You seem to think it is possible for there to be reality if nothing is ultimately real. If there is no ultimate reality, nothing is real. Your experience soundly disproves this, as there is clearly some form of reality.
The only possible conclusion is that The Ultimate Reality exists, and that is what is meant by God.
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@TheRealNihilist
You don't understand the evidence.
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@3RU7AL
The validity of the kalam argument is debatable, but it is also moot because even if it is valid it doesn't prove anything about the god of any religion, let alone of a particualar religion.Well stated.
This is an opinion that comes from having a preconceived notion about what God is to begin with.
One of the reasons atheists bumble around so much is that they have an understanding of what God is that gets in the way of what God actually is.
Why Is thos hard for you and others?
Because instead of accepting God ss The Ultimate Reality, you take God as being what we think The Ultimate Reality is, or more accurately, what you think we think The Ultimate Reality is.
It shouldn't take much though to see why this is a frustrating predicament for someone who is trying to help the God denier through their superstition.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The Trinity is God.
The faith is abiding in God.
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@zedvictor4
The Ultimate Reality is not a God in man's image.
You have no idea what we believe because you have dismissed it out right.
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@keithprosser
Maybe you should rest the rest of the post.
I know who you were posting at, and I'm rebuking you for spreading lies about my faith.
Here...
Pelagianism is heresy. What does that mean? It means that our works do not save us. James was not saying this at all. Paul is very right when he says we are not justified through works of the law.If we have faith, the works will follow. They are intertwined. Did not Jesus Christ say himself that we will be judged by our works? Whether we fed the hungry, visited those in prison, clothed the naked, etc? How can you detach faith in Jesus from this?Let it be known, Martin Luther was a heretic, and he not only altered scriptures to align with his perverse theology, but he is the reason that protestants to this day abandoned the septuigant and use the masoretic canon of scripture rather than what the church used for 1500 years prior.To you it might be the same whether someone does good deeds to get the praise of men or whether they do it out of their love for Christ. However, to God the heart does matter.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The Trinity is our personal relationship with God, and how God is revealed to us.
But make no mistake, we are talking about one God, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
It is not incorrect to say that...
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
It is incorrect to say that...
The Father is The Son.
The Father is The Holy Spirit.
The Son is The Holy Spirit.
These three persons are one in essence and undivided. They describe One God.
It is incorrect to say that these are three Gods or three parts of God.
Orthodox Christianity is The Trinity. That is our faith.
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@keithprosser
You are ignorant and in need of an education.
And it is certainly worth saying since you are awfully opinionated about these matters.
Now you can be offended at this and get prideful about it, or you can stop pretending to have knowledge and receive correction. I know what I believe. I know what the church teaches. You don't. Yiu are out of the loop. There is only shame in this if you insist that you know when you really don't.
Now believe me when I say that I want you to have a proper understanding, and don't fight me about it. You could, but it wouldn't be beneficial.
Pelagianism is heresy. What does that mean? It means that our works do not save us. James was not saying this at all. Paul is very right when he says we are not justified through works of the law.
If we have faith, the works will follow. They are intertwined. Did not Jesus Christ say himself that we will be judged by our works? Whether we fed the hungry, visited those in prison, clothed the naked, etc? How can you detach faith in Jesus from this?
Let it be known, Martin Luther was a heretic, and he not only altered scriptures to align with his perverse theology, but he is the reason that protestants to this day abandoned the septuigant and use the masoretic canon of scripture rather than what the church used for 1500 years prior.
To you it might be the same whether someone does good deeds to get the praise of men or whether they do it out of their love for Christ. However, to God the heart does matter.
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@keithprosser
This faith/works dichotomy is a western theological perversion.
We Orthodox understand thst faith and works are united in faithfulness.
The works come from faith!
And it is an abominable heresy to say that faith is simply belief, and all one needs to do is believe in one's head.
Faith without works is dead as James put it. What that means is that if you have no works to show for it, you don't really have faith!
And yes, the church acts as a father to the fatherless, even a mother. We also take care of widows. We take remaining unspotted from the world very seriously.
And I am not saying to boast, only to make it clear that this is very personal to me and not simply something I throw money at the church to do... I get paid to help the hearing impaired(I'm married, otherwise I would join a monastery in a heartbeat). When I am not doing this, I go around helping people, primarily the homeless. My whole life is dedicated to helping people because by the grace of God that is what my faith puts a drive in me to do. Even in my everyday life, I am resolved to see Christ in everyone, and love them no matter how obscured that image may be in them.
And believe it or not, I am here also out of love, certainly not because I enjoy being mocked and reviled!
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@keithprosser
Your contrsst between Paul and James.
A very protestant, even Lutheran understanding!
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@keithprosser
The word "God" means "The Ultimate Reality,"
Of course, your conception of God is not God. The Trinity addresses this, but you have no understanding of this.
And you can't because you are faithless and refuse to accept instruction.
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@keithprosser
You have no idea what you are talking about. You'd be better off confessing your ignorance and getting a real education.
(Not talking about Martin Luther, but everything else)
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@keithprosser
This is not a reasonable request so long as you have a false understanding of Christianity.
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@Stronn
If you say the universe is the Ultimate Reality, you are a pantheist. You still believe God exists.
But this is a conception of God, and. a conception of God is an understanding, it isn't God.
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@Stronn
Is it possible to observe everything all at once as it truly is?
Of course not.
You can't even see everything in the universe, how much less The Ultimate Reality.
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@keithprosser
The Ultimate Reality is exactly what fulfills what that means. If it doesn't exist, THERE IS NO REALITY.
This is so obvious it is a wonder that anyone could question this.
This should be universal common ground. Thst God exists. How wicked do you have to be in order to deny The Truth itself?
It is foolishness.
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@keithprosser
The Ultimate Reality is what we mean by God.
You are talking nonsense.
And you are skipping ahead by trying to conform qnd reconcile this with your undoubtedly superstitious understanding of our theology.
You should get the God.part down first.
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@keithprosser
It is hard to make broad statements about protestant churches because anybody who fills out the proper government paperwork can start a church.
Its anarchy
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@Castin
That is why we have the apostolic church, the writings if the church fathers, the ecumenical councils, etc.
See, to Protestants there was what was written in The New Testament... thousands year gap... boom! Today!
The faith doesn't change, we know what we believe. The church has never stopped existing. And the Orthodox is particularly conservative. Every Bishop's mission is preserving the faith uncorrupted. You can't do that in a church with a supreme pontiff who can infallibly declare something and corrupt the whole church.
Out of these 45,000 denominations, do you know which ones claim apostolic succession?
4 of them.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original church. Every other church broke away, and the proof is in studying church history.
The so called "Oriental Orthodox" broke away because of the heresy of monophysitism. Currently they claim to be Miaphysites(this is technical stuff, but it matters). There is actually a lot of progress mending this schism, so hopefully in 100 years or so we will be in proper communion(it's a slow process ironing out the kinks).
The Roman Catholic Church which forfeited their Orthodoxy after altering the creed of the church without an ecumenical council(something condemned by the ecumenical councils themselves). They claim the Pope has dictatorial powers over the entire church which was NEVER accepted by the church.
The Anglican Church which broke away from Rome because their King didn't like being told how to conduct his married life.
Because the bottom three broke away from the church, their Apostolic succession is technically null and void.
So really, there is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, as the creed ststes, and that is The Orthodox Catholic Church.
That being the case, we know the God we worship, the heterodox do not.
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@Stronn
Observable reality is by definition contingent on observation, and therefore cannot be The Ultimate Reality, which is not contingent.
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@keithprosser
Reality as it truly is. Reality in the truest sense. The reality that gives existence to all reality.
The Ultimate Reality.
That which is ultimately real.
Not that which exists in some sense, but in the total sense.
It is the necessary existence.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
They were turned off before I came into the picture.
Faithless and perverse, hearts full of wickedness. Crucifiers of Christ.
Jesus Christ gave his life for these, because He still loves them.
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@Castin
Protestant churches aee based on The New Testament.
The Orthodox Catholic church wrote and compiled The New Testament. It is oura to interpret, as ours is the church descended from the apostles, and our Aoostolic succession is still valid because we didn't violate the councils as the Latin Church did.
It is a part of our Holy Tradition. Protestants got it all backwards.
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@Castin
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
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@Castin
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
"...keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee."
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@keithprosser
Even in rhe earliest days of the church, Genesis 1 was understood as allegorical, without necessarily excluding the literal.
The important things to take home are that God created everything and human beings are made in God's
You know The Ultimate Reality exists. You won't call it God because you are a MURDERER.
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Protestants usually support Israel because of bad theology.
The Orthodox Church has a pretty good presence in Israel. A lot of Jews are educated to hate Christians. In Israel they are even encouraged to spit on them.
We love them anyway, but the feeling is not always mutual.
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@keithprosser
@Stronn
@3RU7AL
@Athias
The veracity of evolution is unimportant as a matter of salvation.
It is not important. The reason why it became an issue in western theology has to do with Roman Catholicism digging itself into a hole after their schism by embracing scholasticism. The post-reformation churches inherited this. The logical progression of protestant scholasticism is secular paganism.
The veracity of evolution does not effect Orthodox theology in the slightest. I can't say it enough, it is truly unimportant! An irrelevant issue.
I would also like to point out that the existence of God is the surest scientific fact there is.
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@Fallaneze
So something independent does need to exist in order to be our shared reference point but that does not mean that this independent thing is non-mental.
Human beings genetically have similar filters. We are programmed in a sense with the same sensory input.
The different senses are very foreign to eachother. Sight and hearing draw from the same source, but the information is filtered in a radically different way. Thus, the experience from sight and hearing are alien to eachother.
Besides information being filtered through our senses, it is further filtered through our cognition.
The shared reference point is almost universally mental, or a conception.
In this sense, The Ultimate Reality as a concept to be communicated is noumenon, but what it actually is referring to cannot be noumenon. A conception or mental construct is not God, otherwise the essence of this conception is not fulfilled. The essence of this conception is that it is not a conception, because the.conception itself is an arrow pointing to something else.
If The Ultimate Reality is noumenon, it does not fulfil the basic requirement of what The Ultimate Reality is in essence. Mind is a greater reality than noumenon, and mind itself is contingent on The Ultimate Reality.
Our ancient theologians knwing this problem said "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", not to say that God was a word, or noumenon, but to make clear that this Word is an image of what it represents, and it must be respected that when we use this image or icon, we are refering to the prototype of the icon.
Believe He is who He says He is. Get it?
What God is in essence. What The Ultimate Reality is in essence.
It is The Holy Spirit, or Spirit of Truth which comes from The Father, through The Son, and allows us to speak of The Father in The Son.
This I am speaking of is a great part of the Mystagogy of the faith. We acknowledge thst the only way to The Father is through The Son with The Holy Spirit as helper.
And this is something that distinguishes Orthodox Christianity from other monotheist faiths. By acknowledging the icon, we aren't mistaking a conception of God as God!
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@Dr.Franklin
Telling someone to "gtfo" isn't usually a very effective way to get them to do what you want.
For someone who says they are a Christian on their profile, you sure are rude. "Power" as a life goal is not very Christian either.
Whatever.
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Thankfully, knowing the age of the Earth is not necessary for anyone's salvation.
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