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If that's true... then, thanks god. Done. Don't need anything beyond appreciation.
I think part of that appreciation is to not be proud about what you feel you accomplished all on your own.
you can even be doing this out of kindness and love. It's the humans that wrote it then (maybe more specifically) promulgated it i question. Just look around dude... how many humans do you trust when it comes to keeping their greed and power?
If greed and power was our motivation, we wouldn't have come up with the idea of churvh and state needing to be seperate. If hreed and power was our motivation, our bishops would not be selected among monastics who literally give up all their possessions and swear to always obey the abbot. Quite the opposite, it is those who shun power and wealth that are made unto bishops, and their duty largely consists of guarding the faith from being corrupted.
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@3RU7AL
The Ultimate Reality is not the same thing as noumenon, a word that Kant used incorrectly.
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@keithprosser
It would only be the assumption that I wasn't telling the truth that would make this an issue!
Imagine for a moment I was telling the truth. If I am telling the truth, we are in a very dark place right now at Debateart.com.
I have no allies here. I am an object of scorn and mockery. I am viewed as an anomaly, not even worth consideration.
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@keithprosser
May be the gods do exist, but religions are man made.
There is a difference between God and gods.
The Ultimate Reality is God, and God absolutely exists.
The fact that we are created beings operating in a world of creation makes it to where religion is not only necessary, but unavoidable in the enlightening of man, no matter how much man may desire to semantically sidestep around this.
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@3RU7AL
Your ability to diiscern things is not The Truth.
To make peace with the limitations of human knowledge in a great way is to approach God, who is The Ultimate Reality, with the type of humility befitting a creature of God.
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Suffering needlessly is actually not a virtue for us. What is a virtue is to subdue the passions.
Our battle with the flesh has a great deal more to do with purifying the heart. Though many monks have tortured their bodies to subdue the passions, it is all in vain if it doesn't profit one towards loving others and being sincere.
Eternal life for us is theosis, or unity with God. This is salvation. In that, all flesh, all of creation is passing away, but The Word of God, The Truth is eternal.
So how is it that to know The One True God and the one sent Jesus Christ is eternal life?
Through the incarnation, all of creation was brought back to God, and so is alive in The Truth. The universe has effectively been deified in the fleshly nature of the hypostasis of The Son.
The Truth sets you free!
And when the light of Truth shines through everything, those who made their identity in falsehood abide in death, and we believe in eternal death. As it is written "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." So does the one who abides in death die eternally. Those who have their identity in Christ Jesus have eternal life, as The Truth abides forever.
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@Outplayz
You have no power thst was not given to you by God, and I am certainly not interested in having power over you.
Who do you say you are?
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@keithprosser
The existence of anyrhing truly random is in itself just as absurd of a thing to debate, and I would argue that it is inconsistent to claim that free will can't exist because it defies causality while at the same time asserting the existence of the random as for something to be truly random it by definition must defy causality.
To dismiss free will as impossible because it defies causality while entertaining the existence of random is inconsistent.
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@3RU7AL
You are implying that whatever free will is, it is impossible.
You aren't even really open to free will being anything other than impossible.
In fact, if I were to say that the only truly free will is God's, as God's will determines what is, you would still deny free will or dismiss it ss meaningless out of an aversion to the concept itself.
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@keithprosser
On a debate site, it should be expected that people are here simply because they like to argue.
Not saying that is anyone here!
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The debate over the veracity of free will is absurd.
That being the case, the effects of the belief itself is what really should be examined. How is belief in free will or denial of free will used to justify certain actions?
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@3RU7AL
If you are going to even introduce randomness at all, you might as well concede that free will exists, because you are just arguing around your aversion to the term at this point.
You will not find even the most pious and well disciplined Orthodox Monk who will claim total liberty from causality.
This argument is absurd in every way.
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It is accepting the reality that you don't have to be a shitlord for the rest of your life. You can always do better!This is an emotional appeal and opinion stated as fact.
No it isn't. It is a fact that we can reprogram our minds, and turn around from being a punk to a better person.
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@ludofl3x
I figured out that God is The Truth simply by reading the bible. Funny how it was later that I found out that this is what The Orthodox Church had always taught.
That being the case, you having an aversion doesn't mean that you know better.
Our God is The Truth. Another reason why we would say LORD instead of The Truth to protect others from using The LORD'S name in vain.
But as it should be apparent, there is much power in God's Holy Name, because when you realize this is the identity of God, all arguments against God are exposed as futile and STUPID.
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@ludofl3x
Try the answer
There will allways be idol worshipping pagans in the world, worshipping the lusts of their mind and flesh, living life to fulfill their passions. That being the case, let it be known that The Truth is a greater God than any of these gods, and all of them combined. There is One LORD.
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@3RU7AL
Violating causality as you understand it =/= violating causality.
Free will is not simply an emotion. It is accepting the reality that you don't have to be a shitlord for the rest of your life. You can always do better!
That's pretty good news really.
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@ludofl3x
There will allways be idol worshipping pagans in the world, worshipping the lusts of their mind and flesh, living life to fulfill their passions. That being the case, let it be known that The Truth is a greater God than any of these gods, and all of them combined. There is One LORD.
Part of the mystery is that some things are hidden so that they can be revealed. As I have been saying since day one here, the big mystery of God is that The Truth is God. The Ultimate Reality.
It is fine that we express things the way we do, because it weeds out the haughty, and exposes the wisdom of men as foolishness.
That is why we teach charity. If one doesn't have charity, they do not have The Truth. They can't.
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@Outplayz
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
Do you know what that means?
It means love The Truth, and shun falsehood.
For
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
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@Outplayz
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones."
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The very idea that someone can choose to be something other than the shitbag they ended up becoming out of their own life choices must be obnoxious to the defeatist.
Cool thing is, we can always choose to grow up. To do better. It is amazing what can be accomplished through sustained effort and some humility.
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@ludofl3x
The lives and writings of the saints demonstrate that ours is the enlightened church. The Holy Spirit is still with the church. What the church teaches is superior to what other churches teach. The reason is simple. We actually are the rightful guardians of the faith, while other churches are simply winging it based off of the crumbs that fell off the table of the true church.
Truly, it doesn't matter whether someone else is convinced or not. I will say this, a disproportionate number of former protestant reverends, pastors, and preachers have found their way into just the church I go to. These were men who came to the true church because they were sincere and this is where their studies led them. These are educated people. There is even a former Roman Catholic priest who is Orthodox now in our church, so not even just the church leaders of protestants have found their way here. There is even a former Buddhist monk at our church!
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@ludofl3x
I am pointing out that your claim is false, it was not intended to be an argument from popularity.
You are not a Christian, so I don't believe I could make an argument to you as a Christian.
What I would say to everyone, Christian or otherwise, is that we can be historically verified as the original historic church, and historically not being part of the church means that you are not really Christian.
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@ludofl3x
Actually, The Orthodox Church is the 2nd largest congregation of those calling themselves Christian on the planet, which is pretty miraculous considering we have been the target of genocides for the last thousand years.
And none of the churches that claim this doctrine of "once saved always saved" are yet 500 years old.
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Arianism was determined to be a heresy at this council. The teaching that there was a time when The Son was not. Yet we the church know that time itself was created by The Word of God, and that there never was a time when The Son was not.
The Arian Jesus is not unlike the "Jesus Christ was a good teacher" Jesus you hear from yhe mouths and writings of those who are really trying to undermine the faith itself.
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Antinomianism and neo-gnosticism are the prevailing heresies of this age. If these are your errors, why not do whatever seems right in your eyes? Christ is irrelevant. Might as well rub your genitals on anything that consents(or what won't snitch on you if there is no consent).
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@ludofl3x
I would just like to point out that we Orthodox never had a "once saved always saved" doctrine, and that this is a Calvinist innovation. John Calvin himself was not Orthodox, and many of his teachings are directly at odds with what the church has always taught.
Yes, we think that doctrine is as ridiculous as you do.
And really, to be honest, most of what you hear in protestant churches is bad theology, so learning the faith from them is a bad idea, no matter how passionate some of them might be about their errors.
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@Outplayz
I'm saying that you determine your beliefs based on whether or not it sounds nice to you.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It is my hope that one day these things cease to be a joke for you and that you develop a real sense of due reverence.
Just remember, even to this day, people die over this stuff. Not for any other reason than being firm in confessing The Truth even under threats of torture or death.
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@zedvictor4
Texas is as diverse as any country. It is bigger than a lot of countries!
This curse of Ham stuff is nonsense. Harikrish doesn't actually respect the subject matter, he is really only interested in making Christianity look bad. I don't know whether he cares about the veracity of his claims.
The church teaches a way that is superior to tolerance without excluding it. Charity. It is the type of love we teach, charity. The best biblical exhortation you can find on that would be 1 corinthians 13.
So I'd like to make it very clear that the Orthodox Church is not interested in secular power or the persecuting of anyone. In fact, we hold free will with great reverence. That translates into being against any and all coercive means to influence or convert people. I have even heard it said by clergy that they find it offensive when some protestant missionaries only promise food and water to starving and thirsty people if they go to church services. We are very different.
Not only are we not a threat to anyone, and truly, the world would be a much better place if people were better educated about our faith. A few things have made this very hard. The obvious thing to point out would be western forms of Christianity which have confused the matter grestly through what in my opinion is unenlightened theology. The second thing is the fact that in the last century, over 50 million Orthodox Christians have been killed because of their faith. We have been under heavy persecution pretty much our entire history. In the case of the American Church, it is still forming, and to be honest, probably not run in a canonical way. Instead of 1 American church you have a hodge podge of difference churches from oversees. It makes it to where the bishop of the Greek churches in Texas is in Colorado, and the bishop of the Antiochan churches in Texas is in Kansas. It doesn't make any good sense. I am confident that eventually, the Orthodox Church in America will be properly organized and be distinctly American. Once that happens, I believe that Orthodoxy in America will grow even stronger as more and more heterodox Christians become aware of it and how it has preserved the true faith intact despite assault from every side.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Our bishops can trace their ordinations back to the apostles. They don't just arbitrarily decide they are called by God and assume themselves to have authority.
Perhaps you missed the part where out of 318 of the bishops that attended, only 11 of them weren't maimed from the tortures of persecution.
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@zedvictor4
You aren't really familiar with the circumstances. Schismatic means they left the church. It isn't childish finger pointing, it is historical reality. The only reason you want to call them Christian is so you can associate the evils sanctioned by their church to us.
I am not a gun toting Texas isolationist. Russia produces some really saintly people. Yeah I would peraonally like to see peace with The United States and Russia.
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@Outplayz
Sounds to me like what guides your beliefnis a personal sense of aesthetics.
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Today in the Orthodox Church we celebrate the memory of the first ecumenical council.
There is really a lot that went on here, but I think on thing worth noting is that "of the 318 fathers, only 11 were free from such marks of persecution, whose name were Absalom, Bishop of Edessa, and son of Mar Ephrem’s sister, Jonah of Raikson, Mara of Dora, George of Shegar, Jacob of Nisibis, Marouta of Mepairkat, John of Goostia, Shimon of Diarbekir, Adai of Agal, Eusebius of Caesarea and Joseph of Nicomedia.
There is really a lot that went on here, but I think on thing worth noting is that "of the 318 fathers, only 11 were free from such marks of persecution, whose name were Absalom, Bishop of Edessa, and son of Mar Ephrem’s sister, Jonah of Raikson, Mara of Dora, George of Shegar, Jacob of Nisibis, Marouta of Mepairkat, John of Goostia, Shimon of Diarbekir, Adai of Agal, Eusebius of Caesarea and Joseph of Nicomedia.
But all the others were more or less maimed in their persecutions from heretics. Some had their eyes taken out; some had their ears cut off. Some had their teeth dug out by the roots. Some had the nails of their fingers and toes torn out; some were otherwise mutilated; in a word there was no one without marks of violence; save the above-named persons.
But Thomas, Bishop of Marash was an object almost too frightful to look upon; he had been mutilated by the removal of his eyes, nose and lips; his teeth had been dug out and both his legs and arms had been cut off. He had been kept in prison 22 years by the Armanites [Armenians] who used to cut off a member of his body or mutilate him in some way every year, to induce him to consent to their blasphemy, but he conquered in this fearful contest to the glory of believers and to the manifestation of the unmercifulness of the heretics. The fathers took him with them to the Council and when the king saw him, he fell down upon the ground and venerated him saying,
“I venerate thee, O thou martyr of Christ, who art adorned with many crowns.”
And to this day, there are still some among nominal Christians who, denying the church itself, think that they have somehow recreated the first century church that to this day is alive and well in The Orthodox Church, the very church that Jesus promised would not be overcome by the gates of hades.
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@zedvictor4
Really though, Texas is the only state in the entire union that could survive as a country.
We have our own electrical grid.
We have a balanced budget.
We have great infastructure.
We have great industry and agriculture.
We have a very well developed and civilized gun culture.
Texans tend to be very proud of Texas.
Plus Texans make up a good chunk of US armed forces. Texans who are really in all likelihood loyal to Texas.
Texas has its act together for the most part.
Like I said though, my part to play in all of this is a peacemaker. No matter the governing situation, my role isnpretty much the same. I will pray for our civil authorities.
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@zedvictor4
My faith is certainly not in the politics of men. My faith is in Jesus Christ, and my part to play in whatever ends up happening is to be a peacemaker.
I am simply explaining to you the rationale behind our second amendment in America. That is, it is put there as a defense against tyranny, whether that tyranny comes in the form of government or bandits, pirates, and barbarians.
This right to bear arms being recognized as necessary for the security of a free state.
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@Harikrish
This has already been addressed. Your interpretation is wrong.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is The Christian Church. Roman Catholicism is a heretical offshoot that you mistake for our church.
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@Harikrish
This is simply a false narrative.
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@zedvictor4
Yeeeeeah.... see, if the last century has shown us anything, it is that tyranny in government is still something to be concerned with. That is the reason why the 2nd amendment is a thing.
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@Harikrish
The. Church has greater authority than you when it comes to the interpretation of scripture. They are our writings. You do not have the Holy Spirit to interpret our scripture correctly.
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@Harikrish
I don't think you yet understand what I mean when I say that they broke away from the Orthodox Church. You are talking about things you don't really have knowledge about.
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@Outplayz
I wonder if you'll feel the same as an old man who has others changing his diapers.
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@Outplayz
So you say.
But it is not wrong to say you can do nothing on your own. You can't even live on your own. Your very existence was given to you and is sustained by God.
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@Outplayz
Perhaps you are taking for granted all you rely on.
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@Harikrish
The pope of Rome is the head of a fallen and schismatic church, his opinion matters little to me. He is not even Orthodox.
For God to become man at all, to take the form of creation is quite the condescension as it is.
But it was necessary that God should become death, so that by death, death would be conquered. And through His glorious resurrection fill all things, giving life to those in the tombs, and drawing all of creation into his flesh, deifying it together with him.
To the glory of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is Lord of All and blessed forever and unto ages of ages amen.
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@Harikrish
It is kind of hard to sing an entire psalm when your lungs are filling up with fluid and you are being crucified.
If what you are saying is true, how do you explain the other things in this psalm that apply to the situation?
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are loosened: my heart in the midst of my belly is become like melting wax.My strength is dried up, like a potsherd; and my tongue is glued to my throat; and thou hast brought me down to the dust of death.For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.They counted all my bones; and they observed and looked upon me.They parted my garments among themselves, and cast lots upon my raiment.
And isn't it clear that that this is referring to the church thst followed?
And my seed shall serve him: the generation that is coming shall be reported to the Lord.And they shall report his righteousness to the people that shall be born, whom the Lord has made.
You are wrong. There are Jews who were witnesses who would have understood the psalm that was being referenced.
You do not really know our faith because you study scripture with an impure heart. You really study scripture to undermine Christianity.
Yet, Jesus Christ loves you and you can still turn away from error.
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@zedvictor4
See, 1776 was about resisting the globalist empire, at the time represented by them globe trotting red coats. The very empire the sun never set.
The second amendment is in place so that the people can resist a tyrannical government should one ever take over.
And that is why we have guns, it is very much part of our culture. Even more so in Texas!
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