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@EtrnlVw
The idea that someone might suffer tremendously because out of their own free will they decided to reject God seems to be a way that God respects our free will. Can God hardly be blamed? No one is sent to hell by God, they choose to go there.
Goats and the sheep.
Goats and the sheep.
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@disgusted
To love your neighbor is to love God, as we are each made in the image of God.
Or
"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
So love of God extends to loving The Image of God. That is how we should love ourselves and others. It is very much all related.
So it is The Image of God we love, not the things that defile that image.
And so we worship God in Spirit and in Truth, which is The Trinity.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You say they are. saying the same thing, but I think that is a lack of discernment on your part, not reality.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
To you this is a hypothetical.
To us it is a fulfillment of prophecy.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The fact that everyone is wrong is pretty foundational to Christianity.
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@keithprosser
Well, what you say you believe doesn't match what you profess.
Atheism is defined by its denial of reality.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You say I would say these things.
Can reading a book about carpentry replace carpentry?
There isn't much else to say. My religion is Truth Worship. If you can't see passed the surface level at this point, I would invite you to come and see.
If you aren't going to, I am not going to press the issue.
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@keithprosser
The Hebrews 11 passage is not so much a definition of faith as it is a description of how faith works.
And truly, we do not see The Ultimate Reality as it is, but through a glass darkly, but we believe God exists with strong conviction.
And to say there is no evidence of God's existence is a ludicrous claim, as all of creation testifies of God. The Ultimate Reality clearly exists.
And having that faith, we worship God through love of The Truth in sincerity.
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@Tradesecret
"The world is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them the passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honour which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancour and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world and how far you are dead to it."
- St. Isaac the Syrian
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@Discipulus_Didicit
As I said, the religion is Truth Worship. Love of The Truth. Love of The Ultimate Reality through The Truth.
The way to do this in truth is through the cleansing of the nous.
Surely you have enough reason to see how this is the truth.
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@disgusted
It is not wrong to eat meat.
I don't eat animals because it is not necessary. Have you ever hung around cows? They are practically asking to be eaten.
I used to say, "Steak is proof that God loves us and wants us to eat animals."
It is not necessary to eat animals, so I don't. It is also part of my discipline. Besides, at this point I don't miss it. I have been vegetarian for years.
I am very happy. You can keep your cheeseburger if you want.
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@keithprosser
That isn't the same thing as without evidence.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would go so far as to say that faith is integral to even making sense of the whole thing. You know, when all the pieces come together and there begins to show a consistency.
Orthodoxy is a Church of parables. Think of it this way, even in the Gospel accounts, Jesus Christ did not simply tell parables, His entire life was a parable!
And so it is with the church. Every thing that The Church does is a parable of something. And I heard it said by an old retired presbyter that the Sacred Mysteries are mysteries in the sense that they are to be experienced, not solved.
And even our life is a real mystery, to be lived out.
We are each made in the image of God. That being the case, to be truly human is to keep that image pure. Sin is like dirt and smudges on that image. We are living Icons.
And well, The Church is a hospital. It is there to help you not just to keep that image pure, but to help you to know how! And really, it is God who cleans you, but you do play a part in it. That part is cooperation. God does not force people to accept him, it is a free will choice.
So if it all looks strange from the outside looking in, realize that even when these things were first instituted as practices it was just as strange. It is the way it is very much with purpose, and it isn't simply a situation of "Oh people in ancient times sure were strange. Look at how they did things as preserved in these people who can't get with the times!".
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@keithprosser
@Discipulus_Didicit
Belief without evidence is how atheists use the word faith. That is never how the church understood the word.
Faith can even be "something that is believed especially with strong conviction", and well, evidence usually leads to strong conviction!
But it is the case certainly that you get nothing without faith. To simply grasp these things intellectually is like looking at a shadow. What good is a set of instructions if they are not followed?
And the faith is pure. Worship God in Spirit and in Truth. That is worship through The Trinity.
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@Tradesecret
No, we very much disagree of the eucharist.
I feel absolutely no conviction for being an ambassador for Christ in these congregations that confess Him. It would be more hypocritical for me to partake in their eucharist when we wouldn't let them partake of ours.
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@keithprosser
As a vegan, I eat kosher by default.
If I wasn't vegan, I would probably go kosher anyway. You do it right, it is healthy.
I only eat fish on pascha because hey, Jesus ate a fish. I figure if there is any day I should eat meat, it'd be in honor of that.
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@disgusted
That is the type of opinion I would expect from someone who doesn't acknowledge ever missing the mark.
There are many vices that I have had that no longer have sway over me. Every time I repented, I was sincere. But it is a hard thing, for sure. The grace of God is needed. If you are truly repentant, when you fall, get back up. Don't give up and be overcome.
I am a human being. If I miss the mark, what can I do but repent and be more mindful? Wickedness is taking pride in ones error.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well, the thing is, if properly understood Orthodox Christianity must be true! And that is, as I said, it is Truth Worship, and very purely so.
And thousands of years worth of instruction in this.
What can I tell you but see for yourself?
Comparing to anything else would really be a matter of seeing the differences.
You want an easy answer that really can't replace experience. How can you get experiential knowledge if you don't have faith?
Even a scientist must have faith in order to go through with the scientific method.
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I openly confess that I am wrong to be unkind. I ask God for mercy and forgiveness and I will strive to be better with the grace of God.
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@Castin
Maybe I could have been more charitable to the chaos magician.
But make no mistake, he has embraced folly and wickedness, and unlike many here do the same, he is very open about making a willful decision towards that.
But you are wrong, I am not sliding down a slippery slope of not caring. I did not say anyone who isn't an Orthodox Christian is a loser.
You want to know what is in my heart? I don't want RM to become a drug addled bum. And truthfully, I work with a lot of people who remind me of RM. So excuse me for my lack of tact. I know people who were like him before they were driven out on the streets. Just as arrogant too. It is a dead end.
And well, pardon me for not being tactful about it, but it certainly isn't because I don't care. I am under no moral obligation to be here.
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@Castin
Your faith should be in God, not Mopac.
Excuse me for being concerned about someone destroying their life because they have made a knowing decision to reject reality and embrace delusion.
I would rather RM not be a loser.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why do you feel it necessary to turn truth into an opinion?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why are you sorry for something we both believe?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Heart purification is not about sorting the opinions of other people. Though it certainly does involve examining the influences and processes that might lead to one's own opinions.
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@disgusted
As a nihilist, the only time you claim to believe in something is if you can feign belief in order to sow doubt in another's mind about their beliefs.
Like for example, believing that I admitted something I didn't.
You are like a characature of wickedness. Mindless and insipid. Without hope. A dog. A swine. An overall worthless person.
Crazy check.
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@ludofl3x
Nonsense
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@disgusted
Prove there is something greater than The Ultimate Reality.
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@disgusted
You can't prove something to someone who says "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth!"
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@disgusted
The Truth is God.
You say God doesn't exist.
Therefore you don't believe in The Truth.
Very simple.
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@ludofl3x
What you are asking commes from a fundamental misunderstanding concerning the nature of The Son's person.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Purity of heart has to do with one's relationship with God. Certainly The Holy Spirit grants discernment as a gift, but a purity of heart has little to do with say, constructing an airplane.
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@ludofl3x
But the Jesus that we believe is The Word of God who as St. John the Theologian writes...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
So The Word of God that is God, or as is written in the Creed of The Church.. "Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."
Or as St Jammes the Just writes...
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
So to make it very clear, to say Jesus Christ doesn't exist is to say there is no truth, because Jesus Christ is The Truth.
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@ludofl3x
You can't prove there is no Truth.
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A psalm of David
"In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.
I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;
And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy: thou hast set my feet in a large room.
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly.
For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed.
I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.
I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life.
But I trusted in thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my God.
My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
Oh how great is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; which thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.
Blessed be the LORD: for he hath shewed me his marvellous kindness in a strong city.
For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.
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@keithprosser
I don't respect you as an authority on the subject. You are, after all, identifying as an atheist, which means that your stated position is that you don't believe there is an Ultimate Reality.
Really, that undermines everything you say, because it means you don't believe in anything you say.
Whether or not you believe this or not is irrelevant. This is your stated position. At this point, you should know better. Since you are not correcting yourself, it leads me to believe that sincerity is not as important to you as your pride.
I am not asking you to say you are a Christian. But at the very leadt, you do believe God exists, which means you are not an atheist. If you disagree, I'm not interested in your semantic fumblings.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It goes without saying that orthodox christians have very pure hears since orthodox christians are the very best in every way (and the most humble too).
That is a claim that no one is making.
Orthodox Christians are people, and as such you will find them at many different stages.
And yes, many Orthodox Christians are not very good at practicing the faith.
Luckily for us though we do not use that as our method for distinguishing between opinions that are true and opinions that are false since that would mean that we could only have opinions on things where the purity level of hearts was involved.
Someone can't have a pure heart for you.
Just as reading a science text book makes not a scientist.
No. There is a reliable and non-biased method that can be used to sort between true opinions and false opinions. It is not arbitrary.
And wouldn't you agree that having a pure and undefiled nous would make someone more effective at this?
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@keithprosser
One reaches Allah Most High by repenting from all things, unlawful or offensive; seeking sacred knowledge in accordance with one’s needs; maintaining ritual purity; performing the obligatory prayers in the first of their time and in congregation, including the Sunna prayers that correspond to each of the obligatory prayers; adhering to the eight raka’ats of the midmorning prayer (Duha) and the six raka’ats after the sunset prayer and before the night prayer; performing the night prayers (tahajjud) after awaking from one’s sleep; fulfilling the witr prayer; fasting on Mondays and Thursdays and on the three days of the full moon – i.e. the 13th,14th, and 15th of the lunar month – and also the days of the year in which fasting is recommended; reciting the Quran with the heart’s presence coupled with reflection upon its meanings; frequently asking forgiveness of Allah (istighfar); maintaining prayers and blessings upon the Prophet, peace be upon him; and, finally, adhering to the meritorious invocations of the morning and the evening that have come to us from the Sunna (adhkaar as-sabaah wa al-masa)
In other words, if you follow these instructions, you will reach God!
Purity of heart in a Muslim context I imagine means something very different than an Orthodox context.
Maybe, but you offered this either/or choice earlier
It wasn't an either or choice, it was a non exhaustive comparison.
As I freely admitted and even believed when I made that post.
Would you prefer I write a book for everyone here on the infinite variations of pagan practice?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
And is not the discipline that I described to you a method in itself?
The method is heart purification.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Obviously I do see that because I am Orthodox.
I don't see that YOU get it, because as I said, you are speaking in a "fill in the blank" type of manner which leads me to believe you are not understanding something.
But if I am the one who is missing something, I would appreciate you filling me in.
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More Isaiah
"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Truth worship is certainly better than worshipping amusement.
Truth worship is certainly better than worshipping the self.
Worshipping God in spirit and in truth is certainly superior to worshipping God insincerely for gain.
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But it is very probably true - and you worship the truth, don't you?
What makes the survival of humanity intrinsically moral? I thought you were a moral nihilist?
It is certainly not how Orthodoxy understands morality.
You have heard the term 'false dichotomy' before? The choices are not limited to theistic religion or hedonism.
I never made such a claim, so I am not making a dichotomy at all. I can surely think of other "choices". Interestingly enough, the Greek word "heresy" means choice.
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@Outplayz
And that is why we have a Church. The Church. The Orthodox Catholic Church.
And it is The Church descended from Jesus and the Apostles, guided by The Holy Spirit, and the gates of hell will not overcome it.
So maybe instead of leaning on your own understanding, go to the authoritative church.
And you'll get as much out of that as you put into it.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You say "we", but I don't believe you are being sincere.
In fact, you are responding as if this is simply a "fill in the blank" thing to you.
And yes, it looks arbitrary. It is as if the theology of the faith itself is meaningless to you.
Compare The Truth is God, love God by purifying the heart.
To
The Truth is God. Love God through hedonism.
Which is true worship? Which is right belief?
And that is what Orthodoxy means. True worship. Right belief.
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@keithprosser
So utility. Survival of species.
Yes, this is certainly an example of a common moral philosophy. Very worldly. Really probably a lot more arbitrary than you like to think.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not entirely sure that you don't see it as an arbitrary thing.
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@keithprosser
Isn't it possible to do those things simply because they are good things to do?
But why are they good things to do? And that is where the moral nihilist, such as yourself, is going to reveal their blindness. Even though it is written on your heart, as well as God, to you what can it be but an aesthetic decision? What is good now for you may not be as appealing later.
You want to know something that is really hard? Helping the homeless. A lot of people go in to it with all these good heroic feelings, but most of them end up bitter and decide to give up on that. Yes, even so called Christians. Why is it good to help the homeless? Well, many who they end up very disillusioned. It is not what they thought it would be.
And I use this as an example because yes, it is a good thing. Why is it a good thing? Well, if you have wrong ideas, you might even believe the opposite after working with the homeless for an extended period of time!
If people don't do good works 'orphans and widows' will starve, while we wait for a god to do anything.
Of course, Christianity is not an inactive existing only in the mind type of faith.
It is written by the prophet Ezekiel..
"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."
And it can be discerned from reading the Old Testament prophets that a people that does strengthen the hand of poor and take care of the helpless quickens its destruction.
Atheism has nothing to offer. Nothing to give the oppressed and poor. It won't help them. It is fundamentally wicked, as is materialism in general. Take a homeless man enslaved by their sin and give them a million dollars. Don't be surprised if they blow it all on scratch offs and liquor. Material things will not solve these problems. Atheism has nothing to offer but death.
And it is dumb, and even you know it is dumb because you say ourself that you believe The Ultimate Reality exists. That means you already believe in God.
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@keithprosser
Because you got triggered by the word "godless", which is really another. way of saying wicked.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If they aren't Orthodox, they aren't doing it right by definition.
For example, many Christians claim the same God, but are they Orthodox? No, they are heterodox. This might be a nicer way of calling them heretics, but the point is that they aren't really with The True Church. At best, they may have an incomplete faith. At worst they are defined by their errors.
The Ultimate Reality is recognized in just about every major religion. The religions are different though. Maybe even their God is different. What would I do? I would rather have a discussion about these things with someone on an individual level. I think the differences would become more apparent that way.
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@keithprosser
I am certain there are many crackheads, alcoholics, and smokers who call their slavery an exercise of their freedom.
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