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@Discipulus_Didicit
God is not divided into parts. 1 essence, undivided.
I am very certain of what I am talking about, that certainty does not overcome the reality that we are using the medium of creation to speak of the Uncreated.
And that is the reason for the Trinity. We are not talking about a God that is a conception, but a God that is far beyond conception. The Ultimate Reality, what that is In Truth.
It is kind of like describing a piece of music using words.
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@Stephen
That does not follow from what I said.
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@disgusted
I don't need to prove anything. No amount of petulance on your part is going to underminethe fact thst The Truth is God over you and every other God denier or unbeliever. The Truth is stands clear apart from error.
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@disgusted
Hindus are devil worshippers, so it doesn't matter what they think.
As far as I know, Virtuoso is an observant Jew, why don't you ask him yourself?
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The Orthodox Church teaches like the Catholic church a version of free will that is incompatible with faith
I honestly can't see how that is true, and even find this statement ludicrous.
On praying to saints, it is more accurate to say they pray with us. Have you ever prayed for someone? Has someone ever prayed for you? It isn't much different.
We certainly accept that Jesus is the one mediator. Everyone in the church prays for everyone else. The saints are still praying with us. We here on Earth are the church militant. The ones who have passed over are the church triumphant. They are the cloud of witnesses.
I hold that it is superstitious in its teaching that the bread and the wine ACTUALLY becomes the literal body of Christ. Not only is this absurdity in the least, but it promotes the idea that Jesus is crucified over and over again
Not only do the earliest Church fathers and saints insist that this is the case, but not accepting this is the surely an error, as even St. Paul wrote "For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body."
And earlier in the same epistle he writes "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"
The eucharist is not a crucifiction of Jesus.
I do not agree that our church is not the church, though. We are a church which upholds the name of Jesus as Lord and God and we will not resile from that just because you take the view that we are not Christians
There is One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
All the historical heretics said they were Christian too, you know. But they don't share the faith of The Church, so how can they be?
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@disgusted
The God of Israel is The God of All.
It should be obvious that The Truth reigns supreme.
But God scattered those building the tower of babel, rose pharaoh up to show His power, and called Cyrus by name.
Even in The Old Testament, God is sovereign over all of Earth, not just Israel.
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@keithprosser
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."
This is in the book of Daniel.
There are other examples, but i read this one today and it is pretty unambiguous.
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@Tradesecret
If Orthodox Christianity would reject works as a means of salvation and stop praying / therefore worshiping dead saints, and stop idolatry then perhaps they might start to trust in Jesus as their Lord and their Saviour. Then perhaps we might be able to have some unity in worship.
We do not believe that works save, neither do we worship saints. We certainly do neither of these things. And we certainly do accept Jesus as our Lord and savior.
Prayer is an integral part of being a Christian, we certainly couldn't stop doing that. And these "dead" saints are alive in Christ, as you will be too if you depart in grace.
I noted a while ago that an orthodox priest would come and have communion at our church. You twisted the story by saying that we would accept them as part of the church, yet the Orthodox church would not accept us. What you failed to comment on what that this priest accepted our communion as holy and worshiped with us. This is quite contrary to how you have explained in the past.
That Orthodox Priest would be in error. I would be surprised if the bishop would condone such a thing.
You are right, we do not practice open communion, and while we can do many other things with heterodox, the eucharist is not one of those things.
I for example would never actually worship in a Roman Catholic church as I would not consider it true worship. Even though I would accept Catholics to come and worship with us. This is because the table that the Catholic church holds out is superstitious - not because there are not Christians within the church. But for your priest to come to my church - is an acknowledgement that our church is a true church.
The actions of one priest who is obviously in error does not represent The Church. If a church is not with us, it isn't the church.
When you say that the table that the Catholic Church holds out is superstitious, what do you mean?
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@disgusted
It is very clear even in the old testament that God is the God of all, whether or not proper acknowledgement is given.
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@Tradesecret
Believe it or not, Orthodoxy is not really all that legalistic. That said, I think it is good to do the prescribed fasts and such. Interestingly enough, this is the week after the Sunday of the publican and the pharisee, so there. are no fasts this week(we usually fast every Wednesday and Friday).
This was actually the issue (over oaths) that helped me find Orthodoxy. I was being pressured into signing a contract and swearing before the altar to be a member of a church. I knew that both Jesus and James said not to swear oaths. It caused me to look more into what the different churches taught.
Then I found The Orthodox Church!
Later on I found out that vows were not done at weddings or during baptism or Chrismation. I was pleasantly surprised, because one of the arguments this church used in an attempt to get me to make an oath was comparing it to wedding vows.
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@Outplayz
It has nothing to do with feeling good about oneself. You are truly deceived spiritually.
But if yourbpride won't allow you to accept that, I'm not going to convince you.
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@keithprosser
I think you are really taking that out of context from the article you pulled it from, but...
I think you are missing the point. The point isn't the Jews so much as it is the God that used to Jews to demonstrate something.
The focus here is God more than anything, and this is the God of all, not simply the Jews.
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@Outplayz
We have a technical word for what you are describing in Orthodoxy. It is called prelest.
And hell won't be more enjoyable than heaven, and it is either one or the other.
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@Tradesecret
I don't blame the reformation at all for breaking away from Rome.
However, the next step for the post reformation churches is to find their way back to Orthodox Catholicism, because this is The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Martin Luther was a priest and Augustine was a Bishop. They weren't lawyers.
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@Tradesecret
You are right, she is the victim. The one who is being punished is Jepthah because he wasn't expecting his daughter to be the first one he saw! His oath was wicked to begin with.
The Orthodox Church does not have the same attitude towards vows as heterodox churches.
In each of these cases, lets look...
In court, at a wedding, ordination, baptism, when civil servants are swearing allegiance to the country and the people they represent.
We do not do vows at weddings
We do not do vows during baptisms
Presbyters and monastics do swear oaths.
But the point is that swearing an oath and breaking it is like using the lords name in vain, so it is something to be avoided or well more accurately, taken very seriously.
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@Outplayz
That is kind of the point. If you love darkness more than the light, you are going to hate the light. When the light comes, you are going to hate it.
And believe it or not, that is what is coming.
But you prefering the dark to the light is a sickness, and it really isn't until you are separated from these things do you later realize how worthless they are.
Someone told me yesterday how when they were growing up they loved videogames. He gave up videogames after getting married. After his wife died, he tried to go back to playing videogames, and he couldn't figure out how he ever liked them to begin with.
I have seen the same thing with people who used to do things they no longer can enjoy. It is like a dog returning to its own vomit.
It is really hard to convince someone whose life is centered around smoking crack that life is worth living without crack.
And so it is when we prefer darkness to the light. We are not truly in our right minds.
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@Stephen
Falsehood melts away in the presence of The Truth.
How hellish it must be to stand in the presence of God while identifying with that which defiles you.
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@keithprosser
She was being punished for her father's hastiness to make a vow. And no, it wasn't right. In a way, he was being punished for doing such a thing.
And his daughter went down very bravely and with dignity.
Christians are not really supposed to make vows, because all vows are like a vow to God. We have to keep them. In fact, we Orthodox don't even exchange vows when we get married! That said, we of course take marriage very seriously. The priest will pray a blessing, but we don't really do vows. It's not necessary to us.
That said, presbyters might make vows when they take up that cross. I am not too sure. I could be wrong.
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@keithprosser
By theologians you mean John Calvin, who is a figure of the reformation in relation to the heretical Roman Catholic Church.
These "theologians" you like to reference that debate these things are all protestants I would imagine.
Over a thousand years before the reformation, these issues were ironed out by the church fathers and. ecumenical councils. The Church knows what it believes!
The west is run by lawyers who have to codify everything. Interestingly enough, I am pretty sure John Calvin was a lawyer!
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@Stephen
So I can give you an answer and then you can pretend I didn't again as this is precedent? Prove me wrong, please, I would be delighted to be wrong about this.
Where heaven is and what heaven is are the same. The presence of God. To the godly this presence of God will be rapturous. To those who reject God, that same presence will be torment and shame.
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@Tradesecret
I was probably an unknowing Calvinist before becoming Orthodox. Studying the church fathers, starting with Augustine in fact(who got me interested in the others) lead me to the realization that the only church that matches the church that these fellahs belonged to is The Orthodox Catholic Church.
But if course, even we would say that salvation is a matter of grace, not works, and God respects what we have to work with, and looks at our heart. What is really important is that we are trying, and God knows. Otherwise, who could make it? Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
But we certainly believe in free will, as did Augustine. As far as I know, Calvin did not believe in free will. As far as I know, the type of double predestination that Calvin taught is not Orthodox, and is not even really what Augustine taught either.
Orthodoxy doesn't really accept the idea of total depravity. Augustine believed that we all inherited the guilt of Adam and Eve, while Orthodoxy teaches rather that we inherited the mess. Augustine's error when it comes to this has been traced to the fact that the Latin translation of the New Testament renders Romans 5:12 in a way to imply that we all share Adam's guilt.
The church teaches that as we are made in the image of God, the purest state of being human is actually good. Really it is the sin we fall in that diminishes our humanity. I must admit even that was kind of a shock to me at first because I without even knowing really bought into the idea of total depravity!
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@Goldtop
It's a good thing for me that I am too crazy to notice.
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@Vader
No, he calls me a troll.
And indeed, trolling is a fishing term.
Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
I can't be offended at this.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would like to be as accurate as possible, but as long as I am using the medium of creation there is a certain level of inaccuracy that can not be overcome.
The hope is that all these things will eventually lead to theophany.
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@Goldtop
You are doing a bad job keeping your own advice.
Stop feeding the troll, loser.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Watch out dude, it's the Sunday of The Publican and The Pharisee. Lol
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@Stephen
Yes, you know the new testament even better than The Orthodox Church, the very ones who compiled The New Testament and wrote it.
No, you are. simply another haughty wannabe gnostic.
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@keithprosser
I am familiar with the so called problem of evil. The Church fathers ironed this issue out before the heterodox revived the argument through their ignorance.
I am giving you the real answer, as I am Gus. You already know Gus won't accept any answer that doesn't involve total capitulation to his irrational and superstitious aversion to God. You don't have to be dragged down to his level.
On kind of an aside, I recommend the book of Job.
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@Goldtop
You reak of insecurity.
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@keithprosser
I don't truly believe it can be known whether The Ultimate Reality is "mindless", but I can say that the mind I possess is very different than the mind of an ant. How much different must The Mind of God be! It is a mystery.
I think it is important to note that we are using the medium of creation to describe The Uncreated.
And really, there is a limit to knowledge. No matter how smart cosmologists get, they are going to run into the same problem. And in 3000 years, people are probably going to look at their writings and scoff at them in much the same way you might scoff at how ancient theologians described God.
Knowledge =/= The Truth
Utility =/= The Truth
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Knowledge =/= The Truth.
In fact, gnosticism is considered a heresy. Gnosticism is pretty much "knowingism". It is faith in understanding.
And really, I have explained my faith quite thoroughly, probably even moreso to Keith than you as he has been here longer than you.
If you don't believe what I am saying is true, but instead think I mean something other than what I am saying, no amount of me answering questions is going to be satisfactory. I am not intentionally dodging questions.
Keith questions whether The Abrahamic God is The Ultimate Reality. I gave him a legit answer. That answer was, if that is the case, how do you account for me and my testimony?
And truly, if he acknowledges The Ultimate Reality, he acknowledges the existence of God, but he denies God as God in order that the scripture be fulfilled...
"because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
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From the Epistle of James The Just, Brother of Jesus.
"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
It is better to choose The Truth, which is life than sin which is death.
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God's word is The Truth.
What that means is that The Truth is what is good, and Christian morality is about abiding in The Truth.
The alternative is idolatry, which is put before The Truth.
For example..
Pride
Envy
Greed
Sloth
Gluttony
Wrath
Lust
A sin is to "miss the mark", and what is it that these sins cause js to miss the mark from? Abiding in The Truth.
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@keithprosser
You aren't going to accept what the church teaches, so what then will you accept?
As far as I can see, you will only accept the denial of free will or the denial of God's omniscience.
And really, these are retroactive justifications for denying God, even though you claim to believe in The Ultimate Reality, which is God.
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@keithprosser
That has nothing to do with my question and you know it.
I insist that The Ultimate Reality is God, and this is what Orthodoxy teaches, a religion you would say has The Abrahamic God.
How do you explain this?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My religion is Truth worship. Does that not make it clear that I care about what is true?
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@keithprosser
Well, if it wasn't the case, how do you explain me?
I think I know my faith better than you.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am saying that everything is contingent on The Ultimate Reality.
Without that there is no universe. Everything was brought into being because The Ultimate Reality is there.
Disgusted doesn't believe there is an ultimate reality, therefore he doesn't believe that there is anything that is ultimately real. If that isn't nihilism, I don't know what is.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well, I hope you one day come to your senses and depart from such wickedness.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
These are not so much claims about The Truth so much as claims about the nature of our relationship to The Truth. Specifically as worshippers of The Truth.
It's really about the relationship.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Goldtop and Disgusted are nihilists.
Are you a nihilist? I hope not. I'll have you know that there is nothing reasonable about nihilism.
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@disgusted
You have an icon you call truth.
As it is written in St Paul's letter to the Colossians...
"He is the image(Greek word Ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."
And that is why iconoclasm is a heresy, and what is nihilism but an extreme form of iconoclasm?
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@keithprosser
A nihilist like disgusted is not a truth seeker.
Are you going to put yourself in the same category as him?
As my God is The Truth, to call an atheist a truth seeker makes no sense. An atheist doesn't believe in truth.
And maybe you know that is stupid, but you still identify yourself as an atheist. I can't imagine this comes from anything other than being too prideful to repent from this error.
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@keithprosser
I don't believe that you posting irrelevent and inappropriate "sources" gives legitimacy to your alleged problem of evil.
I see no problem. It isn't because I'm blind. It's because you are blind that you see the problem of evil. You don't know what evil is. If you did, you'd know that denying God is evil.
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@keithprosser
There is no problem of evil. The problem is in people who have a morality based off an arbitrary sense of aesthetics rather than purity of heart.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I think that Truth worship stands on its own.
But really, it was Truth worship that ended up leading me to Orthodoxy, because this is the essence of the faith. It was nice to find the church that has been doing it for 2000 years. They have quite the library of material built up over that period.
And my experience is as personal as anyone's walk.
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@keithprosser
I don't need to admit anything of the sort.
Disgusted is not interested in understanding anything, he is a nihilist. After watching him for so long, you'd have to be blind not to notice.
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@disgusted
You are the proof of your nihilism.
You don't believe in proof though, you're a nihilist.
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