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Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.

Would "actively taught at a very suggestible age" be among these reasons?

This is often how american Christianity is transmitted.

The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation.

Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 

Are you saying you think many people who living with a belief knowing it's not true are doing so out of personal discomfort with the alternative?

Do you recognize any bigoty in your opinions and beliefs?

No, I don't. And if you are trying to deceptively infer such, it is telling why you don't come out and make a statement to that effect. 

Do you recognize that you purposely stir up ill-feelings and center out Christians in the process?

I recognise the fact that Christians (even if through guilt by association) have for years insulted, assaulted, offended and hurt others in society who do not share their bigoted and hate-filled views as well of course, stir up ill-feelings amongst those who are normal, decent members of society.

And you have the nerve to patronizingly try and make out that I am guilty of such?

Is exposing the blatant bigotry, vilification, and hate by Christians towards minority groups bigotry, vilification, and hate itself?

No, it isn't.

And, I will tell you something else for nothing.

Just as bad, if not worse than the inground bigotry, vilification and hate by Christians are the slimy, jelly-kneed individuals who crawl out of the woodwork to make sneering, veiled inferences and question critics of their distasteful and idiosyncratic beliefs without even having the guts to actually state anything themselves.

Because, of course, they have absolutely no valid retort whatsoever in their defense.

Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.

Would "actively taught at a very suggestible age" be among these reasons?

This is often how american Christianity is transmitted.

The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation. 

Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 

Are you saying you think many people who living with a belief knowing it's not true are doing so out of personal discomfort with the alternative? 

Words are a funny thing. My thoughts are that words sometimes express what we feel most deeply in our hearts. I would say from all your postings that focus on Christianity that you hold ill feelings, hurt, and anger towards Christians, sometimes disguised in a nonchalant, sometimes in a provocative manner. 

Let's just look at the big difference here.

Christians actively preach bigotry and hatred to minority groups. They deliberately stir up ill feelings, hurt in anger among those they attack, e.g. abortionists, gays, and assisted death advocates.

So, if you somehow get the feeling that it is me who unilaterally holds ill feelings, hurt and anger towards Christians, I say to you..... tough titties!

Both are loghtbearers. Both have a face that is part feminine in elegance, part masculine in chiseled features. Both are persuasive, rebellious and stand for justice as an end in itself.

All worldviews start with presuppositions.

How do we choose which to start with?

And what accounts for the change in the way people assess their own suppositions, given that many people move from one to another (allowing of course that "I don't know" is in fact a presupposition according to your terms, which I disagree with)?

"....to give hope and make sense of existence and life's most important questions...."

You mean: to give false (yes, it is false) hope through the used of guilt and fear of a promised afterlife.

"Perhaps for most a big factor but not necessarily false, depending on the belief system" 

Who are you kidding? All religions are based on false premises.

"Or because of trying to find meaning without first presupposing God is a fools errand. I challenge you to try and establish meaning and I'll test you on how you know and why your limited subjective view is any better than any other."

If Religious followers did not have the limited subjective view (that they are proven to have) they would not presuppose God in the first place.

"So says the fool, according to the Bible. I would agree with that assessment since a person's limited mind cannot know there is no God. They would have to be all-knowing to determine that, and it would be easy to show they are not all-knowing, thus they fail to provide what is necessary for knowing such things." 

It looks so nice reciting religious rhetoric doesn't it?

But you are really insulting the intelligence of anybody with more than half a brain who have done their research to discover it is half-wits who try to preach a load of superstitious, mythological crap to the rest of the world on the false pretexts that it is true and they are not deluded.

Do you know that Jesus was described as the following

2 Thessalonians 1:7

and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-7.html

this blazing Jesus metaphor comes in more in the Bible especially when he contrasts himself to darkness constantly as well as explicitly refering to his aura as blazing and his energy as fiery.

Lucifer was smited down and reborn as Jesus. This is an absolute fact that I believe strongly in. I am certain that Jesus was Samael AKA Lucifer, if the Bible is true.

You know you are posting garbage.

Yes, I will have to concede that one to you.

I do care about Christians.

In fact, every home should have one.

They look so cute with those forced smiles on their faces and that low, soft, monotonous way of speaking.

I don't care too much about all that constant looking over their shoulders though.

I just want you to know that there is someone who cares about you.

Not me, but there must be someone.

Reasons To Believe In God:

 * To take control over and manipulate others for one's own self-serving ends.

 * For cultural or family pressure reasons through naivety, gullibility or vulnerability.

 * Out of sheer ignorance and arrogance to satisfy a selfish distorted ego.

Reason Not To Believe In God:

 * There is no God.

If you believe there is no reason why you exist why do you hold to a particular worldview that believes humanity is a chance, freak, accident but live inconsistently with such a worldview when you make things matter?

This is pretty presumptuous! How do I live inconsistently with my worldview, exactly? Things matter TO ME. I don't think they matter to the universe.

I assign this meaning, and the things that mean something to me are subject to change. 

You live inconsistently when you keep looking for an explanation and meaning for life. Why should there be any?

I don't keep looking for an "explanation" or  "meaning" for life. There isn't a default meaning for everyone, if there were, such a proposition causes an issue for your worldview: Jeffrey Epstein was meant by god to live his life as a terrible monster.

Harvey Weinstein was only fulfilling his godly purpose.

I don't think there is any capital letter Meaning to Life. Please explain the meaning of your life in this context.

Why are you on such a forum debating such things or at least trying to throw a monkey wrench into a belief that you oppose and believe is wrong? Why should you care? What does it matter? Can you answer these questions?

In order: bored at work and in search of civil discourse (spoiler, that's pretty fleeting).

I would also distinguish between your belief being WRONG and your belief being INCORRECT and poorly founded. In the end what you believe individually is meaningless and your right. How'd I do? 

It means why do we exist? What is the reason you are here? Why is there something rather than nothing? 

In order: don't know, don't know, and don't know. Without knowing these answers, it's amazing I find my way to work every day! Okay, so what are your answers? 

My sister has bone cancer and it has spread to her head.

I'm really sorry to hear that, man.  

I was born in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia at that time). I like Botswana. I worked in South Africa for a while. That is where my mom was born. 

That is so interesting to know! That helps explain the maturity in  your posts.

When I was in SA, driving on the "wrong" side of the road drove me crazy, but the weather was divine!

I do not want to disturb your faith if you are a believer but recommend you find out what God says and rely on His grace in seeing you through.

If we do not find the Author's meaning we miss what it is that He says. Our faith depends on rightly interpreting His Word otherwise we teach others falsehood.

And what is that God has told you, similarly, how have you rightly interpreted his words  relating to the subject?

My, that was a good series of posts!

Jesus is world renown. 

You know it, and you know you know it!

The Omnipotent, Eternal, Lord of Glory, His Majestic Excellence, King Jesus is world renown!

Went to Botswana recently. While there I visited several towns. Everyone knew Jesus, No one knew Darth Vader.

Yet another unpleasant episode in the history of organised religion is the hideous practice of "conversion therapy". And, there are reports that this cruel pseudo-scientific practice of brainwashing gay church members to change to being heterosexual is still going on.

"Based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the prior assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation" (Wikipedia)

Given that churches still overwhelmingly condone the vilification of gays, isn't it about time we turn the tables to make churches undertake conversion therapy for their bigotry and hatred of homosexuals?

And while we are at it, how about including therapy to rid church folk of their vilification of other minority groups, those of other religions, those of no religion and their cruel anti-euthanasia and anti-abortion stances?

Certainly, salvation is a work of the grace of God, not our own.

However, being that faith without works is dead, functionally not being faith at all, we still have a work here on Earth. To abide in Christ is not to simply agree with Christ, but to conform to the image of Christ that we are all made in. 

That all being the case, we are all called to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. To strive to more perfectly conform to Christ.

Christ be with you!

Wicked as I am, I am doing my best. When I fall, I get back up and try harder.

My conscience is clean. 

My time is short on this forum, so I want to leave with a piece of advice to all Christian posters.

When someone is rude, respond with kindness.

When you feel like making fun of the person you are talking to, or insulting them for being particularly dense, don't do it. It hurts your witness. Be patient. Long suffering. 

People are rarely converted by arguments and such. Without love, it doesn't matter if you know everything. You won't be heard.

BE CHARITABLE.

Remember, you are not The Holy Spirit. You can not save anyone. Your job is to plant seeds. Seeds that you may never see grow. Be content with that.

If you call yourself a Christian, and do not engage with a spirit of love, you are doing more harm than good. It would be better if you worked on yourself before trying to proselytize.

Truly, Christ is best witnessed by someone who walks in the way. Being a good Christian is the best witness. 

Have faith in divine judgment. Don't be lead astray by passion or insecurity. Become less so that Christ is magnified.

Will you slip up? It happens. Don't excuse yourself, simply correct course.

Aquire the spirit of peace, and thousands around you will be saved.

Do you KNOW God that way? Can you disprove God?

He's in books. Darth Vader's in books. Why do we know him as a fictional character? His story takes place a long time ago in a different galaxy.

Can you PROVE the story was not transmitted directly to George Lucas? Because I have a picture with Darth Vader, like a real one who was walking around. Do YOU have a real picture with God? Seems like I have personal proof of Darth Vader being real to me.

How can Darth Vader be equal? 

He is in books, he is in movies, he is in academic studies, he has magic powers.

Okay, so he's not nice like people say Jesus was. But he's equal to Jesus in this way, but he's better than Jesus when it comes to having a space ship.

There's plenty of evidence that Darth Vader is at least as real as Jesus.

I am being only slightly facetious.

You religious types aren't exactly world renowned for your sense of humor about stuff like this. :)

Both of us appeal to authority. Do you believe that?

No. I look at the information that's independently verifiable and make a conclusion.

 I could give a few that are unreasonable, like an illusion or everything is just my mind creating it.

How did you rule these OUT?

 how many do know about Him yet do not know Him. 

<br>

I can say the same about Darth Vader. More people know about him, discuss him and the universe he lives in, than know him.

THerefore he is equal to Jesus. 

Can you think of any other reasonable possibility that you would like to discuss with me? If you think there are other reasonable starting points for our existence then please list them. 

I asked how you know those are the only two possibilities. You said "Well do you have any better ideas."

This is essentially how I see your entire argument, and why it's so unconvincing. You cannot explain how you arrive even at this dichotomy when I inquire directly. How you know there's only chance or creation?

You seem rather certain so it should be easy to explain.

Not "I believe the two most likely options are," no, you KNOW, right? All I'm asking is for an explanation of how, considering both you and I have witnessed the birth of exactly the same number of universes. 

The Christian religion is reasonable and logical and I argue necessary in making sense of existence. 

How is Christianity superior to other religions?

There are only two reasonable possibilities, we exist due to design or chance happenstance, creation or chance, intent or indifference.

How are you certain these are the only possibilities? Start there and then make your argument. 

X makes sense for it is logically consistent and reasonable to believe.

This is distinctly different from "x is true."

Yes, fifteen threads in three days is a lot to handle. It would be for me a full-time job to conscientiously answer my critics with this many threads. 

That is because you care about engagement and communication. You don't post out of bitterness and petty spite. You want your posters to understand, even if they don't believe.

Some people don't care about those things at all. They are like the demonstrators yelling "killer! Killer!" Over and over, not caring what their opponent says.

Good debate on that other thread with Ludo. Interesting intellectual stuff.

I've already made my points on other threads, there's no reason to do it again as far as 'making sense of existence' goes. You're only saying X cause put life here and set all this up. That doesn't 'make sense' as much as it 'provides cause.' Making sense' is why, not how.

Please feel free to make your point about Christianity being true without referring to any other religion, though. Using the claim as the evidence is a poor start.

Yes, it is arguing my case. It is an argument in making sense of a worldview that excludes God

Can you make your argument without referring to any other worldview to do so? This way you're not saying "Mine doesn't make sense all the way either, but I think yours makes less sense, therefore mine is correct". Consider it an open challenge, much like "disprove the greek pantheon without reference to Christianity." 

What you never explain is what "making sense of existence" means, in practical terms.

I'm ont getting into it again, there's plenty of other places we've had this argument. TLDR: "I exist because Jesus" is not how I understand the phrase "making sense of."

It's assigning credit without sufficient demonstration, and even if it were true, it doesn't "make sense of" anything, it simply says "this is what caused something."

That's not arguing your case. It's arguing against whatever you think mine is. What you never explain is what "making sense of existence" means, in practical terms. I'm ont getting into it again, there's plenty of other places we've had this argument. TLDR: "I exist because Jesus" is not how I understand the phrase "making sense of." It's assigning credit without sufficient demonstration, and even if it were true, it doesn't "make sense of" anything, it simply says "this is what caused something."

15 threads in 3 days and counting. Who else could it be?

The Christian religion is reasonable and logical and I argue necessary in making sense of existence. 

You never ARGUE this. You say it then don't explain any of the ways you 'make sense' of it. We've gone through it like six times now. I gave up because I don't think you're using "make sense" in the way I understand that phrase. 

As futile as it was with Willows. Yeah, that's him. Lol.

The only people who are going to claim that one religion is right over the others are those with a bias.  Religion switching is rare unless it's from some other religion to a christian one, or from christianity to atheism/agnosticism.

Fact: Not one of these facts are referenced or linked, just asserted.

That is what Salixes does. Assert. He doesn't debate, doesn't support, doesn't defend. His only care is to insult Christianity, no matter how silly the insult.

He's made ten threads in the last 3 days. 10. Has he debated in any one of them? No, he responds to each rebut with another round of unsupported assertions against Christianity while his thread topic languishes.

But can any poster respond to ten threads in 3 days, with multiple people responding? And it's ten now, but already today he's added 2 more.

He's aware of this PGA, and doesn't care. Like the compulsive who keeps washes his hands 30 times a day, he can't stop, and cares nothing about the responses he gets as long as they allow another opportunity to take another poke at Christianity.

Compulsion is insidious.

Fact: The Bible is an unreliable, unverified source of information and is riddled with mistakes, anecdotal accounts It is by no means authoritative and is classified as a reference book.

Fact: The morals as outlined in Biblical scripture are draconian, barbaric, primitive, corrupt and well behind the times by hundreds of years.

Fact: Properly conducted independent research studies around the world have confirmed that the IQ of theists is lower because of restriction of education by religious institutions.

FACT: Not one science "was in fact the result of the investigation........"

I challenge you to name one science that is.

FACT: An atheist is quite entitled to say with certainty that there is no God due to the complete lack of evidence whatsoever of the presence of God or any other supernatural phenomena.

FACT: Theists have no right at all and are talking erroneously to claim that there is a God due to the complete lack of evidence whatsoever of the presence of God or any other supernatural phenomena.

FACT: Christian religious institutions encourage elitism to their followers by instilling the belief that they are special and that God has a blueprint for their individual life. Also, that the Christian religion is the "only" religion and that anyone not following such a doctrine is inferior and condemned to an afterlife of damnation.

FACT: Theists have lower IQs than atheists and has been proven so.

FACT: You have failed to back up any of your outrageous, arrogant and flippantly mocking claims.

FACT: Christians have been persecuted for centuries. And, for good reason.

Apparently so.

Numerous, authoritative studies have revealed that those who are religious followers have lower IQs than atheists.

“It is well established that religiosity correlates inversely with intelligence,” (Richard Daws and Adam Hampshire, Imperial College London)

Some findings indicate that, on an international level, countries with more intelligent people tend to have more atheists.

Other reports suggest that religion is an instinct and people who can rise above instincts are more intelligent than those who rely on them.

Yet more telling studies have shown that because religious institutions shun followers from acquiring knowledge that may contradict their belief (for example, scientific studies), the chances of religious followers gaining a balanced knowledge base are stifled, therefore producing lower IQs.  

I think you will find that the so-called "standards" are in place in most states and societies.

There are laws that cover vilifying minority groups such as homosexuals.

For example: the well documented case of Kimberley Davis who refused to issue marriage licences to gays "under God's authority"; She was ultimately jailed for contempt of court.

There are many other cases of Christians vilifying minority groups in the name of God.

Christian Churches openly document their vilification of homosexuals and their so-called "standards" are at complete odds with those of decent, law-abiding societies

Fact; Christian Churches incite hatred towards homosexuals.

Fact: Christians habitually display hatred against homosexuals.

I have often heard the excuse from Christians "But I don't follow those rules, it's my Church, not me".

Surely, if one subscribes to an organisation that openly preaches hatred towards others, one is just as guilty through association.

My "interpretation or feelings" regarding the Bible being full of fable or myth is pure fact.

For example, there is not one piece of evidence that verifies the myth of Noah and the Ark.

I was not talking generically about how the Bible is interpreted.

Let me be quite specific.

Christian Churches have openly laid down rules to its followers that homosexuality is not acceptable to the extent of prohibiting marriage between homosexuals, refusing baptism to homosexuals or even allowing homosexuals to be Church members.

It is Churches, not particular Christians who use written verse for their own ends to actively incite hatred towards minority groups including those of other faiths and homosexuals.

The point I'm making is that Christians have a habit of cherry-picking rules from the Bible (even the NT) to suit their own preconceptions or phobias.

For example, you will find references to "going after strange flesh" and Jesus preaching marriage only between opposites sexes in the New Testament. Christians latch onto that one and suck it for all its worth but when it comes to:

Gouge out your eyeball:  (Matthew 5:29)

I don't think you will find many homophobes who have ripped out an eye for looking at a woman.

Aside from the subject though, is a rule completely at odds with itself:

Do not give heed to fables (1.TIM 1:4)

To my mind, such a dictum is telling the reader "don't believe anything in this book".