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@3RU7AL
History is replete with examples of where one people conquer another and when that happens the laws of the land change.Exactly.How do you declare this is unjust in some cases, but 100% justified in other cases? For example, [LINK]
Two ways, by an objective standard (that God has revealed) and because the conquerers are or are not acting in a just way. Hitler's invasion was unjust. His cause was unjust. He needed to be stopped. Thank goodness there were the means to do so.
When God brings a people/nation to justice He has the means to restore to a better life and innocent life that was taken.
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@3RU7AL
And even today, poisoning thousands of people to death is generally not considered "murder".Where is this the case, other than some dictator doing it and where the International Criminal Court condemns the dictator's actions as wrong?Try this, [LINK]
A movie with a poetic license regarding real life? What was the story based on?
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@ludofl3x
When you compare Star Wars, Harry Potter, and The Matrix to the Bible I challenge you on your assertions.I didn't assert that these were true. I said the only material I see between these stories and the biblical story is age. You have not disputed that save by essentially saying "No one believes those are true." The majority of the planet does not believe the bible's true either.
You have opened up a big can of worms here. First, you are using the Argumentum ad Populum, also known as Appeal to the People, Appeal to the Majority, Appeal to the Gallery, Appeal to Popular Prejudice, Appeal to the Mob, Appeal to the Multitude, Argument from Consensus, Argumentum ad Numerum.
You are asserting that the same kind of evidence is available in these accounts that are available in the biblical accounts. For one, where are the prophetic accounts and where do they relate to the historical evidence? For goodness sake, Star Wars is a fantasy set in the future. Where do you find evidence of such creatures, planets, peoples? We know the author and where does the author show his story-line corresponds to any facts about the future?
Only the biblical account regarding the resurrection.Exactly my point. You pick one that you believe, while eschewing any others that make the same claim because you recognize it as impossible in every other situation. It seems to me that it's on you to prove that it actually happened once, in the book of myths you choose, and never happened in any of the other myths / religions who make the same claim (resurrection). There must be some compelling reason.
You mentioned in Post 22 "Is there any other book wherein someone comes back to life and you believe it's real, or is the bible the only one?"
You picked it. I believe and at times defend it with evidence.
Where is the same claim made and what is the evidence of such a claim?
As for it happening once, is the evidence reasonable? That thought goes beyond that proposition. It goes to whether evidence for God is reasonable to believe. It goes to the alternative which is blind, indifferent happenstance as the explanation of why something exists.
When you claim the Bible is a book of myths it is up to you to back up that statement with reasonable and logical evidence since you are making the assertion, the claim.
"if someone had thought ow rite"Based on a true story" in front of the first Harry POtter book, you'd have to at least allow for the possibility that it's true."Your main argument seems to be that "no one believes those are real / everyone knows those are stories." My point is that if someone had claimed them true, you'd see that as evidence that they were true.
No, not everyone knows them as just stories. Little children believe them true. So do the gullible and dim-witted. My point is on what evidence would I see them as true. I know one of the authors and I know she does not see them as true. Not so with the biblical accounts. These people went to their deaths believing they had seen the risen Messiah.
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@ethang5
Of course, just like the Democrats, many sway public opinion with nonsense, IMO.And like the democrats, they will find that the public isn't nearly as dumb as they think it is.
I hope you are right!
I don't understand how there are so many Dems who are willing to follow the lying media and their political leaders over the cliff. Their focus is so myopic that I find it unbelievable that they can be so gullible. Can you believe Shiff, Pelosi, or Nadler? The whole process is rigged and the President has not been given due process under the law. This is criminal, and I'm not even an American. (^8
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@3RU7AL
Why can't actions be based on both conditioned responses such as some feelings and desires that create pleasure [AND PAIN] as well as [*]choices[*] that lead to conditioned responses?Because every adult "choice" is based on a previous childish "choice" which is traceable to (EITHER) feelings (OR) desires.
So are you saying an adult can't choose something for themselves that is not based on a childhood choice? I think this is a hasty generalization, thus pure fallacy.
While I will agree that our choices are governed by our worldview bias we still make them. We see the evidence and we weigh it along with our beginning presuppositions - God or chance happenstance. That is our dividing line.
Every "choice" you make runs just like a perfectly logical computer program that god wrote when you were created with all of your FEELINGS and DESIRES at the beginning of time.
That is not the biblical revelation. That revelation is that humanity chose to do their own thing, chose to ignore what God said was good, thus they chose to open the door to evil. Their choice in Adam was evil since it opened the door to relativism and chose to do contrary to what was good.
You can only make a "free" "choice" if you remove all of your FEELINGS and DESIRES.
I'm not arguing for freedom of the will, I'm arguing that even though our wills are in bondage to sin, in bondage to doing things that God has said is wrong, we CHOOSE to do them anyway. Thus, humanity's inhumanity follows from our actions and our wills.
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@3RU7AL
The native tribes within the land (the New World) were judged by Thog to be unholy and sinful and a bad influence on the European immigrants.And what evidence do you have of this happening?
While these are unjust laws, in that the native American was treated unfairly, as a non-person or non-citizen of the country, what evidence do you have that this was judged by Thog, other than your hearsay?
How did Thog record this and where is it recorded as coming from Thog?
History is replete with examples of where one people conquer another and when that happens the laws of the land change.
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@3RU7AL
You waffled between "follow the law of the land" and "an eye for an eye" and "separation from god".I explained some of the similarities and differences between the Ten Commandments and the man-made laws of the land.But you neglected to specify an "objective" punishment.
Are you expecting to find an objective punishment in a relative world? The fact is that most nations throughout time have recognized murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong. So, even though they recognize this they are inconsistent in their punishment.
Can you name a nation that does not have a law against murder?Murder has been defined zillions of different ways throughout history.Revenge killing was often not considered "murder".
By a society or person? An eye for an eye where a crime is established and justified.
Duels to the death were (until relatively recently) not considered "murder".
So, are you saying that murder was not recognized within these societies or that this was an exception to the rule and this was considered outside the rule of murder since both parties were able to defend themselves and chose to settle the outcome in this manner? What would happen if one party decided not to engage and the other decided to kill them?
And even today, poisoning thousands of people to death is generally not considered "murder".
Where is this the case, other than some dictator doing it and where the International Criminal Court condemns the dictator's actions as wrong?
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@3RU7AL
You failed to mention the specific (modern-day, earthly) punishments for each one.No, I gave examples yet I did not list the punishment of every nation for such crimes.You waffled between "follow the law of the land" and "an eye for an eye" and "separation from god".
I explained some of the similarities and differences between the Ten Commandments and the man-made laws of the land. Can you name a nation that does not have a law against murder?
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@ludofl3x
Can you prove the Scriptures are fiction?It's not on me to prove that a book wherein the entirety of earth's animal and insect populations were somehow herded two by two into a boat and survived for forty days is TRUE.
When you compare Star Wars, Harry Potter, and The Matrix to the Bible I challenge you on your assertions.
As all scientific knowledge we have today would show this as impossible, it'd be on the person who says that no, it actually happened (this is you, now), to prove how this extraordinary claim is true. Is there any other book wherein someone comes back to life and you believe it's real, or is the bible the only one?
Only the biblical account regarding the resurrection.
According to you and to EtnrlView, it seems if someone had thought ow rite"Based on a true story" in front of the first Harry POtter book, you'd have to at least allow for the possibility that it's true. That seems a dangerous way to go through life.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. What does this mean - "if someone had thought ow rite"Based on a true story" in front of the first Harry POtter book, you'd have to at least allow for the possibility that it's true."
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@ethang5
I've gone down this road too many times and no one sticks with the discussion.Because none of them are interested in actual debate. All they want is a podium to spew invectives at God.
Of course, just like the Democrats, many sway public opinion with nonsense, IMO.
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@3RU7AL
But no specific punishments for specific crimes?The specific crimes revolve around the Ten Commandments and our interactions with humanity and with God.I got that part.You failed to mention the specific (modern-day, earthly) punishments for each one.
No, I gave examples yet I did not list the punishment of every nation for such crimes.
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@3RU7AL
And what evidence do you have of this happening?The native tribes within the land (the New World) were judged by Thog to be unholy and sinful and a bad influence on the European immigrants.
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@3RU7AL
Does not the little child make a picture for their parents because it is thinking of them and wants to please them?Sure, children do all of these things.BUT DO THEY "CHOOSE" WHO THEY LOVE?
Not all the time. Kindness or patience is a choice. Wishing the best for someone is a choice. Not keeping a grudge is a choice. They can choose to be kind (thus loving) to a stranger.
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@3RU7AL
Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?Maybe. Remorse, guilt, or love, the feeling or conviction that the other person deserves your best.(IFF) your actions are based on your feelings-and-desires (AND) you don't "choose" your feelings-and-desires (THEN) you don't "choose" your actions (you are a feelings-and-desires puppet).
Why can't actions be based on both conditioned responses such as some feelings and desires that create pleasure as well as choices that lead to conditioned responses? If you know something is wrong or causes pain you may choose not to do it time after time until it becomes a conditioned response.
I burn my fingers on a hot stove element and I choose not to do that again. It is not desirable. Every time I'm near the hot element I choose not to put my fingers near the element or take cautions until it becomes an automatic response. Every once in a while, I might choose to risk burning my fingers to remove a piece of food that falls on or near the element instead of using a tool that is not handy.
This type of action is behavioural. It represents what does happen or what is, thus it is not a moral or ought choice or response. Behaviourism is an 'is' choice.
An ought choice is based on a moral obligation or duty of what should be, not personal taste or feelings but on an objective right or wrong outside of such feelings and desires. We may not want to follow the rule of "Do not murder" because we feel angry with someone but we understand it is something we ought not to do since we would not want someone to do that to us. We may also feel or empathize as to why something is wrong. But the moral is not based on our personal tastes, preferences, feelings or desires but on a known wrong. For those who do not know it is wrong to murder, we call them psychopaths, mentally unstable, or deranged.
Usually, when we speak of objective morality we speak not of feelings but of duties and obligations we understand as right or wrong.
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@ludofl3x
The Scriptures verify themselves to a great extent.<br>
I'm not familiar with this abbreviation although I see you cut the rest of my reply.
So does The Matrix, Star Wars and Harry Potter.
Are you serious? We know they are all fictional works. Can you prove the Scriptures are fiction? Not only this, I've only seen Star Wars but I doubt the rest claim themselves to be the authority of authorities nor our Creator to my knowledge.
That doesn't mean what they verify about themselves is real. We've had a very long discussion on claims versus evidence, specifically the problem with using the claim as the evidence. This is what you usually are doing, in my experience.
The thing is I'm not trying to present evidence at the moment. I'm just responding to your claims as unreasonable.
If I wanted to present evidence I would start with prophecy and the reason to believe the dating of the biblical writings was before the evidenced prophesied and match them up with what we know historically. There are hundreds of different avenues I could go to in presenting reasonable evidence for the biblical position. One of these avenues I use to show the inconsistency of a particular worldview - atheism - is by trying to get those who hold this view to make sense of morality.
Evidence
1.
a. A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment
b. Something indicative; an indication or set of indications
2. Law
a. The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects.
b. The set of legal rules determining what testimony, documents, and objects may be admitted as proof in a trial.
To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove
in evidence
1. Plainly visible; to be seen
2. Law As legal evidence
All these definitions apply to biblical evidence. What is your objection?
Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.
Legal definition - HEARSAY EVIDENCE. The evidence of those who relate, not what they know themselves, but what they have heard from others.
2. As a general rule, hearsay evidence of a fact is not admissible. If any fact is to be substantiated against a person, it ought to be proved in his presence by the testimony of a witness sworn or affirmed to speak the truth.
3. There are, however, exceptions to the rule. 1. Hearsay is admissible when it is introduced, not as a medium of proof in order to establish a distinct fact, but as being in itself a part of the transaction in question, when it is a part of the res gestae.
If you have extra-biblical verification of any of the bible's supernatural claims, I'd be interested.
I've gone down this road too many times and no one sticks with the discussion. I'm involved in a debate right now but if you are interested in disputing the reasonableness of biblical prophetic evidence I will set up a formal debate after the current debate I am involved in is done.
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@3RU7AL
When did you "choose" to love them?When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.Are you suggesting that you don't love someone until you "choose" to "sacrifice yourself"?
By sacrifice, I mean placing the needs of others before your own needs, thinking of them first.
Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?
Maybe. Remorse, guilt, or love, the feeling or conviction that the other person deserves your best. Your conscious may prod you or make you feel guilty that you ate the whole cake that was baked not only for you but for the whole family or your feelings may lead you to bake the cake for your family for their momentary joy and happiness.
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@3RU7AL
When did you "choose" to love them?Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love.I see. So is it your opinion that a small child cannot love?
No.
Little children sometimes show the most innocent kind of love, without ulterior motives.
Does your little child not seek you out and does that child not want to spend time with you and hug you just because they value you, not because of something you can do for them?
Does not the little child try to protect their mother from potential harm from someone by placing themselves between their mother and that person threatening the mother, not themselves as their first priority?
Does not the little child make a picture for their parents because it is thinking of them and wants to please them?
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@3RU7AL
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.You treat "others" as either allies or enemies. The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself.Just like how the Israelites treated the Moabites!! SEE! it's 100% BIBLICAL!!
Which reference(s) are you alluding to in Scripture?
God brought judgment via Israel like He brought various judgments on nations for their wrongful actions that were heaped to the limit of His tolerance. He also told Israel to remove from the land those who practice sorcery and idolatry that these people would not influence Israel and turn them away from God. Israel was disobedient and they continually had problems by not obeying God completely.
The tribes within the land were judged by God to be unholy and sinful and a bad influence on Israel.
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@3RU7AL
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.Please be slightly more specific.We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God.But no specific punishments for specific crimes?
The specific crimes revolve around the Ten Commandments and our interactions with humanity and with God. It is wrong to steal. It is wrong to lie. It is wrong to covet. It is wrong to murder. It is wrong to practice sexual immorality. We may have to answer for such wrongs within human law but also before the Father in heaven.
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@ludofl3x
There really is very little point in arguing the obscurities and inconsistencies and sheer volume of dumb stuff in the bible with believers, you know, you're wasting your time. There's more than one believer here who can demonstrate just how contorted they can be in order to believe it's all actually true. My point is believers don't believe, in general, based on the bible, just as atheists don't disbelieve based on the bible.
Not really. The Scriptures verify themselves to a great extent.
John 7:38 King James Version has Jesus saying:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."" as the scripture has said"Where do the scripture actually say " out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."?What scripture says this? Is it from the Old Testament scripture or from earlier in the New Testament by another one of the gospel writers?
This is a metaphorical language. We are not going to have literal streams or rivers of water coming out of our bellies or inner being.
Jesus likens Himself as the water of life, that those who drink from Him will never thirst.
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Water meant life and Jesus was saying that those who believe in Him would have an abundance of water, so much water that out of his/her inner being or belly there would be an abundance of life.
Next, the argument could be made for the wrong emphasis placed on the John 7:39 passage above. There are two nuances that can be derived from this passage. The emphasis may not so much be on the water but on Jesus and the Spirit. He is the source and is likened to water. The emphasis can also be placed on "he who believes in Me" [Jesus] as the teaching that Jesus wants the reader to understand. The Scriptures speak of Jesus in many places as the only means God has given of eternal life. It also speaks of the Spirit of life. The Spirit gives life.
“The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
His word is the truth and believing in it gives life. Out of believing in Him and what He has said (His word) pours forth rivers of living water that fills the belly or the innermost being of the believer.
Now for the passage and its greater context:
33 Therefore Jesus said, “For a little while longer I am with you, then I go to Him who sent Me. 34 You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come.” 35 The Jews then said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He? 36 What is this statement that He said, ‘You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come’?”
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jesus tells His disciples and the Jews He is only with them for a little longer. He tells the crowd that if anyone is thirsty come to Him and drink. He and the Spirit are the subject and object of quenching their thirst. Jesus says those that believe in Him that He is the source of life, to come to Him to drink and He will satisfy them. The living waters reference the Spirit who elsewhere is said to be the Spirit of life. He gives life to many, thus the source is like a river of life that fills our innermost being and extends to many. The Spirit was to be poured out on many. Jesus is also likened to be poured out like water.
I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
Jesus poured out His life that others may have life.
Now for the Spirit references:
Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God.
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
The new birth also has references to water.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Thus you get rivers of living waters poured out by God through the Spirit on those who believe in Jesus who fills the innermost being.
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
John the Baptist said,
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
***
Finally,
[ The River and the Tree of Life ] Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
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@3RU7AL
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?Are you familiar with the complete Dead Sea Scrolls?
No, I have browsed through them online. You?
Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
These are many, many writings. They cover a period of time. Some authenticate, others do not. Yes, it meets the experiential test. The writings cover before the fall of Jerusalem yet they confirm the prophecies concerning the fall of and the collapse of the OT economy and covenantal system of Israel over and over again. They also confirm the NT in many ways, such as the promised Messiah and prophetic fulfillment.
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@3RU7AL
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY(3) PROTECT YOUR LANDThe keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others?These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.You treat "others" as either allies or enemies. The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself. I'm pretty sure Kim Jong-un feels this way. The opposition is not tolerated and is eliminated by either jail, death, barring others from entering North Korea, or by his propaganda machine. Why, he even went so far as to murder his half brother and other relatives, murder some of his closest military advisors, and so on. Kim Jong-un has very few allies, only those who think along the same lines as he does and who do not mind using political and military force to achieve an aim.
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@3RU7AL
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"What about the people who raised you from birth?When did you "choose" to love them?
Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love. It is kind, it is protective, it wants the best for others, it does not seek its own wants first, it hates evil and loves what is true and right and just. It is patient with others.
What about the first person you "fell in love with"?
Are you talking about the physical attraction of agape love?
When did you "choose" to love them?
When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.
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@3RU7AL
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.Please be slightly more specific.
We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God. The principle of as you sow you reap is an example, so is also the principle of God allowing a limited amount of sin before judgment. Sometimes our wrongful actions affect those closest to us. Regardless of whether this is so or not, when we die we are accountable before God for our moral wrongs. We are either accountable by our own merit or accountable through the merit of another - His Son who died on behalf of believers.
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@3RU7AL
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste.You're missing the point.Liking a particular food is not a "choice". It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.
It can be a choice but I understand the behavioural part that influences choices. That is my point about ought from is.
Liking a particular activity ("good" or "bad") is not a "choice". It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.
Joe likes hunting people. Is that a choice or an instinct based on personal experience? Whenever morality is involved you go from the is to the ought. Now, if morality is just a biological instinct, then how can you say it is wrong? It is just a biological impulse driven by environment and heredity. What is wrong with that? Everything is determined. There is no choice.
Are you willing to go there? Going there means that what Hitler did was not evil, just driven by biology and the environment and the way his particular bag of atoms mixed and responded. How can you say that is bad? If it is driven by evolution there is nothing but is, no ought, no moral wrong. Can you live with that? If so, you have no basis for saying what Hitler did was wrong.
(IFF) an all powerful god made humans from scratch, and knew every single factor that would shape their experiences and desires (THEN) that god basically made all of our "choices" before we were even born.
This is just plain wrong. To my mind, it is a fallacy of composition, a fallacy of false dilemma or, affirming the consequent, all rolled into one.
Although God created us with volition, a will, and since He is transcendent over time so He knows all things that happen in the physical realm, He did not make the choices for us. We ourselves make those. So it was not God making the choices but us. We choose to do evil. When Adam chose to disobey, it was God allowing humanity to have an understanding of what evil was by Adam's choice. Adam could have chose to obey or disobey. He made that decision himself. Evil is the lack of light, the lack of understanding that comes from a personal God. If God wanted to He could have created robots that were programmed to do His will but instead He created us in His image and likeness, as personal beings, with the ability to make choices. Sure, those choices are governed by many things that influence our minds, nevertheless, we choose.
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@3RU7AL
What it means is that it explains itself.Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test? What about its test for logical consistency or historical accuracy? Where does it claim its ideas originate? What methods does it use to back these claims up by?
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@3RU7AL
The Word of God.Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment. If we did not have governing authorities in place, which owe their existence to God (He can change them quickly) and depend on whether a society seeks after God or is against Him, there would be no limit to what humanity could do. A just and godly leader applies just and godly principles of justice to his/her reign. An unjust ruler applies his own subjective standards which may include some godly principles and usually does but also greatly harms society by unjust rules of law (off the top of my head I think of abortion).
Now, where is yours?(1) PROTECT YOURSELF(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
The keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others?
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@3RU7AL
Correct. An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?
IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste. A personal taste/choice is different from a moral choice. The one describes; the other prescribes.
"I like ice-cream" describes a personal taste. You like the taste of ice-cream. There is nothing wrong with liking the taste of ice-cream.
The desire for ice-cream is not morally motivated unless it turns to greed or puts the like above others and above God as an idol. If your wife buys ice-cream for a birthday party for your son so that everyone can have a treat and you eating it all so that no one else gets any, that would be greedy and self-serving. It places your desires above others and your choice only takes your wants/desires into consideration. It is not a loving action.
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?
First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"
Are you speaking of the 1 Corinthians 13:7-7 kind of love?
I do not know the first time yet I put a tough principle of love into action now by seeking to discern for you (uncomfortable for some) biblical truths at the risk of perhaps sounding arrogant or being ridiculed and disliked by you or others for speaking plainly. I have spoken from my heart throughout our discussions, answering your questions to the best of my limited ability, hoping the best for you and anyone else reading this, but knowing it is not up to me.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (NASB)
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (ESV)
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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@3RU7AL
Try changing that nature and you will realize you are under bondage.Correct. An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.
Yes, He did know yet He allowed us to find out for ourselves what happens when we reject Him and His goodness. Human history is replete with examples.
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@3RU7AL
Why is what you do good unless there is a standard of best that is our appeal?Where's your standard?
Nice answer!!! You continually talk past me.
The Word of God. Now, where is yours?
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@3RU7AL
God's word is its own interpreter.This statement is pure genius.
I can't take credit for it. (^8
What it means is that it explains itself. We have four gospels that supply various aspects of the life of Jesus. We have numerous epistles that provide information on what was spoken of by Jesus and the OT prophets and writers. Thus we can cross-reference. We can compare one Scripture with another to get a clear understanding of teaching or doctrine.
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@3RU7AL
...provided I interpret it correctly.There it is.There is a correct way to interpret any text.Is there? What would lead you to believe this?
I experience it for one. Logically, for another.
If I want to understand what you have said I have to understand your meaning. It is a fact that there is a correct meaning or else communication would be impossible. Since we understand each other at times we have derived the correct meaning. When our language is ambiguous we ask for clarity. We seek additional information to understand.
The Bible is the Christian's highest authority or should be. We need to understand what God has said and where there are questions as to whether we have or not we need to justify our reasoning as to why it is the case.
You must understand the author's meaning to correctly intepret.How can you know exactly how much certainty is warranted?
How? By studying God's word to the point that you are not swayed by every wind of doctrine or opinion. There is a unity in His word that not too many people understand because they may have not read the Bible from cover to cover or miss the relevant audience of address or misinterpret the time frame. God's word is its own interpreter. Within it are the answers and explanations we seek.
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@3RU7AL
Today, in modern times the lesson is,1) To obey the laws of the land,2) To not hold a grudge personally but to love not only our neighbours but our enemies,3) To not seek an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,4) That these Ten Commandments are still binding but mercy is also at play.Jesus even elaborates on two of them, adultery and what that means, and hatred and anger in relation to murders.5) Jesus has met the letter of the law for the believer. He has satisfied its righteousness on behalf of those who have faith and trust in Him.Nice!So all I have to do is obey the logically incoherent, ever changing, perfectly subjective LAWS OF THE LAND.
The laws of the land are not perfect unless they follow the decrees and commands of God but He has placed those in authority there for a purpose. In turning away from God He allows those who are not just to control the society and the laws reflect injustice. When such laws are made those who are Christians should shine a light on those laws and prayer to God for His mercy. Hopefully, the people who voted or support the unjust leader will change that leadership with the next election. If an election is not possible, such as in China or North Korea for a change of leadership the only option is to shine a light on the unjust practices and prayer in hope that God will change the leadership. By turning to God we adopt laws that are in line with Him.
The rest only applies AFTER DEATH.
The Ten Commandments dealing with humanity should apply in this lifetime too for justice is needed here, not in heaven where there is no sin.
And since I was doing this already, basically "The Bible" is WORTHLESS as a day-to-day-real-world guide to "objective" morality.
Doing what? Do you agree that abortion is a woman's choice?
Why is what you do good unless there is a standard of best that is our appeal? Why should what you do be considered good unless there is such a standard? Can you answer these questions?
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@3RU7AL
This is another RED-HERRING.No, it is not. Whatever I say you will have another objection.Only if you fail to produce a perfectly "objective" set of moral guidelines.Are you sticking with "love"?
Love meets the requirements of the law. Can you meet the requirements? If so, you have no worries. Have you met the requirements of the law - love? Have you ever taken a pen from work home with you? That added to your employer's costs. It also involved taking something that was not yours. You did not buy it and the stationary was not your own, only on loan to you and others while at work. Have you ever taken more of something free than you needed and prevented other people from enjoying the same freebee? See how well you can go without telling a lie, a small peccadillo, for a week. See if you can go one week without having lustful thoughts about a woman who is not your wife for a week. See if you can go without hatred or anger that is not righteous anger in your heart and mind for a week. Now you catch a glimpse of the problem. Try changing that nature and you will realize you are under bondage. It is not in your control to change doing these things completely. You need the grace of God.
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@3RU7AL
You are going to wait a long time since you do not recognize God's standard for humanity. You have not been able to tell me that murder is wrong. You can't even admit it because it gives away your faulty thinking. That is a deficiency in your worldview standard, not mine. Not only this, your belief fails the experiential standard which is can you live with it? If you do not recognize murder as wrong, can you live with some maniac murdering your family members (heaven forbid)?I'm still waiting for your "impartial" "objective" legal code.
I have given some insight into how the world we live in handles most of those Ten Commandments that deal with our relationship with other human beings. Most cultures, societies, subgroups, individuals have a sense of what is right and wrong. They recognize these things as moral wrongs. I have given you reasons why we should not murder each other. We are created in the image and likeness of God. Again, what you do with that claim is up to you and is between you and God.
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@3RU7AL
That does not mean they get out of jail free for their earthly crimes. They still need to serve the sentence.Based on what? What's the "objective" universal rule and prescribed punishment?
Based on human laws and government-sanctioned penalties for breaking such laws.
The universals are based on God's commands. Even without acknowledging God most societies have laws that prohibit murder, stealing, lying. They are not only what we know ourselves (subjective) but also what others know and enforce in most societies (universals).
It's "free" because they merely need to repent (regret) and believe.So you don't believe in second chances. You don't believe in extending mercy to those who have truly changed their behaviour.Do you only believe in second chances AFTER YOU DIE?
No, I do not. Our second chance comes in this life. There is a purpose in this life. We have volition. God has given us a will to choose. Our will is no longer free, since the original sin, but we still choose. We choose what we want, what we desire, and in some cases what we know as right and wrong. Original sin has marred our thinking. It has created flaws in us because we no longer have that close godly perspective where God walks (figuratively speaking) with us, where we experience His presence. Jesus, the Second Adam, restores that relationship lost in Eden for those who will believe, who will covenant with God according to His prescribed manner - the Son. Those who have the Son have life in God. Those who do not
John 3:18-21 (NASB)
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
The sad reality is that you and I, without God's kindness in helping us hear the word, love darkness. We love to do our own thing. We love to do what is contrary to God. That is why Jesus said we must be born again, regenerated, changed from our hatred to God, to see and enter His kingdom and experience His righteousness. The new life is a changed life. We no longer reject His word. We no longer hid from His presence. We no longer deny Him but acknowledge Him.
Mercy should be built into the LAW. Mercy shouldn't be ARBITRARY and based on SUBJECTIVE OPINION.
Then you need an objective source for laws. You need an objective, absolute, unchanging standard; something you do not want to admit to yourself.
Mercy should be "objective" and universal. Mercy should be based on EXPLICIT rules so it can be enforced without BIAS.
Are these explicit?
You shall not murder.
You shall not lie.
You shall not covet another's goods, wife, possessions.
You shall not steal.
You shall not commit adultery.
Honour your parents that your life may be a long life.
I ask you again, it is wrong to murder?
Please tell me that you know the difference between murder and manslaughter or self-defence.
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@3RU7AL
Objective morality must be a set of clear, non-context-sensitive, Quantifiable LOGICALLY COHERENT principles and or specific rules that each have specific, prescribed consequences that have NO EXCEPTIONS.All you've provided are SUBJECTIVE guidelines (no death penalty for cursing a parent) with zero detectable consequences (eternal hellfire + whatever your local government says).The death penalty was a Mosaic law. Prove otherwise?Side note: "YOu can't proove me wrongg!" is an appeal-to-ignorance.
Define proof. I most definitely believe I can prove you wrong on many biblical matters.
What covenant did God make with Israel?
What covenant did Jesus make with humanity?
But you've already said you don't follow strict Mosaic Law.
Jesus met the condition of the law on behalf of believers. That includes the 613 Mosaic laws for Old Covenant Jews and the Ten Commandments on behalf of all humanity. We at least recognize the human aspects of the Ten Commandments, those that apply to humanity, as wrong and even criminal.
The Ten Commandments were included in both covenants. Jesus comes to an Old Covenant people to establish a new covenant.
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
God's kindness in Jesus Christ leads many to a new life and peace with God. Jesus fulfills the old to establish the new covenant yet it is still wrong to murder, lie, steal, covet, commit adultery, worship idols, take God's name in vain.
So Mosaic Law can't possibly be the standard of your hypothetical "objective-morality".
The principles of the Ten Commandments are carried through into the New Covenant. Jesus even gives more insight into them.
Is "love" your "objective-morality"?? AND if it is, HOW DO WE APPLY IT IN THE (modern day) REAL-WORLD?
It revolves around a love for others and love for God but the commandments identify the penalty for wrongs that are not loving, including murder, coveting, adultery, stealing, lying and maligning your neighbour, dishonouring your parents regarding loving human beings.
Love fulfills the law and the love of Christ on our behalf has fulfilled the law for us. He has done what we could not do. If we could do it we would have no need for a Savior.
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I NEED SPECIFIC (UNIVERSAL) RULES AND PUNISHMENTS.
The Rules:
Do not murder, do not lie, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not covet, honour your parents, dealing with humanity.
The rest deal with our relationship with God such as keep the Sabbath holy unto God, do not worship idols, do not take God's name in vain, and have no other gods before God.
The Biblical Penalty:
Murder --> OT - life for life; NT - I cannot find a change unless you take Jesus' statement, "an eye for an eye" to include life for life. I don't see that as being the case but underlying murder in the NT is the heavenly penalty which again is death, this time spiritual death or separation from God.
Stealing: The penalties vary but the OT and NT principle is usually recompensation of equal value, then some. There are a number of different circumstances in which stealing is applied. There are cases in which the penalty is death because of the severity of the crime. The heavenly penalty is spiritual death, as for all sin.
Bearing false witness/lying --> The OT punishment varies depending on the severity, blasphemy against God resulting in stoning to death. The heavenly punishment for liars who do not repent is spiritual death or separation from God for eternity.
Coveting --> This command is the root cause in the causal tree of many other sinful actions. Covetousness and envy can lead to jealousy, stealing, murder, immoral desires that cause all kinds of strife. Again, the heavenly penalty is spiritual death, separation from God. Coveting is an impure thought and action that has no place in heaven.
Adultery --> God institutes marriage as an image or symbolism of a relationship with God, thus it is a sacred covenant between two people, a man and a woman. Marriage is intimate and the result of the joining in the covenant is the blessing and formation of a family that is best suited to the influence of both the male and the female. Marriage is also seen in Israel's relationship with God (the Old Covenant) and the churches union with Jesus Christ. Thus, adultery is taken very seriously, not only in the physical union but also in the spiritual union. What adultery does is it disrespects the faithful commitment agreed to by both parties. It hurts and harms not only the husband and wife but also the family unite. The OT penalty was stoning to death yet Moses permitted divorce in some cases. Thus again, the heavenly penalty for such actions is spiritual death and separation from God.
Worldly Penalties:
Murder --> varies from prison sentences to capital punishment.
Stealing --> usually compensation and/or prison sentences but varies on the severity of the goods stolen. In some cultures, it also carried with it the loss of a hand.
Bearing false witness/lying --> again the penalty varies depending on the severity of the lie from mere exposure to death for covering up treason in some countries.
Coveting --> Although not a crime until carried through to say adultery and even that not a crime in many societies, it is immoral thinking that leads to other acts. When someone covets their neighbour's wife their minds create a lustful desire with intent to possess or flirt that can lead to adultery. When they covet their neighbour's car it may lead to stealing that car depending on how strong the desire is. This is an interesting sin since many people today do not even recognize it as undesirable anymore. It is so coated by the societies we live in by the culture of our times that it is not recognized how much this quality causes many wrongs in society.
Adultery --> It again varies and in many countries, it is not even considered a crime anymore but a lifestyle change. The fact is that many, perhaps most people understand it as wrong, especially those who have been betrayed by their spouse and they and their families destroyed by such actions. In Hollywood, the act of adultery and sexual immorality along with violence is glorified and promoted into the culture and exported to other cultures to the extent that it affects and desensitizes us to the wrong of such actions. That is the sickness of what Hollywood promotes around the world. Modesty is no longer practiced because of its influencing on pornography. Sexual additions are starting younger and younger. The moral compass of many societies has been affected greatly by the 1960s and the age of sexual liberation. That movement has led to greater and greater desensitization of what is wrong. The pricetag of what is right and wrong has been switched so that many people are unable to recognize the difference. Most things have become relative to the individual, sub-group, and culture. Truth has been changed to personal preference and your truth as opposed to my truth. Many people do not seem to recognize that truth is the truth and cannot change just because a person believes otherwise.
The penalties vary around the world. But the point is that many if not most people recognize these things are wrong and not desirable attributes or actions.
Because, without specifics, it's PURELY SUBJECTIVE.
Is it subjective that murder is wrong?
Is it subjective that lying is wrong?
Is it subjective that adultery is wrong?
Is it subjective that coveting is wrong?
Is it subjective that stealing is wrong?
Look, you have avoided answering most of my questions to date so I ask for your answer if you have not done so. I only work on one post at a time. I do not read ahead.
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@3RU7AL
You're conflating moral instinct and our personal agreement with "objective morality".You can read it that way. What I am doing is expressing a biblical truth. How you take it is up to you.If it was "objective" it wouldn't be a matter of OPINION.
Granting God, the biblical truth is objective, outside myself, provided I interpret it correctly. There is a correct way to interpret any text. You must understand the author's meaning to correctly intepret.
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@3RU7AL
I want to know which (real-world) laws and punishments should be changed based on specific, non-opinion-based, "objective" "Bible" verses.Then you need to answer some questions.What would be equal justice for a murderer? Do you have a reply or can anything be equally just?This is another RED-HERRING.
No, it is not. Whatever I say you will have another objection. You want to know what is objectively just. Objectively just is equal justice. That means that a criminal sentence to be equally just then needs to deliver equal compensation to the victim. Thus, I want you to explain what equal justice would be in the case of murder.
What does the Bible reveal is the penalty for murder? Let me reason this out.
On the earthly level, and from the government perspective it reveals an eye for an eye, life for life, but, IMO, Jesus taught the individual to turn the other cheek if it is between you and the other person. As you have been forgiven forgive others. So, we individually, are to show the same grace to our brothers, even our enemies, that God has shown to us. That does not mean that the crime should go unpunished by the government. A life still demands a life. Justice still needs to be carried out. Life was still taken. If justice is not met that guilty person may feel compelled to take another life. It means, in as much as it depends on us, individually, that we should be willing to forgive others for the harm they have done to us as God has forgiven us in Christ.
Matthew 5:38-48 (NASB)
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus makes it personal with the pronoun 'you'.
Now, looking at the heavenly level, no murderer shall enter into heaven, yet Paul states that was some of you, but you have been forgiven and justified because of the act of another (Jesus).
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
What does "The Bible" tell us to do? Today. In modern times. Where in "The Bible" does it tell us the real-world "objective" punishments for each of the Ten Commandments?WWJD??
Today, in modern times the lesson is,
1) To obey the laws of the land,
2) To not hold a grudge personally but to love not only our neighbours but our enemies,
3) To not seek an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,
4) That these Ten Commandments are still binding but mercy is also at play.
Jesus even elaborates on two of them, adultery and what that means, and hatred and anger in relation to murders.
5) Jesus has met the letter of the law for the believer. He has satisfied its righteousness on behalf of those who have faith and trust in Him.
It tells us the punishment in both covenants.
In the Old Covenant, it is an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. It goes into great length for situational ethics in the ANE via OT laws and many of these laws relate to the Ten Commandments. You could argue all do.
In the New Covenant, the eternal covenant, it tells us that the punishment from these sins is separation from God in heaven. It mentions many of these ten commandments in various passages as they relate to heaven.
Justice:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Mercy:
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
***
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
***
Justice:
Galatians 5:19-23 (NASB)19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Grace and mercy:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
***
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
***
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
***
Mercy:
Revelation 21:7-8 (NASB)
7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
Justice:
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
So, except for the Sabbath, the Ten Commandments are all present in these NT passages:
- the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God,
- neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, --> Covered under adultery and idolatry towards God.
- nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, --> Covered under stealing and coveting.
- immorality, impurity, sensuality, --> Covered under adultery and covetousness.
- idolatry, sorcery, - Covered under Idolarty
- enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, --> Covered under Murder for Jesus likened hatred and anger with murder.
- murderers - speaks for itself
- immoral persons - adultery and sexual immorality
- sorcerers and idolaters - idolatry
- all liars - lying
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@3RU7AL
I want hard-and-fast rules (and specific real-world punishments) that apply equally to all people in all situations.Okay, you want justice, not mercy.Justice and Mercy are not mutually-exclusive.
And Jesus fulfills the justice of God on behalf of the believer. Because of that deed God offers His mercy and grace to those who believe.
Justice is paying for the crime. Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Definition of justice
1a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments meting out justice social justice
b : judge a supreme court justice —used as a title Justice Marshall
c : the administration of law a fugitive from justice especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity a system of justice
2a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair questioned the justice of the their decision
b(1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action
(2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness the justice of their cause
c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness admitted that there was much justice in these observations— T. L. Peacock
Definition of mercy
1a : compassion or forbearance (see forbearance sense 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power also : lenient or compassionate treatment begged for mercy
b : imprisonment rather than death imposed as penalty for first-degree murder
2a : a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion May God have mercy on us.
b : a fortunate circumstance it was a mercy they found her before she froze
3 : compassionate treatment of those in distress works of mercy among the poor
at the mercy of
: wholly in the power of : with no way to protect oneself against
***
- Justice is receiving what one deserves whereas mercy is to ask for what one wants and not what he deserves.
- Mercy is a free gift whereas justice is a right.
- Justice demands an eye for an eye whereas mercy calls for forgiveness and compassion towards the criminal or the offender.
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@3RU7AL
It's even worse if I do believe in Jesus Christ because that belief (and repentance) turns into an infinite GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD!!Because it means that any horrible psychopathic criminal can circumvent and evade justice.
Jesus Christ died to save sinners. That includes you and me. Neither of us deserves God's grace either, but God has extended His hand of mercy to sinners that we may again have a close relationship with God. Sin is an offence towards God. That means that you and I are guilty too.
If for some reason a horrible psychopath can understand his/her crimes and truly turns from those crimes (repentance), which God would know the true motive, then that person would be included in God giving grace to them. You and I do not know the motive. That does not mean they get out of jail free for their earthly crimes. They still need to serve the sentence.
It's "free" because they merely need to repent (regret) and believe.
So you don't believe in second chances. You don't believe in extending mercy to those who have truly changed their behaviour.
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@3RU7AL
I'm guessing by that standard, I'm already doomed to maximum punishment, so throwing in a few more violations here and there won't make any difference.That depends on whether you believe in Jesus Christ...It's even worse if I do believe in Jesus Christ because that belief (and repentance) turns into an infinite GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD!!
How is it worse? Do you want to go to hell?
And how is it free? It cost Jesus His human life with all the pain and suffering involved. It cost Jesus a lifetime of meeting God's righteous requirements and the persecutions He suffered to reconcile humanity with God once again.
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@3RU7AL
Isn't this a Boolean function? Any sin no matter how slight and you burn in (unverifiable) hell forever and ever?The Bible expresses that sin separates us from a holy God.Which has no real-world ("objective") consequences.
But the Ten Commandments do affect how we treat others who are made in God's image and likeness. Justice demands that we do not hurt others by murder, lying, or stealing from them. Our actions towards others do and should have earthly consequences.
Sin affects every one of us.
Please attempt to restrict your comments to REAL-WORLD "OBJECTIVE" MORAL LAWS AND THEIR REAL-WORLD "OBJECTIVE" LEGAL PUNISHMENTS.Sure god and hell and angels and stuff... That's another conversation.I want hard-and-fast rules (and specific real-world punishments) that apply equally to all people in all situations.
Okay, you want justice, not mercy.
Is murder wrong? Is it wrong to take the life of another innocent person intentionally and with malice? Can you answer that?
I want to know which (real-world) laws and punishments should be changed based on specific, non-opinion-based, "objective" "Bible" verses.
Then you need to answer some questions.
What would be equal justice for a murderer? Do you have a reply or can anything be equally just?
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@3RU7AL
So, no "objective" punishments (before death).When the punishment complies with God's righteous standard, yes.There are no prescribed punishments for violating the Ten Commandments (other than "spiritual-death").
Ultimately, those sinful actions led to spiritual death but they also received physical earthly punishments, as expressed in the Mosaic laws that concerned and related to the Ten.
You're making an appeal to "common-sense" eye-for-an-eye punishments, but Jesus specifically distances himself from those in favor of forgiveness.
Yes, He does favour forgiveness for each individual one of us. But corporately, we still need laws that incorporate the Ten Commandments or else anyone can get away with any injustice.
Which brings up an important point.If Jesus endorses forgiveness, how can you insist people be (real-world) punished?
Jesus endorses that we forgive those who transgress against us, but that does not mean justice is forgotten about when malicious actions are taken. That goes beyond just us. Malicious willful unrepentant actions need addressing or else anarchy reigns. If you find it in your heart to forgive someone who has taken off your arm because of spite, that is more to your merit in living the Christian life but by ignoring their punishment you are promoting that person getting away with such actions in the future unless they show repentance. They learn no lesson from such actions and feel free to do so in the future.
Alternatively, if you can't forgive others for their wrongful actions against you why would God give you mercy and forgive you? He has shown that He is willing to forgive you for far more grievous sins but recognition and repentance for those sins is required. Do you recognize you have violated His righteousness? If there is no repentance then you keep doing what ought not to be done and the law is not addressed.
The difference between you and Jesus is that Jesus pays for the sins of those who have faith in Him, meeting God's righteousness in addressing the wrongful actions on their behalf. He voluntarily does that. He says to punish Him instead of those believing ones. In the earth realm, we usually do not pay the penalty for someone who breaks the law. The law requires that each criminal pays for their own wrongful actions. That does not mean we can't do that some times, like admitting that we did the crime instead of them, but them how is justice met? We commit another sin in covering the guilt of another.
That does not mean that we cannot forgive those who offend us and show them love, even when they have not done that for us or deserve it. That is what grace is, showing love to someone who does not deserve it. Mercy is paying for their penalty in a just way if such a way is available. It is not giving them what they deserve.
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@3RU7AL
Are you talking about immediate, real-life, scientifically verifiable death, or some metaphysical or spiritual sort of "death"?Spiritual death.Spiritual death is unverifiable and definitely NOT "objective".
That is a presupposition of yours. It depends on humans as the measure of what is and what is not.
Real-world LAWS don't mention "spiritual death" so I fail to see how the Ten Commandments are even slightly relevant.
The same laws brought physical death in some situations in the OT. The greater truth is that they lead to spiritual death to God ultimately. You see, the OT contains physical historical truths and some principles that represent a greater reality - the spiritual.
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@3RU7AL
Are you suggesting that god endorses all governments and their actions are de facto acts of god's will?Not always endorses but allows.If an omnipotent god "allows" anything, they are de facto endorsing it.
God does not endorse sin, He allows it for a purpose and a time. Sin points to the inability of humanity to live completely good lives. Many, perhaps most do not even know what good means, nor can they justify it. They make it up to suit their circumstances.
In the exact same way, if you stand by and deliberately and knowingly watch a child put their hand on a hot stove, fully knowing of the danger, and deliberately choosing NOT to prevent it, then you are a psychopath.
But if you warn the child and the child still does it when you were busy doing something else it was not something you chose for them to do but something they chose for themselves to do. If you prevented them from making any choices on their own they would be robots to your commands. Not only this but by God allowing Adam the choice humanity found out what evil was. They found out that humans cannot live by their own standards alone. Their own standards are relative to their own desires, preferences, and tastes. What makes personal preference good? Nothing unless there is a best to compare an action to. What is your best in regard to morality??? Can you point to a standard that should be binding to all humanity?
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@3RU7AL
These cultures adopt a lot of the Ten Commandments.Don't you mean "these cultures adopt Hammurabi's Code"?
Or do you mean that the Hammurabi Code adopted them?
Or do you mean "these cultures adopt 2 out of the 10"?
If you refer to Jesus' summary, those two include the ten.
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@3RU7AL
So, god alone, without human assistance, enforces the Ten Commandments?Ultimately yet sometimes the appearance is that someone gets away with murder (I.e., O. J. Simpson or Hitler).So in what way are modern LAWS "based on" the Ten Commandments if there are no "objective" earthly consequences prescribed?
Although I say ultimately, that does not mean that we can't know objectively what is right and wrong. God has told us. The earthly consequences may differ depending on who enforces them. We still know in most if not all cultures that murder is wrong, lying is wrong, stealing is wrong.
1) “You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3) “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
4) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
5) “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
6) “You shall not murder.
7) “You shall not commit adultery.
8) “You shall not steal.
9) “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
2) “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3) “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
4) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
5) “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
6) “You shall not murder.
7) “You shall not commit adultery.
8) “You shall not steal.
9) “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
Concerning point four, the Sabbath for Christians is the Lord's Day, the day Jesus rose from the dead. What applies to God in the OT applies to Jesus Christ in the NT.
Now, the NT also expresses these same laws,
You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
Revelation 21:8
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Unbelief is a sin. It calls God a liar whereas that is not the case.
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@3RU7AL
How is this "objective"?You know that it is wrong to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, yet you break these commandments. Thus, you know what is wrong. You have an innate sense that these things are objective, not merely your subjective opinion or feelings yet you still do them. You see the principles included and stated in most societal laws throughout history.You're conflating moral instinct and our personal agreement with "objective morality".
You can read it that way. What I am doing is expressing a biblical truth. How you take it is up to you. That truth is expressed in Romans 1 and 2.
For those who do not have the Law and Ten Commandments revealed to them by Scripture, they show that they know it anyway by what they do and what they believe.
Take Romans 2 for example, here is the context,
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
I will supply you with the greater context,
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
The mistake I find most people make is believing that if there is a God that their own "righteousness" or "good works" will outweigh their bad or evil acts. Since God is just He must address all sin or else His justice and holiness and purity are compromised. Yet God has offered us another alternative which is not our good works but the works of Another. By faith in those, we find reconciliation with God. Jesus expressed it in John,
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
By God's grace, when we believe by faith in the works of Another, and trust in those works to meet our righteousness, just like in OT times Israel relied on the sacrifice without blemish of animals to cover their sins, the sacrifice is acceptable to God. Notice it is not our own sacrifice that makes us right with God in finding salvation, but in the sacrifice He provides. Throughout the OT they relied on the sacrifices they brought before God to meet and atone for their sinful actions, yet God, just like with Abraham, provided the sacrifice. Instead of Abraham offering his own son God provided the sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice that meets God's standards of righteousness. Will you recognize that sacrifice as sufficient for your sins or not is between you and God.
In and of yourself you are a dead man towards God. What can a dead man do? Nothing. He needs resurrecting. Jesus said He is the resurrection and the life. Are you willing to trust this or go your own way? That is between you and God.
But I ask, what can a dead man do?
Ephesians 2 (NASB)
Made Alive in Christ
2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Made Alive in Christ
2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
What can a dead man do? It requires the grace and mercy of God found through faith in Jesus Christ to resurrect you. The requirement is faith, but not blind faith, reasonable faith and evidential faith.
You're also building a flimsy bridge from "don't murder" (OK) and "don't lie" (OK) with "don't covet" (not morally wrong) and "don't worship false gods" (not morally wrong) and "don't dishonor your parents" (not morally wrong).You're lumping all of these together as if they were all equally "objective" while only making a case for 2 out of the 10.
Each one of these things is against loving your neighbour or God. Each one of these things leads to all kinds of other crimes or sinful actions. Love is looking out for others above yourself, of putting their interests first, above your own. It protects and hopes goodness on others. It does not mistreat them. It looks out for their best interests.
How you treat others reflects on how you treat God since Genesis discloses humanity is created in His image and likeness.
Objective morality must be a set of clear, non-context-sensitive, Quantifiable LOGICALLY COHERENT principles and or specific rules that each have specific, prescribed consequences that have NO EXCEPTIONS.All you've provided are SUBJECTIVE guidelines (no death penalty for cursing a parent) with zero detectable consequences (eternal hellfire + whatever your local government says).
The death penalty was a Mosaic law. Prove otherwise? The principle is that it is good to honour your parents who brought you into the world and looked after you for all those years, however imperfectly.
Do you recognize there is a difference between the two covenants or not? Do you see what laws are expressed in both? Do you see the same penalty for disobeying the Ten Commandments in both Testaments?
The guidelines are not my own. They are found in the Bible. Whether you want to believe they are objective truths and principles is up to you. Try explaining morality otherwise.
I am well aware of the ditty that goes, "Convince a man against his will he remains the same unchanged still."
That is where your volition or will plays in the whole thing. Is what I say reasonable to you? Do you see the need for an ultimate objective, fixed measure for morality or is relativism okay with you? If not, make sense of morality for me and it will be my turn to question you.
Now, if you see the need for a fixed standard then what is the necessary standard to make sense of morality?
Once you answer "god," which God? What is God like? That is an entirely different conversation.
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@3RU7AL
Are you suggesting that each person can interpret it for themselves, personally?No, what I am suggesting is that you will answer for your own personal sins based on whether you have lied, stolen, committed adultery, murdered, coveted, bore false witness, put idols before God and disparaged His name and holiness.Isn't this a Boolean function? Any sin no matter how slight and you burn in (unverifiable) hell forever and ever?
The Bible expresses that sin separates us from a holy God. Our sinful natures are opposed to the good of God. We desire what is not good for us. We hide from Him by rejecting or ignoring Him. Some sins suggest to me a greater consequence than others but that is just my opinion. Separation from God would mean that our existence after death would not be subject to the goodness of God. We would get what we sought from our earthly existence; experiencing eternity without the influence of God's goodness present any longer. All hell would break loose.
I'm guessing by that standard, I'm already doomed to maximum punishment, so throwing in a few more violations here and there won't make any difference.
That depends on whether you believe in Jesus Christ and trust in His sacrifice on your behalf or want to be answerable to God on your own merit or "goodness" alone? It is not too late to repent and turn to God while you still live. He has revealed the means to do that being faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Jesus meets God's righteous standards on behalf of believers. That is a matter between you and God. My sincere prayer for you is that you will consider the good news God offers by His grace and respond favourably.
To the world at large, the message is foolishness. The world at large relies largely on subjective opinion and limited knowledge regarding life;s ultimate questions, hence relativism.
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