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What does "The Bible" say is the "objective" non-context sensitive, undeniably right and appropriate punishment for lying?The objective result leads to death as does any sin.Are you talking about immediate, real-life, scientifically verifiable death, or some metaphysical or spiritual sort of "death"?
Spiritual death. Jesus said that a man (humanity) MUST be born again to either see or enter the kingdom of God/heaven. We presently live in the physical realm. God is spirit and the heavenly kingdom is a spiritual realm. Some of what that means to those alive now we will have to await the fullest sense until physical death. But in regeneration or the new birth, the spiritual relationship with God is restored. We once again have access to a close relationship with God. God once again, as in Eden, continues to interact closely with us. He answers prayer and presents evidence that His Spirit works in our life, our circumstances.
The original sin did not allow Adam to eat of the tree of life and live forever physically, but God promised on the VERY day that Adam ate of the fruit he would die. Thus, the death experienced by Adam that day was a spiritual death or alienation from a close relationship with God. That very day God no longer walked with Adam in the Garden and that very day God barred Adam from the Garden and taking of the fruit that granted eternal physical life. That very day Adam became hostile to God, as those who do not believe are hostile.
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The immediate or earthly circumstances and punishments may be different, ignored or changed.So, no "objective" punishments (before death).
When the punishment complies with God's righteous standard, yes. But additionally, the wrongful action also disrespects God's laws and has to be met with Him too.
What is the equally just punishment for someone murdering and taking another person's life? Is it not the just taking of their life also - life for a life? How can anything less than life for life be equal?
If someone steals $100 from someone else is not the equal and just punishment repaying them $100 and whatever hardships, if any, that loss caused the person who was stolen from? If when stealing from that person the $100 caused them to lose their house would not just payment also cover the cost of that house and the suffering caused by the result of that act? If the payment cannot be met then the person doing the dishonest act deserves further punishment for not meeting the onus of the debt to pay off the debt.
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Where in "The Bible" is this explained?In many places but the principle is that God allows governments and leaders to curtail injustices and as long as the laws do not go against God's standards we, as Christians, are to accept them.Are you suggesting that god endorses all governments and their actions are de facto acts of god's will?
Not always endorses but allows for a purpose to demonstrate something unjust. If a society does not honour and respect or believe in God He allows it to continue and do its thing for a time, until its sins are filled to the measure of God's tolerance, then that society or nation is brought to justice. Then God brings judgment upon that nation or society.
Isaiah 47:8-10 (NASB)
8 “Now, then, hear this, you sensual one,
Who dwells securely,
Who says in your heart,
‘I am, and there is no one besides me.
I will not sit as a widow,
Nor know loss of children.’
9 “But these two things will come on you suddenly in one day:
Loss of children and widowhood.
They will come on you in full measure
In spite of your many sorceries,
In spite of the great power of your spells.
10 “You felt secure in your wickedness and said,
‘No one sees me,’
Your wisdom and your knowledge, they have deluded you;
For you have said in your heart,
‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’
Who dwells securely,
Who says in your heart,
‘I am, and there is no one besides me.
I will not sit as a widow,
Nor know loss of children.’
9 “But these two things will come on you suddenly in one day:
Loss of children and widowhood.
They will come on you in full measure
In spite of your many sorceries,
In spite of the great power of your spells.
10 “You felt secure in your wickedness and said,
‘No one sees me,’
Your wisdom and your knowledge, they have deluded you;
For you have said in your heart,
‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’
Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together,” says the Lord. “Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”
“This is your lot, the portion measured to you From Me,” declares the Lord, “Because you have forgotten Me And trusted in falsehood.
Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
Thus, we learn in the OT how God brings judgment on peoples and nations for wrongdoing because they have filled up the measure of their sin and God is not tolerating it anymore.
Also, how do you know if the laws "do not go against god's standards"?
Do your actions hurt and harm others? A law that goes against what God has said is wrong is an unjust law.
It sounds like that allows for a wide range of OPINION.
Except that we have a fixed standard and reference point. We are to study to show ourselves approved, workmen who correctly handle His word of truth.
I'm looking for 100% cut-and-dried "objective" no-nonsense FACTS ONLY.
Let me present a scenario, and God forbid it ever happens but I use it to demonstrate where your heart on the matter lies.
Is it okay for someone to torture and kill your innocent son or daughter for no reason but malicious intent for pleasure? Can you say "no, it is not okay" with 100% certainty? If not, you allow that it may be okay to torture and kill them because a person is seeking to fulfill his/her malicious pleasure. Can you live with such thinking? If not, you are being inconsistent and inconsistency tells you something is wrong with your thinking. Logically, something is wrong with such thinking.
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As for the individual, the following principles apply for the Christian and should apply for everyone, IMO,19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.So, god alone, without human assistance, enforces the Ten Commandments?
Ultimately yet sometimes the appearance is that someone gets away with murder (I.e., O. J. Simpson or Hitler).
The wages of sin is death.
God also made Israel, in the covenant agreement, agree to follow His commands and statutes. There were penalties for breaking with these laws, as stipulated in the Law of Moses or the 613 Mosaic laws.
Cultures around the world require you to follow their laws when you enter that culture or society. These cultures adopt a lot of the Ten Commandments.
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The Ten Commandments were/are related to the individual, to my mind.Are you suggesting that each person can interpret it for themselves, personally?
No, what I am suggesting is that you will answer for your own personal sins based on whether you have lied, stolen, committed adultery, murdered, coveted, bore false witness, put idols before God and disparaged His name and holiness.
How is this "objective"?
You know that it is wrong to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, yet you break these commandments. Thus, you know what is wrong. You have an innate sense that these things are objective, not merely your subjective opinion or feelings yet you still do them. You see the principles included and stated in most societal laws throughout history.
Do you (personally) know that murder is wrong? I'm curious to hear your answer and curious if you can live consistently with your answer if your answer is NO. As soon as someone murdered one of your loved ones would you still feel the same way, if your answer is no?
Is it wrong to intentionally take the life of an innocent person, someone who has done no wrong to you? Yes, or no? Subjective or objective?
Do you know that lying is wrong?
Can you live consistently believing lying is not wrong? That is the experiential test as to whether your worldview is logical. Does it meet the consistency test?
Isn't this the exact opposite of "objective"?
'Objective' is outside yourself and your subjective opinion. It does not depend on you thinking it for its truth. It is true, regardless.
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Many resulted in the death of the wrongdoer, but such laws were not always strictly enforced and depended on circumstances.Depended on circumstances???????????????????/How is this "objective"?
The ultimate consequence is death for the Ten Commandments. We are all eventually accountable to God for our earthly existence.
The immediate or earthly circumstances and punishments may be different, ignored or changed.
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These laws work on the biblical principle of lying established in the Ten Commandments.What does "The Bible" say is the "objective" non-context sensitive, undeniably right and appropriate punishment for lying?
The objective result leads to death as does any sin.
Wikipedia presents a reasonable explanation, IMO, regarding lying:
You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit.
— Exodus 23:1-3[9]
The Hebrew Bible contains a number of prohibitions against false witness, lying, spreading false reports, etc.[10] For a person who had a charge brought against them and were brought before a religious prosecution, the charge was considered as established only on the evidence of two or three sworn witnesses.[11] In cases where false testimony was suspected, the religious judges were to make a thorough investigation, and if false testimony were proven, the false witness was to receive the punishment he had intended to bring on the person falsely accused.[12] For example, since murder was a capital crime, giving false testimony in a murder case was subject to the death penalty. Those eager to receive or listen to false testimony were also subject to punishment.
In OT times the ultimate and final punishment for lying, if not repented for (i.e., malicious and unrepentant), was death, meaning spiritual separation from God.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (NASB)
16 There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
The same principle is at work in the NT. The ultimate penalty is death, meaning spiritual death or separation from God.
But generally speaking, the lie depended on the crime.
2 “When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the Lord, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion, 3 or has found what was lost and lied about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins in regard to any one of the things a man may do; 4 then it shall be, when he sins and becomes guilty, that he shall restore what he took by robbery or what he got by extortion, or the deposit which was entrusted to him or the lost thing which he found, 5 or anything about which he swore falsely; he shall make restitution for it in full and add to it one-fifth more.
In lying about murdering someone the penalty was physical death - life for life. There were circumstances where lying was considered the lesser of two evils in which the lie was taken into consideration by God.
Lying in NT times presented a greater truth that is developed and understood in the NT, which is ultimately a spiritual death to or separation from God for eternity. All your lies and my lies are exposed to God. We may be able to get away with them for a time but eventually, or sometimes immediately, when you lie to God you will have to answer and receive punishment as was the immediate case with Ananias, and his wife Sapphira.
Revelation 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
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(3) Can we just fire all police officers and tell safety regulators they can retire? (Y/N)No, they are there for a purpose.Where in "The Bible" is this explained?
In many places but the principle is that God allows governments and leaders to curtail injustices and as long as the laws do not go against God's standards we, as Christians, are to accept them. When they are unjust we are to shine a light or God's truth on them and expose the darkness.
Romans 13 (NASB)
Be Subject to Government
13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Be Subject to Government
13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
When a nation disregards and rejects God He allows them to be subjected to unjust authorities. Our recourse then is to prayer and to shed light on evil.
As for the individual, the following principles apply for the Christian and should apply for everyone, IMO,
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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(2) And the only enforcement mechanism required is "separation from a loving god"? (Y/N)No. That is the long term result.What's the right-and-proper, "short term" enforceable, real-world penalty for violating each of the Ten Commandments?
Many resulted in the death of the wrongdoer, but such laws were not always strictly enforced and depended on circumstances.
Physical death represents a greater truth. The principle is that all sin results in death; ultimately meaning death being the spiritual separation from God. Wrongdoing had also to be established.
There were accommodations for manslaughter or a life taken by accident. There were also considerations for the lesser of two evils, an example being the midwives lying to save the life of Moses. Some laws are unjust, such as taking the life of innocent children (in our day that would be abortion except where it endangers the life of the mother and there is no other option), or anyone innocent of wrongdoing.
Justices depend on doing what is right.
The Ten Commandments were/are related to the individual, to my mind. There are just wars, for example, where tyranny is met with resistance and the individual, is protecting the greater good of humanity by enlisting in the military to do just that. Even then, there are crimes within the military when someone goes beyond what is just. It could be someone so affected by anger that they take pleasure in torturing someone before they kill them.
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(1) So, in your view, the Ten Commandments is the only law we need? (Y/N)No, what I am suggesting is that the Ten Commandments are the basis for just laws. The principles behind just laws stem from them.What, in your opinion, are some real-world examples of "just laws" that are "based on" the Ten Commandments?
For instance, laws on lying in your country,
To win a U.S. defamation lawsuit, the plaintiff, at the very least, must prove that the defendant:
- Published or otherwise broadcast an unprivileged, false statement of fact about the plaintiff;
- Caused material harm to the plaintiff by publishing or broadcasting said false statement of fact;
- Acted either negligently or with actual malice;
In my country,
These laws work on the biblical principle of lying established in the Ten Commandments. Many examples seen today in USA courts of laws are principles taken from Mosaic laws also such as the establishment of testimony based on two or three witnesses.
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Jesus summed the ten up in two, love God and love your neighbour. Doing things that are not loving goes against these commandments which form the basis for all other righteous commands. Laws must be just and righteous. They must look out for the best interests of others.Exodus 32:27And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
What is the context? No sooner had Moses gone up the mountain to receive the Ten Commandments than the Israelites departed from God in constructing for themselves a golden calf - false gods. No sooner had they agreed to be in covenant with God (Exodus 24:3, 7) than were they breaking their agreement and being unfaithful. Thus, God was perfectly justified in punishing them. He punished the guilty parties.
God was teaching His people 1) He is holy, 2) they agreed to covenant with Him, 3) they were being unfaithful to that covenant, 4) He was going to teach them of His holiness so they would remember in the future, 5) it pointed to a righteous man mediating between the nation or covenant believers and God, yet even Moses was angry when he saw what had happened and how they had dishonoured God as demonstrated by him throwing the Ten Commandments to the ground and breaking them. Even so, Moses spoke to God, reminding Him of His promise, and asked for His mercy. This did not catch God unaware since God knows everything, but it demonstrates to us what the prayers of a righteous person can do. Those prayers can make a difference in the life of another. The punishment could have been a lot worse without Moses' intercession.
8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”
Moses’ Entreaty
11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Moses’ Entreaty
11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Moses’ Anger
19 It came about, as soon as Moses came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing; and Moses’ anger burned, and he threw the tablets from his hands and shattered them at the foot of the mountain. 20 He took the calf which they had made and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and scattered it over the surface of the water and made the sons of Israel drink it.
21 Then Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought such great sin upon them?”
19 It came about, as soon as Moses came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing; and Moses’ anger burned, and he threw the tablets from his hands and shattered them at the foot of the mountain. 20 He took the calf which they had made and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and scattered it over the surface of the water and made the sons of Israel drink it.
21 Then Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought such great sin upon them?”
— 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27 He said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’”
Notice that the people were given a choice. Some chose wisely.
There is a constant illustration of choosing between life and death in the Bible. It symbolizes or is a spiritual teaching of the life that is in Jesus Christ and the death outside of Christ Jesus.
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What are the ("objective" not-context-sensitive) prescribed penalties for violation of each of the Ten Commandments?The ultimate penalty is separation from a loving God for eternity. Remember, it is God who holds each one of us responsible for failing to live righteously.(1) So, in your view, the Ten Commandments is the only law we need? (Y/N)
No, what I am suggesting is that the Ten Commandments are the basis for just laws. The principles behind just laws stem from them.
(2) And the only enforcement mechanism required is "separation from a loving god"? (Y/N)
No. That is the long term result. All kinds of situations in your life either draw you to God or away from Him. Some of those are pleasant and some are painful. My father's death in 1979 started me on a quest for meaning. The short term results are that you hear His word and what you do with it is between you and God. The short term result is that you reason about life and you either turn to God for answers or you turn to your own devices and human reasoning alone.
(3) Can we just fire all police officers and tell safety regulators they can retire? (Y/N)
No, they are there for a purpose. The world is full of many evils because people choose their ways instead of the way of God. Hence, we need restraints to lessen evil. We constantly see that we are incapable of living a completely just and good life outside of Jesus Christ. That is why the Good News is such an awesome realization. He became the substitute for those who truly put there trust and faith in Him. The OT sacrifice had to be offered time after time, year after year, to keep the covenant believers standing with God in good standing. Jesus' sacrifice and substitution was a one-time offering. That is all that was needed. Animal sacrifices pointed towards this greater sacrifice and were a substitute for the person and nation. The laying on of hands by the priest signified they identified with the sacrifice as should have been the sinner.
Hebrews 9 explains the concepts I am speaking of further,
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
Notice the reference to the outer tabernacle. It represented the OT order of worship or economy. Until that was taken away, removed, it was binding. When did that happen? It happened in AD 70. The Romans destroyed the Second Temple in AD 70.
Remember, the blood represented life. Taking the blood meant death. The animal death should have been the death of the guilty party but God allowed an animal sacrifice (which was costly) as a covering until God Himself provided the ultimate sacrifice that would always meet the satisfaction of God. That animal was a provision God gave instead of the human life that sinned. That satisfaction would be a man since Adam brought sin into the world by his disobedience and separated humanity from that close relationship with God because of sin. The Son becomes a human being to accomplish what no other human could. A man must live a completely righteous life to put humanity back into the right relationship with God. Not only this, the man must pay the penalty for sin, which is death (spiritual separation from God), to satisfy God's justice. Sin must be met with.
He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
The New Covenant between man and God was made not by animal sacrifices to ratify it but by the blood of Jesus Christ!
16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
The same principle is seen with a will. The will is only valid once the person who made it is dead.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
He appeared in AD 70 for those eagerly awaiting Him to ratify the New Covenant and show those who doubted that He was who He said He was and that He had met God's righteous standards.
Matthew 26:59-64
59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. 60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, 61 and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’” 62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The High Priest would understand that Jesus was who He claimed to be because Jesus would come in judgment forty years later (one generation) and they would understand Jesus was at His Father's side. If you understand the references to coming on clouds you would understand this is in reference to judgment. That judgment came in AD 70 and they would see, they would understand, what He said was true.
This version of "objective-morality" doesn't seem even slightly practical.
It gives the basis for morality. It necessarily comes from the unchanging, ultimate, absolute, objective, omniscient, eternal best - God. It presents principles that are witnessed in human laws throughout time. We understand that it is wrong to murder, steal, lie, and so on. That is implanted in most human minds (excepting those minds that are so corrupt and seared by self-deception) yet without God, there is nothing to compare good with since our minds and thinking are relative and subjective. Thus, we have the necessary standard only grant that God exists.
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What the Ten Commandments do is they make us aware of our predicament we face in that we do not meet God's righteous standard. It also points us towards Jesus Christ who meets all righteousness on behalf of those who believe.How do the Ten Commandments inform THE LAW?
Morally just laws are based on them in regards to humanity. Do not murder (kill) is something most societies have adopted into law. Do not steal is the same. Liable, slander, malicious gossip, deception, all fall under not lying, which is another of the ten.
Jesus summed the ten up in two, love God and love your neighbour. Doing things that are not loving goes against these commandments which form the basis for all other righteous commands. Laws must be just and righteous. They must look out for the best interests of others.
What are the ("objective" not-context-sensitive) prescribed penalties for violation of each of the Ten Commandments?
The ultimate penalty is separation from a loving God for eternity. Remember, it is God who holds each one of us responsible for failing to live righteously.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Sin loses our standing with God. It destroys our fellowship or relationship with Him. God reveals there is a penalty He will extract for wrongful actions either in us or in His Son. The Son willingly paid the penalty for those who will believe. The rest stand before God on their own merit. So how good is your merit? Have you ever lied? Have you ever been angry enough to kill someone? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you coveted something that does not belong to you? Have you ever had lustful and adulterous thoughts to someone who was not your wife? Have you ever dishonoured your parents? Have you failed to give God what He is worthy of?
As you can see, your case becomes very flimsy against such standards. You are guilty. You have willingly and willfully done these things.
Thus, you need to be rescued from your guilt and the penalty it has incurred. God is perfectly just in separating you from His presence since you will not come into it in the prescribed manner. He would not be just, and therefore not good, to ignore the wrongful actions.
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@3RU7AL
Do you think we should kill everyone who lies?
No, that would eliminate most of humanity. We should recognize that lying, generally speaking, not only hurt others but it hurts ourselves. We should understand that it is something that God will take into account when we come before Him.
Do you think we should kill everyone who dishonors their parents?
No, I think we should realize that we should honour godly parents, that our parents should be honours and respected being the elder and wiser who have our best interests at heart.
Understand that the Ten Commandments point us to what we should do and are responsible before God to do.
The law condemns us if we fail to meet its righteous requirements.
Galatians 3:24 (NASB)
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
What the Ten Commandments do is they make us aware of our predicament we face in that we do not meet God's righteous standard. It also points us towards Jesus Christ who meets all righteousness on behalf of those who believe.
I'm willing to accept you at your word that these Ten Commandments are "objective morality".What's the practical up-shot?
What Jesus Christ has done for us in meeting God's righteousness.
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@3RU7AL
I qualified it with questions you failed to answer:Agreement =/= "objective"Agreement = Intersubjective
I'm asking if you think those things are wrong?
Not only this, have they been wrong in most cultures around the world and throughout the ages?
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to murder?It depends on the context and the definition of "murder". If you believe it is reasonable to think a person will kill you in your sleep, should you kill them first?
Self-defence is permissible.
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to lie?It depends on the context and the definition of "lie". If the Gestapo asks if you are hiding any Jews in your house, should you be perfectly honest?
No, it is the lesser of two evils, but it is still wrong to lie. It is a shame that this world makes it necessary at times. It just shows how immoral our world is. The mid-wifes protected Moses from Pharoah. They lied.
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
Love protects.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to commit adultery on your wife?It depends on the context and the definition of "adultery". For example, according to "The Bible", marrying a divorcee is adultery.
Matthew 19:9 (NASB)
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Matthew 5:32 (NASB)
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.Romans 7:2 (NASB)
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.1 Corinthians 7:39 (NASB)
39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.Jeremiah 3:8 (NASB)
8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.God was faithful to Israel but Israel was faithless to Him, thus He issued her a letter of divorce, just as He issued Judah a letter of divorce in AD 70 and marriage a new bride.
Who do you know who thinks it is okay to murder, steal, lie, etc,?Any number of people. In-fact, according to "The Bible", Jacob is rewarded for deceiving (lying to) Isaac.
?
The Israelites are commanded to kill (murder) defenseless civilian women and children.
I'm not sure what passage you are referring to but generally speaking, these women and children would pollute the people with their idol worship and immoral practices if they remained.
The Israelites are also commanded to steal the land of Canaan.
The land belonged to God. He gave it to Israel and brought judgment on the immoral inhabitants of the land.
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@3RU7AL
Where in the Christian bible, does it specify which laws are "objective" and which laws are "subjective"?
I gave you an example in which the Mosaic laws were covenantal laws. The Ten Commandments were applied to both covenants.
The Ten Commandments are universal in that they are included in both Testaments.Being included in two places doesn't automatically make something "objective".
God said throughout the OT He does not take lightly the shedding of innocent blood (i.e., murder).
So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and bloodguiltiness be on you.
Proverbs 6:16-18 (NASB)
16 There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
Where in the Christian bible, does it specify which laws are "objective" and which laws are "subjective"?
It does not say it in those words.
Galatians 5:19-22 (NASB)
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Sexual immorality - adultery, lust, etc.
Idolatry.
Covetousness - envy.
Murder - outbursts of anger, Jesus likened murder to anger. Hate can lead to murder.
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
2 Corinthians 12:19-21 (NASB)
19 All this time you have been thinking that we are defending ourselves to you. Actually, it is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ; and all for your upbuilding, beloved. 20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances; 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.These traits are not compatible with God.
Ok, I'll accept your opinion that the "Ten Commandments" are "objective".What is the "objective" (not context sensitive) punishment for coveting your neighbor's possessions?
Envy and greed are not loving acts. We are separated from a pure, holy and loving God because of such acts.
What is the "objective" (not context sensitive) punishment for failing to "honor your parents"?
If you can't do that for your parents who conceived you and brought you into the world why do you think you will be able to do that with God? Thus, it separates you from God. God is pure. No sin will be present in heaven.
Jesus paid the penalty for sin as well as providing the believer His righteousness. The life we could not live He lived in our place.
Romans 8:1-3 (NASB)
Deliverance from Bondage
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Deliverance from Bondage
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
We died to the law in Christ. He fulfilled it on our behalf. He set us free from it by His righteousness.
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
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@3RU7AL
I would say that the Ten Commandments are universally known to most except for those whose conscience is seared.Special pleading, No True Scotsman.Your statement magically disqualifies anyone who might disagree with you.
I qualified it with questions you failed to answer:
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to murder?
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to lie?
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to commit adultery on your wife?
Who do you know who thinks it is okay to murder, steal, lie, etc,?
Find me someone who is not psychologically maladjusted who thinks those things are okay.
Do you think Kim Jong-un is normal?
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I would say that the Ten Commandments are universally known to most except for those whose consciousness is seared.
Should read,
I would say that the Ten Commandments are universally known to most except for those whose conscience is seared.
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Where in the Christian bible, does it specify which laws are "objective" and which laws are "subjective"?
The Mosaic Law was relevant to OT Israel. The Ten Commandments are universal in that they are included in both Testaments. Jesus fulfilled both the Ten Commandments and the 613 Mosaic laws
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.
I would say that the Ten Commandments are universally known to most except for those whose consciousness is seared.
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to murder?
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to lie?
Do you (personally) think it is wrong to commit adultery on your wife?
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@3RU7AL
Are you suggesting that you agree that this (claiming god spoke to you) should be a capital crime, specifically enforced by one's own parents?What is the context?Objective morality is universal and absolute and is the opposite of "situational ethics".
Nevertheless, God chose a people, Israel, who lived in an ANE culture. The Mosaic laws address that culture and situation ethics, and provide rules that stress the holiness of God and what is required of these people to share in a relationship with Him. Now, the Ten Commandments are universal and objective. Jesus mentions them in the NT. But these commandments, which are summarized in two, deal with our relationship with God as well as our relationship with other humans. The commands concerning humanity are recognized even in societies that are godless to an extent. Most societies, cultures, and individuals recognize it is not right to steal or lie or commit adultery or murder or covet something that is not yours, although the last item is slowly being eradicated in this "me too" relativistic generation.
Why would you be concerned about context?
It seemed to be a statement out of the blue.
What part of god's law says "kill the child if they strike or curse a parent (unless they have proper and appropriate context of course)"?
The Mosaic laws teach respect for others who are created in God's image and likeness. One of the Ten Commandments states to honour your mother and father that your days may be long on this earth.
Context has nothing to do with god's law.
Although the 613 Mosaic laws touched on the Ten Commandments they were designed, IMO, for an ANE (Ancient Near East) people. Glenn Miller and others have brought out these details. Israel lived in a culture all around them where slavery was permissible, and as in Egypt it was harsh and unfair, yet God's laws as given to Moses (613 Mosaic Laws) deal more with the situation they found themselves in and it provided standards far above anything of the time as Glenn Miller pointed out.
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@3RU7AL
Nice.Your god creates calamity and disaster.That certainly qualifies as "omnibenevolent".
There is a purpose for it. Justice because of sin. And for any who are not guilty, like little children, God restores life to a better place.
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@3RU7AL
Why would you worship such a god that is both evil and good?Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Funny, the New King James does not even use that archaic language.
Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’
Isaiah 45:7 (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (NIV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (ESV)I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.
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@3RU7AL
Should you unjustly treat those who are responsible for your earthly existence and your care with contempt and disrespect, with those who have provided a home for you, providing for your health and safety, food and clothing, as well as guiding you in your moral well-being?I think we can agree that each of us should be polite as a general policy.
I speak generically and generally. Place yourself in their position. Please refer to the rest of the context. Here it is:
"Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies."
Are you suggesting that you agree that this (claiming god spoke to you) should be a capital crime, specifically enforced by one's own parents?
What is the context?
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@zedvictor4
Prove it.It is you that must prove the tall tale.
You're the one claiming it is a fairy tale. Where is your evidence?
I have nothing to prove.
Any time you make a claim the burden of proof shifts to the one making the claim. As for laying down evidence, I have done that on numerous threads and all I get are obscurations.
Censor.Prove the God before attempting to condition other.
Are you willing to debate the subject? If so, as soon as I'm done my current debate I will set one up.
Projection.Projection.
Monkey see monkey do.
Truth or falsity.You only assume that you know the difference.
You assume I don't.
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@zedvictor4
There is a correct and an incorrect way of understanding what anyone says.What you mean is, there are always two sides to an argument.
There is also truth and falsity.
And God never said anything.
Bare assertion. Prove it.
Nonetheless, your belief in tall tales is absolutely fine, as long as it stays inside your head.
Ah, the censor police are out in force today!
You must remember though, that not everyone is as gullible as you.
Projection.
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@3RU7AL
That's like saying if you like the story of Goldilocks, you can't also like Jack and the Beanstalk.To you it is because you have an extreme confirmational bias. You treat it as nothing but a fairy tale, or make-believe.When you refuse to accept that Thog is real, is it perhaps because of YOUR extreme "confirmational" bias?
Yes, I do refuse to accept Thog is real. You have given me no good reasons as to why your belief is justifiable. All you have given is personal revelation that I wonder why I should trust. I have offered you many good reasons regarding my belief.
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@3RU7AL
(Zech 13:3)And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
Should you unjustly treat those who are responsible for your earthly existence and your care with contempt and disrespect, with those who have provided a home for you, providing for your health and safety, food and clothing, as well as guiding you in your moral well-being?
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@3RU7AL
Only you believe that different god stories can cancel each other out.It is a matter of logic, isn't it? Two contrary beliefs regarding the same issue at the same time cannot both be true."It is raining in my neighbourhood now.""It is not raining in my neighbourhood now."One of those two statements does not meet the criteria of what is fact or the case. Thus, one of those statements is false."There is a God.""There is no God."Again, the same reasoning.But strangely, believing in little red riding hood doesn't mean you can't also believe in the three little pigs.
I do not see how this relates to the Bible.
nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
2 Corinthians 10:5-6 (NASB)
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
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@3RU7AL
Ok, iff I'm following you, you're steel-man would be, "ALL human beings have a basic right to live UNLESS they commit a capital crime"?Well put!Do you believe it would be fair to say, "ALL human beings have a basic right to live UNLESS they curse a parent (OR) commit adultery (marry a divorcee) or commit any other capital crime explicitly detailed in the one-and-only holy Christian book"?
We do not live in OT times not do we practice some of their punishments. God had a purpose in creating such strict measures. It helped them to see that God's standard of holiness and purity exceeds ours. It also gives not only them directly but us indirectly they sense of honouring our elders and those who should be protecting us. The OT Mosaic laws were designed with Israel in mind, yet they also have principles we can all live by and many of which we have adopted into our own secular laws as well as how God expects us to treat others.
All human beings have the basic right to life but they do not have the right to act immorally and kill innocent human beings. Once that happens, they may compromise that 'right to life' in the taking of another life.
It seems like the gross number of human beings that have "a basic right to live" suddenly dropped off rather sharply.
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@ludofl3x
I'm pointing out the fault in your conviction: it's not really there if you're put into a difficult spot and forced to choose on it, you choose the baby not the embryo. Clearly if the embryos weren't embryos and were instead babies, you'd make a different choice: one three year old baby versus four crying newborns. I think you're probably a good person, my guess is you'd make a difficult choice and never forgive yourself, but I think you'd choose the four.Yes, I would unless the three-year-old was my own. There are always circumstances to weigh.This undercuts your entire argument: yes, there are circumstances to weigh. This is a pro-choice argument. Everything else is nonsense in your post: I don't see the embryos as people, as human beings, and neither do you. If you did, you'd be a monster for letting 1000 babies die to save 1. You're not. I'm not. THis is patently different from whatever weird killing scenario you're trying to make equivalent. Pro choce does not = THe Purge. Your last paragraph is talking about people, not embryos.
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@3RU7AL
Thog is beyond your epistemological limits. Are you suggesting that you have no epistemological limits?Thog is unreasonable to believe but you are welcome to believe.How do you determine what is reasonable to believe?
I already gave you four reasons. You're not listening.
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@3RU7AL
Ok, iff I'm following you, you're steel-man would be, "ALL human beings have a basic right to live UNLESS they commit a capital crime"?Well put!Do you believe it would be fair to say, "ALL human beings have a basic right to live UNLESS they curse a parent (OR) commit adultery (marry a divorcee) or commit any other capital crime explicitly detailed in the one-and-only holy Christian book"?
You confuse the OT times with our own. God made a covenant with Israel that teaches them directly and us indirectly how holy and pure God is. It also teaches us that it is impossible to live up to such a standard. Now, if you lived under that covenant, how many of the Ten Commandments would you have personally broken judging by how many you have actually broken? The 613 Mosaic commandments were in addition to those basic ten, but they incorporated a lot of the principles of the Ten. Jesus summed them up in two.
God is teaching that we need to respect others and treat them well. That was well beyond the other teachings of the ANE. When we don't treat others well, there are consequences or else the concept gets lost. The concept seems sharp and severe to us today, granted. We don't stone people.
It seems like the gross number of human beings that have "a basic right to live" suddenly dropped off rather sharply.
You seem to think the two can't operate together. I can believe all human beings deserve the right to life, to be treated with dignity and respect but that when egregious harm is done by one to the other there is a disrespect that takes place. Murder happens to be one of those cases. It requires justice or else we lose the intrinsic value that we all deserve.
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@3RU7AL
Why should that matter?Because the truth matters. Because anyone can make a delusional claim or believe something that is not true.But surely some truths are more important than others. Why would you move this particular one to the top of your list?What's the imminent harm?
I'm not sure of the fuller context of what is being discussed here.
If you have a personal relationship with an all-powerful god, who cares if anyone believes you?Because evidence can point to whether a belief is justified or not, whether it is reasonable or irrational or blind. When you have two or more conflicting beliefs about God one if any can only be true.Only you believe that different god stories can cancel each other out.
It is a matter of logic, isn't it? Two contrary beliefs regarding the same issue at the same time cannot both be true.
"It is raining in my neighbourhood now."
"It is not raining in my neighbourhood now."
One of those two statements does not meet the criteria of what is fact or the case. Thus, one of those statements is false.
"There is a God."
"There is no God."
Again, the same reasoning.
That's like saying if you like the story of Goldilocks, you can't also like Jack and the Beanstalk.
To you it is because you have an extreme confirmational bias. You treat it as nothing but a fairy tale, or make-believe.
When you say "depends", what are you talking about. Thog is non-contingent.So you say. Why should I believe you or what you believe is true? It appears to have no means of verification other than your word.Thog is beyond your epistemological limits. Are you suggesting that you have no epistemological limits?
Thog is unreasonable to believe but you are welcome to believe. Good luck with that!
How do you know you are not hallucinating or delusionally hearing make-believe voices? Your claims lack credibility.
No, I definitely recognize some of my limits.
Why should I believe you?YOU SHOULDN'T.NEVER TRUST SOMEONE ELSE'S GNOSIS.FIND YOUR OWN GNOSIS.Well, you have established your made-up god knowledge is not worth believing. The message is not worth repeating or dying for.I'm pretty sure only each individual can decide for themselves, personally, what they think is worth living and or dying for.
Do you trust enough in Thog to die for Thog?
Who else believes in this Thog and where is this documented?Thog created the concept of religion a hundred thousand years ago and all religions are aspects of Thog.What is your proof? Present some evidence other than your hearsay.Why do you hate Thog so much? Why are you so afraid of The Truth?
I hate falsity. If a person can't give some reasonable evidence for Thog's existence I think they are delusional.
All religions are evidence of this.Are evidence of what, Thog creating a concept of religion? How is that evidence? It is just one persons hearsay - mere assertion.You can't prove me wrong.
You have not given me enough information and nothing that is reasonable to date. Not only this, once you find the one and only true God you have no desires for carp except to expose its errors.
If you don't believe me, it's because Thog doesn't want you to believe me.Thog cannot be omnibenevolent. He leaves no witness of himself/herself/itself except your weak belief to date. Go ahead and belief such nonsense then.Nobody claimed Thog is "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means).
God is the greatest conceivable being that can be thought of. How does Thog meet that standard? He is already lesser than the biblical God if Thog is not omnibenevolent. Why would you worship such a god that is both evil and good?
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@3RU7AL
Hold up. Don't move the goal-posts. First you say ALL human beings have a basic right to live and THEN you suggest only INNOCENT human beings have a basic right to life.While it is true we all have the basic right to life, justice must also be served. When a person takes the life of an innocent human being what is equal justice? It is a life for a life, but that life should not be taken by us but by the State unless in self-defence of us or our loved ones or during an act of war.Ok, iff I'm following you, you're steel-man would be, "ALL human beings have a basic right to live UNLESS they commit a capital crime"?
Well put!
God is concerned for the spiritual welfare of His people. God takes it seriously when His people are misled since it leads them away from true salvation and towards a spiritual death and separation from God for eternity.
What about, speaking strictly from the Christian book,Yahweh’s originally designated punishment for...... <tick tock>Fortune telling? Ken?Death. (Lev 20:27)
Those were crimes that warranted the death penalty because they broke the command of idolatry. Idolatry was serious because it quickly spread and contaminated the land of Israel. It promoted the worship of false gods and broke the covenant they made with God. Remember, Israel was a theocracy. God wanted His people to know what holiness and purity was. God was conveying to them the severity of sin. They were an example for us on how seriously God abhors sin.
For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.
And eventually, any sin unatoned for results in the death penalty (i.e., spiritual death or separation from God). But God treated some sins as more deserving of death because of the consequences of such actions in undermining God's plans and purpose for Israel.
God wanted Israel to purge the evil from among them.
Correct. Hitting a parent? Ken?Death (Ex 21:15)
God wanted Israel to place honour on elders and children to respect their parents/those who bore them.
Correct. Cursing a parent? Craig?Death (Lev 20:9)
Ibid.
Yes. Not listening to a priest? Ken?Death. ( Deut 17:12)
The mediator between God and them. The one who presented atonement for their sins before God.
Correct. Following another religion? Craig?Death. (Ex 22:20)
The yeast spreads quickly through the batch. They committed to following God. God wanted them to know their word was important to Him.
Yes. Adultery? Craig?Death (Lev 20:10)
Again, sexual impurity was typological of a greater truth, Israel's relationship to God and in the NT the Churches' relationship with God. God is faithful to His bride. He wants the same quality for His bride.
COrrect. Not seeking the lord god of Israel? Ken?Death ( 2 Chron 15:12-13).
Again, it broke the covenant Israel made with God. Idolatry was adultery. It sort another lover. It was unfaithful to the covenant Israel made with God.
Correct.Fornication? Ken?Prison?No, sorry the correct answer is Death (Lev 21:9)
Again, God wanted a virgin bride, not someone who had a variety of other sexual relations. The more sexual relationships a person has the harder it is to commit to one person.
DammitProphesying falsely? Craig?Death (Zech 13:3)
Most definitely. False prophets mislead the people away from God. The prophesied lies about God. They preached rebellion against God. They were blasphemy.
Correct, bonus points if you can tell us who has to kill the false prophet?His or her parents.
Death by stoning.
Deuteronomy 13:8-11 (NASB)
8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the Lord your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you.
8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the Lord your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you.
Very good. Homosexuality? Ken?Death (Lev 20:13)
Again, homosexuality opposed God's desire for marriage and family. The sanctity of marriage is between a man and a woman. That is the natural and desired relationship. Anything else is sexually immoral. It is a tough law yet it reflects the holiness of God. God's purpose for marriage between a man and woman was to highlight a greater spiritual truth, Israel's and the church's relationship with God.
Yes. Blasphemy? Ken?Death. (Lev 24:10-16)
Exactly.
"the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk."
Correct. Working on the sabbath? Craig?Death (Ex 31:12-15)
Again, the day was for Israel's relationship and thinking about God.
Yes. Having a few people in your town worship another god? Craig?DeathMore information...Death for the entire town.... a little more....and the livestock.... err..and put the entire town to the torch so that the town is a ruin foreverCorrect (Deut 13:13-16 and just in time very nearly running out of time there with both of our contestants showing an admirable familiarity with scripture so far tonight,
Again, Israel made a covenant with God that He called them to obey. It was in their eternal best interest for if they rejected God they would be separated from Him forever. Thus, the covenant was not to be taken lightly.
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@3RU7AL
Why do you believe all human beings have a basic right to live?Because from a biblical standpoint, we are created in the image and likeness of God and it is not for us to murder or kill an innocent human being.Hold up. Don't move the goal-posts. First you say ALL human beings have a basic right to live and THEN you suggest only INNOCENT human beings have a basic right to life.
While it is true we all have the basic right to life, justice must also be served. When a person takes the life of an innocent human being what is equal justice? It is a life for a life, but that life should not be taken by us but by the State unless in self-defence of us or our loved ones or during an act of war.
Which is it? And how do you QUANTIFY "innocence"?
The OT biblical principle is it is the right to life for everyone unless a person maliciously takes another innocent human life.
Innocent is someone who is not guilty of wrongdoing. If you accuse me of stealing your pen and I did not do it I am innocent of the charge.
What about homeless people?Do homeless people have a basic right to life?
Of course. You misunderstand what I said. The biblical principle is that we are all equal in God's sight but when someone maliciously takes an innocent life, the OT penalty was a life for a life and it was Israel's responsibility to seek justice in such cases.
Aren't they "guilty" of vagrancy and therefore not "innocent"?
In your country, the punishment of death does not fit the crime. It is not equal justice. Usually, it is a warning to vacate the property. In OT and NT times, the poor were given provisions by God. It was built into the theocratic rule, which we no longer live under.
Leviticus 19:9-10 (NASB)
Sundry Laws
9 ‘Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 19:33-34 (NASB)
33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
Sundry Laws
9 ‘Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God.
33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
‘When you reap the harvest of your land, moreover, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field nor gather the gleaning of your harvest; you are to leave them for the needy and the alien. I am the Lord your God.’”
For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ...
If you want to act justly under biblical principles, feed, clothe and shelter them. But also, as Jesus said, you will always have the poor with you. You can only do as much as God allows you to do by your means. If you are poor too, then the responsibility is to your family but if God has blessed you with much wealth then it is in your ability to help so many more.
Or maybe they told a lie to someone, does that mean their (un-innocent, despoiled, worthless) lives are fair-game at that point?
No, the punishment does not fit the crime in most cases. Treason in your country may be one such case. If you lied about a treasonous act or about murdering someone that would comply.
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@3RU7AL
By the way, I was first introduced to Taoism by Alan Watts. I think I read a couple of Alan's books. That was in the region of 35-39 years ago.
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Why should that matter?Because the truth matters. Because anyone can make a delusional claim or believe something that is not true.You make a phenomenal point.How do we know, if someone claims they've seen BigFoot, ...how do we know if they're telling the truth?
My number one point,
1) God has made human beings reasoning beings.
2) As reasoning beings, we have the logical coherency test which also includes logical necessity and necessary or reasonable cause.
3) As reasoning beings we have the experiential test - can what we believe be lived consistently or do we live inconsistently with our first or starting principles and presuppositions?
4) Evidential test. Is there evidence or reasonable proof for what we believe?
And I'm sure you could add many more reasons.
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@3RU7AL
What if I like having people attack me and test my strength so I go around attacking people to test their strength?Then you live by the fallacy of might makes right.How is this a fallacy?
Appeal to force or appeal to fear:
What specific idea makes you think "might-makes-right" is incorrect or improper?
Justice.
Might-makes-right allows 'brute force' to rule the day. It means that those who have power can apply any preference they like on others. I believe, but I could be wrong, that you would not want to live under the dictatorship of Kim Jong-un. Now, why is that?
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What's the underlying principle?The underlying principle is that 1) all human beings have a basic right to live, 2) murder takes away that right, 3) all human beings should be treated equally under the law or there is no justice.I appreciate your tenacity.Why do you believe all human beings have a basic right to live?
Because from a biblical standpoint, we are created in the image and likeness of God and it is not for us to murder or kill an innocent human being. The Creator has the right to take life since He created it and He does not want human beings taking innocent life.
From a human standpoint, I do not want anyone killing me or my loved ones without just cause. Just cause points to the equality of persons.
Why do you believe all human beings should be treated equally under the law?
From a biblical standpoint, we are answerable to God.
From a human standpoint, if we do not hold people to a just standard any evil is possible. If we do not treat all people as intrinsically valuable what does it matter what someone does to someone else?
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@3RU7AL
What is wrong with murder? It is the intentional and malicious taking of innocent life.That's just a definition.
Definitions are ways in which we understand what a thing is. Unless we define terms in complicated issues we are talking past each other.
Why is it wrong? What moral AXIOM brings you to the conclusion, "some killing is awesome and some is bad depending on the circumstances"?
Let us not lose track of the context - in relation to intentionally and maliciously killing innocent human beings.
Why is murder wrong? Because it is the taking of innocent life and God does not permit it. Equal justice would be a life for a life as the measure. As for "some killing is awesome," I think that statement is suspect since if someone decided to kill you for no just reason would you still think so? The case for laws is those laws should be just. Laws imply justice. Breaking those laws result in a penalty.
So, if you don't think murder is wrong then you should not object to someone killing you for the simple reason that they do not like you or do not like the way you tie your shoe laces.
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@3RU7AL
I can lie it out for you further.1. You know Brahman exists yet you suppress the truth of God with your unrighteousness.2. Brahman has supplied the evidence of itself with each human being.3. It is by hardening our hearts to Brahman and denying it that suppresses the truth of Brahman.4. Brahman's divine nature is seen in what has been made.5. Thus, you are without excuse.Now, if you want to know Brahman you first have to believe it exists instead of suppressing this ancient and undeniable truth.To think you will know Brahman when you deny its existence is illogical. Yet if you truly seek Brahman I truly believe it will be found by you. And it has to be the one and only true Brahman. Will your own mind get in your way? Will you adamantly reject Brahman or call out to it? Again, that is between you and Brahman.Are you convinced? Why are you not convinced?? This is such a convincing case for Brahman!
And where do you find this evidence or support for Brahman? That is not convincing. It is just assertions. My case for God has ancient writings that state these premises as well as historical people, places, events that back up the Bible. Not only that, the Bible itself has unity and logic that is not easily disputed reasonably.
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Your hypothetical god must be a moron if they expect error-slaves to be able to figure out which religion is "the right one".Now you are using ad hominem implications for what would it say about those who believe in this God? Are they morons too?Try not to leap to conclusions. It's a conditional statement. Does your hypothetical god expect error-slaves to be able to figure out which religion is "the right one"? Why would an infinitely wise creator make so many error-slaves in the first place?
First, you called the biblical God hypothetical. Then you surmise this hypothetical God must be a moron knowing well that I do not believe in a hypothetical God, only you do. If you are going to call Him hypothetical then prove as much or else you are making all kinds of assumptions and assertions.
God did not make them that way in the first place. Humanity is the way it is because of Adam's disobedience to God. Adam chose the course he would take and that course affected us. We inherited the same nature he acquired with his disobedience.
Imagine a parent who keeps their identity secret from their children their whole lives, always watching them, always making sure they have food, clothing and shelter, but just stands idly by when other people tell their children that they are their "real" parents. Can they really get upset if their own children believe some random strangers are their "real" parents? I mean, if they CAN reveal themselves to each person individually, you know, like with a talking donkey or something, WHY DON'T THEY JUST DO THAT?
Our problem comes in that we do not want to listen to God. We resist Him so much that we deny Him according to the biblical revelation (Romans 1). We do this because we prefer our sins; we prefer doing what is contrary to goodness; we make up what is good, and it is relative.
Can you show me that you are not a slave to those desires that control you?Can you show me that you are not a slave to those desires that control you? Probably not. We can make claims, but I don't think we can "show it".
I have my issues like every human being. The difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is that our hearts and minds have been changed. We no longer are at enmity with God. We also have a perfect sacrifice for sin, one that meets God's righteous requirements.
I contend we are all slaves to something if you want to use the slave analogy.Sure, why not.It is by the grace of God, His mercy, and His revelation that we come to the truth. Take that statement however you want.Ok, I'm going to assume you're sincere, but I'd like to point out that (without sound logical support) what you call "the truth" is indistinguishable from PURE OPINION.
I have justifiable reasons for my faith although I don't think you would engage in exploring them. I have tried many times and have learned that those who do not want to hear them will shut them down. I can give good, reasoned, logical reasons that I content you would have a hard time in justifying sound, reasoned, logical refutations of.
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Apparently, at least in animals, the most successful strategies promote survival of the species.In a universe devoid of meaning why does it matter what animals do?Animals fight to survive and to avoid pain regardless of your AXIOLOGY.
Sure, I'll grant that, but what of moral meaning? Morality makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Also, the grand scheme, if there is no God, is indifferent to what you or animals feel. There is no ultimate meaning from such a worldview, just the temporary meaning you create.
Why are you creating meaning in what is ultimately meaningless?Human INSTINCT fights to survive and to avoid pain regardless of your AXIOLOGY.
What makes that moral and why?
Why do you continually look for meaning and find it significant?I am interested in learning how to better survive and avoid pain and I'm pretty sure you are as well and I'm pretty sure this was just as true 10,000 years ago as it is today.
Is that a moral issue? If so, why?
You continually borrow from my Christain worldview, not an atheistic or materialistic worldview.I'm not an Atheist, I'm a GNOSTIC DEIST.
I was assuming you were an atheist. I did not take your claim of Thog seriously. Should I have?
How does that answer anything? You know there is a God or gods, but you don't know who or what that God or god is. What revelation do you have from that god or gods that confirms your belief?
Which of these definitions of Thog conforms to your worldview or do you have another?
Thog may refer to
- Thog (comics), a Marvel comics character
- the THOG problem, a logic puzzle by psychologist Peter Wason
- Thog, a character in the webcomic The Order of the Stick
- Thog, a large blue monster in The Muppet Show
How do I take this seriously?
Thus, you are inconsistent.Please be more specific.
If morality is relative to human beings how is your moral view any better than any other? If it is not better then why do you hold onto it? Any view is as good as any other.
In an atheistic worldview, you are determined.In all worldviews you are determined. How can you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god without also believing that god created your desire for "sinful activities"?
Adam had the will to know evil or not. He chose to know evil. God did not create evil. He created a being with freedom to choose not to do what God said was good and what God commanded not to do. Even though God knew what Adam would choose He did not force Adam not to do what Adam did. He allowed Adam to choose. Adam's choice had consequences. If I allow you to do something that is going to hurt you how have I determined you in doing it?
You are just a machine.That's just a clunky metaphor. I'm more like a thunderstorm.
I was speaking from an atheistic worldview.
A random process (how contradictory) that causes intricate mechanical functions is a machine. Does your body work like a machine?
The way your electrochemical processes react to stimuli and outside influences such as your environment determines what you will do.And you prefer to imagine that your actions are fundamentally dis-coupled from any and all influence (rendering them indistinguishable from random)?
Not at all from any and all influences. I know I have a bias. Any worldview has a bias. The question is whether what I believe is true or not.
What is moral about that.Indeed. What is moral (or immoral) about actions fundamentally dis-coupled from any and all influence (free actions)?How could you punish someone for an action that had no initiation, no motive (Causa sui)?
But our actions do have intent and motive. The question from an atheistic perspective was how and why?
We do will, we do what we want or desire even though those thoughts are influenced by other actions and things.
It is just the way things are. Why should my electrochemical functions or anyone else act in the same way? If they do, bonus. You live!Good thing most humans are capable of empathy.
I was coming at this from an atheistic worldview.
Perhaps you should disclose how you believe we originated because from a willy-nilly random chance universe it makes no sense why things would have reason and order to them.
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@3RU7AL
1. Is the one making the alarm aware they are lying?Their actions are consistent with an awareness of lying.
OR just trying to get food by creating a diversion. The ones who normally got first dibs were angry that a subordinate member of the troop got to eat their food by diverting their attention.
There are also behavioral studies that alternatively reward and or punish deception in apes and if they think it's worth the risk, they will lie.
A Pavlovian reaction.
2. Do they know they are stealing?Their actions are consistent with an awareness of stealing, they take measures to hide the food that they don't take under normal circumstances.
OR they guard it or hid it since they understand that if they don't others will eat it. It is a protective reaction to ensure they have something later to eat.
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Please make your moral AXIOMS EXPLICIT.Moral laws stem from ten.Would you say it is wrong to murder?You're missing the point. Why is it wrong to murder and how do we determine what constitutes murder?
Another non-answer.
What is wrong with murder? It is the intentional and malicious taking of innocent life.
What's the underlying principle?
The underlying principle is that 1) all human beings have a basic right to live, 2) murder takes away that right, 3) all human beings should be treated equally under the law or there is no justice.
What all these laws and the others boil down to is doing unto others what you would want them to do to you. Do you want someone to murder you, steal from you, lie to you, cheat on you, want what is yours? Then you should treat others the same way.What if I like having people attack me and test my strength so I go around attacking people to test their strength?
Then you live by the fallacy of might makes right. Might does not make it right, it forces conformity on others. A just law is a law that recognizes what is right, not one that makes up a right based on force. Conformity by force regardless of what is right is dictatorship and totalitarianism.
This "principle" is fundamentally SUBJECTIVE.
Most definitely.
I want MORAL MATHEMATICS. I want to be able to calculate how morally "right" or "wrong" an action or inaction is WITHOUT contextual SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Like this, [LINK]
Mathematics has a fixed standard and is objective. Only a Being who knows all things is unchanging in His nature and is good who has revealed what is right and wrong would give a morally sufficient, good standard that should be followed. Otherwise, you have relative, shifting standards that are witnessed as changing.
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For example, apes will sometimes [1] make a false alarm call to scare the troop away from a choice piece of food, but if they are caught (lying and stealing), the troop beats them senseless.[1] How is that immoral?It's two of the same behaviors identified in your magical ten-commandments.Lying and stealing.
1. Is the one making the alarm aware they are lying?
Do they know the one making a false alarm is lying or do they just want the food and someone else gets it so they beat them up so they do not wait in line in the future?
Does the one making a false alarm know they are lying or do they just want to survive and know if they get a bite it will promote their survival?
2. Do they know they are stealing?
Or are they just trying to survive and know there is a hierarchy they are competing with and that hierarchy will beat them silly if they get caught because they have seen the food and are denied it and the strong rule the weak?
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Okay. How is that morally good? Behaviour is what is. How does what is correspond to what ought to be? Perhaps it keeps you alive. Are you saying that makes it moral? Whatever keeps you alive is morally acceptable?Apparently, at least in animals, the most successful strategies promote survival of the species.
In a universe devoid of meaning why does it matter what animals do? Why are you creating meaning in what is ultimately meaningless? Why do you continually look for meaning and find it significant? You continually borrow from my Christain worldview, not an atheistic or materialistic worldview. Thus, you are inconsistent. In an atheistic worldview, you are determined. You are just a machine. The way your electrochemical processes react to stimuli and outside influences such as your environment determines what you will do. What is moral about that. It is just the way things are. Why should my electrochemical functions or anyone else act in the same way? If they do, bonus. You live!
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That purpose demonstrates to us that without God we are in a sea of moral relativism.Even with a hypothetical god, we're still in a "sea of moral relativism".I've never heard any Christian anywhere ever demonstrate a comprehensive list of moral AXIOMS.Please make your moral AXIOMS EXPLICIT.
Moral laws stem for ten.
Would you say it is wrong to murder? By murder, I mean intentionally and maliciously killing an innocent human being, someone who has not wronged you.
Would you say it is wrong to lie? Is that a just principle? If not why should I believe you?
Is it wrong to steal? Is that a just principle? If not, you should have no objections to someone taking your valuables.
Is it wrong to covet your neighbour's wife, goods, possessions? Is that a just principle? If not, then you should not object to someone coveting your wife or possessions.
Is it wrong to commit adultery? Is that a just principle? If not you should no object to your wife cheating on you and creating a division in your family by leaving you and taking the kids with her.
What all these laws and the others boil down to is doing unto others what you would want them to do to you. Do you want someone to murder you, steal from you, lie to you, cheat on you, want what is yours? Then you should treat others the same way.
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Others say, if you DON'T follow god, then you are an error-slave.I say, if you are an error-slave, how can you be expected to identify "the truth"?????????????????????It becomes willy nilly, doesn't it, if you have no fixed and absolute reference point?Your hypothetical god must be a moron if they expect error-slaves to be able to figure out which religion is "the right one".
Now you are using ad hominem implications for what would it say about those who believe in this God? Are they morons too?
Can you show me that you are not a slave to those desires that control you? I contend we are all slaves to something if you want to use the slave analogy. It is by the grace of God, His mercy, and His revelation that we come to the truth. Take that statement however you want.
How is anyone supposed to know?
Romans 1:18-26 (NASB)
Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The biblical God has revealed Himself to humanity. What you do with that revelation is between you and God. The boldened/underlined section above reveals as much.
I can lie it out for you further.
1. You know God exists yet you suppress the truth of God with your unrighteousness.
2. God has supplied the evidence of Himself with each human being.
3. It is by hardening our hearts to God and denying Him that suppresses the truth of God.
4. His divine nature is seen in what has been made.
5. Thus, you are without excuse.
Now, if you want to know God you first have to believe He exists instead of suppressing this biblical truth.
Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
To think you will know God when you deny His existence is illogical. Yet if you truly seek Him I truly believe He will be found by you. And it has to be the one and only true God. Will your own mind get in your way? Will you adamantly reject Him or call out to Him? Again, that is between you and God.
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Are there 66 canonical ancient writings we call the Bible? Yes or no?Are you Catholic? Because if you're not Catholic, you might want to figure out how the Council of Nicaea cherry-picked the early Christian writings.
Catholic in what sense? 'Universal' or Roman Catholic?
Do these writings all convey information about the being called God therein as to His speaking to them and revealing information to humanity?Well, I know the Book Of Mormon certainly does.
You failed to answer my question. You are being obscure.
The Book of Mormon has many contradictions and contrary to fact statements in it. It contradicts one of the books (the Bible) that it claims verifies it.
Is that a true statement that they do recount such things? Yes or no?That's the "unverifiable" part.
I can verify it by their writings that they said this and reveal this. I did not state anything in my OP that is not a fact.
Did they write that God said things and spoke?
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