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@ILikePie5
I am not replying to you anymore, it is obvious to anyone who would vote for me what you're doing. It is also something you'd never ask Wylted, to protect his image.
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@ILikePie5
Debating controversial opinions should be banned, got it.
Nope, never said that.
White supremacy is controversial and I support banning it but not all controversial opinions should be banned from debate.
It's like saying I am against all numbers if I am against the number 13.
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@ILikePie5
you don’t support debates on the advocacy of white supremacy on a debate site. That’s your position, not mine.
That's the position of any decent human being on any website.
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@ILikePie5
I am confused on like multiple levels here.
I was curious if you were offended that Wylted mistook you saying you're Indian ethnicity as you saying you're Native American, then it turns out he was just joking.
What does this have to do with me supporting Warren for her politics and not her ethnicity?
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@ILikePie5
I am trying to clarify your position on key issues. Isn’t that the purpose for a campaign thread?
No you aren't, it's what you slipped in between nationality-shaming, deep anger at me because I don't want white supremacy spread on here (which is against the site rules) and basically all-round being toxic.
I don't get what I even did to you actually, like you in particular I don't know why you have this deep dislike for me.
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@ILikePie5
It’s a fundamental right that everyone should have. If you disagree with that, it’s your perogative.
guns or hate speech?
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@ILikePie5
I don't hate Bernie but if it comes to consistency and randomly endorsing very right-leaning (for a Democrat) candidates the moment he feels he's lost, Bernie can't talk much.
I am not sure what you are expecting me to say here, lol. You can vote Trump or whoever you want to, this is about a site election on a leader of this website, this isn't America's election for actual President of the US.
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@ILikePie5
Your gripe with me is about real-world political issues that you feel very strongly about, it may be that for you that is inseparable from how I will lead the website.
Everything is personal for you, I can't help that. It's not like you're a vote I can sway anyway, you went from running against me to backing Wylted. You never were voting for me, what is it you expect me to do to pander to you here? You will literally not vote for me here no matter what, right?
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@Wylted
The world is you pushed out, as a famous New thought leader said (bonus points for naming him).Knowing that the world is you pushed out,
Well a search engine helped me to find out:
I confess to not knowing too much about the guy other than another source saying he's radical. Not sure I quite agree to what he's implying.
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@ILikePie5
She didn't joke about Native Americans, she claimed and still claims to be 1/32 Cherokee.
I can think that's irrelevant to bring up (and agree with you if you think it is) and still support her for her politics, grass roots funding and plenty of other reasons like how and why she shifted from right-wing to left-wing in her past.
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@ILikePie5
Okay, blocked. Feel free to spam about me here.
I know of many Americans who agree with me on the gun policy thing but are overpowered by both gun rights activitists and the need to have a gun in case an armed lunatic robs your house or car.
I am not completely against 'free speech' I am against abusive speech that if it's believed by the masses is going to become unbelievably horrendous for the group the hate is aimed at.
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@Wylted
@ILikePie5
Pie loves America. In some ways he is more American than me, because the Indians were here first.
Do you enjoy this compliment from Wylted? Are you a proud Native American?
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@Wylted
He is literally ethnically Indian, from my understanding.
Not Native American but Indian as in south Asian.
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@Wylted
If you're serious about it I'll discuss with you, if you win, because you are one of the members of the group that shame them when they intervene in things. If you embrace their intervention, it can go a long way.
If you lose this election, I'd still discuss it with you but I reckon you'll want to talk directly to the mods regardless as you don't like me after I talked about respecting you very little.
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@ILikePie5
You're not going to bait me into berating America right here right now, on a website that has majority American userbase.
If you keep this up, I'll just stop replying to you and block you.
I don't hate America.
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@ILikePie5
Strange outlook. Not sure how what you believe my nationality is has anything to do with my candidacy here on this website but if that's what you're basing your vote on, I can't help but shrug back at you. 🤷♂️
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@ILikePie5
White supremacists advocating white supremacy, yes I don't believe in free speech for that. You're welcome for my confirmation.I fully accept your confession that you’re not in support of free speech
Be sure to ask all the same questions you asked me to Wylted on his campaign thread. They're great questions, very important to know where he stands on them wouldn't you agree? :)
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@ILikePie5
I wouldn’t trust him to walk my dog in my neighborhood lol
You'd trust the guy with no convictions instead, right?
Fine by me. I wouldn't trust most members here to walk my dog (if I have one) either... It's called being strangers on the Internet. :)
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@Discipulus_Didicit
ROs work in that context often.
The mods would need to almost be 'too heavy handed' at first with how many ROs they set out.
You would find that at first the forums would seem 'dead' but slowly over time the more timid members and emotional members who aren't timid but know they react strongly can start to feel more welcome there.
I guarantee you there are members who barely posted there as well as onlookers to the website who took a couple of looks at threads there that never signed up specifically due to the toxic environment it has. In other words, there's activity that would be happening there with fun and friendly debate between theists and atheists, different theists, discussions of the meaning of traditions etc that aren't taking place because we have people too busy trying to derail threads and bring out the absolute worst in members that differ from their outlook.
On top of ROs, I think there needs to be a lot of active intervention, locking of threads etc. The religion forum users will at first maybe say 'stay out' but they will soon realise the help going on there when over time the more toxic bullies suddenly are either tamer or gone of their own volition. Not all the toxicity is the level of BrotherDThomas but what has happened is over time all the non-toxic members got eroded away and the only ones remaining either painfully tolerate and partly embrace the toxic environment or they totally and utterly perpetuate it.
The toxicity is so direct and blatant that it is very easy to justify mod intervention to the people doing it and give them specific pointers to how to avoid ad hominem habits and perhaps discuss the topic more in an asking and answering format rather than a bite-back and berate format.
I can't give specifics without this thread itself possibly becoming classified as a callout thread but believe me, there are very specific habits of very specific members that if they were curtailed would completely transform the environment there. The mods are just obsessed with being lenient as in the past their intervening ways have been shamed and branded stupid by some members here.
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@whiteflame
Or is he just Spy, realising his story has to be straight before voting yes?
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@whiteflame
Why hasn't Oromagi voted no to this team btw?
Is he starting to realise something about Supa?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
There are several bans that didn't have to become bans had the mods intervened in the Religion Forums.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The Ethang5 ban before this last one is definitely one of them and even the one before I'd have pushed to be more lenient.
Ethang5 overreacts when other abrasive members pick on him and harass him. He has a strong pride to not ask the mods to protect him against harassment and instead starts being volatile, sometimes being very harsh and sometimes being passive-aggressive, to the member(s) harassing him. He is also prone to going after users he feels are harassing others (especially if the wrongdoer is an atheist). I feel that the mods sitting back and allowing the religion forums to just perpetually get worse while they did so, pushed Ethang5 to feel his role was more needed than before.
I won't go into Type1 because I do support his ban. I just think it didn't 100% have to be permanent due to me believing he'd reformed as a person a few months ago but as things are and given what he'd typed on that account, I stand by the ban. The reasoning is private though and not important here as I say I totally understand the ban, it was me who specifically forced his Sparrow account to get outed as being him as I realised he was not just abusing the rating system but literally voting for himself eventually.
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@ILikePie5
White supremacists advocating white supremacy, yes I don't believe in free speech for that. You're welcome for my confirmation.
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@ILikePie5
So you don’t believe that white supremacy should be advocated for/debated on the site when it includes evidence?
Yes, point blank yes.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Like many others including myself you chose to vote 'no' on the MEEP deciding whether this position should exist in the first place. In what way, if any, will this effect your decisions you make as president if you are elected?
Not much actually, if I have the power then I can use it well for the website. If the power is in the hands of a person bad for the website, the democratic voters will suffer alongside me at the outcome.
I was never 100% against it anyway, I just felt that in the wrong hands this ban veto power can lead to someone toxic just unbanning other toxic users over and over for the hell of it. I also felt like it needed more specification on what exactly the president can or can't do vs mods.
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@ILikePie5
if I say Blacks are dumber than whites because of their inherent brown structure and provide evidence, should I be banned?
I would be very okay with banning a user who did that on a regular basis.
If their sole statement is about IQ or something and it's a discussion about IQ, I'd be just about okay with it. If it was a discussion contextually leading to white supremacy and degrading the race, I'd definitely draw the line.
I don't know any context other than pure IQ discussion where it would be appropriate though.
'brown structure' is just plain racist though but you clearly said it to highlight the kind of ways they'd word things.
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@Wylted
Even the mentally ill deserve respect RM.
As a person, yes but I owe them no respect for their character at all.
Jack the Ripper was mentally ill, I don't respect him at all.
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@Wylted
I don't backstab or betray anybody.
You do. Such as me, the moment I say I have little respect for you and won't cower to your demands or ways you think I should be for your vote you suddenly back out of the guy you preached deep support of on a thread he didn't even ask you to make.
It's fine by me, btw I had to reply to this particular one because it mattered to me.
I don't care though and I agree with you if you say betraying on a website like this hardly equates to IRL betrayal but it's you who prided yourself on relationships you formed here, such as with Whiteflame.
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@ILikePie5
Should a person who makes rational and fact based (either sources, etc) arguments about their support of racism, sexism, transphobia, etc be banned?
very iffy.
I think Mesmer and Wylted both had very odd choices of evidence for what Misterchris banned them for. In fact he picked one of Mesmer's most satirical pieces about Nigeria when there were far more brutally racist posts made that weren't satirical at all.
I would have pushed Chris back and forced him to make a better reason for banning. I do agree with the Mesmer ban for several other reasons though, including defamation and harassment of me alone plus a series of huge baiting towards other users (pushing just far enough that you technically are inside the rules to bait the person to be so offended and insulted they themselves break it) except the baiting did break rules and was very personal.
I won't go into the details of Mesmer ban but I do 100% agree with it, I just feel Chris used poor specific URLs and examples to justify it.
The answer to your question is that alone is very close to what I would try to avoid but not over the line on this particular website for sure because that comes under the 'freedom' it's about what it says to do to the race, sex/gender, trans people etc and how deeply degrading it is. If it's not degrading and just discussing differences that may offend, I'm not against that, I've even engaged in debates on the side of noticing differences (not with race, with sex and therefore trans). I am not transphobic in my own opinion but stuff I've posted here in debates about 'ignoring sex, completely, being wrong' are things I probably would be very hesitant to post elsewhere outside of a private chat with someone I trust.
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@Wylted
Having uncertainty is not a moral failing. Lacking convictions is merely another way to say lacking certainty.
No it isn't, you don't just lack certainty but to you being willing to completely betray and backstab is itself morally necessary so I don't know if I comprehend your morality or way of seeing the world.
I am going to just let you talk now and talk to others posting to this thread, it is clear you don't want fruitful discussion about my candidacy, just to defend yourself against something you yourself forced me to attack you on by the questions you asked and implicit threats you made about your vote and taking it away from me.
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@Wylted
What if the baby is the next Hitler
I wouldn't torture it... WTF
What if we are in a simulation and the baby is not real
I wouldn't torture it, if we are in a simulation all my pain is as real as that baby's.
What if living through torture builds character and in the long term is actually psychologically beneficial?
To a baby? What the fuck are you talking about?
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@Wylted
"Why don't you have any convictions"I don't, which is why I can change with the wind. The resolute part is something I do just for rhetorical purposes.
If this is a person Pie respects, it says a lot about him as a person then.
Thanks for the mutual honesty between us here though. Nobody bullshitted about the other.
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@whiteflame
Oh yeah? I gleaned what you did alright, and it was you I suspected due to it more than Pie.
However, it is so painfully obvious that either Oro or Supa has made a pact with Earth to not tryhard the game which did benefit us as Earth voted no to the second team (hammered no, in fact) despite both being on the team.
The only reason I'm stalling my vote here is, as you said, to be openminded to other team formations for the sake of true objectivity and also to push Oro and Supa to finally snap out of their insanity (whichever is the Resistance member).
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@ILikePie5
I will just go along with it, I want a genuine competitor against me. Say what you said there in your campaign thread though and do what you want.
I literally want a competition, to win by landslide isn't fun.
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@oromagi
I asked you a few questions that you never answered.
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@Wylted
I have a minimal respect for you but it would be pedantic to say that it's enough for you, as a user, that I could care less about getting your vote.
Your vote for me was as fragile as your opposition to me before and after.
You change with the wind and feel like you're resolute in your views. I accept it, I understand it but it's one of many things I don't really respect about you.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I officially petition to replace out Supa with Ragnar or another replacement.
Votes to replace out:
RM
Votes to keep Supa:
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@whiteflame
If you replace out pie for supa, you are the biggest fool of the game.
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@Wylted
Also, you spoke of 'tact' yet you said 'hate'.
I did not say I hated you. I actually said I don't respect you at all.
One of the things I notice you do (which lost me respect for you after noticing you doing it enough times) is twist words and actions others use in another context, to be different and harsher or softer than they originally said or did them.
Not respecting someone and despising them aren't truly identical.
I can despise a rival I respect and somewhat like someone I don't really respect all that much, it depends on the situation but I would agree that to properly like someone you also need to respect them, that's true.
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@Wylted
When you said you had covid and were coughing up blood, I was concerned and immediately PMd you. To me that's altruistic but you can take it how you want.
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@Wylted
Nobody wants to vote for somebody that hates them. Whether they are honest or not. It showed a lack of tact either way
Tact of the kind you're asking me to do is dishonesty, for a man of absolutes you pick and choose your rigidity in ways I can't relate to.
Disclaimer the careful choice of words to deliver news to someone is a form of tact that isn't dishonest, however the type of tact Wylted referred to there was asking me to be dishonest about my feelings towards him.
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@Wylted
I actually have a record of advocating for banned users such as death23 and in fact advocating on your behalf behind the scenes. Can you list some of your advocacy that was not self interested and as altruistic as mine was?
I don't understand what this means exactly.
There are two instances where I did this, one was private (the mods know about it, Supadudz more so than WF who wasn't active then), the other more public.
Type1 and ethang5, however overall both were fun for me to interact with or watch from the sidelines when they weren't at their worst so I don't know exactly what you mean with zero self-interest.
I would even be self-interested to go down as a great and honest president who stuck by his campaign promise, that would be my self-interested motive to oppose bans and be a defense attorney type of figure for users while in charge. I would not say I will act totally selfless on a website I use for selfish entertainment, that would be a lie.
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@Wylted
It's actually a disgusting view and leaders such as Hitler, Stalin and pol pot agree with you that freedom of speech is bad.
It's also the view that every nation other than the US has in the world.
If you preached about violent Communism and taking up arms to make a new age communist Cambodia or USSR, I'd also be against that.
Hitler was a severe racist, I would not agree with him there.
You seem to think that on a website you are entitled to the freedom of speech that you are granted in an amendment that doesn't apply to privately owned websites.
I do not think you need totally unfettered hate speech rights on a website I am a leader figure of. If you want lies to get your vote, feel free to seek another candidate.
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@Wylted
I didn't like your answers and they seemed aggressive towards me, but I appreciate you taking the time to answer them. Thanks
I didn't write them for you to like, I wrote them to give honest feedback.
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@Wylted
I wanted to vote for you, until you made this statement.
That's the price you pay when you're an honest person.
You are free to support Pie now, I'm not gonna pander to you with fake nonsense for your vote.
I answered your questions and made my outlook clear where you requested it.
Feel free to ask Pie the same questions in his thread.
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Will you defend members from unfair censorship, if they have moral values you find repugnant?
I will quote what I said in another thread:
Blocking somebody and regarding their freedom of speech as invalidated aren't identical especially as I'm not a moderator.If I block you, it means I don't want you @ing me or bothering me.It's true that if I also don't like your freedom of speech here, I will block you as well but that's a tiny minority. Considering that I block a fair amount of people, I can conclusively tell you that me blocking you isn't an indication I'd ban you from the website and/or muzzle you.I do not support the first amendment. I think it is a fallacious amendment and concept for society. I will not pretend to uphold it as a site value.Talk with a tone of respect to other users outside of consensual disrespect arenas like a rap battle or idk some flame thread (but don't be racist).I don't really get this idea of people thinking they can be as rude and disrespectful as they want without consequence, it's not even how I was raised alone (I was raised to be more tolerant/passive) it's just a trait I myself have. I don't like disrespect and I sure as fuck don't like any of this racism, sexism, lgbtqphobic bullcrap going on with some users.Say your view without mocking and degrading. If you have a view that inherently degrades (that a race is superior etc) then please go to a dirty shithole on the Internet and excrete your fecal matter there.
So, the answer is maybe it depends how far their moral repugnance went.
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@Wylted
How will you approach forming a working relationship with whiteflame?
Easy, I already have one. It's not as close as me and Ragnar were or previously me and David, though both betrayed me I still like how Ragnar worked behind the scenes which I won't disclose. He was the most approachable mod so far, in many ways.
I've had a working relationship with all mods, helped them spot alts, pointed them out the problem of BrotherD frequently and long before he became too blatant of a problem for them to ignore.
Whiteflame is easy for me to PM and vice versa. Not sure what the mystery is, nothing about developing such a relationship is super difficult.
Are you capable of proving your ability to use discretion. The ability to use discretion is important to a working relationship. Let's say you earn whiteflames trust and he starts leaning heavy on you as an advocate for users he interacts with less than you.A lot of those conversations may be very private and ugly facts about users could come out that was only the privy of mods. Say whiteflame concludes a particular case of harassment is not harassment and the user should go unpunished. You guys fight hard over it and he basically says "fuck you, not banning the harasser " . Your only two options are1. Drop your argument and let the harasser get away with itOr2. Air your personal grievances with whiteflame publicly and break his trust and ruin the relationship necessary for a working relationship.Will you and can you be trusted to take option 1.
No, you can trust if it's serious enough I will take option 2 at my own sake for justice. I'd happily step down if needed, I'm nobody's tame pet.
Idk what 'secret' you mean though, this is such a vague question. It's like the same guy (you) who demanded the mods to prove doxxing by Death23 suddenly wants top secret opaque leadership. Make your mind up and vote for whoever you want. I don't care about your vote, you're not a user I respect at all.
I know I have the ability to maintain that relationship with whiteflame and have previously proven it as I have interacted with him a lot off site and we have both told each other personal things, and both of us have seen each other never betray that trust. Can whiteflame trust you like he trusts me, so a working relationship is possible?
Trust has many levels. You have no idea about my relationship with people because of how trustworthy I am about it. I am vague on purpose, mysterious with intent and nobody ever even knows what secret to dig at me for about people because they'd never think I had it.
I don't need to trust WF with too much or vice versa to have a working relationship. You're confusing a friendship or even super-close relationship that is best-friend level for a working relationship. Perhaps you need maximal trust to have a working relationship with someone, I don't.
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@Wylted
Ilikepie5 actually broke the rule of not campaining in a thread that isn't his campaign thread:
but I don't care about it, because he's my only competition and without competition excellence can't be proven.
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@Reece101
Reality can also play differently than you would imagine if you go along with their demands, just because they say they won't kill you if you obey doesn't mean that's actually what will happen.
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