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@Tejretics
One fun study: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/129/4/1553/1853754 (This study isn't specifically about diversity, but one of its findings is that high-mobility areas tend to be diverse racially.)
But which causes which? American economic mobility is high extractive; it tends to siphon off the upper layer of skill and intelligence from poor communities ('human capital' as they say; I find the phrase horridly dystopian) and funnel them into upwardly mobile urban economic areas. That doesn't mean that the diversity is causing the upward mobility; it means that when you take a cross-section of the upper wing of America's IQ bell curve and canalize it into an artificial community, then that community is likely to be diverse and successful. Unfortunately, this often leaves poor areas drained of the very expertize and intelligence that they need to succeed, deepening their economic depression. The heritability of IQ means that this even causes a generational dysgenic slip in intelligence.
This is the exact opposite of the policies which originally caused America to flourish, which focused on incentivizing capital to move to the peripheries, which invested in infrastructure in mid-sized towns in order to build the groundwork for economic flourishing, and which sought to generate thriving communities (mostly of white people). Nowadays it seems like all poor communities are getting the historically black treatment (drug trafficking into neighborhoods, no investment, brutal oversight). On top of this, the smartest bunch are bustled off to rapidly gentrifying cities while the children of the shrinking, stratospherically wealthy upper classes get free tickets to the 'smart kids club' due to their status. This is what I was talking about when I said that I don't take these studies seriously: it's all correlation. It's not scientific because you cannot study the effects which variables have in isolation. It has the trappings of a scientific rigor which it is impossible to ever fully enforce, and so you can give a sheen of data-driven significance to anything at all.
Belloc wrote a pretty hilarious essay which started with him describing the conditions of a city after the death of a politician. It was very sterile and clinical, he documented the moments of silence, how long each man sat perfectly still, the lack of economic activity. After reading these few paragraphs, you had this vivid mental image of a shocked city, deep in mourning. While all the information was technically true, including the timing, what he left out was that the data was collected in the wee hours of the morning, and most people were asleep. The essay went on to describe data obsession as a sort of mad blindness which had lost the ability to understand the very epistemology which underpinned science and limited its purview. It denies the validity of the simple, integrative leaps in logic which underpin all human knowledge, including the foundation of science itself. That study really, really reminded me of his parody because it missed such essential pieces of the puzzle.
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@thett3
Yeah 'science' is becoming less reputable, not more. It probably has something to do with its biggest defenders being a bunch of uneducated, condescending neckbeards who treat a process for testing claims like an institutional, magisterial authority.
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@Tejretics
I was talking about forced integration, not desegregation. In the north, this was a very different debate than it was in the south. Schools in the south were de jure segregated, while in the north segregation was de facto. School districts overlayed neighborhoods, which were largely ethnically homogenous; this meant that most schools were majority Irish, majority black, majority Jewish, etc. The segregation wasn't absolute either, there were typically small numbers of other groups in each neighborhood school. Before forced busing occurred there were also voluntary busing programs put into place.
Studies which try and test a general hypothesis like 'diversity is good for education' will always be trash because there's no way to ethically eliminate the confounding variables during experimentation. You get much better results when you test the implementation of a specific policy at a specific time and place and then draw limited conclusions from it. Busing was tested before it was implemented in Boston, and the results were not good. Then they moved on to forced programs, which were absolutely disastrous for all parties involved and promoted a powerful backlash from the working class communities. Then the policy was enforced universally and there were riots, racial tensions shot through the roof, and the police brutally cracked down. The people implementing these policies commissioned the studies. They knew that they had no real effect on academic achievement and that they increased racial tensions; those were the results of the efficacy studies which they commissioned. And then they implemented the policy anyway.
This is a great deep dive into the history surrounding busing policy in Boston: https://devinhelton.com/busing-in-boston
The excerpt on the testing:
And keep in mind, that race relations worsened even though this was a voluntary program. According to surveys, students and families at the white suburban schools were initially very favorable toward the program. This was not a busing program that was forced upon them.Overall, David Armor concludes:The available evidence on busing, then, seems to lead to two clear policy conclusions. One is that massive mandatory busing for purposes of improving student achievement and interracial harmony is not effective and should not be adopted at this time. The other is that voluntary integration programs such as METCO, ABC, or Project Concern should be continued and positively encouraged by substantial federal and state grants. Such voluntary programs should be encouraged so that those parents and communities who believe in the symbolic and potential (but so far unconfirmed) long-run benefits of induced integration will have ample opportunity to send their children to integrated schools. Equally important, these voluntary programs will permit social scientists and others to improve and broaden our understanding of the longer-run and other consequences of induced school integration. With a more complete knowledge than we now possess of this complicated matter, we shall hopefully be in a better position to design effective public education policies that are known in advance to work to the benefit of all Americans, both black and white.Thus, by 1972, the idea that integration was the fix for education had already been contradicted by the available evidence. If there was anything to the idea of integration, it would require more study to determine the circumstances where it might be a helpful policy.3In a sane world, if you have a radical social policy idea, you try a small experiment first, and only enlarge it once you prove the experiment works.In Boston, the experiment was tried and it did not work. Yet, two years later, a federal Judge would force the policy upon a half-million people.
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An omelet and a snort of coke a day keeps the doctor away.
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@Titanium
Definitely a violation of the NAP, which is intolerable to any civilized society. Should we be merciful and apply a punishment of six public lashings, or is execution the only remedy?
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@SamStevens
But of course, my keto brother. Let us spread the word, and dispute the pitiful heretics wherever they spread their cruel lies.
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When big arms are the only things one has got going for oneself, one really is limited in angles to mock others.
Ah bucko, but that's not the only thing I have going for me. While my biceps are indeed fairly robust, how quickly you forget my newly revealed sixpack and my keto-fuelled, sunny disposition. The keto diet has other blessings as well. My hair is stronger and silkier, my eyes are clearer. My posture has been corrected. My alcohol tolerance has risen to new heights. My second toe is now properly sized. There are no blessings which do not rain down upon the man who abandons his unfortunate pride and begins to eat as God intended.
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@Titanium
The keto diet not only fixed my irritable bowels, it also improved my mood and gave me a six pack. Without it, I would still be suffering low self esteem, as I would no doubt been thrown into a deep despair had my arms shrivelled to the noodleesque circumference typically associated with non-keto diets.
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@Titanium
No, Thett3 is just a bit of a cunt. TheHammer is beyond a doubt the most interesting member on this site.
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@keithprosser
She is obviously going for Muslim vote - all 45,000 of them, well under 1% of the population.
What else could she be doing? It's not like the fetishization of 'exotic culture' appeals to affluent liberal white women or anything. They never flock like moths to any white performing artist who puts on a Sari and wags her hips. It's unheard of; that's why Eat, Pray, Love completely flopped with this demographic.
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@thett3
I agree with you overall but there will be a pretty painful transition. Honestly I think behind the lofty rhetoric what Yang is really hoping to do is to get enough people to drop out of the workforce voluntarily so that there are jobs to go around for the remaining workforce. For example, I imagine a lot of married couples that can't get by on one income right now could do so if both parents brought in an extra $1,000 a month from Uncle Sam. I don't see how Yang hopes to get around the prices for everything just rising when we all get an extra $1,000 a month though...another reason why a negative income tax is better
This is why a VAT is good. If it were a sales tax, the company could raise prices and not pay the taxes on the units which aren't sold. With a VAT, the taxes are put on the product pre-retail, so there is much more pressure to sell because you are 'out' the VAT tax money if a product sits on the shelf. This puts power in the hands of consumers, and discourages rising prices because those lead to overstock and loss of VAT taxes on all product not sold. This especially goes for perishable items like food. The influx of cash will also lead to a flourishing of smaller local businesses, so any attempts to jack prices up will be met with competition. People buy from big box stores because its cheaper; raising the prices destroys the only advantage that they have at a time when local businesses will be getting a steroid shot and will be better positioned to lower prices if their competitors raise them. The VAT also punishes longer supply chains, so if you have people trying to jack prices up at every stage of production it will just cripple large companies who are competing with more lean mom and pop shops.
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@spacetime
Racial in-group bias hasn't been the predominant 'battle-line' since capitalism created a class divide. Any poor person has much more to gain by eating the rich than by fighting another poor person. This is why the upper class has consistently stirred up trouble and pitted them against one another. This is why our shitty bougie upper class supports more immigration - it means more dividing lines to slam a wedge into. It's why they supported school integration despite studies showing that it had no positive effect on education outcomes - it did cause race riots and a huge amount of resentment between different ethnicities in tight-knit working class communities (contrary to public education propaganda in the US, there was considerable opposition from poor white, Jewish, and black communities in the north towards forced integration). Destabilize those communities which resist your exercise of power and get them to fight one another in one move - brilliant! It's why they support welfare, affirmative action, section 8 housing in suburbs, and every other terrible policy decision - if you define 'terrible' as 'bad for the people whom it purports to 'help'. It's not terrible for the upper class - it serves their interests perfectly. Just look at the anaemic Marxists today - Marxism was once a force to be reckoned with, when poor people had community solidarity and could focus on a struggle for material needs. Not so much anymore; they're afraid to talk about economic injustice today, because if they imply that a poor white person has it bad then a billion high-strung social-striver minorities and barren catladies will be at their throats before you can say 'toss me a crumb from your table if I parrot this absurd grievance narrative, Mr. Capitalist'. So they become mired in petty identity politics and it renders them utterly ineffectual. That's the American dream of our sterile technocratic overlords: a sea of diverse, blank faces, too preoccupied with the Sisyphean task of reinstalling long-demolished community boundaries to fight their material deprivation, addicted to plastic junk and toxic food, working until they're no longer of use; then they can take poison into their veins. Well, a little more poison; they're likely already pumped full of opioids so that their employers could squeeze a few more productive months out of their crumbling bodies. Bread and circuses? We've moved beyond that. It's anaesthesia and the lottery that keeps America the Beautiful ticking along.
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@disgusted
How is that respectful? If a convent was shot up, would it be respectful for a politician to dress up in a habit to make a speech? After the Japanese earthquake and Tsunami, should Obama have gotten into his Noh theatre makeup and dressed Michele up in a kimono? Should our leaders don the cheongsam to discuss tragedy in China? A saree when Bangladesh floods?
It seems just weird to me. Maybe not necessarily insulting, but bizarre. I mean, Jacinda Ardern is a pretty outspoken feminist and an agnostic who left the Mormon church, who lives with a man whom she isn't wed to, has a child by him, and sees this as a superior arrangement, the 'way of the future'. Her stated beliefs run 100% antithetical to what the hijab stands for, which is humility and submission to God, things which she clearly sees as old fashioned and not for her. Is it 'respectful' for a stripper to wear a nun's habit? That seems like a more extreme situation, but in the same vein. If she isn't wearing the hijab because she respects what it stands for, then she's really just using it as a prop to elevate herself. After all, she wasn't doing too well politically until this shooting hit, she's a politician. When politicians see an opportunity for good press, they'll do anything.
The 'solidarity' movement was also founded by a bunch of affluent white women. This is a pretty notorious group when it comes to cheap tokenism and self-aggrandizing slacktivism.
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Why is the prime minister of New Zealand doing these interviews in hijab? She's obviously not a Muslim, she's your typical progressive woman who sees no problem with sexualizing herself. Nobody think that it's sincere, and she's going to go back to her typical dress in a few weeks, so it's not like she's genuinely wants to start showing respect to God. It's so bizarre. Imagine if some nutso shot up a meat packing plant full of Mexicans and Trump started holding somber press conferences wearing a sombrero for weeks on end.
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@Greyparrot
Not true, lol. Some monopolies are structural. Monopolies form naturally with capital accumulation; you can't actually disentangle government force from the 'economy', since a market by necessity exists within a context of government force. It's literally a set of conditions backed by the force of law carved out of anarchy. Same goes for property as an institution. The fact of the matter is that this system, if not tuned to keep wealth widely distributed, tends towards monopoly and corruption because it subjugates force to wealth.
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@Greyparrot
What if I told rich people are usually incompetent in terms of actual production and drift by on a combination of naked graft and the support of institutional power which insulates them from the consequences of their bad decisions?Sure, the ultra rich purchase the government to avoid the inevitable bankruptcies associated with incompetency. No doubt. Too big to fail is a direct result of Wickard vs Filburn.
It's not a function of government, it's a function of scale. Even without our current government, big companies possess inertia which allows them to crush competition. This is why every thinker worth reading predicted, accurately, that capitalism would undermine itself and devolve into socialism, because markets simply aren't sustainable if you scale them to this level.
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@Greyparrot
Redpill moment.What if I told you that rich people are not in fact greedy as people like to portray, rather they generally sacrifice a lot of short term pleasures so they can afford long term investments and savings.What if I told you that the greediest people are often made poor through their own greed by spending and consuming more than they make while never sacrificing short term desires to invest in themselves and in the future?
What if I told rich people are usually incompetent in terms of actual production and drift by on a combination of naked graft and the support of institutional power which insulates them from the consequences of their bad decisions?
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@Alec
So we can agree that separatist movements are better?When did I say that?
You listed positive consequences, so I just assumed.
What you think is irrelevant.So by your definition, the US commits this not by killing anyone, but by merely encouraging people to assimilate? If we all had our own language, there would be many cultures. But it would be impossible to communicate.
This is why the Swiss communicate entirely through sign language. Since it's impossible to learn two languages.
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MUELLER WILL NAIL DRUMPF JUST YOU WAIT I KNOW HE PEED ON THOSE HOOKERS IT WAS HER TURN
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@KingArthur
Fifty dead Muslims in New Zealand is a tragedy. A million dead Muslims in the Middle East is a bipartisan foreign policy consensus.Simply put - there is too much tragedy in the world for us to cover it all. The exhaustion factor would be 10 fold what it is now. To be honest there is a general lack of coverage for all African news unless you read al Jazeera.New Zealand is a western nation that suffered from an attack that is similar to what the US has seen. That's why it got the coverage it did.
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@SamStevens
That's certainly one aspect, but what's often overlooked is that exposure to diverse viewpoints helps to moderate your own opinions. The worst excesses of ideology develop in isolation. The new left sees the alt right as this insidious tentacled beast slowly 'corrupting' people, because they are a puritanical and see the smallest deviations from their doctrine as intolerable. Just look at the tranny shit if you want evidence of that. A lot of corporate censorship started during something comparatively silly like gamergate because these leftists were FURIOUS that people were pushing back against them and seemed to have some semblance of organization. The immediate response was to cut these people off from contact with 'normal people' to preserve the normies from that perceived corrupting influence. That was the intent. But when you cut people out who have mildly anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-BLM views from general discussion in order to preserve a pro-left consensus, who have you shut those people in with? Who are they going to be talking to now? People who are significantly worse then them. People who see no moral problems with recourse to violence. Those people will immediately start to influence one another, and from that point all they need to do is mildly corrupt a 'normie' and the left will immediately and with great exuberance fling that person out of general discussion. Certainly being cut off from normal discourse is frustrating, but the ideas which we are exposed to shape us, and the left is creating a situation where if you are mildly right wing online you will be put into the speech equivalent of a cage match with Nazis.
This is why it is a goal of the hardest fringes of the alt right to increase censorship on mainstream platforms. This is why they troll so hard; the backlash benefits them when it comes to recruiting. If people get banned for 'misgendering' someone, these people benefit. That's a huge part of accelerationism.
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They're charging a kid with a 14 year sentence for sharing the video. Yeah, this is going to happen a LOT more.
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I agree with some of this, but there will DEFINITELY be much more shooters like this. The inter-political divisions within the West pretty much necessitate it. If you've read the manifesto like I have, you've seen his stated goals. He's not wrong about the political state of the West, and our news media and political pundits are doing exactly what he said he wanted them to do. Their response is going to be a purge of right wing people from Twitter, Reddit, and other platforms. They will clamor excessively to it, and the platforms will cave. The decadent, neoliberal ruling class has legitimately gone insane; they seem to think that once they get a gamergater, a Nazi, a trump supporter, and a traditionalist Christian kicked off of twitter those people just... disappear. Out of sight, out of mind. They don't, they fall into the underbelly of the internet, and they all start talking to each other, and as they fall further and further through the cracks the Nazi has a more and more outsized voice among these outcasts. That's just human nature; people who feel cornered are much more receptive to hatred of the outgroup. I'm sure that over the next few months, more and more people are going to be pushed into radicalization echo chambers, and that the alt right will only grow because of this. They also might try to push gun confiscation, which in America will absolutely stoke the very sentiment that they are trying to stamp out.
I've pulled multiple people out of the worst excesses of these spaces, but it's becoming impossible for me to do so because they simply aren't communicating with the outside world anymore. And they aren't communicating because left wing advocates are intentionally isolating them because they want to pretend that none of this is happening.
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@Swagnarok
So, I saw a poll yesterday saying that among Democrats Andrew Yang is the preferred candidate for only about 1% of them. I think we can safely say his campaign is a train bound for nowhere.
> Writing off political candidates for polling poorly before the first debate
Whew, I knew some people were slow learners, but this is impressive!
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@Alec
That genocide happened a long time ago and no present day Canadian participated in it. I don't think cultural genocide/assimilation should be genocide because no one is supposed to die in it.
What you think is irrelevant. By the definition of the word genocide is not necessarily violent on the individual level, as it's a form of collective obliteration.
Good, they should! So should the natives, since you seem so determined to bulldoze the few square feet of land they have left to build another shitty pipeline.Separatist movements may cause a war, which causes death, and is bad for the unity of Canada. Assimilation on the other hand, would help the country out a lot.
So we can agree that separatist movements are better?
How is culture even worth having around if it can cause separatist movements?
I wonder why people on every side of the spectrum want to round so-called 'conservatives' up and put them in camps? It's inexplicable. It will be a mystery forever.
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@Alec
You know, the part that English people genocided their way into holding.Although they outnumbered the French, genocide was rare or nonexistent,
Leave the French people in peace on the tiny bit of land that your shitty ancestors didn't pillage them out of.If we don't assimilate them, then they will want to break away to form their own country.
Good, they should! So should the natives, since you seem so determined to bulldoze the few square feet of land they have left to build another shitty pipeline.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
I don't think that's accurate at all; if it were, phenomena like the Cagots would never have existed. In reality, the group which presents the biggest threat to rural whites (the majority of whites) are urban whites. Black people, on their own, would not be pushing for massive Latin American immigration. They have no reason to want that. They certainly want more resources and political autonomy, but its simple self-interest. The real danger to working class whites are the urbane bourgeoisie liberals who control the means of production and want a proletariat class which is as divided, materially desperate, and impoverished as possible. Those are the people who have all of the incentives to provoke ethnic replacement and economic disenfranchisement. These are the people who materially benefit from said division, and from the exploitation of cheap labor. Every intense ethnic hatred is borne towards the proximal, not the distal. The Germans didn't hate the Japanese with a genocidal passion, they hated German Jews. The Soviets hated the Kulaks, the English hated the Irish. And the American upper class hates rednecks. The idea that vastly disparate cultures hate each other and compete more intensely is bunk; that only happens when community boundaries are dissolved (which, again, the urban whites do against the wishes of all communities involved. Look at the history of busing in Boston.)
White working class people, very rightly, don't see white people who are part of this country's privileged power structure (but hilariously larp as socialists) as 'brothers'. Those people hate us from on high, and they want nothing more than for us to die pathetically. The only black people who think like that are the ones who have, through social climbing and 'bourgeoisization', embedded themselves into our decadent urban power structures and alienated themselves from their own communities in the process. But that's not your average black person; most black people have simple self-interests which can be reasonably appealed to (like any healthy human being does).
Trying to make racial appeals to a class which, for hundreds of years, has been bounded by a clan-based ideological system and haunted by a deeply-rooted, cultural fear and loathing of anything which is rural or rustic, is insane. I'd gladly join arm in arm with any group which wanted to tear these degenerate Brahmins down from their ivory towers and neutralize them.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
Okay, so White Liberals are arguably more leftist than Black Democrats, given that they emphasise the role of racial discrimination against Blacks, and seem less concerned with individual effort. I think this could be a correlation argument for the Progressive narrative not fading in intensity? The ideological narrative is so strong here that it has convinced Whites against their racial interest over that of Blacks, when both (millennial) racial groups rate race as their most important personal identifier: (https://imgur.com/a/MWT4uRo). In other words, Whites have been convinced, through mere words (which oppose their racial in-group preference) more convincingly than Black's far more powerful racial in-group bias.Perhaps it has gone from insanely intense, to only very intense, but this at least shows how insanely powerful the narrative is.
I don't think this is how leftist whites works. Their outgroup isn't black people, or asians, or Jews, or Muslims. Their outgroup is rural whites; that's who they hate with a visceral, borderline genocidal passion. Compared to white liberals, blacks in my personal experience have much less of a fervid hatred for white people, and it's usually the UMC white liberals who push the blacks to have more hatred for rednecks. It reminds me of the the Cagots. In Basque country, there was a sub-group called the Cagots for most of the region's very long history. These people were absolutely loathed and discriminated against viciously, being forced to live apart, stripped of political rights, even segregated while receiving the eucharist. They were the same ethnicity as the rest of the Basques, spoke the same language, and followed the same religion. The only real difference is that they were descended by families who had been branded 'Cagots' somewhere in the misty recesses of time. They were seen as backwards and heretical by the rest of the population. This, to me, seems a perfect parallel for the visceral hatred which bourgeois liberals feel for rural Americans.
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@Uther-Penguin
I think it's really important to punish traffickers/sellers of drugs like heroine (especially in the US). I think the punishments for trafficking should actually be much, much more severe. This includes doctors. At the same time, I think that we shouldn't punish addicts, that it's both morally wrong and bad policy. We should instead rehabilitate them and invest some resources into making them productive again. It's also important to solve the underlying issues like unemployment, driven by automation and outsourcing.
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@Alec
Then stay in the rest of Canada. You know, the part that English people genocided their way into holding. Leave the French people in peace on the tiny bit of land that your shitty ancestors didn't pillage them out of.
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@triangle.128k
@thett3
If there's a dem candidate, like Yang, who is a mixed bag instead of 100% awful, you should enthusiastically support him for the dem nomination. I wouldn't vote for him over Trump, but if he's still in by the time I can vote I'm definitely voting for him in the dem primary
^^^
If we push economic populism on the left and nationalism on the right, then the compromise between them suddenly starts to look a lot like the third position, which is the polar opposite of cancerous global liberal capitalism.
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Official YangGang2020 anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=147HGyNULkA
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@Alec
I think Quebec should be assimilated to be more like the rest of Canada from a linguistic standpoint. This prevents separatist movements and unifies Canada more.
I think that the Québécois should tie bags of cement to the anglophones' ankles and unceremoniously dump them in le Golfe du Saint-Laurent. This prevents trashy anglos from ruining another corner of God's beautiful earth.
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@triangle.128k
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@triangle.128k
We're getting that anyway, plus hyper-capitalism,so might as well get some of that SACK!
Look at CPAC lol. These people obviously haven't got the message, and are more interested in tilting at Ocasio-Cortez-shaped windmills and sending boatloads of money to Israel than fixing capitalism in any substantial way. Yang's economic positives more than outweigh his social negatives. For years, the paradigm for the white working class has been 'the democrats want an economy that fucks me over and hates my values, while the right wants an economy that fucks me over and protects my values'. The right seems determined to capitulate on most culture war issues in order to preserve the ugliest aspects of capitalism. Yang offers a distinct economic appeal, and sees the white working class as genuinely worth saving. If a large portion of 'ship jumpers' make up his coalition he will also be forced (or allowed) to moderate his social stances. This is the dem primary, lol.
With Trump vs. Yang, the white working class also has the two best options on either side of the aisle on the ticket as well.
Also, with the Supreme Court as it currently stands we likely won't have to worry about gun rights for a long while.
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#YANGGANG2020
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@thett3
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@Mharman
There are many people who work for corporations and are pro-capitalist. Your argument is invalid.
Yes there are. They are the people who are materially rewarded far beyond their productive capacity or moral worth by corporate capitalism.
Or they're just spectacularly dumb or wrapped up in motivated reasoning. But there's a reason that people tend to 'grow out' of libertarianism: exposure to reality tarnishes the appeal of illusions. Which is why you didn't answer the question: you're still in the stage of your life where you can entertain the idea that capitalism is meritocratic without too much cognitive dissonance. My favorite stage is the next one, if nothing else then for the pure delicious irony of it: 'real capitalism has never been tried!'
This is also, incidentally, why you meet a lot of libertarians who work for the government: they think that the problems of scale and managerialism are unique to government, when they are a natural result of the capital accumulation which originally gave capitalism its name.
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@n8nrgmi
Public restrooms should not exist. They are horrifically vulgar.
Neither should transgenderism, for that matter.
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@n8nrgmi
I think we should have an absolute monarch, so this is a step in the right direction.
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@Mharman
It's very relevant. The idea that corporations reward competence with advancement is so absurd that it could only be held by someone who's never worked for one.
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@Swagnarok
Probably? They're almost up to 350 at this point.
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