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@Speedrace
Lolllll
Laughing out loud loud loud loud loud loud?
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@Lunatic
The reason I assume you've played before is because you picked up on the understandings of roles very easily. You didnt question the sensor role which makes me think you've potentially played on DDO where that role was more frequent. Also you just barely said you made yourself a pgo that last night phase. Which was smart btw but thats also not a common live mafia role, something I think would be more likely seen in forum games. Also your name seems like your trying to play anonymously obviously. You dont have a lot of noob tells, tunneling, etc.I could be wrong but either way glad to have another intelligent mafia player in the community regardless
I did have a DDO account for a grand total of a week, but I didn't make any forum posts, mafia or otherwise. I have never played online mafia before joining this site. Before I played on this site, I read the beginner's mafia guide that Earth posted on this site. But perhaps the biggest reason I learned it quickly was because of its incredible similarity to chess. You can calculate what move to make. You can logically analyze the position to see what works and what doesn't. While there is no contradictory testimony in chess, it is easy to figure out. And, most similar to chess, it is easy to miss a move that completely overturns your logic. Whether a knight forking my king and queen or a Lunatic with an incredibly convincing bluff, it can be and will be calculated - or else.
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@Lunatic
It was brilliant. It looked incredibly risky because, if you were mafia, then anyone who tracked would have seen that you actually visited PressF. What I didn't realize is that
A. You made yourself look so pro-town that no one would track you
and
B. If someone did, you could use the ability to block trackers and watchers.
More than that, your "results" were actually the truth.
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@Vader
It is a joke that oro always vtl's me first in the games. it is a running gag
Oh. I'd seen that when I read through previous mafia threads, but I'd forgotten about it.
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@oromagi
VTL SupaDudz
Why? What's up with the vtl'ing before we have any info?
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@Lunatic
I am not 100% sure SirAnonymous is actually a noob. He seemed to pick up on the mechanics pretty quickly in the quickfire we did just barely for only having played live mafia. I could be wrong though.
As I said before the game started, I have played mafia live, so I knew the basic rules. I had never played it online until the Lucid Dreamers mafia that just ended. However, I can easily learn any game that can be logically analysed. This time, however, you won't fool me with an unverifiable bluff - I hope. :)
This time, I'll challenge my assumptions earlier.
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How did WP kill me? I was a PGO. Does that just mean that he dies too? And how could Lunatic make WP kill me?
GG Lunatic. I should have suspected you the moment you lived through NP1, but that brilliant sensor gambit threw me off. As it was, I didn't figure out how you could have been bluffing until the last NP.
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@drafterman
Obligatory noob pressure:VTL SirAnonymous
What and why?
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@A-R-O-S-E
This is my hidden char claim so I can landmine maf later: ByEkLsT
What's the point of making an encoded claim? Aren't you concerned the mafia will decode it?
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@Lunatic
I'm clearly a Trump supporter. As you can see I have a profile picture of the villain skekSil from the dark crystal. He is known because he lies and manipulates. Trump lies and manipulates. Coincidence? I think not!
That sounds like you're a liar. But if you're lying, then you're lying about having a profile picture of liar, so you are lying about lying, so you must be telling the truth, in which case you support Trump, who lies, which means that you think lying is good, so you must be a liar, which means you're lying about being a Trump supporter, which means that you don't support him because he lies, so you don't approve of lies, which must mean that you're telling the truth, in which case you like skekSil, who lies, so you like lying, so you must be lying to me. . .
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@Lunatic
Incoherent Trump-Supporting Moron! Simply because it's five-o'clock somewhere doesn't mean it's five-o'clock everywhere!
Fact Check:
FALSE
More (Less?) seriously, you gave me a good laugh when I saw the title of that song. Thanks for sharing!
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@Castin
We all know Jesus was explicitly anti-robot-clone-army, it was the last thing he said to his disciples at the Last Supper.
Obviously, this was right after He told them that if they didn't have a sword, they needed to go out and buy a .45-cal, lever-action, fully semiautomatic machine gun AR-15 with burstfire ability and a high capacity 1234-round multi-clip magazine.
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I don't know how this is possible, but this thread is just as dumb as http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ (No, I'm not saying Jesus isn't Savior. You will have to read it for yourself to understand what I mean. There is no way I can adequately describe its awesome awfulness). This is extremely close to record-breaking levels of ignorance, arrogance, and pure fabrication.
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@ILikePie5
it’s morning right?
Politifact Fact Check:
FALSE
Anyone who has a profile picture of Donald Trump is clearly just as dishonest as the president himself. In other words, everything he says, no matter how obviously true, must be a lie. Since there are parts of the world where it is not morning, this statement is clearly a lie. Since it isn't morning, it is not yet time to start the game.
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@Lucy
I'm bowing out from the echo chamber.
I completely understand. I once tried to debate three different people with no one on my side, and they didn't even come at the same time. I was almost overwhelmed. I can only imagine what it's like to debate 5 to 10 people at the same time. I also remember how I felt when one of them kept refuting what I had said after I had stated I was finished. I will not inflict that upon you, except by responding to a personal attack.
To the extent you believe this, you haven't paid attention to a word I've written and you have no idea what you're talking about.
While I admit to skimming some of your posts, I did indeed pay attention to the ones I responded to, and I do know what I'm talking about.
If anyone thinks they have an actual, well-thought out critique, challenge me to a debate or PM me.
If I have the time, I may take you up on that offer.
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It sounds like it's possible for multiple groups to win. For instance, if an SK takes out all three targets, the game could still go on and someone else could win as well.
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@Lucy
People feel threatened by our existence
This is completely untrue. No one (with the probable exception of real-life internet trolls, but there aren't too many of those) feels threatened by your existence. They feel threatened because there are people pushing for laws that force them to use preferred pronouns. They feel threatened because biological males are being allowed into their daughter's bathrooms. Are some of them good people? Sure. Are some of them predators pretending to be transgender to gain access to women's bathrooms? You would have to be a fool to say no. It's not the existence of trans people that makes people feel threatened; it's the radical activism of a few trans people and leftists that threatens them.
why do chromosomes determine your sex or your gender?
Why does the fact that it isn't day mean that it's night? Why does the fact that an object has pages covered in words mean it's a book, magazine, or pamphlet? Why is a circle round? I say that it's possible for circles to be square; if you disagree, then why are you threatened by the existence of square circles?
Concerning your discussion of intersex people, it is irrelevant for one simple reason (probably more than one, but one is all I need at the moment): intersex is reflected in biological reality, whereas transgenderism is not. You may protest that transgender people's brains are similar to the opposite sex, but that proves nothing. When the brain disagrees with the body, the body isn't the one that's wrong.
It is common knowledge that the suicide rates among trans people is abnormally high, and that many blame that rate on "transphobia" and discrimination. However, this is complete nonsense. The suicide rate among trasngender people is higher than that of blacks during slavery and Jews in the Holocaust. It is only comparable to people with mental illnesses. Can you explain this?
Now, I want to be absolutely clear that I don't think this makes you any less valuable as a person. I'm not trying to dehumanize you, deny your existence, or any of the other things that the left accuses those who disagree with them of doing. I am not saying this because I am a bigot or a "transphobe" (which I put in quotes because it is such an abuse of the English language to label something that has nothing to do with fear as a phobia) or a hater. I don't hate anyone. I don't think that having mental issues makes you less valuable, and I don't think it means that you need to be put in an institution or anything like that.
Let me ask you this: why do think using a trans person's chosen name is good, but not their pronouns?
There is - in all seriousness, I am not joking nor jesting, the truth testifies that I do not lie - an idiot out there who changed his name to the number on his football uniform. You can change your name to whatever you want.
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@Vader
I second Lunatic's question: why did you vtl water?
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I messed up with my memory. Supa vtl'ed water before water vtl'ed Supa.
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@WaterPhoenix
It's not reverse psychology. I wanted to know exactly what everyone thinks and why. Explaining our logic allows others to see what they missed and makes it more likely that the mafia will slip.Why not you? Is this reverse psychology to get me to believe you're town? Or is it you being mafia and making me think you're town? halpppppp.
Also, in the event of a VTNL, we would still know what the dead player thought rather than losing their knowledge.
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@Lunatic
You could be right. While there is one way WP could be mafia, Supa gave no indication of knowing what it was. He provided no reasoning for his decision to vote for water. There is still one reason for his vote: immediately before he changed his vote, water voted to lynch him. It's not proof by any means, but it makes things look really bad for Supa.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@WaterPhoenix
Let's try a thought experiment. Based purely on behavior and not logic, who would you say is town and who is mafia?
I would say that Lunatic is definitely town, supra seems a little scummy, and WP is somewhere in between.
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@Vader
Why do you think it's water? At this point, it's important to know exactly why we think someone is guilty. You may have caught something I missed.
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@WaterPhoenix
Why him and not me? I'm curious to know your reasoning. It may help me figure it out.
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@WaterPhoenix
Maybe, supa made his role a PGO, I mean that would make sense right? Just forgot since it has to be either supa or me...VTL Supa
I've had that thought, and it fits the facts. There are, however, two problems with it.
1. It would mean that the mafia didn't kill anyone. While possible, this would be really weird.
2. There would have been no way for Supa to know that you didn't visit anyone during the night if that were the case. While he could have bluffed, why would he choose such a risky bluff?
I really have no idea what the solution is. The evidence against any of us is weak, but if I didn't know that I was town, I would guess that I was the mafia.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@WaterPhoenix
I forgot to tag you in my above comments.
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This is really sad, but if I was Lunatic and I had to choose, I think I would lynch me. Of course, I am also highly inexperienced and unfamiliar with scum-tells, so I'm sure he's seen things I've missed.
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One thing that I don't understand is why the mafia killed PressF. What's the motivation? Wouldn't it have made more sense to kill a highly active player like Lunatic or me?
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Here is my analysis of how likely it is each of us is the mafia.
Lunatic: I'll start with him because he is the easiest. Firstly, his behavior has been very pro-town. Secondly, it makes almost no sense if he is mafia. Starting with the whole "I was a sensor" thing before any of us had the chance to post would be an incredibly risky bluff. No matter what action he took during the night, there would be no way for him to prevent us from finding out something about him and proving that he's lying. Consequently, if he was mafia, he would not have done something that could so easily have blown up in his face.
WaterPhoenix: WP is also easy simply because there is so little evidence about him. If Lunatic is correct that either himself, me, or Supa is mafia, then WP must be town. Since there is no reason for Lunatic to lie, this is almost certain. Almost. The only way WP could be mafia is if he used a bus on Lunatic during the night, thereby switching any results anyone would get from acting on them. This would mean that Lunatic did not sensor himself, me, and Supa, but instead censored me, Supa, and WP, giving a mafia result where it didn't belong. The reason that WP would have had to switch with Lunatic is Supa's result that WP didn't visit anyone in the night, and the only person who WP could switch with that didn't visit anyone in the night was Lunatic. This scenario seems highly contrived to me, and there is no evidence to support it. It is purely speculative.
SirAnonymous: If Lunatic is telling the truth and WP did not use a bus to switch himself with Lunatic, both of which are reasonably safe assumptions, then I am one of two suspects and must be inspected very closely. The best evidence against me is that I admitted to tracking PressF during the night. On its face, this is neither scummy or towny, as anyone could have visited PressF. Theoretically speaking, however, I could have said this to preempt anyone who might have tracked me and found that I visited PressF, making me a likely suspect. The only other evidence against me that I can think of at the moment is that, in DP1, it looked a lot like I was buddying up with Lunatic. Put together, these two pieces of evidence make a plausible case, so it is necessary to defend myself. Firstly, if I was mafia, I would not have done nearly so much analysis that could be useful for the town. Secondly, and this is a far better defense, at least in my opinion, I am not mafia because, if I am, I am hopelessly bungling the job. Assuming I'm mafia, let's examine what ScumAnonymous did. I began by buddying with Lunatic so that, if he died, I would look town. I also acted very pro-town in DP1 to trick people. Then, I - what? Fail to kill Lunatic, completely spoiling the whole point of buddying with him? Instead, I kill PressF for reasons unknown, leaving Lunatic, the most active and analytical, and therefore the most dangerous, DP1 towny, alive. Apparently regaining my senses, I claim to have tracked PressF so that anyone who tracked me would think I visited him for innocent reasons. But why would I do that when there were better options? If I wanted to avoid detection, I should have used the bus so that anyone tracking me would get results for someone else and then claimed something that no one could contradict, like making myself bulletproof. Simply put, I'm not mafia because I would not have played that stupidly. Of course, this could be a WIFOM strategy to make myself look innocent. But consider what you would have done as mafia:
1. Deliberately play a sub-optimal style in the hopes of convincing people that it makes no sense for me to be mafia
2. Play optimally so I don't have to convince people in the first place.
SupaDudz: Now we come to it. Firstly, SupaDudz was almost silent in DP1. He did no analysis, and the only thing he did that was pro-town was VTNL, which could just as easily be a mafia trying to look town. Thanks to Lunatic, he is one of the two prime suspects. Most importantly, I know I'm town, so he is almost certainly mafia (which is useless to the rest of you, since you have no way to tell if I'm lying). On the other hand, his claim that he tracked WP without first knowing what WP said is not indicative of being mafia. If he did not actually track WP, that would be an incredibly risky thing to say. But on the other hand, it provides a perfect alibi as a mafia. Think of it: Supa gambles that he is more likely to be caught by saying something about his night actions that is provably false than by being tracked or copped. He rolls the dice and decides to actually do what he will claim: track WP. That way, no one would catch him lying because he was actually telling the truth. Luckily for him, the only person who decides to track him is also the person that he decided to kill. In the end, the only person who could prove that Supa is mafia is dead.
After writing this, I am actually less convinced that Supa did it than I was before. While I think he would be the type to make such a gamble, the odds of him randomly killing the one person who randomly decided to track him are pretty low. In contrast, the odds of WP bussing over other options don't seem so bad. The only thing that would have led to a contradiction is if he bussed someone who visited him, giving Supa the result that WP visited WP during the night.
Overall, I'm not sure whether Supa or WP did it. I'm almost wondering if we should VTNL so the next round is 2-1 and we have more info.
Unvote
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@Vader
That's true, but WP is confirmed as town, unless Lunatic is lying, which would be an insane risk for him to take.
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@Vader
a VTNL is a no lynch. A mafia would not go out of there way to VTNL, they would try to push a lynch because then they could force a mis lynch when LYLO bc they make up facts to lynch someone
On the contrary, pushing for a lynch would have been a scum-tell. By pushing for a VTNL, the mafia looks pro-town. Think "wine in front of me."
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@Vader
Misread what he said. If he did not VTNL, I think the case is not a bandwagon, no mafia actively does that
I'm genuinely confused. No mafia actively does what? VTNL? The two of us are the only possible mafia (barring some bizarre circumstance), but both of us did that.
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@Vader
It's interesting how you said people, plural, not person. It's also interesting that the person who died didn't vote for no lynch. Typo, or slip?
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@Vader
Lunatic didn't town WP because he didn't do anything in the night. He towned him because the mafia voted for no lynch and WP didn't.
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@Vader
Unless WP did something to protect himself from all night actions, how did you manage to get no results?
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Also I guess it depends on the mod and how they process night actions, but if PressF was killed I am a bit surprised he was still able to visit anyone.
That's true. I don't know why he was allowed to visit even though he died.
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@Lunatic
Just curious what was the reason for tracking pressF?
Another motivation for asking our roles at the end was that he was a mafia trying to get us to tell us his plan so he knew how to protect himself. It wasn't much, but it was somewhat suspicious. It was either track him for that or SupaDudz for suspicious levels of inactivity and quickly jumping on the no lynch bandwagon. I didn't think it was you because you acted very pro-town, and I knew from previous mafia threads that WP is always like that, so I had nothing to go off for him. I wasn't sure whether to track PressF or Supa, so I guessed. Apparently, I guessed wrongly.
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Now that I've thought about it, I realized that Lunatic almost can't be lying. If he is, he would obviously be mafia. However, it would be insanely risky to lie because it would get him lynched in a hurry if someone tracked him during the night and found that he visited PressF. Consequently, neither he nor WaterPhoenix can be mafia, except in some bizarre scenario where WP is mafia and used the bus to switch himself with me, Supa, or Lunatic, causing the mafia result to appear where it doesn't belong. Since I don't know if that would actually work, and it seems unlikely anyway, WP and Lunatic are town-confirmed. Since I know I'm town, Supa must be mafia.
VTL SupaDudz
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@Lunatic
That's really useful information. I hadn't heard of that role before. I decided to be a tracker during the night and found that PressF went to see SupaDudz during the night. However, we don't necessarily have to lynch this round. If the mafia kills tonight but we don't lynch, then it would still be 2 to 1.
Obviously, I claim I'm town, which means that Supadudz is mafia (unless Lunatic is completely making this up. Does anyone know if it's allowed to lie about what the moderator said in a PM?). However, I doubt that Lunatic is lying. Supadudz hardly said anything last round, which doesn't seem normal for him (based on several mafia threads I read on this site).
My posting may be sporadic throughout the day due to having a life off the website, so if you do lynch me, don't do it for inactivity because I do have a reason for it. I will be available during some times of today and most of tomorrow, anyway.
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@warren42
1. SirAnonymous
2. iLikePie5
3. drafterman
4. PressF
5. Supa
6. Oromagi
7. Lunatic
8. Greyparrot
9. Speedrace
10. WaterPhoenix
11. Airmax1227
12. A-R-O-S-E
13. Wylted
That looks like 13 to me.
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@Greyparrot
I don't care about who was invited. I would like to see a debate where if you mentioned the word "Trump" once, you get a warning and every time after, you get your speaking time reduced by 1 minute for every violation.
But then all of them would burn up all of their time in the opening statements. Don't you understand the importance of 2-3 solid hours of grandstanding and sweet nothings without a single second of actual substance?!
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@3RU7AL
That's interesting. I don't go as far as that , but you seem very consistent in your actions and beliefs. It was great talking to you and learning about your ideaa.
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1. SirAnonymous
2. iLikePie5
3. drafterman
4. PressF
5. Supa
6. Oromagi
7. Lunatic
8. Greyparrot
9. Speedrace
10. WaterPhoenix
11. Airmax1227
12. A-R-O-S-E
13.
We only need one more.
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@3RU7AL
Of course, in common language, I think both of us are opposed to fascism and autocracy because those are normally understood in relation to government.
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@3RU7AL
Do you think it would be fair to say you are a conditional pro-quasi-fascist and a conditional anti-quasi-fascist?
When it comes to government, no. When it comes to things other than government, that could be a good description. How about yourself? Are you always opposed to autocracy, or do you think it can be good in some contexts?
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@3RU7AL
So, does this mean you believe that a quasi-fascist autocracy is a GOOD THING in a military (and perhaps corporate) context?
In a military context, yes. In a corporate context, sometimes. A lot of different business models have been tried. Some work better than others, and some work only in certain situations. Autocratic corporations do work, but they can't be completely dictatorial. They do need to listen to their employees and treat them well. Otherwise, no one will be willing to work for them. The reason autocratic corporations work is that, because they are not governments, they are incapable of being completely dictatorial. If they are, they will eventually go out of business.
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@Lunatic
Makes sense, but it would take a really boneheaded mafia to fall for it. Even so, it was probably worth a shot.
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