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@Mopac
Equivocation is not evidence of god(s)...and if it were, why would it be evidence for your god and no one else's?
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It should be noted, blasphemy laws are not exclusive to Islamic countries.
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@ethang5
There is no verifiable evidence of god(s). If there were, then it (and not beliefs of "thousands upon thousands") would be front and center.
If you have verifiable indisputable evidence for god, Id love to see it. Otherwise, your updated form of 'lightning is evidence of Zeus' will be dismissed.
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@janesix
I dont claim to know your beliefs cause harm, but if you found they did then the OP is applicable.
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@Mopac
And if none of these sources even existed, it is simply true that there is nothing else that even comes close to being worthy of being called God.
So, your 'evidence' boils down to an argument from incredulity? That's quite an unimpressive (and illogical) argument.
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@Mopac
Reality and truth exist. On this we agree. However you arbitrarily duct tape "God" to these for no discernable reason.
Assertion is not evidence, Mo.
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@janesix
If your belief causes no harm to others, then it really makes no difference. However, if it does, then "good enough for me" is no justification.
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@janesix
Your standard of evidence is not consistent.
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...look both ways before crossing? Me too. Making informed decisions based on verifiable indisputable evidence is a strategy that works.
However, when it comes to the subject of god, this standard of evidence cannot be met. If belief were to come without negative consequences (to the individual or society), then this wouldnt be a bad thing. Unfortunately, this all to often is not the case.
That being said, if something is believed true on insufficient evidence* AND this belief causes harm, should not it be tossed away? The alternative is equivalent to crossing the road without the benefit of the senses.
*Belief in god is held on insufficient evidence and often in the face of evidence to the contrary. (Fundamentalism, literalist interpretations, Young Earth Creationism, etc)
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@Polytheist-Witch
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@Kasmic
The observation that we live in a deeply racist, Sexist and homophobic society does not imply that we have made no progress. Nor could it be inferred from such a position that progressivism is a waste of time.
Pinker would agree. Here is the quote in context:
"But it's in the nature of progress that it erases its tracks, and its champions fixate on the remaining injustices and forget how far we have come. An axiom of progressive opinion, Especially in universities, Is that we continue to live in a deeply racist, Sexist, And homophobic society—which would imply that progressivism is a waste of time, Having accomplished nothing after decades of struggle.Like other forms of progressophobia, the denial of advances in rights has been abetted by sensational headlines."
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@Outplayz
Well, like you said, it's false unless he meant to say they are not respected by him!
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@Mopac
If god is not a "who, then you accept god as an "it", yes? If so, do you consider yourself to be a pantheist?
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@Mopac
Your argument (if it can be called an argument) is pure semantics and equivocation. We already have words for the "Truth" and the "Ultimate Reality" (truth and reality) and your conflation of these with "God" is arbitrary and meaningless.
You'll need something more than a dictionary to establish the existence of gods.
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@Mopac
"Dragon" and "Pixie" are in the dictionary too, but it takes more than a definition to legitimately suggest (much less validate) the existence of these things or gods.
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@EtrnlVw
V is asking by what criteria design is determined. Without something "un-designed" to compare suspected designed things to, there can be no legitimate declaration of design ...or a designer. In other words, Paley's watch can only be recognized as designed if the rock it is sitting on is not design.
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@ethang5
God needs no "proof".
If this is true, then what purpose does your solar 'lightbulb' argument (in the context of this thread) serve?
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@ethang5
Untrue. I was proofing the creation of the sun, not proofing God.
This is blatant dishonesty.
No one has to assume creation. You and I and the ground on which we stand are creation
It's true a painting needs a painter, a building a builder, a creation a creator, etc., but we first need to know said thing is a painting, building, or creation. Show existence in general (or the sun) is a creation, and then (and only then) can talk about the necessity of a creator be legitimate.
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@ravensjt
This is different than what you originally said unless you erroneously hold atheism to be a claim against the existence of god(s).
That being said, you're clarification is accurate and reasonable.
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@ethang5
Your logical proofs assume creation and a creator. You're assuming a creator when trying to proof a creator. Its fallacious reasoning.
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Agreed, but you were objecting to a question and not a statement.
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@Polytheist-Witch
...and, thus, my question.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Raven, as I understand him, appeals to ignorance of the universe as an argument for god and against atheism. I've asked how this is not a fallacy. I've not called him ignorant, and if I had, it would be true, as I'm sure he would acknowledge since he admits the ignorance we all have.
This is hardly arrogance. Arrogance is (among other things) admitting no ignorance - which is not done with sincere questions.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Since when is a sincere question an argument?
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@ravensjt
And although it may seem futile to assign a percentage to the likely hood of a "God-like" being in the Universe (or any "Universe") when considering how vast (endless) the Universe is, the chances seem high enough to me to make the stance of Atheism faulty (imo)
How is this not an argument from ignorance?
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@secularmerlin
In that case I don't think any god(s) necessarily involved
Agreed.
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@secularmerlin
I don't know how many gods are required, but you can be sure there will be at least one human involved. :-P
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@Castin
I knew I should have gone with "Slim Shady" instead of Skepticalone..what was I thinking?!
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@RationalMadman
Let's give Casten...er...uh... I mean 'the imposter' a chance to admit their innocence...er..uh..guilt.
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@RationalMadman
This imposter has also hacked my account on DDO....the fiend! ;-)
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@Greyparrot
[...] still waiting on what Trump has done that you consider as a totalitarian president.
I stated Trump 'seems to have an affinity for totalitarianism' not that he was a "totalitarian president", and what I've provided should be sufficient.
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@Greyparrot
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@Greyparrot
I think there are certainly similarities. Trump marginalizes those perceived as out-groups, appeals to the underlying prejudices of the nation, seems to have an affinity for totalitarianism, and views himself as something *just* short of a god.
Other than that...the two are nothing alike. ;-)
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@ethang5
When did the Washington Post become a constitutional authority?
It hardly takes a constitutional authority to recognize religion walking with government policies violates the establishment clause. Plus, I'm just making sure we're referring to the same events.
Neither is it a governmental or atheistic right
Agreed. However, assuming the board did discriminate against Phillips (I haven't heard exactly what was said), it does not wash away his discrimination of homosexuals. He is in court again, so let us hope he is appropriately called to the carpet this time.
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@ethang5
Session defending immigration policies with religion:
And being an anti-theist is not an excuse to violate the religious rights of citizens.
Discrimination is not a religious right.
Also, I've been referring to Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission. I'm not familiar with a case from California.
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@ethang5
If he were logical, I would have no problem with it.
The reality is religious books are not needed to justify actions of a secular government. If they hold value to you, then fine, but don;t use them to speak for other people who may or may not share your religious views and recognize them as any sort of a justification.
That's the problem. Being religious is not an excuse to break the law. ...And now we have a task force to to crack down on those evil non-Christians who don't want to be subject to religious privilege and/or law. That'll fix 'em!Exactly, because we aren't talking about the actions of the religious.
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@ethang5
So, if Achmed Sessions were to use the Qu'ran to justify actions of the US government, you'd be fine with that? This is not a matter of anti-theism, E.This is your personal opinion. Last I checked, the constitution was not interpreted using your personal opinion. Sessions has a whole team of lawyers, and did not create the task force in secret. Your anti-thrism is confusing you.
It's funny how things are always so clear to the befuddled. Do you not remember the recent case of the cake maker and what the supreme court said about his religious rights being violated by government anti-religious bias?
I'm familiar with the case. The decision of the court was narrow and did not rule on the actions of the baker...and he is being sued again for the same stuff (because it's still illegal).
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@ethang5
You don't care abut religious freedom.
I don't care about your religious beliefs - they have no value to me. I do care about your right to have religious beliefs - this has tremendous value to everyone regardless of where they fall on the belief spectrum.
But my representatives, whom I voted for to create such bodies, would be surprised you were able to come to such a inane conclusion.
Hmmmm, just so you know, this would be more than just yourself looking out for your religious freedom But...whatever, I'm ok with that. The thing is: Sessions is telling us he has created this crack force to keep our religious freedom safe, but he is also the same guy injecting his religious views into government business. Clearly, he doesn't understand religious freedom! As Casten suggested (and you agreed,) if he had been of a religion other than Christianity saying and doing these things, there would be outrage. It's a double standard.
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@ethang5
As an American Christian, I know the only one guarding my religious freedom is me.
You have no need of a religious freedom task force? If so, we agree.
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You've spelled out exactly my concerns. It is concerning more people dont see this as a problem and recognize it as a potential attack on religious freedom.
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Take it however you like.
I do not need your permission, but, thanks all the same!
It's obvious your fantasy life is more real to you than reality.
Speaking of fantasy, I made no comment on the conversation between you and Castin.
I think we've gone off the rails completely here, so until were back on track I see no reason to continue, Ethan.
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@ethang5
So, the OP was accidently placed in the religion forum? ;-)
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