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@Greyparrot
I think there are certainly similarities. Trump marginalizes those perceived as out-groups, appeals to the underlying prejudices of the nation, seems to have an affinity for totalitarianism, and views himself as something *just* short of a god.
Other than that...the two are nothing alike. ;-)
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@ethang5
When did the Washington Post become a constitutional authority?
It hardly takes a constitutional authority to recognize religion walking with government policies violates the establishment clause. Plus, I'm just making sure we're referring to the same events.
Neither is it a governmental or atheistic right
Agreed. However, assuming the board did discriminate against Phillips (I haven't heard exactly what was said), it does not wash away his discrimination of homosexuals. He is in court again, so let us hope he is appropriately called to the carpet this time.
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@ethang5
Session defending immigration policies with religion:
And being an anti-theist is not an excuse to violate the religious rights of citizens.
Discrimination is not a religious right.
Also, I've been referring to Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission. I'm not familiar with a case from California.
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@ethang5
If he were logical, I would have no problem with it.
The reality is religious books are not needed to justify actions of a secular government. If they hold value to you, then fine, but don;t use them to speak for other people who may or may not share your religious views and recognize them as any sort of a justification.
That's the problem. Being religious is not an excuse to break the law. ...And now we have a task force to to crack down on those evil non-Christians who don't want to be subject to religious privilege and/or law. That'll fix 'em!Exactly, because we aren't talking about the actions of the religious.
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@ethang5
So, if Achmed Sessions were to use the Qu'ran to justify actions of the US government, you'd be fine with that? This is not a matter of anti-theism, E.This is your personal opinion. Last I checked, the constitution was not interpreted using your personal opinion. Sessions has a whole team of lawyers, and did not create the task force in secret. Your anti-thrism is confusing you.
It's funny how things are always so clear to the befuddled. Do you not remember the recent case of the cake maker and what the supreme court said about his religious rights being violated by government anti-religious bias?
I'm familiar with the case. The decision of the court was narrow and did not rule on the actions of the baker...and he is being sued again for the same stuff (because it's still illegal).
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@ethang5
You don't care abut religious freedom.
I don't care about your religious beliefs - they have no value to me. I do care about your right to have religious beliefs - this has tremendous value to everyone regardless of where they fall on the belief spectrum.
But my representatives, whom I voted for to create such bodies, would be surprised you were able to come to such a inane conclusion.
Hmmmm, just so you know, this would be more than just yourself looking out for your religious freedom But...whatever, I'm ok with that. The thing is: Sessions is telling us he has created this crack force to keep our religious freedom safe, but he is also the same guy injecting his religious views into government business. Clearly, he doesn't understand religious freedom! As Casten suggested (and you agreed,) if he had been of a religion other than Christianity saying and doing these things, there would be outrage. It's a double standard.
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@ethang5
As an American Christian, I know the only one guarding my religious freedom is me.
You have no need of a religious freedom task force? If so, we agree.
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You've spelled out exactly my concerns. It is concerning more people dont see this as a problem and recognize it as a potential attack on religious freedom.
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Take it however you like.
I do not need your permission, but, thanks all the same!
It's obvious your fantasy life is more real to you than reality.
Speaking of fantasy, I made no comment on the conversation between you and Castin.
I think we've gone off the rails completely here, so until were back on track I see no reason to continue, Ethan.
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@ethang5
So, the OP was accidently placed in the religion forum? ;-)
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@ethang5
Well, I'm not a liberal and this position isn't exclusive to progressives. Did you have anything meaningful to add to this topic?This is one of the nice things liberals say that mean nothing to what they do. What I said was relevant to what you said.
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@ethang5
We know what liberals say, we know what liberals do, and we see the discrepancy.
Please keep your comments relevant to the OP.
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@vagabond
Did I just see an amputee enter stage left? Or was I mistaken.
It is very difficult for some to admit error...especially when others are so gleefully anticipating it.
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@ethang5
Let's say human cultures do need god stories, what would be the significance of that?Your atheist need to think that every theistic argument is one for the existence of god not withstanding, this argument aims only to show that human cultures need god stories.
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@ethang5
As long as the religion is not Christianity. [...] Was the task force to defend Islamic freedom, you would be all for it.
A religion (any religion) being favored by the government eventually diminishes religious freedom for everyone.
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@ethang5
Many African cultures, and Eskimo cultures did not develop monsters.
This is not specific or substantiated.
Even if I were to grant you the Piraha, one culture out of all that have existed would not bother my claim.
Actually, this would be a major concession given your claim was in regards to every culture. Additionally, even if you modified the claim to "most cultures have come up with a god narrative" the conclusion "humanity needs a god narrative" would not be a valid conclusion. There would be a mismatch between some in the premise and an implicit all in the conclusion.
[...] we know the story of a ressurection of a god man is not native to the Japanese.
Do we know what peoples are responsible for a resurrected god-man story? This is my point: we don't know where the "mishmash" begins. So, the qualification of "original stories" is meaningless.
Well, it's not some humans, it every culture.
So you've said. The substantiation has been not been received as yet.
This is not an argument for god. [...]
Ethang in another post in this thread:
We have god stories because there is a god. There is no intrinsic human need for nonexistent things. If the human desire for god is genetic, then something in the environment caused that desire to develop. This is a fact of evolution.
This is obviously an argument for the existence of god.
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@ethang5
Could you give examples. I am not aware any exist.Many cultures do not have monster stories.
Yes, monsters and gods aren't the only possibilities, which is part of the reason why it is so significant that everyone chose god.
Again, and I realize this is a point you dispute (through assertion), but "everyone" did not choose god. eg. Piraha Additionally, there are modern cultures in which god stories have little or no place. So, all cultures 'coming up with god stories' is wonky and not a stable foundation for the conclusion.
I know you would like to only consider original god stories, but you nor I know where the "original god story" ends and the mishmash begins. I'm not sure we even know where the original god stories begin! So, there will be no quarter given for 'original god stories' as opposed to god stories in general.
In addition to these stumbling blocks, every culture shares things we know to be harmful or detrimental. Rape, hatred, ignorance,... etc. All cultures sharing something does not make that thing desirable.
Tl;dr?
Some humans creating god stories does not equate to a need for god much less the actual existence of a god. There are much better arguments for god.
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@ethang5
Are monster stories universal to every culture across all time? No. Only the god story is that way.God stories are universal, they are universal because cultures see the pattern in nature. There is the pattern in nature because there is actually a god.
Monster stories are universal in the same way as god stories. There might be noises to suggest something dangerous is moving in the dark, but to extrapolate creatures never before seen is fear induced imaginings. I think god stories are very similar except fear AND awe of the world fuel the pattern solutions.
Furthermore, monsters and gods are not the only possibilities. It could be there is something natural that fits the patterns or that the pattern itself is imagined.
Being materialists, they [atheists] can conceive of no other answers.
Conceiving of an answer isnt the problem. I can conceive of answers all day long. Its the lack of justification for those answers that makes them worthless...and so it goes with god stories.
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@ethang5
God stories preceded natural catastrophes. And the exist where the weather is always serene and kind.No other phenomena qualifies. We have god stories because there is a god.
Do we have monster stories because there are actually cyclops, dragons, or wolf men? I imagine this is where the vagueness of the terms might (dubiously) be exploited. "Monster" can apply to a broad range of possible things... some imagined and some real. The term "god" is no different and can refer to things imagined or real. The fact that there are stories does not validate imagined gods...and for that matter, real things called "god" doesn't either. Validation comes with (precise definitions and) evidence.
There is no intrinsic human need for nonexistent things. If the human desire for god is genetic, then something in the environment caused that desire to develop. This is a fact of evolution.
Stories of god does not suggest a human desire for god as much as a human desire for answers. I refer you back to my original post.
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"The task force will help the department fully implement our religious liberty guidance by ensuring that all Justice Department components are upholding that guidance in the cases they bring and defend, the arguments they make in court, the policies and regulations they adopt and how we conduct our operations," Sessions said. "That includes making sure that our employees know their duties to accommodate people of faith."Sessions cited "a dangerous movement" aimed toward stripping away the First Amendment right to freedom of religion as a basis for forming the new task force."A dangerous movement, undetected by many, is now challenging and eroding our great tradition of religious freedom," Sessions said in his speech. "There can be no doubt. This is no little matter. It must be confronted and defeated."
I am a strong advocate for religious freedom, but I can't help but hear "religious privilege" when I hear the words in this context.
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@Smithereens
That seems a bit extreme, but I think it is safe to safe many people who would oppose animal testing don't understand the necessity of it.
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@ethang5
If you still think you answered me, then thanks for answering.
You're welcome.
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@secularmerlin
I do not believe in gods because the evidence to the contrary is weak or non-existent. I reject the existence of the Abrahamic god(s) because evidence argues against.
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@keithprosser
Sorry, Keith. I'm still figuring this site out!
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@ethang5
As I said before, I don't accept there is a god shaped hole in our head or hearts. An explanation with all powerful being is probably one of the easiest explanations with which to quell our fear and/or satiate our awe. Our desire to have AN answer sometimes outweighs our desire to know we have THE answer.
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@keithprosser
I'll happily drop my view on the Pirahã when evidence to the contrary is known to me.
That being said, I have no problem accepting 'goddidit' is a common explanation regarding magnificent or frightening aspects of nature, but I dont accept that means we 'have a god shaped hole' in our head or hearts.
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@EtrnlVw
I dont claim to know, E. My point is just because we think something LOOKS designed doesnt mean it actually IS designed.
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@ethang5
Not every culture has come up with a god story.
"Pirahã does not have any concepts of a supreme entity or God"
So, obviously, humans don't need a god narrative.
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@janesix
The appearance of design is not the same thing as design.
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