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@Tarik
My mistake...it's not distraction you suffer from...its dishonesty. Your "objective" standard doesn't seem to be in effect friend.
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@Tarik
It seems you are easily distracted. 😂
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"I can perfectly imagine my back yard" might be a fact,It either is or it isn’t.
I assure you, it is not a fact (I can't perfectly imagine my back yard), but that is irrelevant to the point: Something dependent on a mind is not objective.
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@Ramshutu
The best way to think about objective vs subjective - is the difference between how bright the sun is, vs whether the sun is very bright.The first you only have to agree on a standard of measurement so that you’re both talking about the same things: visible light per square cm or meter - the quantity measured can’t be disputed.The latter relies on an arbitrary standard that can’t be agreed without taking someone word for it.A blind person can agree on how bright the sun is - but not whether the sun is “very bright” unless they simply agree with out basis someone else’s opinion on what constitutes very bright.
Good analogy.
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@Tarik
are facts objective?
Depending on what definitiin you are use for objective and what this fact is regarding, facts can be objective.
"There is grass in my backyard" is an objective fact. My feelings and mind have no necessary role in this fact, and anyone can verify without my input.
"I can perfectly imagine my back yard" might be a fact, but it is not objective. My mind necessarily plays a role, and verification (if possible) requires interaction with me.
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@Tarik
Once you add proof into the equation that’s when something is objective so if theirs objective proof that you should have a goal (heaven) that proof overrules any subjectivity.
Proof of what? God? Heaven? There is no 'proof' for these things - only claims. Besides, even if you were able to provide proof of, say, God as the origin of the proposed standard of love, it is still dependent on a mind and still subjective.
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@Tarik
Not anything you haven’t said before
Agreed, but what I have already said is the explanation you asked for.
so what your just going to ignore my rebuttal?
Your rebuttal makes no sense. Love and desire (what god wants) would be subjective.
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@Tarik
Okay. You're disagreeing with the definition you provided. 😉No, I just expanded on it for clarityIncoherent =/= clarityAre you going to explain yourself or not?
Sure! The definition you provided for objective does match the standards you're advocating, my friend. Eg. Love and desire are necessarily subjective. They cannot exist without a mind, and, as such, they are not objective.
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@Tarik
Okay. You're disagreeing with the definition you provided. 😉No, I just expanded on it for clarity
Incoherent =/= clarity.
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@Shila
SkepticalOne: Okay. You're disagreeing with the definition you provided. 😉How is that Okay?
It's not, but my interlocutor has established he is comfortable with a self-refuting position. No further debate is necessary.
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@Tarik
Well I disagree, you see how easy that was 😉
Okay. You're disagreeing with the definition you provided. 😉
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Unless, of course, the other tribe has 1000's of warriorsI don't think anybody will dispute that more than one type of advantage can exist, and that some advantages are better than others
I'm not convinced indifference to survival is an evolutionary advantage.
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@Ehyeh
I've already explained, not all atheists.
Of course, of course. Let me clarify: not all posters claiming to narrowly direct criticism at subsets of atheists question reasoning any and all atheists might subscribe to.
Better?
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@Tarik
They are if theirs an objective presence supporting them.
*There's*
Of the two definitions provided, love and desire qualify as objective exactly zero times. You're 0 for 2, my friend.
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@TWS1405
This.This... this, what?
It simply means, "I agree". I too am not against the concept of gods in general. To be honest, I'm sick to death of being lumped in with a minority of atheists which claim there are absolutely no gods.
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@PREZ-HILTON
If a group has 30 selfless individuals unafraid of death and willing to die for their God, they have an advantage over tribes in warfare who do fear death
Unless, of course, the other tribe has 1000's of warriors.
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@Ehyeh
@TWS1405
Most atheists are directly against the concept of god.I am an atheist, by definition, but I am not "directly against the (concept) of god."
This.
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@Tarik
Which conflicts with the definition “(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.”
Even if we utilize your definition, love and wants are personal feelings and not objective. Ie. Philosophically or scientifically, your standard is not objective.
@Double_R has provided the only objective standard I've seen in this discussion: well-being.
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@Shila
How love objectifies parts of a person we are attracted to in expressions like:I love your hair, I love your body, I love your booty etc. etc.
Objective and objectify are not synonymous.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Wow. I'm surprised there's been no pushback.
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@Tarik
How is love an objective standard?Because the God I believe in wants us to love.
Objective means 'not dependent on mind'. Love and wants are necessarily mind dependent.
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@Shila
Love objectifies the parts of a person that we are attracted to.
No. That's not what is meant by objective.
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@3RU7AL
don't you have to have a "Y" chromosome in order to be considered "male" ?
No.
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@Tarik
And what is your objective moral standard?Love
How is love an objective standard?
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@Tradesecret
How do you know the Bible got it right?Great question. Perhaps it got it wrong. But at least it is consistent and makes sense to me.One reason I believe (not the only one) in God is because the alternative is simply irrational.[...] Well, what is the alternative? That God created everything - but then left us to muddle on our own.
Which alternative is that? There are many definitions for god. And, I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning here - you accept the Bible because it is internally consistent (not necessarily an indication of truth) and not accepting it is irrational (I disagree - explained in more detail below).
It is totally unreasonable and implausible that everything that exists in all of its myriads of ways simple came from nowhere and without purpose.
Why limit the options to the Biblical God or 'we came from nowhere'? The former is one supernatural option among thousands, and the latter does not accurately characterize the prevailing scientific theories as I understand them. Plus, there is at least one more option: "I don't know". Why do we have to settle on unfalsifiable or incomplete?
I mean, why should I accept the Bible as authoritative regarding god?Another good question. I think in the first place - that you are an intelligent person - that is a good reason to accept it.
Thanks for the compliment, but my intelliengence is not in any way indicative of the truth of Biblical claims.
Secondly, you can't beat something with nothing.
As pointed out above, the alternative is not necessarily 'nothing'.
Thirdly, it will change your life. And respectfully, I think that is what you are hoping some one can provide you with.
There are many things which might change a life (for better or worse), but this does nothing to bolster the validity, truthfulness, or in this case, the authoritativeness of these things.
At the end of the day though, it's not just about being smart enough to understand the gospel, or wise enough to make a good decision, it's about regeneration.
It is not clear to me what you mean.
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@Shila
You just said you are skeptical of all claims. That means you prejudge everyone until they convince you.
What I actually said:
I am skeptical of all claims which cannot be substantiated through reason or evidence.
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@Shila
Your title defines you as the SkepticalOne. You mock everyone by being Skeptical of what anyone says.
My username has to do with skepticism, not cynicism. I am skeptical of all claims which cannot be substantiated through reason or evidence. If someone considers this mocking, that's not my problem.
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@Shila
Please don't involve me in your mocking of other users.
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@Shila
Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophesies in the Bible.
Harry Potter fulfills the prophecy of the Harry Potter series. All you're saying is that the Bible is internally consistent.
I'm more interested in what's actually true in the real world rather than internal consistency.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you people don't want me to judge you by what you say then don't say it.
Funny, I'm being judged by words I haven't said and being told to watch my words. The absurdity...
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@Polytheist-Witch
You're the ones that come across so high and mighty and you guys are perfect about everything, meanwhile your spouting off about race and trans people and women.
You obviously see what you want to see and have admitted your mind can not be changed. There is no reason for me to engage with you any longer. May you have the day you deserve.
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@Tarik
How do you know it’s flexible in regards to suicide?
How do you know its not? As already mentioned, it's explicit meaning isn't taken as an absolute by the deity or its followers within the Bible itself.
My religious position? Aren’t you the one that said
The context of that comment was in regards to your dismissal of my earlier criticism.
I'd be happy to hear your viewsWell I guess theirs nothing to hear since you seem to know me better than myself.
I am happy to hear your views, but I won't be disengaging skepticism, critical thinking, or allow distraction from points you've failed to address in the process. This thread is about arguments for god and in that context I consider your responses.
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@Shila
That is why the Bible is important. It is a record of what other eyewitnesses saw and heard during their generation. The Bible serves as a book on the history of the Jewish people.
Full disclosure: I'm not convinced the Bible represents eye-witness or literal accounts...at least not completely. Some of the 'history' didn't actually happen or can't be verified. Eg. Global flood, the Exodus, The dead rising as Jesus died, etc. Some of the purported eye-witness accounts are merely attributions added to anonymous Gospels. I think it is fair to say, the Bible represents a mixture of history and myth.
The Bible was not written so future generation could criticize the Jews.
The Bible was written over thousands of years by many many writers. Each probably had a different set of motivations. I would agree none probably intended to provide room for criticism, but claiming to speak for a perfect deity in an imperfect way provides ample room for it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
About atheist? Absolutely nothing will. You guys are who you are your posts aren't going to change, no one's going to change my mind about what you people think.
Thanks for clarifying your position and revealing your own blatant hypocrisy and bigotry.
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@Polytheist-Witch
What would it take for you to change your mind?
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm glad people like you don't believe. We've got enough bigots and racist and misogynist running around in the religions themselves, we certainly don't need atheists coming over and doing it.
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'The witches have a problem with you applying skepticism and critical thinking to a religious belief. I guess they would prefer no criticism whatsoever, but let's be honest they're already angry you don't believe so they are really going to argue about anything. I guess they think that substantiating knowledge claims with evidence or reason is absurd. Or better yet you could define god in the way they do: bald assertion.'
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@Conservallectual
In an atheist worldview,
No such thing. Atheism isn't an epistemology, a moral framework, an ontology, a methodology, etc. Atheists' outlook on life can be shaped by any number of things, but it ain't their answer to 'Do you believe in gods'.
That's where the OP goes wrong.
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@Tradesecret
So you accept this definition of god because the Bible says so? How do you know the Bible got it right? I mean, why should I accept the Bible as authoritative regarding god?
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@Tarik
Suicide isn't explicitly prohibited in the Bible.Thou shall not kill.
And yet the god of the Bible commands or condones the Israelites to kill. Plus, killing is absolutely required for sacrifices and the crucifixion of Jesus.
Besides this commandment being rather flexible, there is no concrete indication suicide is disallowed by it. I don't know about you, but it seems an onminiscient being would have made it clear if he/she had an issue with suicide.
a religion built on the BibleHow can a religion be built on a book when people and their beliefs existed long before books ever did.
Sloppy wording on my part. What I mean to say is the Bible is foundational to Christianity. No one alive today could have been eye-witness to the life/death of Jesus or the destruction of the temple. No one alive during the life of Jesus could have been witness to the Exodus, the battle of Jericho, or the seige of Jerusalem.
The point being, ignorance of your holy book isn't a defense to legitimate criticism of your religious position.
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@Tarik
You didn’t address my “suicide is a sin”
Suicide isn't explicitly prohibited in the Bible.
Well first of all I’m no Bible expert
I don't expect you to be an expert, but I do think it is reasonable to expect a Christian to know their holy book. I mean, if I knew of a book written by the creator of the universe, I'd think reading and understanding it would be more important than most everything else.
Slavery is condoned: Exodus 21; there is no condemnation of slavery in the Bible.
Yahweh's chosen people: Deut. 14:2 (there are many, many verses reiterating this).
so you doubling down on scripture isn’t refuting anything because your argument is one sided
Pointing out the Bible argues against the position of a person subscribing to a religion built on the Bible is a refutation of that position. Ignorance provides no defense.
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@Tarik
And you need to work on your observation of facts, fact of the matter is you don’t know most Christians to make bold claims about them.
I'd be happy to hear your views, but you appealed to other Christians. My response addressed that appeal and the basis of Biblical morality: obedience (not survival). Survival (and well-being) is a humanistic standard and not something explicitly found in the Bible.
I wasn’t speaking on behalf of me, and not all Christians accept The Bible as the “Word of God”.
My question was directed to you. If you accept the Bible as the inspired word of God then how do you use the Bible to justify fairness and equality when inequality and unfairness are condoned and endorsed by the main character?
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@Tarik
It is a reach to say survival is justified by your particular god.Not as much as it is a reach to call our wars holy
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said, "Most all Christians would accept dying in a holy war is to the glory of God".
I don’t need to concede anything because not once have I argued in favor of The Bible.
How is it you're a Christian that rejects the 'Word of God'?
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@Shila
Justification by faith is provided in the Bible.
Justification of fairness and equality are not justified by the Bible as evidenced by codified slavery and a 'chosen people'.
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@Tarik
God doesn't provide a justification for survival anyway.There are some that believe suicide is a sin.
Most all would Christians would accept dying in a holy war is to the glory of God. It is a reach to say survival is justified by your particular god. Obedience seems to be a much higher priority.
How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?By believing in a God that’s fair and equal.According to your holy book, your god condoned slavery and has/had a chosen people. You have a twisted notion of fair and equal. Again, your particular deity does not justify fair and equal.The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, nonetheless there are some people that would classify themself as religious but don’t believe in the God depicted in The Bible.
No interpretation is required to see fair and equal are not justified by the basis of your beliefs. I can submit the verses if you dispute this.
You'll need to provide a different basis for your beliefs or concede no justification can be provided from the Bible.
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@3RU7AL
except that the mother has the ability to "opt out" and the father apparently does not
Every father ever has 'opted out' of being pregnant.
we agree the father does NOT have a choice
*Does not have a choice to opt in or out....
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@Bones
If it is the case that women can willingly engage in sex and subsequently abort the fetus because "her body is her choice", does it then follow that a male can impregnate a female and subsequently not pay child support because "his body his choice"? It is
No, it doesn't follow. A man's bodily integrity isn't in question during pregnancy.
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@Tarik
How do you justify the value of survival without God?
How many times do you plan to move the goalposts? God doesn't provide a justification for survival anyway. People literally die in the name of gods. You're asking for something your own view does not justify.
How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?By believing in a God that’s fair and equal.
According to your holy book, your god condoned slavery and has/had a chosen people. You have a twisted notion of fair and equal. Again, your particular deity does not justify fair and equal.
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@Ehyeh
I find it a silly semantic game to say "atheism simply means lack of belief" that's literally what agnostic means too. So what is the dividing factor?
Agnostic means without knowledge. Atheistic means without belief.
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@Tarik
How do you justify the value of said “Groups” without God?
I take it you accept my last justification. Kicking the can down the road, eh? Groups are beneficial to individual survival (among other things).
My turn: How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?
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