Total posts: 2,186
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@Greyparrot
-->@TWS1405_2That’s nuts. white people account for the majority of child molesting in this country as they do for serial killers and white collar crime.Eh debatable, Mexican cartels might have an edge with the rape trees.
Why did you tag me in this?
I didn't say those things...
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Well, you're proving to be a supporter of child mutilation and the sexualization of children. Makes you a pedo. Prove me wrong.
Let the childish insults begin...
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@Mps1213
“Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd.” You’re correct, which is why there is a conversion factor.LD 50 measurements:
Still doesn't mean shit unless you factor in the realities of excited delirium, covid-19 and the speedball altogether.
Your information surrounding the lethal dose of fentanyl is simply false. As you have said just because someone with a PhD says (sic) a lie doesn’t make it not a lie. Of course (sic) a lethal dose can be low, I’ve already explained to you how that can occur, but you are still not using the proper measurements of lethal dosages for drugs.
Wow. Pretty arrogant and mighty self-righteous of you to categorically state that an experienced drug addiction organization like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations are all wrong...according to you. ROTFLMAO!!!!!! You have not discredited either of them, which in turn means you have not discredited what I said regarding the consistently listed/known 2mg amount (or less) of fentanyl being fatal.
Sure (sic) I can’t prove he had a tolerance to fentanyl, but Peope (sic) have said he liked the drug.
Wow, you can admit when you're wrong. Amazing!
What "Peope"? Prove it.
Regardless, you can’t prove fentanyl was active in his system...
Already did, you ignored/denied it.
I have also proven that post mortem (sic) drug concentrations don’t show you anything valuable, you refuse to engage with that fact.
Lie. Denialism?
Repeating what I wrote above in #22:
- "Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely."
Word salad doesn’t win arguments.
Psychological projection.
I have shown you exactly why your measurements for lethal dosages are inaccurate and useless in this case.
Delusions of grandeur.
You were literally arguing with me, when I was making a joke to another user and called it irrelevant, yeah dumb ass it was because I wasn’t talking to you, you dork.
Psychological projection.
You said my lethal dose measurements were subjective… that is completely false it is based off of how lethal doses are ascertained and calculated, you can’t comprehend the most basic aspect of pharmacology, i can’t help you there.
Yeah, I did. The word of organizations like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations are FAR MORE credible than your inept and arrogant pseudo know-it-all take on the matter is concerned.
Also i (sic) feel like you think I’m saying the knee was the only aspect in his death, sure drugs could’ve been an aspect, if you can prove they were active in his system, sure Covid was a factor, it wasn’t just the knee. But you are acting like the knee had nothing to do with it, that is where we disagree.
The knee does have absolutely nothing to do with it. The same as the alleged chokehold on Eric Gardner had nothing to do with his death. It had everything to do with the subject's health status and in the case of Floyd, what drugs were present in his system, as well as excited delirium in both cases.
I also disagree with the way you talk about lethal dosages.
I do not care. No one cares. Because you're wrong on this point. Disproven by organizations like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations for that matter.
I also have a problem with you refusing to engage with the issues post mortem (sic) concentration measurements, because it doesn’t support your argument.
Blind, deaf and dumb? I addressed this in my response and again above herein.
You say I’m projecting when I say you have no knowledge, but you are showing me that you don’t. You can use all of the fancy vocabulary you’d like, you’re still wrong.
No, I say you are exhibiting psychological projection under certain circumstances that are clear as day...not that I have no knowledge.
You're the who is wrong. As such, it makes you the posterchild for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
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@Mps1213
But the claim he made about the 2mg lethal dose is also wrong.
No, it's not and I proved you wrong in the above response.
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@oromagi
@oromagiAre you daft?
- ad hom
No, that's a question.
The subject of this debate has nothing to do with just fentanyl being the cause of death, but everything to do with the “speed ball” mixed drug cocktail he took. Reading comprehension matters.
- Agreed. You have failed to comprehend the findings of every single medical expert who looked at Floyd's toxicology- the amount and interaction of drugs in Floyd's system did not kill him, was a tiny fraction of typically lethal doses. The norfentanyl conversion ratio in Floyd's system proves that Floyd was long past high.
And yet it goes beyond that with the other very real and complicated health factors Floyd was afflicted with that contribued directly to his death: heart disease, hypertension, Covid-19, excited delirium, AND speedballing.
PS. He consumed the speed ball right there in the car just before police made contact.
- No testimony supports that claim. You are just making up lies.
It's on the body cam video, which was introduced at trial. Floyd can be heard saying he was having trouble breathing as the initial officer approached his car on the driver's side.
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Melcharaz,
One's health status has to be a direct factor of consideration in these cases. They must; because when someone is in poor health even a really good scare (like a prank) can have the very potential to cause someone to experience a heart attack.
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@Mps1213
Ok (sic) you have a basic misunderstanding of what the coroner is saying when they say no life threatening (sic) injuries. They are basically saying, he didn’t have a broken neck, didn’t have a collapsed wind pipe, (sic) etc. that doesn’t mean that having your air way inhibited, can’t kill you without causing physical injury. That’s not how it works.
No, it is to you who is exhibiting a clear misunderstanding of what the coroner said; “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified" means exactly what is being said. There is nothing encrypted or vague about it; and no one reading this thread needs you to spell out the obvious ("he didn't have a broken neck, didn't have a collapsed wind pipe, (sic) etc." It also means no trauma to the windpipe or larynx (e.g. bruising, tearing) - i.e., "there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen." And that is exactly how that works!
Have you ever seen someone get choked unconscious in MMA? If they would’ve held onto that choke, that person would’ve died, and they wouldn’t have had any life threatening injuries. They just would have been chocked to death.
Irrelevant false equivalency fallacy.
Which is why your idea that the original autopsy refutes itself is incorrect.
I never said "the original autopsy" in and of itself, only these statements were:
- “As was released earlier by the medical examiner’s office, Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.” The medical examiner’s office had also previously deemed the manner of Floyd’s death a “homicide.”
The contradiction is the coroner stating unequivocally that there were "no life-threatening injuries," and yet the official cause of death was a heart attack, and the death was still ruled a "homicide." That's the glaring contradiction.
Also “The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less)” this is a perfect example of you not knowing anything about drugs man. (sic)
Quite the leap there claiming because I stated the lethal dose of fentanyl being 2mg (or less) = me not knowing anything about (any and all) drugs. *FP*
That being said, you are wrong. While sources vary, 2mg is most consistent among them:
"Fentanyl is a very powerful opioid drug that can have fatal consequences if it is taken in very high doses (about 2 milligrams or more) or mixed with other drugs."
"Just 2.5 milligrams of fentanyl can be fatal."
"Fentanyl: Estimated Fatal Dose in Adult: 2mg" (pg. 3)
"The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl is 2 mg. Depending on where the fentanyl comes from (i.e. illicit or prescription), the lethal dose may be lower."
I’m going to break this down very simply for you. The LD50 for fentanyl in rats...
Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd.
So he would’ve had a tolerance.
Unless you were his drug consuming bed buddy, you neither know this for a personal fact or otherwise. Everyone who knew him said he was getting off the sauce (no clarification) and working on turning his life around. For all anyone knows that day could have been the very first time he used that speed ball laced with illicit fentanyl (and who knows what else beyond the meth). As such, he would have zero tolerance. His history of drug use centered around cocaine than meth let alone fentanyl. AND like everyone else, you're forgetting he tested positive for Covid-19; which can cause acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). ARDS can be fatal, and I would wager it certainly would be when compounded by an individual speedballing and having a weak heart suffering from hypertension as well.
Also the amount of drugs in someone blood will increase upon their death, because they likely lost blood during death...
Floyd had no blood loss from any known or reported wound caused by the encounter with law enforcement. So that rules your unfounded theory out.
...and there is no blood circulating to clean out the substance from the system. This is a well recorded and commented thing in toxicology.“Post-mortem changes render the assumptions of clinical pharmacology largely invalid, and make the interpretation of concentrations measured in post-mortem samples difficult or impossible. ”
No shit.
"Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely."
That isn’t something you’re just allowed to ignore, like you did every single time I brought it up when we were arguing in the comment section of another debate.
What other debate? We were not debating anything. You may have been debating with yourself or some imaginary person, but I certainly was not debating you. Especially within a "comment section" of someone else's formal "debate." I was merely baiting you, not even reading your drivel in its entirety. It was more entertaining watching you squirm, especially when @Sir.Lancelot goaded you on, and you took the bait hook line and sinker.
Also (sic) you have absolutely 0 evidence fentanyl and methamphetamine were even active in his system at the time of arrest.
Yeah, I do. It's in the body cam videos.
"George Floyd can be heard admitting on videotape that he took drugs before his fatal arrest..."
Do you really believe it is impossible he was claiming that he was having trouble breathing because he was being pulled over, likely panicking, and had Covid? Have you never experienced panic before? It’s hard to breathe, add Covid to that equation, it’s very hard to breathe. He knew he broke the law and was probably going to get arrested and began to have a panic attack, like anyone else would.
"Thao’s attorney, Robert Paule, asked Tuesday whether Baker was pressured into listing “neck compression” as a factor in his autopsy report. Baker testified that he told prosecutors on the day of Floyd’s autopsy that there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen. Prosecutors put that information in their initial complaint against Chauvin, and listed existing health conditions, police restraint and potential intoxicants as contributing factors."
I don’t understand why you feel the need to bring politics into this discussion. Was every single person on that jury brainwashed or planted there by the left? How likely is that? I don’t care what your Political orientation is, I have no political opinions. So let’s keep this to the pharmacology and science of the situation if you don’t mind.
Politics has everything to do with this case, as it has with every case before it and will after it. Democrats never let a tragedy go to waste. The progressive white guilt leftists abuse it too. It is their anvil use to drive/hammer divisive rhetoric between whites and blacks, and blacks and cops. I mean really, BLM (Burn Loot Murder) was founded upon a lie about Michael Brown, and the subsequent case of Trayvon Martin. Race hustlers thrive on this shit. It makes them money. And Patrice Cullors saw that, knew that, and she sure as shit took advantage of that abuse of her own people.
George Floyd had about 92 pounds of pressure on his neck. That may not kill someone if they are healthy, meaning don’t have COVID and aren’t panicking.
Wow, that is a pretty precise measurement there. How did you come upon that figure? Were you there? Did you speak to Chauvin? After all, only Chauvin knows exactly how hard (or not) he applied his knee to the back of Floyd's neck. Panicking? Ever hear of Excited Delirium?
Take ED and combine that with Covid-19, cardiovascular disease, severe hypertension disease, and speedballing... that's the DIRECT CAUSE of Floyd's death. NOT the infamous knee on the neck.
You are correct that combing amphetamine stimulants and Opioids is a deadly mixture. However (sic) I have asked you for this many times, you have yet to present it. What is your evidence that those two drugs were both active in his system at the time of arrest? You realize you can take meth of Tuesday, and fentanyl on Wednesday and not face those deadly effects of mixing them correct? You can even take them both on the same day.
I refer you to the previously cited video evidence where Floyd admits to eating too many drugs, and having trouble breathing before police even approached the car.
You make a lot of claims with no evidence to support them.
LOL!!! When you see a word or a series of words that are highlighted and underlined in "blue" text, that's a hyperlink to a source that gives "evidence" to back up a given claim.
You say some random “lethal dose” as if that applies to everyone which is patently false.
Strawman fallacy.
And ignore basic toxicology and pharmacological science.
Psychological projection.
You’ve ignored both of those points many times, but are condescending and annoying about me (sic) claiming I know more than you on those two topics, when I clearly do.
Dunning Kruger Effect response.
All of the evidence supports my claim that drugs did not kill George Floyd...
Delusions of grandeur.
...you have no evidence to support your claim that they did.
Asked and give, now in two semi-lengthy posts.
The evidence you cite isn’t even anywhere near factually accurate.
Easy to claim, harder to prove.
Especially your lethal dose nonsense.
And yet the cited sources are far more credible than your mere subjective word on the matter. To wit you have given no evidence to the contrary.
Be condescending all you’d like, ...
Only one here with a history of being a condescending little prick is you, pal.
...you simply don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to toxicology and drugs, and it’s abundantly clear after doing three minutes of google searching.
Another Dunning Kruger Effect response. *FP*
Just because you rolled your eyes doesn’t mean you are correct man. Especially on the pharmacology and toxicology front. You’re going to have a very hard time combatting anything I said when it comes to that.
Non sequitur fallacy.
There are things called blood chokes: these chokes can put someone to sleep, or kill the person if they are held long enough.
False equivalency fallacy to this case.
I’m not speaking of weird sexual tendencies, you do you.However over 9 minutes is too long. Especially if the person has Covid.
Fallacy of irrelevance, or ignoratio elenchi.
Dude, you couldn't effectively argue your way out of a wet paper bag.
I see you made yet another comment before I posted this one. Desperate much? Insecure much? Impatient much? *yawn*
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@oromagi
Are you daft?
The subject of this debate has nothing to do with just fentanyl being the cause of death, but everything to do with the “speed ball” mixed drug cocktail he took.
Reading comprehension matters.
PS. He consumed the speed ball right there in the car just before police made contact.
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@oromagi
That fact check is wrong.
It’s not about just the fentanyl, it’s the drug cocktail in and of itself that killed him. A fact overlooked in this so-called PC fact check cut n paste job you just posted.
And as I said, for political and socially divisive purposes along racial lines (and blue lines), those who testified perjured themselves.
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@RationalMadman
Just because the Dahomey tribe were hypocrites and brutal ones at that, doesn't mean the history of black slavery is not understood by most black people.
Wow. Awesome non sequitur there, RM. 🤦
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@Sir.Lancelot
Thank you.
I couldn’t get past the first sentence without rolling my eyes, “oh here we go” as anticipated. So I put my phone down and played Call of Duty the rest of the night while wifey at Belly Dance class with her teammate.
I’ll get to Mps1213 tomorrow. I’m spent.
Until then…
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@Stephen
Well then everyone at dart ends up pissing in the wind, sooner or later, now don’t they! Seems like an obvious moot point to make.
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@Sir.Lancelot
@Mps1213
@AustinL0926
@Bella3sp
Tagged. You’re it. 😜
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This thread is being created to challenge @Mps1213 (and anyone else likeminded) on the subject of George Floyd’s death, specifically the illicit drugs he consumed prior to the initial contact with police and the excited delirium that followed during his apprehension that lead to his cardiac arrest and respiratory failure. Two common results of an overdose when one is “speedballing.” In other words, when one is taking/consuming a strong stimulant like meth that staves off the effects of depressants like fentanyl and amphetamines, when the stimulant(s) wears off, fatality more often than not occurs (unless medical intervention is immediate upon noticing the symptoms of an overdose). As in the case of Mr. George Floyd. An individual addicted to illicit drugs like fentanyl, amphetamines, morphine, marijuana and methamphetamines.
However, pseudo know-it-alls like Mps1213 believe Floyd did not die from what they would consider as a “recreational drug,” but rather from the neck compression (despite the coroner clearly reporting absolutely “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.” In comments in another formal debate, Mps1213 basically, for a lack of better terms, mouthed off that he knows better than Sir.Lancelot, myself and anyone else on this subject of Floyd’s death who dares say otherwise. So, this forum thread is being created to challenge him on this very subject, and to allow anyone else so interested and inclined to join the debate/discussion, pro or con, may do so. This shall (or rather should/could) provide a learning experience for all involved. So without further adieu…
On May 26, 2020, at 9:25am, just 12 hours after Floyd’s pronounced death, the coroner completed the autopsy of George Floyd.
“As was released earlier by the medical examiner’s office, Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.” The medical examiner’s office had also previously deemed the manner of Floyd’s death a “homicide.”The report describes Floyd as a “46-year-old man who became unresponsive while being restrained by law enforcement officers; he received emergency medical care in the field and subsequently in the Hennepin HealthCare (HHC) Emergency Department, but could not be resuscitated.” https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/
The above quotes are not only poorly written grammatically and contextually, but they are also self-contradictory. Then there is this:
“Critically, the report says Floyd “experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s).”
Having provided those two quotes (and sources) to describe the coroners official findings of the manner in which George Floyd died, what I implore upon anyone and everyone reading this thread is the fact that you each have to look at the data and circumstances OBJECTIVELY, not subjectively driven by emotion or otherwise. Nor any absurd appeals to authority either. The people with letters after their name all perjured themselves on the stand regarding the subject matter being discussed herein.
To clarify my position on the stated manner of death:
“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression”
The wording of this statement, contextually, directly implies that Floyd’s experiencing a heart attack – in the moment (i.e., excited delirium) – complicated the subdued, restrain, and neck compression” executed by law enforcement. When I read this from a law enforcement perspective, this tells me that while all the officers involved, especially Chauvin, were doing exactly what they were trained to do in order to calm Floyd down and subdue him without increasing the use of force continuum…Floyd’s heart attack “complicated” that effort that required EMS to be called vs routine transport to the county jail for booking.
Yet people like Mps1213, BLM (Burn Loot Murder aka Black Lives Matter), and the leftist propaganda machine (MSM) would have everyone believe that Chauvin either broke or compressed his neck so much that it caused damage to his larynx and caused asphyxiation. That couldn’t be further from the truth. As the coroner clearly noted: “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”
Given the fact that there were “no life-threatening injuries” identified during the initial/original unbiased autopsy by the county coroner, that leaves the question: why/how did George Floyd die. Well, the next place to look is the Toxicology report: https://famous-trials.com/george-floyd/2648-george-floyd-the-toxicology-report for the (in your face) obvious answer. He died of a drug overdose brought on by a lethal concoction of fentanyl, methamphetamines, amphetamines, morphine and marijuana. Stimulants vs depressants. A deadly combination either way you slice and dice it. And when you add comorbidities like hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and a positive test for COVID-19…well, death was certain and imminent. See below:
“Underlying Conditions The report says Floyd’s autopsy revealed three “natural diseases:” (1) “arteriosclerotic heart disease,” which it described as “multifocal, severe;” (2) “hypertensive heart disease,” which included a “clinical history of hypertension,” and (3) a left pelvic tumor, which it described as “incidental.” (Incidental tumors are generally benign.) The report elsewhere said that a “cross sections of coronary arteries, though not all ideally oriented, confirm the gross impression of atherosclerotic narrowing.”
Then add into that mix the toxicology findings, broken down and sectioned out here (same place the above quote was taken from): https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/
The obvious fact of the matter is Floyd consumed a fatal dose of fentanyl and meth in what is commonly known as “speedballing.” https://www.training.fadaa.org/Speedballing/Speedballing_PPT.pdf
The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less); Floyd had 11ng/mL in his blood as reported in the toxicology report. But when combined with all the other stimulants and depressants he willingly consumed that day, Floyd was “dead man walking.” Which perfectly explains why he can be heard on body-cam footage upon initial and immediately following contact by police (long before the infamous knee) telling them he was having trouble breathing. Respiratory distress and failure is a common result of mixing potent stimulants with deadly depressants. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-told-police-he-was-struggling-breathe-officer-put-n1218556
The risks of combining fentanyl and meth is no secret. Fentanyl is not a new drug, but it is certainly more dangerous than most others, especially when combined with other drugs like methamphetamines, amphetamines, et al. https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com/methamphetamine-and-fentanyl/
“Deaths related to methamphetamine cut with fentanyl appear to have spiked in recent years; for instance, a 2022 report from the New York State Department of Health noted that overdose deaths involving methamphetamine notably increased in the state (outside of New York City) from 2016 to 2020, but that the majority of those deaths also involved fentanyl. This suggests that “the potent opioid [fentanyl] has actually been driving the increase.”Part of the reason the combination is particularly dangerous is because it combines an opioid (a depressant) with meth (a stimulant). According to the Florida Alcohol & Drug Abuse Association, the combination of an opioid and stimulant, when taken intentionally, is sometimes called “speed-balling.”The opposing effects of the two types of substances can mask each other, making overdose more likely. For instance, in some cases of overdose, the stimulant’s effects may wear off, and respiratory failure can result—particularly from an opioid as strong as fentanyl.”
Taking into consideration the multitude of deaths, reported overdoses, and the scientific evidence that explains the ever increasing uptick in deaths related to fentanyl overdoses when mixed (laced) with other illicit drugs, and the fact that the coroner made it perfectly clear in his report that there was absolutely no life threatening injuries to Floyd’s body (e.g. his neck, specifically), the ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION is that he died from an overdose complicated by excited delirium during his arrest. That’s all on him and has no bearing on the officers and the manner in which they conducted their arrest per their own departments training guidelines and S.O.P.
The ONLY reason the officers were ostracized and Chauvin was tried is it was yet another (among many) distractions the left and Democrats took advantage of (never let a tragedy go to waste) in further dividing this country and gaining or solidifying current democratic voters to continue voting for the Democratic Party. Officer Chauvin is innocent and he is nothing short of being a political prisoner in his win country for which he swore an oath to defend, and that country turned its back on him all in the name of divisive political rhetoric on faux racism and police brutality claims.
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@Stephen
Which wasn't so obvious.And if your links are not enough to drive home the obvious point to RM, then it should be obvious to anyone that you "sherlock" are pissing in the wind.
How is proving RM wrong, “pissing In the wind?” If you’re trying to say he is stubborn, again, that’s obvious.
You are more than welcome although you appear to have missed my point.
You don’t need to make that point to me as I already knew that fact.
It’s RMs fault for not checking on the cited sources for their veracity. Not mine.
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@Mps1213
and I have not said any of that lol. Both of y’all are idiots.
Pretty ignorant to make such a claim when obtaining the receipts are so easy…starting with the above name calling.
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@RationalMadman
I don't really care what you're saying…
You made that abundantly clear when you ignored everything factually accurate that I posted in response to your emotively driven excitement for this historically inaccurate PC/WOKE movie.
it was a phenomenal movie to me. You are correct it lies and implies the Dahomey were more benevolent than they actually were.
Thank you. I think that is the first time you actually admitted someone other than yourself put forth a factually accurate response to one of your emphatically preferred positions.
I am sure it was a phenomenal movie to you, but in your OP you came off as if you actually believed what the movie portrayed as far as history goes. A history so many people the world over (especially black Americans) are so ignorant of it’s pathetic. It’s precisely why I enjoy watching YouTube videos of reactions by regular black folk when they watch narrated videos by Thomas Sowell (among others) about the real historical facts of slavery, the Atlantic Slave trade, and Africa’s direct participation in it. The glow of the educated and enlightened is a pleasure to watch. Even better are the same educated and enlightened blacks giving their movie review of such a movie as The Woman King (which I provided a link to in my initial response to you).
The truth is a beautiful thing. It will set you free.
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@Stephen
Even Viola finally admitted it was fictionalized.Only after the film was exposed as historically inaccurate.
Thank you, Captain Obvious (derp…no shit Sherlock).
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@YouFound_Lxam
By its medically accurate term…zygote.By its medically accurate term…fetus.Yes of course.But what are they?
They are precisely as identified.
A zygote = a zygote
A fetus = a fetus
Does someone need to draw you a picture before you grasp this simple fact?
It's not part of the woman's body, so it's not the woman's body.
Location, location, location. If it is within her, it is of her.
And if it isn't part of the woman's body, then logically it has to be another living organism.
Cancer is another living organism, yet it is still within her and a part of her…therefore it is part of the woman’s body.
And if it's living then that means it has the potential to grow.
Wrong. Every cell within the human organism meets the basic biological criteria for life. Cellular Life does not always =/= potential for growth.
And with that potential to grow comes out a human.
A cancer cell has potential for growth, and more often than not does grow; even benign tumors grow…doesn’t make either tumor [a] human being, now does it.
So, by definition a fetus or zygote is a human.
Maybe by your uneducated subjective definition, but not the real world fact based and factually accurate definition(s). No. It is not [a] human “being.”
Yes it is. If it is within her, attached to her, feeding off her…it is “biologically” a part of her body."It is simply untrue that the unborn child is merely “part of the mother’s body.” In addition to being genetically distinct from the time of conception, the unborn possesses separate circulatory, nervous, and endocrine systems."No, it biologically isn't.In the woman's body, not a part of it.
Cherry picking sources you “think” supports your position =/= proof of your uneducated subjective opinions here.
Again…location, location, location. If it is within her body, it is of her body. Period. Fact. Period.
I do not care about the distinct and separate DNA argument. It doesn’t hold water.
Even the separate living bacterial organisms in our guts are living and yet they are still within our bodies, making them a part of our bodies.
Everything within a human organism is a part of that human organism until it is extracted or comes out by some other means.
Capability (potentiality) =/= Actuality. Never has. Never willBut:Potentiality = Possibility.
Ignorant and childish semantics argument. The terms are synonymous FFS 🤦🏼♂️
And if there is a possibility of human life, then by definition, doing anything to that possibility is the killing of a possible human life?
You really need to stop saying “by definition” because your conclusions are all wrong. Especially when you provide no context to what’s going on inside the grey matter between your ears without providing what that definition is, precisely.
Is it better to let something try to live, instead of not giving it a chance at all? And in doing that we have to consider those fetuses/zygotes humans.
No. It is not. There are already over 90 million unwanted and orphaned offspring worldwide. Why add another mouth to feed to an already overpopulated population?
At birth, yes. Never before birth.But life begins at conception.
Quoting out of context fallacy.
The issue is personhood, not cellular life; i.e. you’re confusing cellular life with personhood…still.
And it is a human driven life (in other words) if left to its natural processes will create human life.
Huh? You need to re-read this drivel and rephrase.
Not a baby, but a viable fetus. Because medically that is what it is. A viable fetus.So, would it be ok to hurt or do anything morally unethical to that viable fetus two days before birth?
Morality is subjective.
And yes, it would if it poses an imminent risk to the pregnant female.
No, it’s not [a] person, not until birth (be it natural or by C section).Is potential human life ok to harm?
Yup. It’s called an abortion.
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@Lemming
Premade mini oven fired pizza crusts by Mia.
Original pizza sauce by Contadina.
Shredded Mozzarella and Parmesan cheese.
Pepperoni
Fresh mushrooms, sliced
Mini peppers sliced (into circles, not in half)
Fresh cut onions
Garlic powder (or garlic juice from jar of minced garlic)
Baked at 425 for 16 min
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@Lemming
After not enjoying a conversation with TWS1405.
Oh 😢 boo who!! Guess those pesky facts got you all discombobulated.
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@YouFound_Lxam
TWS1405_2🤦🏼♂️ Another “person” is not involved. The ONLY person involved in a pregnant girl/woman is that girl/woman.Then what would you call the zygote…
By its medically accurate term…zygote.
or fetus?
By its medically accurate term…fetus.
It is biologically not part of the woman's body.
Yes it is. If it is within her, attached to her, feeding off her…it is “biologically” a part of her body.
Yet has the capability to be its own person.
Capability (potentiality) =/= Actuality. Never has. Never will.
Personhood is NOT established until birth. That is a resolved and undeniable fact of social-psychology but more importantly, THE LAW!The law is also not always correct.
That’s an emotively driven subjective “opinion,” not fact. Until the law changes (i.e., the 14th Amendment), it stands as being correct and factually accurate.
Personhood is defined when a person starts to exist correct?
At birth, yes. Never before birth.
So, if birth is the defining factor of a person, then what would you call the baby, who is in the womb 2 days before birth?
Not a baby, but a viable fetus. Because medically that is what it is. A viable fetus.
Is that still not a person, and right to kill?
No, it’s not [a] person, not until birth (be it natural or by C section).
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@Sir.Lancelot
I’m getting ready to make a fresh homemade pizza then it’s quality time with wifey.
When I get a chance later (likely tomorrow), I intend to search my posts on Floyd in other forum discussions with all the evidence contradicting his. Then a little more research on top of it. Then I’ll start a new thread on Floyd and the deadly effects of fentanyl.
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Well it has become crystal clear that @Rational.Madman is all bark and no bite. 3 pages in and a bunch of excuses on his end shadowing his silence on accepting either of the 3 topics offered. Clearly he knows he would lose any such debate, so to save face he is just going to ignore me and tuck tail on his own challenge that I accepted.
Oh well.
Here endeth thy thread.
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@Lemming
Limits to bodily autonomy I suppose,Specifically when another person is involved.
🤦🏼♂️ Another “person” is not involved. The ONLY person involved in a pregnant girl/woman is that girl/woman.
Personhood is NOT established until birth. That is a resolved and undeniable fact of social-psychology but more importantly, THE LAW!
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@RationalMadman
I gave you six links that proves my claims. Again, you’re just lazy and disrespectful in not looking at the cited sources one gives to substantiate their argued/proffered position.
How much research has really been done into this? How are we so sure the slavers didnt rewrite the history?
You’re just full of excuses.
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@RationalMadman
Goddamn you’re so ignorant.
If you don’t believe me, you could look it up yourself and learn so I don’t have to waste my time being a tutor of African history. I mean really, FFS, look up Thomas Sowell.
Also, one (or more) of the links I provided speaks to that truth. Which goes to show you that you don’t even bother looking at the cited sources others give you. That’s just fucking lazy!!! And disrespectful.
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@RationalMadman
-->@YouFound_LxamOh did she hurt some of your racist ancestors? My apologies she should have let the slavers and rapists thrive in Africa just to make cunts happy.
You really are ignorant of African history as it relates to the history of the slave trade, etc. And when you make posts like this, it really demonstrates the Dunning Kruger Effect to the proverbial “T”!!
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@RationalMadman
I liked the movie regardless and they were real warriors.
What does their warrior status have to do with anything? Lots of groups across the world were “warriors” too. So what!
The movie shows something way beyond that. I think a lot of people today do not comprehend why there is deep rage and agony amongst blacks. This movie shows what ne er ever got proper justice done for.
What you’re not saying (admitting to) is the very FACT that: “Once you realize the narrative that the film presents intentionally side-steps the fact that the Dahomey were some of the worst slavers in not only African, but world history, the film as a whole just falls apart.”
The film was a lie!! And a bold face one too. Even Viola finally admitted it was fictionalized.
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@RationalMadman
That’s all you have to say and focus on, what you “think” the portrayal of the black men were like?
You’re wrong. You’re just not getting it. Here…
“Boyega’s King of Dahomey is emasculated by this woke fanfiction, as despite being an African king in the 1820s, his female soldiers are insubordinate to the point where it’s almost like they have themselves realized that they have ‘marginalized persons’ armor.
Not even the King’s own wife respects his authority. This is Feminist Storytelling 101 – a woman cannot be shown as being ‘equal’ to a man by her own merits, but only by tearing down men and making them look inferior.” -
https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/09/16/the-woman-king-review-a-fantasy-that-runs-from-the-truth/amp/
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@Greyparrot
They welcomed diversity so long as those taken in could be effectively forced into Roman culture.
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@Bella3sp
You need to insult people to cope with yourself on this website. Baiting others in argument which wasn't at all necessary.
This is my thread. Not yours. You came at me. I didn’t go to you. I don’t bait anyone. I leave that to people like you.
I don’t insult. I don’t have the power to insult anyone. If you feel insulted, that’s your doing. Not mine.
I wasn't in this forum to engage or challenge you in a debate. Once again, which you can't seem to grasp, is because I was interested. In other words, I would be there to vote.
Then maybe you should have checked your attitude at the door before commenting within. You came off like a childish jerk.
Thanks for the qualification. This will be my last response.
Pompous much? Narcissist much?
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@Lemming
I've seen you debate this point before,And am not inclined to add my own view to those against it,As I think those who have already argued against it, are sufficient.
Even if you did, you’d be = as wrong as the others.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
😂 You just proved the kids point. 🤣
Now who is the “moron”!!!
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@Lemming
I value humans,And see the unborn as human.
Within this context, you are conflating the terms humans and human.
Humans clearly means, ‘human beings.’ You use “as human” synonymously in the context given above. That is factually inaccurate.
A pregnancy =/= [a] human being.
Identifying a pregnancy “as human” conflates cellular life with personhood.
Personhood being defined as being [a] person (in other words, [a] human ‘being’). Such a social-psychologically accepted layman and a legal designation is not bestowed (categorically given) until BIRTH.
Prior to birth, the pregnancy is primarily seen, thought of, and spoken of in emotive terminology in favor of the less understood scientifically accurate terminology. Your use of “the unborn” is one such emotive term, as is “baby” and “child.” These terms make it difficult for rational and logical discourse on the subject of abortion.
A pregnancy = a potential human being, it is not an actual human being.
Potentiality =/= Actuality. Never has. Never will.
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Is it homophobic if I find gay male intimacy (not just porn) offputting, like it makes me gag a bit?
It’s a natural reaction to things found out of the norm (something not meant to be seen, smelled, felt, etc.)
Some people faint when they see blood.
Some people puke when they see dead body.
Some people feel nauseated when they smell bad things.
So on and so forth…
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Simply put, when nations base themselves on diversity, they open the doors for "tribal" like groups of people with different beliefs, races, and ethnicities to separate and not work together, therefore creating a society where no one gets along.Kid, you are a moron.
Couldn’t prove his factually accurate statement wrong, so you throw an ad hominem at him. 🙄
What he said is factually accurate. We’ve been witnessing for more than a decade; and it’s precisely why blacks (and other minorities) self-segregate from anyone and everyone outside of their racial group.
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@Bella3sp
How cute, she’s doubling down on the psychological projection. LOL!!
If you were truly interested in debate, you would be engaging me or others in an actual debate and not this childish tit for tat nonsense.
It is to YOU who looks foolish with these banal retorts.
Shut up or put up!
Shit or get off the 🚽!
Choice is yours.
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@Bella3sp
Your the one pestering me.
More sophomoric banality via psychological projection.
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Melcharaz,
Onky intellectual cowards block people with whom they disagree with or cannot out argue.
🃏
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@RationalMadman
You came at me with the challenge, I accepted.
I provided three topics and my position (pro), to date you’ve yet to choose either topic in their entirety. Your excuses have been invalidated. And your blatant misunderstanding of what topic 1 and 3 are clearly about speaks volumes.
Clearly your challenge was an empty one.
I mean really, when you asked me what I meant by “culture,” having given you a detailed reply, you said nothing. It’s as if you just ignored all of it. The. You asked me what topic I wanted to debate, sidestepping your role of choosing.
At this point it’s pretty clear you’re not wanting to debate me on any of those clearly worded three separate topics given.
So be it. 🗡️
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@Bella3sp
No. You really look u could not say the same.
Go outside and play, or pester someone else.
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@Bella3sp
Oh how cute, the typical “I know you are but what am I” sophomorically banal response. 🙄
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A masterpiece? Hardly. It was factually inaccurate where the slavery angle was portrayed.
“As alluded to earlier, the most significant historical inaccuracy in The Woman King is Dahomey's relationship to slavery. In the movie, Nanisca and Ghezo are passionately opposed to the slave trade and vow to end the practice. In reality, King Ghezo was one of the most vicious slavers in all of West Africa.“
“However, to the detriment of African history, The Woman King conceals Dahomey’s participation in the transatlantic slave trade between 1715 and 1850.”
“Historical fraudulence is a problem, but the reasons behind it are what cause alarm. Director Gina Prince-Bythewood and screenwriters Dana Stevens and Maria Bello gainsay Dahomey’s role in the slave trade, trivializing the complications of that original sin. Instead, they offer another Millennial gender-flip, conceived to further sexual confusion via racial frustration and feminist anger.”
All this movie did was demonstrate denialism via a rewriting of factual history with factual inaccuracies.
Not only that, it is a feminist’s wet dream where the men are emasculated and the women’s abilities were grossly over exaggerated.
It’s lengthy, but here is a black woman (and a pretty cute one too) explaining that this movie is problematic and not what BW need.
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🤦♂️ those are not too is for legit debate.
Perhaps childish banter, but not a debate.
Perhaps childish banter, but not a debate.
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@Melcharaz
Thanks for contributing nothing.
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@RationalMadman
Yeah you want a loophole in topics 1 and 3 to say all racism is cultural not racial
Wrong. That’s not what I’m (or Ben Shapiro in that video for which the black pastor agreed, as do many blacks for that matter) saying AT ALL!!!
If you cannot comprehend plainly written language, what makes you think you can out argue me in a debate!?!
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@RationalMadman
No, you’re the one who is afraid.
Bet you didn’t watch that video I linked to with the black pastor. That video explains to the proverbial “T” why both parts of topic one are not NOT mutually exclusive (they go hand in hand).
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@RationalMadman
Nope. The second part is part and parcel to the first part.
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@RationalMadman
You told me to select three topics and what position I’d take, then you’d choose.
Now you want me to choose? 🤦♂️
I could out argue you on any of the three. But the first and third are a part of my favorite current real world topics, and ones I’ve researched to no end since I obtained my criminology degree.
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