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@3RU7AL
ok so only those with a religious objection can object and they must prove it or be forced to use their body/labor to preform a special and or unique act/creation or face the possibility that men with guns will come and put them in a cage.
when you ask for something you are asking to enter into a contract with that person. why shouldn't someone be allowed to decline the offer to enter into a contract with another? Why does a rejected offer require a reason or explanation?
do you think religious texts and teachings are objective or subjective?
Is there only one interpretation of these texts?
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@Outplayz
life has no value to these kinds of people and it's getting worse imo. Consider when one of these nut jobs kills some people, family members whatever and then kills themselves, that just makes no sense at all.
you are right there's no fear of consequences or even being killed, in some of these cases their goal is to be killed.
If you look back you can see the trend that has lead us to this point imo, lack of respect and morality has snowballed into what we are experiencing now. Unfortunately you can't put the genie back in the bottle nor turn back the hands of time. This is our new normal. All anyone can do is protect them and their own the best they can.
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@3RU7AL
How do you object to a gay wedding but not to a divorcee wedding?
can atheist object to gay weddings or are they somehow prohibited from doing so?
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@Snoopy
yup it's called a contract
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@Mopac
it is bound to happen I think, though they will be the ones who start it. sanctions really to work apparently and I think Trump is just fine with turning the screws. He doesn't need to do anything else.
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@ludofl3x
So as long as they're not asking for "extra cheese" or something, then he must make whatever's on the menu? Where do you draw THAT line? Can you order a hamburger no bun if you're not black, but if you're black, you have to have the bun?Where does the idea of 'at gunpoint' ever enter what I'm saying? Gluten refusal is not analogous as often this is not a choosable option.
1. you don't have to give a reason to not do something out of the ordinary
2. if you choose to enforce or make someone do it, you do it by sending people in uniform with guns to threaten them to do it or take them away
ordering a hamburg with no bun is asking someone to NOT do something, you as asking them to NOT put a bun on it, that is totally opposite of what I have been describing. Regardless they can still say no and tell you to just take it off yourself.
you should look up a video on the "Soup Nazi" from the Seinfeld series, you didn't follow his rules and "NO SOUP FOR YOU, NEXT!" super funny
I still think you are missing my over all point of forcing someone to do something they don't want to and limited instances I'm talking about.
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@ludofl3x
What if you were in the culinary arts (a chef), you owned a restaurant, and decided to start kicking out people based on what you think is their sexual orientation?
totally different scenario, he's making what is on the menu, they are not asking for anything above and beyond that, nothing custom or unique to their situation.
Let's say someone asked for a dish but wanted it gluten free, can he refuse or must he make it at gun point?
Do you always have to give a reason for refusal? is there a law that says so?
I'm just wondering how we draw the line.
that's what I'm trying to figure out as well, apparently though these lines are enforced at gun point.
Much like freedom of speech, people have the right to say and do what is unpopular, unkind and even stupid, that's the price for freedom.
what I'm talking about with regards to this topic is forced labor, that's how I see it.
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@Greyparrot
they don't actually need to, they can make up lies and the sheeple will still follow the wolves.
this is and has been an obstructionist smear campaign, it's not like they are trying to hide their true intentions.
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@DBlaze
if the I.R.S. hasn't/can't find anything criminal there's nothing TO find, that's their job and they are the experts. It's like going to the doctor and getting a second opinion from the janitor.
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@YeshuaRedeemed
Let's hope it happens before 2020 so we won't have to witness that coming shit show, meh it had to end sometime, this is just a good a time as any.
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@3RU7AL
your list to compel isn't about an individual using their physical labor to provide something for someone else. You are expanding this way beyond what I am saying and I've tried to narrow it down by using the cake example. Under very specific instances I think people should be able to choose if they want to do a thing. This is not the same as refusing service, again like the cake shop they could have purchased a ready made one, the labor had already been done at that point.
If I'm an artist or artisan who does custom work or work to order then I can pick and choose which jobs I will accept and I don't have to give any reason for refusal. And no one should force me to do whatever is being requested, which I don't wish to do, at gun point.
Hopefully that makes my position clearer.
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@DBlaze
why would anyone give out any personal information that they didn't have to?
what would be the benefit to him to release them?
how useful would this information even be and to what end?
just more political b.s.
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@secularmerlin
yeah I dunno, I'm talking about individuals.....so we aren't in reality talking about a large number of people really.
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@secularmerlin
it's easier to change minds and show the err of their ways if they aren't in the shadows. they whole adage of casting light on shadows, something like that.
what you are saying has expanded what I'm actually talking about which is forcing a private individual to perform a physical task at gun point. Specifically nothing that is actually needed like medical attention because I KNOW someone will use that. Things like the wedding cake issue.
Price gouging and inferior goods is a different subject.
there is no real logical reason to discriminate imo but if you are going to explain and or show people why it's not logical you need to first find out what and why they think as they do, beating someone with a stick, threat whatever just doesn't work.
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@3RU7AL
All laws "compel action" by threat of force.
do they? trying to think of what other laws actually forces you do something physically with your body, can't think of anything atm What law forces you to work or perform work against your will? Drawing a blank, help me out there.
If a sole proprietor doesn't want to "serve the public" they should open a private club.
isn't that his private business/property if he is the owner?
if it is he can invite people or not onto his property anytime he chooses can't he?
do we have rights over our own property?
to what end?
Actions that support individual equality and the function of a peaceful society should be enforced by law.
how about blood donations, there's always a shortage, that saves lives shouldn't that be mandatory over hurt feelings or inconvenience?
looking for some lines here.
just to be clear you seem to be fine with forcing people to work at gun point because discrimination is the greater of 2 evils.
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@DBlaze
tardness is a russian troll lol
forgot his name on ddo but you'd think after all those posts and time his English etc would get better, and yet.....very odd.
A modified flat tax would fix all this mess to a large extent. But the tax bureaucracy lives on. I had small hopes when the talk was making tax return forms the size of an index card or whatever they said.
The tax code and I.R.S. only exist to enable to the rich to hide their money. Can you blame someone for doing that if the law allows? The federal government is full of millionaires who have been in government for decades making, what $175k a year? Owning several million dollar homes. They sure are good with their money (sarcasm in case it wasn't painfully obvious)
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@3RU7AL
so then it comes back to do you force the individual who has not agreed or bound to specific behavior and standards to an employer, do you force the sole proprietor to perform under threat of force?
to what end?
how can you justify such actions?
what other compelled actions should we force at gun point?
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@3RU7AL
that is not what I am saying at all, I differentiated between employees who agree to the terms and conditions against a sole proprietor. How many racists do you see? Sure there are some but not many at all. Their affects and numbers are greatly exaggerated by the media. I'd prefer they be out in the open than hiding. But I guess ignorance is bliss to many.
wouldn't you like to know if the person who is preparing your food is racists against you or would you just hope they don't do something to it?
Knowledge is power.
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@3RU7AL
Well nearly every job is "compelled" either by incentives or threats or both.
except by taking the job you've agreed to their terms and conditions, if you work for yourself you make your own terms and conditions. that's a large difference to me.
Are you suggesting we should repeal the Civil Rights Act? ...And the Americans with Disabilities Act?
I don't think they are needed any longer and this would make the people who would discriminate against those groups more obvious and known, which I don't think is a bad thing. I'd prefer to know what kind of person I'm dealing with instead of someone who is hiding because of the law.
Would you want someone preparing you food who would ordinarily discriminate against you, but because of the law they can't? I'd want to know upfront so I can find an alternative place who I could trust, who does want my business and then i could inform others.
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@Snoopy
that's a great point, they kill far more people than criminals ever will or have.
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@Alec
they live in this fantasy world that they can wave a magic wand like Harry Potter and just make them all disappear. don't remember if it was in this thread or another, but go to the tube and search "casting resin ar15 lower" yep you can make on in a mold. that process will only get better and expand.
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@Outplayz
would gang crime stay the same, or will it get worse?
there would no longer be a need for a gun black market, so gun thefts would no longer be worth the risk.
it's an interesting question which imo would be like the cold war, you have equally armed opponents who know if either one starts the fight the losses will be great on both sides and there really won't be a winner. the battlefield would now be level. I don't believe a rival gang would go after a better armed one so if there's a balance/equality it's a stalemate I think.
A larger group would still be at a disadvantage going after a smaller group who is better/more armed.
High causality rate is probably not a good recruitment tool for gangs.
Some of the problems with everyone being armed are vigilante groups which could form as a neighborhood watch, though they may not as everyone being armed sounds like a great crime deterrent.
So long as people are imperfect accidents will happen just as they currently do. Though I would advocate for no cost training and practice. Tax payers pay for law enforcement training which should also be open to anyone else interested in relation to the topic.
Another school shooting in Colorado, the shooters stopped shooting when they were stopped (by students) which is often the case, unfortunately one of the students was killed because all they could do is throw bodies at them. another armed person could have changed what happened for the better. They were very lucky it turned out like it did.
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@3RU7AL
ok I better understand the issue I think, however I also believe there is a difference and a distinction should be made between being an employer vs a business owner or self contractor. And as such I don't believe anyone has the right to make them do anything they don't wish to, whether it's for a specific reason or no reason at all. Forced labor under threat, whether it's paid for or not is still wrong imo.
their decisions should be respected, this does not mean there won't be consequences, people can ask to boycott the business, protest legally and what ever other legal means are available. This is a more civilized and appropriate approach than threat of violence to force labor. Don't you think?
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@3RU7AL
I was asking questions, hence the use of this symbol ?
I'll try to rephrase, Should someone be forced to use they physical energy, labor, their body to do something, anything for someone else if they don't want to?
If yes, are you ok with forcing someone to do the above by sending people with guns to force them to do so?
Obviously this does not apply to employees because employers can compel action or terminate the employment.
as a side not, yes I agreed and supported the cake shop's position.
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@mustardness
tax shelters and loopholes have been around for a very long time, you don't think the all the rich people in government don't do the same thing? You think Pelosi doesn't abuse the tax loopholes? Wake up to reality and get some help for your TDS
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@Snoopy
there are a lot of practical reasons to not have sex outside of marriage if one were to look at it objectively so I don't find in this context the label of immoral as an emotional reason or arbitrary one as some seem to think, just adding my 2 cents.
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@disgusted
If I can choose what to do with my body/labor, without the force and threat of people with guns forcing me to do preform with my body/labor than any religious objection is moot as it's my body/labor choice so I don't have to give a reason., which is exactly what I said previously, perhaps a 2nd reading will help you understand better?
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@n8nrgmi
is your position that one hundred percent of people who are denied a gun via background checks will run out and get one illegally? if that's not your position, wouldn't not having a gun lower the chances that someone will kill in a spontaneous act of passion domestic dispute?
is your position that one hundred percent of people who are denied a gun via background checks that someone won't will kill in a spontaneous act of passion domestic dispute?
what percent of people who run out and get one illegally kill in a spontaneous act of passion domestic dispute?
how many who kill in a spontaneous act of passion domestic dispute obtain a gun illegally?
you going to play the Obama bs about if it can just save one life nonsense? LOL
If every woman could purchase and carry a gun with no barriers, would they have a better chance of defending themselves? seems so don't you think?
how many denied by the background check just purchase one from the black market?
these questions are impossible to answer but since many are stolen or gained through a straw purchase it sure seems to me a majority don't even bother attempting to purchase on legally.
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@Greyparrot
It's also a primer when they attempt to discredit Barr when the indictments come down, potentially to the likes of Comey and Clinton among others. Let the chips fly!!!!
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@mustardness
I'm still not clear on what Barr lied about,
Mueller author and investigator of the report, did not, has not and looks like will not contradict what Barr has said. Mueller, investigator and author of the collusion and obstruction report did not find either one.
Do you want us all to believe that he did and didn't put it in his report? Or he put it in his report and then lied about it? Or that Barr saw it in the report and lied about and Mueller didn't contradict what Barr said the findings were?
Mueller didn't investigate all by himself did he? Did anyone come forward or leak that Mueller was bias or made a false report/investigation?
Would Mueller have spent that much time and money for this investigation to lie about it?
What is it you are trying to have us believe?
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@3RU7AL
do I need one to not use my body/labor to do something for someone? Can I be forced to use my body/labor under threat of violence? aka police with guns, the law?I'm still waiting to hear those specific "religious objections"
can a person have a moral objection without it being religious?
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@Alec
of course you are correct, but this is an anti religion argument and an authoritarian way of making people do what they don't want to do. These are the same people who make the argument that people have the right to choose over their own body, but apparently that choice is only limited to killing things, not labor, property they own or services they offer.
I find it hypocritical that they want autonomy and choice over what they do with their own bodies but would force people to use their bodies to labor and provide services to those they have religious objections to. Funny how that works.
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@Greyparrot
@Ramshutu
just like Ram and others have said...
how the fear of nuclear power was created by people who had ideological fears or sought to exploit it for political gain
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@Greyparrot
10 Millionaires Who Never Graduated College
1. Steve Jobs
clearly a moron, borderline retarded.
10 Billionaires Who Never Went to College
more dummies
55 School Drop Out Billionaires Without College Degree
yup
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@Alec
that's true guns are the great equalizer, the smallest weakest female has a chance to protect herself from the biggest baddest man, without a gun, no chance.
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@Outplayz
an armed populace would be extremely hard to control, consider a what if scenario in Venezuela. this down play that it could never happen in the U.S. it wouldn't do any good etc I find a bit concerning. Even in these countries the military doesn't always support the dictator, not 100% of the military anyway. How else could regimes falls, which they have. Then you have the likes of Spartacus running for 2020 and his federal licence b.s., people should be very concerned about people like him and what he espouses. Given the platforms most if not all the dummycrats are running on Trump should remove as many gun restrictions as possible while he can.
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in movies when the girl wears the guys button up shirt and nothing else, super sexy
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@Greyparrot
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw
Rush The Trees
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@Vader
have you been wearing a fake beard? has anyone been using your wash clothe to polish brass? Unless you are a serious Seinfeld fan you won't know what I'm referring to :)
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@Stronn
and look a the ones running for 2020, they haven't learned a single thing from what happened, at this point I hope he wins again.
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@Greyparrot
I don't feel like reading all 11 pages, but thought the title was a bit odd.
Is poverty a bad thing? Considering anyone rarely starves to death in the U.S. and many of the poor are obese. Trying being poor in some of these other countries.
Hell many people in these other countries would LOVE to be one of the poor in the U.S.
Poverty has been a great motivator to many successful people who have contributed a lot to the U.S.
So what really is the downside of being poor and what does being poor mean exactly?
Not everyone can have the best, that only happens on tv like Star Trek
saw something funny, in the old days only the rich had cars and everyone else had horses, now everyone has a car and only the rich can afford horses.
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@Greyparrot
yeah that was the final nail in that coffin lol
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@Outplayz
"I can't think of any country that has this sort of "wide open carry" type situation."
The closest example I can think of is Sweden.
There are some states with premissive gun laws and some of them have the lowest gun murder rates. It's common logic and backed by interviews of criminals that they seek easy victims. Cost/benefit the chances of a big muscled man being robbed or mugged is far less than an elderly female. should we ban all elderly females?
Which house is more likely to be robbed, one that appears to have a survivalist living in it or similar? Or the home of some beta male who doesn't even know how to start a push mower?
this all holds true for armed vs unarmed
if concealed carry was unregulated, it would seem logical that there would be a higher risk of a random person being armed. Now let's take this a step further. What if everyone or most wore something under their clothes that printed in such a way it could appear to be a gun? Now you have a situation where anyone that wants to can easily be armed and everyone or most everyone appears that they are. How do you choose a victim? Not so easy anymore is it. Now the risk has increased greatly, for many, much more than any potential reward.
Since mass shooting victim numbers are directly tied to how long it takes for the shooter to be stopped, more people with guns who have the opportunity to stop them = less victims.
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@Greyparrot
degrees and college entrances can be purchased anyway. the standards and requirements at all levels of education has been lowered and that trend continues so I find no real validity in claims of college = intelligence.
plenty of intelligent people have gone to trade schools, started business etc
how many college grads work at places like Starbucks? whatever degree they have, doesn't sound like that was a very intelligent choice.
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@mustardness
"There exists rational, logical common sense set of reasons for humanity to put away their desire to have weapons to kill each other."
that's partially true, guns are NOT the sole way people murder each other.
A vast majority of weapons are not purchased or acquired to kill another.
"This is obvious conclusion to mature and mentalitty balanced adult humans."
mature and mentally balanced adult humans don't kill each other therefore guns and their ownership is irrelevant.
If you remove the will, desire or reason to kill, guns and their ownership becomes irrelevant.
If you treat or cure violent mental illness, guns and their ownership becomes irrelevant.
If you remove all humans from the earth, guns become irrelevant.
root cause=people =/= guns
solution, remove will,desire,reason to kill
treat or cure violent mental illness
How do we do that? I don't know but we should first focus and explore for a solution. which won't happen if it's not made a priority, which it is not.
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@mustardness
"Those who use false, misleading statements in concert with a lack of empathy for the people they are to represent"
do you think this is how Clinton was viewed therefore people felt no choice than to vote for Trump?
would being called deplorable sway you to vote for the person calling you names, belittling you, putting you down?
Probably not the best strategy to win an election imo.
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@Snoopy
I have heard the number of first time gun buyers has been going down. which imo makes sense as the prices are falling pretty fast and low. This seems to happen when people don't feel a threat from proposed bans and laws. Prices and sales rose pretty high during Obama, the numbers sure reflect that fact. I believe people do knee jerk purchase or reactionary purchase because of proposed bans, laws, restrictions etc. Therefore creating more demand.
So would the opposite be true? If restrictions were removed would that decrease the demand? It might. Do background checks really deter gun crime? I don't think so. There's no evidence that N.I.C.S. had any effect on reducing gun crimes, anecdotal evidence at best. When you look at yearly rates, why does the rate go up and down? Perhaps the real answer lies there. The rates rise and fall without any additional laws or bans, how is this explained? can it be explained?
would the lack of laws entice you to commit a gun crime? I wouldn't, and yet even with all the laws etc people still choose to commit gun crimes where a vast majority do not and would not.
this belief if only there were more laws then these things wouldn't happen is laughable.
If life in prison and or a death penalty isn't enough of a deterrent than what more could be?
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@DBlaze
"I completely agree, I hope you got my sarcasm in my post. It says that they think Hilary was in the right by calling a potential voter base deplorable."
yes i got the sarcasm.
they don't even understand their own hypocrisy, they cry and carry on about tolerance and yet show very little tolerance. Fascist calling themselves anti fascist. This list is long but the kool aid sweet enough that they continue to ignore their how flaws and continue to point the finger instead of taking personal responsibility.
Personal responsibility and self sufficient are not in the democratic party vocabulary.
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@Snoopy
shot gun slug barrels aren't rifled, the rifling is in the slug itself, I don't know physics etc but I'm not so sure the same thing couldn't be applied to smaller calibers. It's probably more expensive to make them that way, but if the demand is there.....never under estimate human ingenuity.
(look at the ballistic type tests on shotgun slugs if you haven't)
cnc shops and machines would fill any need, supply and demand.
there was some tv show, red jacket something or other which was a small business that made guns. Kel-Tec is out of Florida for example. Someday there will be alternative materials to steel, polymers and resins will get stronger, kevlar is a pretty good example of ingenuity and a metal alternative. Aluminum changed how and what things are made from. Again there's videos of people casting lowers from aluminum cans. There's no real demand for that ability, we shouldn't create one either.
"When you consider that the aim is just to lower the supply/demand and make it less practical for kids without father figures then you are giving the theory an honest run for its money. "
are you referring to the aim of background checks?
What % of gun crimes are committed by males w/o father figures? I'd bet it's very high.
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