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@Greyparrot
You've already demonstrated that you are one of those trash talking race baiters conflating culture with the DNA of a person.
they can't see the forest for the trees.
there's a rap "culture" which isn't color specific or color unique as one of hundreds of examples. your going to have to dumb it down a lot more if you want them to understand what you are talking about....obviously.
people with strong common bonds and interests tend to stick together regardless of x and so long as these groups aren't negatively impacted or threat of by other groups all is well, however when clashes or potential of happen.....here we are. People for the most part just want to be left alone.
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@TheRealNihilist
because as I have said this has all been posted before, besides if you do the work and find the information yourself, it means more to you. Form your own opinion with your own knowledge rather than be spoon fed. From the research I have done, it has shown me that the punishments are far to lax, often these attempt at illegal purchase aren't prosecuted.
Here I'll help you out a tad, remember the muslim husband and wife who committed the mass murder in California? they got their guns via straw purchase. Research what happened to the person who illegally purchased the guns for them.
There's another but I don't recall the name, should be easy enough for you to find. Girlfriend buys her boyfriend a gun, knowing he's a felon and can't possess one, he uses the gun and kills some people. Again see what kind of punishment she received.
once you do that tell me what you think of those and if you don't believe those are typical explain why.
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@Outplayz
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@TheRealNihilist
tell ya want, find out how many felons were caught by the NICS check for trying to buy a gun then see how many were actually prosecuted.
now after you do that, look up how may straw purchasers have been caught, their punishment, then weed out the straw purchaser that purchased guns used in murders and see their punishment.
then let us know if you think the laws and punishments are stringent enough, enforced consistently enough and the punishment is strong enough.
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@TheRealNihilist
sigh, there are many solutions, enforcing current laws being the most obvious.
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@TheRealNihilist
I've said it so many times, search my posts and read them, guess I should make some files I can just copy and paste from, but until I do that, that's all your going to get from me.
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@dustryder
So a constitutional ruling on ammunition does not entail the same constitutional ruling on firearms
I don't know what that means, there was talk of banning ammo but that quickly went away as they new it wouldn't be constitutional.
Which doesn't change that they are both fundamentally banning a subsection of guns. One of which did not lead to more bans.
the assault weapons ban was specific and restrictive nothing like what you are advocating for.
Bullets don't automatically cause death. That's why there are a number of injury statistics next to fatalities in datasets.
they don't that's true many more people survived Las Vegas than were killed 58 killed 546 wounded or a 9.6% kill rate.
Virginia Tech, hand guns 32 killed 23 injured 58.2% kill rate.
you see it's very situational, when you look at the other murders most are around the 10% mark. If the Ar was so deadly how did so many escape wounded instead of dead in Las Vegas AND he might have used a bump stock?
Orlando night club was just under 50% kill rate
Aurora theater 12/70
Luby's 24/20 (hang guns again)
McDonald's 22/19 (hand guns)
circumstances and situations that really can't be accounted for in the stats or your studies. For all the talk about power, lethality etc, the numbers don't seem to really show that.
there's also how many shots were taken, the length of time the shooter had which I mentioned before those are huge key factors when looking that these numbers, which the studies can't factor in. Even you would have to agree the longer it takes the shooter to be stopped the more people they can shoot.
Practical rate of fire for all semi-auto actuated fire arms is not the same however.
explain
one final thought on barrel length do you think the ballistics are significantly different between a 16" barrel (shortest legal) and a 15" barrel handgun?
No
good I don't think there's any significant difference either, with that said, one would be banned, the other would not, unless you'd like to now expand the ban into some hand guns or specific rounds?
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@Greyparrot
when you look at the % of race on same race murders we could almost divide them and do the comparison that way. It's like the U.S. has 2 countries or more within it's borders.
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@Greyparrot
first comment on reddit link
"But Switzerland, poland, czech-republic have less gun laws than the majority of other OECD countries and yet low gun deaths. HOW IS POSSIBLE!? Also, Mexico it's illegal and their gun deaths! But HAU??"
doh!
I'm not aware of any animated guns going around shooting people. As far as I know and please correct me if I'm wrong, there's a "bad person" using a gun in a bad way therefore it goes back to the "bad person".
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not my avocados!!!!! what will I do without my avocados? lerdy lerdy halp meh, oh wait read that most now come from California and Florida, nvm i'll be fine, carry on.
Whom to you think will blink first if it is closed? Trump or Mexico? What is another way to do some arm twisting to get what you want AND what is right? I believe they were asked nicely, then perhaps a little more strongly and now, here we are. If you aren't willing to play hardball you are ball-less.
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@Outplayz
it really is odd to think about. Consider creepy Joe, why would he run again? His days on this earth are numbered. Any changes he could make, he's not going to be around for much longer to benefit from. Now I can see if someone is religious. But most of these type people are not, hence late term abortions etc.
Gun control is about people control and they are doing just fine with the media and political promises.
There's some saying about sheep being happy they are being fed by the farmer not knowing he will slaughter them for food, something like that, you get the idea.
We've tried controls, bans and regulations for half a century now? perhaps we should go the other way like some states have or are doing. Vermont has very lax laws I think and yet one of the lowest in murders. Might be worth finding out why. make no mistake, murders and mass murders a good for those in power, fear is a great tool to use for control.
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@Outplayz
that's a lot of good observations, many I hadn't thought of before. There's a lot to the issue for sure and a good reason why the typical answer is, "we don't know" Imo not enough attention and focus has been placed on the root cause aka the individual and too much on the tool. Which faster than we know technology will make most of the restrictions moot, they pretty much are anyway in reality, but technology will make it even easier. Better to be proactive then the reactive we've been for so long imo.
They have their head in the sand grasping as straws, gun control aka people control is slipping through their fingers like sand.
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@dustryder
as I have said I find enough flaws with your "evidence" that I don't find it useful, then when compared to other facts like ballistics etc, the lines you are attempting to draw aren't possible, but instead it would be a circle, not a line.
because a ban on one thing does not entail a ban on another.
sure but you can't draw any lines so.....
The exact same logic can be used to say fully automatic weapons have been constitutionally banned, therefore semi-automatic weapons can be constitutionally banned.
you should read up on how and why that came to be and how and why that can't happen to semi autos, not constitutionally anyway.
A ban has been implemented previously, with no further subsequent bans or expansions
yes it was specific, you are calling for a semi auto rifle ban huge difference as well as expansions or additional inclusions.
Fundamentally, some level of gun ownership is protected by the second amendment
but what that means no one has answered yet
These facts indicate that a ban on assault weapons is unlikely to lead to further bans.
yes, I just have to have faith, I know.
you don't seem to understand or grasp the implications and all that goes with the U.S. constitution, making modifications or changes to it.
I didn't use it as a justification to keep/place a gun on the ban list. I used it as a justification, among others as to why the difference between rifles and handguns is not limited to just their mechanism, which you previously claimed.
again there has been no apples to apples proof. If put a 5 inch pipe through your monitor or a 3 inch one, in the end it doesn't make any difference does it. so at what point does the expansion not make any appreciable difference? no one seems to know because when you look at the videos, fbi tests etc most seem to be pretty dramatic. reminds me of Miracle Max The Princess Bride, they are just mostly dead not all dead.
except for Las Vegas as I have said, range hasn't been a deciding or major factor in the mass murders so barrel length isn't very important and perhaps a hindrance depending on the scenario. Whatever increased velocity a longer barrel gives is on par or perhaps causes a larger wound cavity than handguns of certain calibers and bullet designs, but again dead it dead.
Managing muzzle flip with hand guns can be done quickly even by complete novices. So this recoil theory you have doesn't have the impact you think, consider the videos I posted also showed women who managed just fine.
everything seems to hinge on this claim that .223 puts big holes in things, yep so doesn't a lot of other guns, handgun included. But you'd ban them for that reason even though we aren't banning guns based on their abilities that also put big holes in things.
Rate of fire for all semi auto actuated fire arms is the same, as fast as you can pull the trigger regardless of form factor.
Barrel length aka rifle form factor, isn't really a factor, or hasn't been so yet. (anomalies)
All semi autos with detachable magazines can hold 100 rounds or more. so the detachable magazine isn't a thing just for rifles.
because of these I don't believe it would/should/could end with just a simple semi auto rifle ban, that just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm having difficulty understanding why it makes sense to you other than you see it as a path of least resistance to which I would say slippery slope since the handguns could easily be shown to meet the criteria for banning.
If you expand to ban all semi auto which make up 90% of all firearms (don't quote me on that, was something I heard) then for all practical purposes it's a gun ban, which I have stated and reasoned prior.
one final thought on barrel length do you think the ballistics are significantly different between a 16" barrel (shortest legal) and a 15" barrel handgun?
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@DBlaze
remember the muslim female who said white men either tried or ripped her head dress off? only that never happened either....there's been a couple more similar fake instances. the president set by no punishment isn't going to be good. This is a banner for which racist can rally behind and push those on the fence closer to that side. The untended consequences won't be immediate but I believe there will be some. There is no benefit to further polarization of races that I can think of, but here we are.
They could have and should have made an example of him to deter copay cat future incidents. Their forethought was non existent
I hope the feds can and do bring proper charges for the reasons I've stated above.
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@DBlaze
this wasn't a spur of the moment, heat of the moment occurrence, he used money and thought out plans, this wasn't a thoughtless mistake, it was premeditated. He should be charged as such. People make mistakes, bad judgement do stupid things, but this was planned out and probably over a good length of time. That is why it shouldn't so easily be excused or brushed off because he is a 'protect' class, famous or wealthy.
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@Snoopy
those are great ideas and I totally agree
see if you can square this circle (though we are getting off topic) People demand guns be kept safe and some tout the gun accident rates etc, so why not set up police departments and similar agencies to hold free gun training and safety courses? Include offering them in schools. Obviously not mandatory, though safety should be from a public health standpoint. Yet this is generally not offered, makes you wonder why.
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@Outplayz
you are suppose give some kind of warning before engaging... i don't know if that means warning shot or yelling you have a gun
tell me that's not true!?!?!?!
if you have time to give a warning shot or whatever that means you are NOT in immediate danger and YOU'LL be charged in most states, again in most states if you pull a gun you'd better use it otherwise you were not in immediate danger and you shouldn't have pulled it, that's call brandishing. I'd really check up on the laws which I'm sure is near impossible in California. But there's probably websites that can help. Many pro 2a make videos etc and give free advice.
but these people also aren't very smart, or just delusional. So, if the news keeps saying AR rifles was used to cause devastating damage.. that's all they remember. It's like a check list for them... AR = lost's of damage, got it buy an AR.
that's actually pretty brilliant imo, when you consider the notoriety these sickos get and even some of the media etc say they shouldn't get the coverage that they do, it's like they are being glorified so the next sicko wants to be #1. these twisted minds need to know if they do something like that no one will ever know their names or remember them, it couldn't hurt after all.
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@dustryder
If the youtube videos are rooted in objective fact you should have no trouble finding scientific studies and/or evidence attesting to what the videos claim.However by telling me your information is entirely derived from videos means that the information you have is unverified and unobjective.
if you bothered to educate yourself you would have seen many of the videos made no claims some aren't even narrated but left up to you to believe your own eyes, which in these instances I do. I don't need to have faith in studies when I can observe the reality and draw my own conclusions from it. Being a free thinker is important. None of these contradict the FBI studies, unless you want to argue the FBI is wrong.
a real world visual representation which goes with the ballistics chart Snoopy posted is pretty basic to understand what is actually happening and the ability of these calibers.
Apart from this, equating the ruling of a ban on large capacity magazines to a ruling on a ban of semi auto rifles is horribly flawed logic.
sure because you say so
It is not up to me to demonstrate that it wouldn't. It is for you to demonstrate that it would. You're the one who's claiming that it's a slippery slope situation. And you have utterly failed to demonstrate this.
hardly, you've gone from assault weapons to all semi auto rifles and have mentioned to include some hand guns but you didn't or wouldn't elaborate. Also your ban would include verbiage so it would be modified, updated whatever to include new designs that were similar, some kind of arbitrary sliding scale.
when asked if specific guns or features would be banned they largely went ignored and unanswered, at best some vague non answer one could expect from a politician.
You tried to use a temporary wound cavity as a justification, but yet you can't or won't say how large a temporary wound cavity is acceptable to keep a gun off the ban list etc, I could go on, but it's not necessary.
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@dustryder
the ballistic videos I've posted and researched on my own rather than relying on studies, apparently you don't watch the videos and things I post since your level of education about guns hasn't seem to increased much, but regardless, a judge has ruled that California's large capacity magazine ban is unconstitutional, therefore so would banning semi auto rifles. Things like banning x so that you can't get y has also been struck down but courts, so none of the keep the magazines for guns that will be banned silliness, that doesn't work.
I am satisfied enough that your proposal and how it would work would just lead to a weapons ban, also you haven't demonstrated how it wouldn't or couldn't
you are tilting at windmills.
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@Snoopy
that goes without saying, people poach deer with .22 and I believe the Israel army or police used or still use .22, though I don't recall the specifics.
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@dustryder
but now that we've established that rifles are typically more lethal than handguns we can move on.
but you aren't banning all rifles right? just semi autos with detachable magazines, yes?
you aren't banning the round or placing a restriction of foot pounds etc so the only attributes left are semi auto with detachable magazines, correct?
You've already see the pump ar-15 look a like, do you think someone would make that pump action much easier and short so it could fire faster? I sure think so.
if you look at the ballistics, again .380, 9mm etc handgun rounds also come in rifle form and depending on the round still don't compare to a .223 handgun, 357 magnum, 30-30 etc all more than sufficient to do what they are designed when you look at their wound cavities.
From what I have actually seen the bullet type is the major factor i.e. hollow point, though if you look at ballistics from Lehi Defense (sp) they are even more impressive to which others will improve even more on their designs. At one time police carried 45 acp handguns, then 40 and now 9mm, some of the reasons are the advancements in ammunition and hand guns themselves. The Hudson handgun, while it didn't ever take off, their innovative way of thinking and design will probably be copied and improved to a point they will all but negate any muzzle flip issues. Just something to think about.
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@Outplayz
these silly bans for cosmetic reasons etc take away from the real issues and proper focus of those mentaly unstable who would perpetrate such crimes.
Oh in case no one noticed....
Federal judge blocks high-capacity ammunition ban in California.
tangent alert: with all the bans and restrictions overturned explain how they aren't attacking the 2a
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@dustryder
as snoopy posted
is a pretty good reference since the links and discussion at one time or another has been about power or force, is there some foot pounds of force limit all guns would have to have or be under for the ban?
saw a video comparing a 30-30 to an ar-15, ar much longer range, 30-30 much bigger bullet, I think the speed was not all that different either, then if you look at a .357 magnum fired from a rifle.....
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@dustryder
all semi auto rifles with detachable magazines (does this include the smaller calibers like .22 and handgun calibers that happen to be in rifle form?if a rifle does not have a detachable magazine but still fires the .223 round either in pump, lever or bolt action would those be approved
You've answered your own questions here
why would you ban a .22 semi auto rifle but not all the handgun calibers 380 and higher, which are much more powerful?
If a semi auto handgun with a detachable magazine is designed to fire the .223 round but has a 9 inch barrel would those be approved?
Yes.
ok so it's a barrel length thing then, which must be 16" or longer. Anything shorter than 16" is a short barrel rifle which requires additional paperwork etc to own/possess. Unless it's classified,sold or built as a pistol which has a brace instead of a stock, brace makes it a pistol, stock a short barrel rifle.
an ar pistol isn't banned but a 9mm rifle that looks like an ar would be. you may want to rethink this.
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@Snoopy
very handy, thanks, check out the 44 mag about half the speed but 10x the bullet weight, until you get the shorter barrels then their speed is as little as 200 fps.
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@dustryder
Agreed. Hollow point bullets tend to inflict more damage. However you have not shown the gun component is "minor". A hollow point bullet shot a rifle is likely to be more damaging than a hollow point bullet shot from a handgun.
as ballistics show the non hollow point rifle round tends to pass through and not expand or cause a wound cavity as a hollow point, therefore handgun hollow point would have the potential to cause a significantly larger temporary wound cavity than the .223 (which is very small in comparison) that would pass straight through. hollow point bullets of 9mm and above cause wound cavities all of which are deadly. The variables to bullet expansion include but are limited to shot location, bullet type and even manufacturer.
so the ban last I believe includes
all semi auto rifles with detachable magazines (does this include the smaller calibers like .22 and handgun calibers that happen to be in rifle form?)
if a rifle does not have a detachable magazine but still fires the .223 round either in pump, lever or bolt action would those be approved?
If a semi auto handgun with a detachable magazine is designed to fire the .223 round but has a 9 inch barrel would those be approved?
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@Snoopy
sure Maryland wasted over 5 million tax dollars with their bullet casing data base, which solved exactly ZERO crimes. I've never read where the serial numbers are all that useful, if at all, remember the government sent all those machine guns to Mexico?
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@dustryder
you aren't understanding the realities of the ballistic tests for yourself and just having faith in what you read because you agree with it.
The ballistic cavity formed from rifles is pretty shocking, but if you consider that handgun rounds, while maybe not as shocking is still more than efficient to achieve the desired effects. In other words what they are describing is "overkill" which is why they are used on large animals while smaller ones are not. This is why I say dead is dead. Just because the trauma may look worse the end result makes that irrelevant. On the rare chance that the rifle bullet is the deciding factor that is a rarity which you aren't interested in by your words about other anomalies or rarities.
Whatever difference you seem to think there is, is minor at best.
non hollow points tend to go straight through people, including rifle rounds. Hollow points on the other hand is what makes the large wound cavities including handgun rounds which is evident by the ballistic tests.
this is why I find little difference between the effectiveness of rifles and handgun in actual outcomes.
it is a direct result of bullet type and number used, everything else is minor.
so if you want to ban semi auto rifles, you should also want to ban semi auto hand guns for the very same reasons.
do hollow points have more potential to be lethal? I would say yes
do the more bullets fired have an increased chance to kill, obviously yes.
does that expand what you want to ban now? doesn't seem very logical if it doesn't based on what you have previously said, wound cavities and all.
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@Snoopy
that's extremely rare, they are heavily regulated, I'm not sure that has ever happened more than a couple of times, if that.
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@Snoopy
Why? Part of the background check is that you swear that are buying for yourself and not someone else. It's impossible to prevent straw purchases. They aren't generally punished very harshly away.
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@Outplayz
I don't know, the 2 muslins got theirs from the neighbor via straw purchase, don't know how the laws fall in the time line. But they used ar's to shoot up their work place.
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@dustryder
I'm sorry but I actually don't recall anything specific about handguns that would be banned. I'll look and post tomorrow, trying to do it on the phone is too cumbersome.
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@Outplayz
lol that's crazy, I would totally go to the store. I'm not sure the status of polymer 80% lowers but I'm in the process of looking them up. As a side note Gander Outdoors has Anderson aluminum lowers for $39.95 There's one within driving distance might go get 5 for that price.
upon a quick search the answer appears to be, yes
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@Snoopy
I've seen similar things you are describing but never looked into the legality etc.
I'm not sure what trigger restrictions could be made unless you totally ban semi autos. Like the bump fire, same effect with a rubber band, also on the youtube. That and other things were pre bump stock, so much for banning them.
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@Snoopy
There's a YouTube kid who has made a bunch of guns. Imo what would happen is they would make the bullets with the rifling like shotgun slugs, so the issue of barrels wouldn't be such an issue.
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@Snoopy
shotguns are just a hollow pipe so there's always that, google zip guns if you never heard of them
also check out ak-47 lowers, basically just bent sheet metal.
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@dustryder
I claimed that differing gun types differ in lethality and proved so with physics. If your claim that this is not true, then you must provide evidence to show this. I do not accept your shifting of burden of proof.
the fact that people have been killed with almost every caliber doesn't prove they are lethal? again more legal isn't a real thing, can't be proved in the real world, a shot in the heart, dead, shot to the head dead, sure some "survive" so to speak but those are very rare and usually have permanent damage.
so this difference you claim just isn't a real thing, maybe in video games or on paper but not in these real situations.
sorry but those links...well, are yet again subjective and biased for not including important details
Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet.
that's probably because he was using a target round and not a hollow point, they were lucky in is ignorance. Again check the ballistics difference between a round nose and hollow point bullet, caliber doesn't matter you'll get the point.
ar bullet going straight through
comparison of 3 bullet types from a 223 ar -15 round
2nd link
“This is not really a property of the rifle itself. It’s a property of the ammunition.
so like I said, not the gun but the bullet, thanks for that LOL
if you are going to hunt large animals you need more muzzle energy which is mostly a function of the bullet.
while you need that to kill a bear or elephant that's not required for something smaller like a person which is why the whole lethality is bs. in real world situations.
so you are technically correct which doesn't matter because we aren't talking about large animals and what is on paper.
The FBI and police departments generally carry 9mm hand guns, don't you wonder why? Do you believe they just shoot to wound like on tv? This choice was done from ballistic studies the FBI has conducted to reach this conclusion. So either they don't know what they are talking about or it's a very effective round. sure you could go bigger but why? You can hunt a rodents with an ak-47 but generally you don't because you don't need to.
so selective banning of semi auto rifles and not semi auto handguns just isn't logical.
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@Outplayz
you mean like every part?
if you do, not yet, but if the demand is there so will the means. There are some small companies like Red Jacket that had a tv show, they made the barrels as well, some of the other stuff probably was cheaper just to buy.
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outlaw the internet? 3d printers? metal working machines?
make his own gun because he couldn't legally own one then killed 5 people (mass murder)
traceable gun LOL you don't attempt to trace a gun until after a murder, then what good is the trace?
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people shooting hand guns for the first time
that is a beast of a gun btw
dam that dude is better than I am
keep you eye on the targets btw
dang, my skills suck
"in a short period of time I can become comfortable"
from the description and location of mass murders a large percentage take place at close range if not point blank range.
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@dustryder
in the laboratory that's true, what I'm asking is any proof at all that it somehow translates to real event, real situation and real world statistical differences.Physics do not magically change once you translate it to practical applications. That's why bridges function instead of magically collapsing. Again, if you have evidence otherwise, you can submit it and collect your Nobel prize.
so that's a no you can't prove that any specific gun type is more lethal when a person is shot in a vital place, ok, that's what I thought.
I've seen the data and I know you're talking out of your ass when you're claiming that these mass murders didn't have any of these extensions. As for what I mean by extensions, literally everything that you mentioned in your previous post are extensions.
you want to ban semi auto rifles, pistols by their very nature have pistol grips so it's not an "extension" since you want to ban all semi auto rifles those cosmetics are irrelevant to any significant advantage to those guns with out them, you've said so yourself.
what extensions did the hand gun mass murders have used these ban worthy extensions, same question you didn't answer the first time.
in post #120
Which just leaves at least semi-automatic rifles with a detachable magazine.
which is why I asked for clarification on what you consider "extensions" since cosmetics made no difference.
You took issue with pistol grips, and I have have no problem with excluding those.
if these aren't extensions aren't cosmetics then you need to explain what you are talking about
#198
I'm not sure on the specifics on why features were or were not included in the original assault weapons ban.Since you are adamant that cosmetic features cannot contribute this, and I think that this is also likely the case, such features to me are ignorable.
I'm trying to understand why you think semi auto rifles and semi auto handguns are so demonstrably different one should be banned and the other should not.
lethality can't be quantifiably measured that I know of, and you haven't shown that it can be.
Please explain why one is less lethal than the other (rifle vs handgun) because for the reasons I've given there is very little difference other than very specific instances.
Show me statistical real evidence that if person x had been shot with a handgun they would have survived.
How does banning them impact day-to-day use of those tools? If you were to ban laser sights for example, how does this make them unsafe?
you equated accuracy to more deadly, therefore you'd need or want to make the gun less accurate or remove accurate guns, which seems pretty unsafe for me for those lawful citizens who would be using them don't you think?
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@dustryder
The physics of guns and projectiles are fairly well understood.
in the laboratory that's true, what I'm asking is any proof at all that it somehow translates to real event, real situation and real world statistical differences.
That's why averages were used.
really because more than the average of mass murders are by handguns, I find that a bit ironic.
To what extent have recoil and muzzel flip been addressed in modern design. To the extent that both can be completely eliminated in a handgun without any other tradeoffs?
since it's subjective and individualistic there's no way to measure or quantify it. There are no trade offs in the improvements and ways they try to compensate mussel flip, which the vast majority of owners don't need or worry about, it's more of a cosmetic or novelty which is why they aren't standard or has a large market.
Then think of all the ways in which you could extend this gun to make it more lethal.
and yet the hand gun or other mass murders didn't have any of these "extensions" whatever that means, because you've agreed cosmetics aren't relevant in this topic. So far all semi auto rifles is in the ban, but I'm not aware of what you mean by "extensions" Do you mean anything that allows someone to use it accurately?
Because that would seem, well, rather stupid. If you are going to allow people to own guns having them be accurate is a safety feature as well as managing recoil or mussel flip. If someone is hunting, target shooting, self defense situations, you want that person to be able to use that tool, aka gun in the best and safest way. So you'd ban things that could allow that type of control over the gun? Doesn't make any sense to me, I'll need you to explain it.
give me a list of "extensions" that increase lethal potential but doesn't affect safety to the lawful user.
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@Greyparrot
Obama’s DHS Secretary: ‘We are truly in a crisis’ at the border"
Jeh Johnson
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@dustryder
I said that handguns are typically less lethal than rifles.
do you have proof or is that just opinion?
Less energy over less area is less damage.But there are practical differences as has been established
all opinion and situational
pretty trivial based on the reality and ballistic testing, dead it dead whatever damage you think can be equated is irrelevant to that fact. Being wounded has so many variables the #1 being location of the wound, there is no way to make any kind of statistical inference based on that because you can't predict who will be wounded and where.
modern designs have been and continue to address and kind of recoil/mussel flip, you are making way too much of it, again a trivial factor at best. If those are the the strong arguments for bans, they are pretty weak.
Saying "Here are a couple of cases where this is not the case" does not address the overall generalization.
but isn't that what you've done by focusing on mass murders via rifle? or not focusing on all gun murders?
I'm not following your logic for banning all semi auto rifles but not all semi auto handguns other than you think the key and notable differences is recoil and accuracy. Are those the only defining factors? Hand guns can be fitted with red dot, holographic sights, laser sights etc. the post of the pistol brace (roni) would mitigate recoil for the feeble that couldn't handle it, which is why they are an uncommon oddity. Probably plenty of diy things should anyone be so inclined, What about ported barrels, the expulsion of the gases go up applying a downward force to compensate for the muzzle flip. but again a trivial thing.
are you finally understanding why this is or would be a weapons ban vs what started out as an "assault weapons" ban?
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@Snoopy
Most of those can be applied to the guns that would be on the ban list, but the term legitimate use is subjective so to the pro ban people only their definition matters
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@Ramshutu
that mitigating it with a barrier isn’t practical or economical.
I'm not arguing that it is, I've plainly said it's and either or, either something is done, which I think we agree there are far more effective and better ways, better for the immigrants as well, a win, win, or nothing at all gets done worth a darn like in administrations past.
the funny part is I have been basically saying what you did for a while, fix the reason people risk their lives and their children and they won't do that, pretty simple concept, probably difficult to enact but it's something that should have been worked towards long ago. While it still can be it won't happen with the current political climate and it won't happen if a democratic president is elected, in fact I think things will be worse if one is elected, but that's a different topic I guess.
Obviously we do need barriers and security if for nothing else to hopefully minimize the drug and child trafficking but that too is another subject.
our preferred priorities are very similar I think, I just haven't heard any of those being an option right now :(
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@dustryder
standard handgun is likely to be less accurate, have more recoil and deliver bullets with less force than an assault weapon, despite both being semi-automatic.
you seem to ignore the mass murder done with a .22 caliber handgun, the smallest caliber, so that really isn't true in reality. It's just a scare tactic.
Which just leaves at least semi-automatic rifles with a detachable magazine.
right so it's a semi auto rifle ban now an expanded version of the 1994 Clinton ban.
but again there is little practical difference between a semi auto rifle with a detachable magazine and a semi auto handgun with a detachable magazine. But I believe you'd also ban or limit how many rounds a magazine could hold, you just never said what that number was, though I recall you thinking around 10.
standard handgun is likely to be less accurate, have more recoil and deliver bullets with less force than an assault weapon, despite both being semi-automatic. All these factors contribute to the ability to kill "at a faster rate".
I've addressed that and mass murders that have happened does seem to prove that true. there is practically no recoil on a .22 then there's a variety of calibers in-between the 22 and a 380 which again has minimal recoil it's also call a 9mm short, then the 9mm which is the standard for which all other handgun rounds are compared. Very easily managed which is why it's so popular, common and prevalent. Because again if you could time travel remove the rifles you can't predict in the majority of those shootings they wouldn't have just used a handgun.
except for Las Vegas these happened at close range so whatever perceived accuracy difference you think there is, isn't relevant in those cases.
you should really look up ballistic tests on youtube so you can know what you are talking about, check them out for 10mm, 45, 357 magnum, 44 magnum there's others but that should be enough, those are all handgun rounds, then check out the .223 I don't think you'd have any preference with which one you'd rather be shot with or question the legality of any of them. then look up the 9mm and you'll come to the same conclusion.
And once you do that you'll finally get to the point of banning all semi auto, which as I said way back is where you are headed but appear to not realize it yet.
you want to see some serious damage look up a 12 gauge shot gun slug.
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@Greyparrot
probably same kind of people who feel personal guilt for slavery. it's not a choice I would make, helping illegals vs homeless citizens etc, but it is a free country after all.
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@Ramshutu
I’m glad you agree that what is being built is a fence - and does not appear to be substantially more impressive than the barrier already there.
looks far better than what was or wasn't there, looks substantially better imo, but it is an opinion after all isn't it.
as promised by Trump isn’t being built
do you only listen to the first things people say? he said on video if they wanted to call it a fence with slats he was fine with that, which is what I saw in the pictures and video. just sounds like semantics to me.
What will happen if Trump builds a wall, or a big beautiful fence; is that these individuals will walk through a completely different type of gate.
sure if that's an option to do so, but my understanding was to eliminate that possibility as much as they can. I recall that in some areas nothing is needed because the terrain is a natural barrier. Rome wasn't built in a day.
why they are crossing, what are motivating factors
irrelevant, the law is clear.
oh no, make no mistake I have made posts before that if the countries the people were coming from were 'encourage' or otherwise supported to make changes and address their issues, that would give people less reason to risk their very lives to enter the U.S. illegally. Not many want to do that and leave everything and everyone they have ever known.
Getting to the very heart of the issue, the countries they are coming from, has never afaik been a priority for any administration. Which asks the question why not?
I think through political and economic/trade these countries could be 'persuaded' to make live better for their citizens, as they should. guess I got off on a tangent there.
The irrational focus on the symptoms, rather than the actual problems,
that greatly describes many of the people who have been in power for many decades in our government.
the primary way to alleviate the problem is to work with and integrate policy with heavy Mexican involvement
agreed, he should and it should have happened decades ago.
neither side seem or have seemed to be willing to address illegal immigration in all it's forms, in any meaningful way, and for the reasons I think we agree upon, you'd agree with that statement wouldn't you?
so what's left? the promise of more border security in the form of physical barriers. that is why I said "Because of the political climate we are at a point on border security where it's all or nothing."
no one is offering any other options that I know of, or it's not being covered by the media.
What better choice can I get on board with and who is proposing it with any seriousness and support? Even if the barriers are being built that doesn't mean the other things we talked about, the other ways people are in the country illegally can't be addressed as well, and yet........
do you understand why the fact that he is at least doing something is why people support it? vs. the nothing that has been done for decades.
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@Greyparrot
yes their messages seem to be a lot of scare tactics, gloom and doom. hadn't really thought about that. If we don't do x people will die is the new motto that I hear.
Anything positive only involves illegals, entitlements and the lgbtqblahblah/trannies even then it's so they don't die or prevent them form dying. Obviously the death rate hasn't gone up or is statically different after the healthcare tax/mandate went away plus whatever else was done, otherwise they would be parading that all over the biased media.
this is why they oppose border security and for some they would remove it entirely. What better group of people to manipulate and control then dirt poor immigrants, all they have to do is vote them into power.
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