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@dustryder
Don't you guys have open state borders which would in part negate the efficacy of state gun control laws?
not really because responsible gun owners obey laws, those that don't we call criminals. But more to your point, yes pretty much any law can be circumvented and often are......by criminals.
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@3RU7AL
who's saying the wall is a perfect solution?
I believe you are.
I've been clear which doesn't jive with your assumption, that's on you and I don't need to explain anything further, nor do I feel inclined to address your wrong assumption more than I already have.
What problems do you believe a wall will solve?
nothing can solve the problem, all anyone can do is try to minimize it.
Please clarify your position on the matter.
"imo one of the best physical barriers would be M-tards idea of building a canal from sea to shining sea, or a "wall" of constantine wire fence, high and wide. But as I said numerous times, security is no one thing."
"The issue is multifaceted....."
All I hear is "build that wall" and "evil criminals and drugs and stuff".
I suggest you get your hearing checked or address the voices in your head, I have never said any such things in the context you are attempting to portray them in.
If you aren't going to read what I have already typed this conversation is over.
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@3RU7AL
cool
01/23/2019 11:21 AM EST Updated 01/23/2019 01:14 PM EST
so was it ever proposed or what was the outcome? They talked about all the things they were going to do, but what did they actually do? What's the bill number where can I read it?
imo one of the best physical barriers would be M-tards idea of building a canal from sea to shining sea, or a "wall" of constantine wire fence, high and wide. But as I said numerous times, security is no one thing. Even your quotes, "least effective" is an opinion and admits it does have an effect unlike your post #51 which you list all the ways it would have no effect.
you try to paint this argument that supporters or Trump is claiming a wall is all that is needed, but that's just not the fact. The issue is multifaceted and I don't know anyone who has said otherwise, do you?
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@n8nrgmi
actually it says no such thing, because I did read it, I'll try to break it down for you.
"What role do gun control laws play in these statistics? It’s difficult to say. One news report that compiled these same CDC numbers on firearm death rates, by 24/7 Wall Street and published by USA Today, listed several reasons besides gun laws that these states might have high rates of gun deaths (suicides included). Many of the states also have higher rates of poverty, lower educational attainment and perhaps more rural areas that make getting to a hospital in time to save someone’s life difficult.
correlation, not a causation. And the homicide rate statistics don’t show the same pattern. Eight of the 10 states with the highest homicide rates and eight of the 10 states with the lowest homicide rates all got “D” or “F” grades from the Brady Campaign analysis.
We have written before about gun control issues, and the inability to determine causation between gun laws and gun violence. As Susan B. Sorenson, a professor of social policy at the University of Pennsylvania, told us in 2012, “We really don’t have answers to a lot of the questions that we should have answers to.” And that’s partly because a scientific random study — in which one group of people had guns or permissive gun laws, and another group didn’t — isn’t possible.
An August 2013 CDC report looked at rates for gun homicides in the 50 most populous metropolitan areas. It found that for 2009-2010, the top gun murder rate areas were, in order: New Orleans, Memphis, Detroit, Birmingham, St. Louis, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Philadelphia and Chicago.
Six of those cities are in states with poor scores for their gun laws, while the other four get a “C” or better. Chicago, which placed last in the top 10, had a ban on handguns at the time. There’s no discernible pattern among those cities, nor clear or convincing evidence in these statistics that shows more gun laws lead to more or less gun crime."
now you want to backtrack as to which one of us didn't read it?
Do you care about actual number of deaths or just percentages? Because it matters imo.
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@3RU7AL
is anyone saying that any barrier is a stand alone option and doesn't need patrolling plus other security methods?
who's saying the wall is a perfect solution?
while I may have digressed about illegals and tax money, that's all it was, now back on topic.
your personal interpretation and injections of what has not actually been said is getting tiresome, please refrain from doing it anymore.
TUNNEL DETECTORS DON'T REQUIRE A WALL. I am 100% in favor of a detection grid. As are most democrats.
is that true, I don't recall hearing a counter proposal for any such thing or a willingness to allocate money for them, cite?
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@3RU7AL
it's in the title, it's about stopping people getting in, you moved them by talking about deporting the illegals already in, stick to the topic.
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@3RU7AL
this isn't an all or nothing issue, to claim it will have no effect is untrue.
MS-13 members enter the U.S. illegally, which proves gang violence isn't only a problem in Mexico, so again that is untrue.
Walls work that's why they are used in prisons, mansions and other places that people want protected.
You do know the biggest Democrat loud mouths who don't want border security were in favor of it when Obama was president, right? Pull up Pelosie and Schumer on youtube and hear the very words that come out of their mouths about barriers and border security, as well as what they say about the illegals. They have walls around their homes.
those who listen and are honest know even Trump says more than just walls are needed.
Border patrol agents, who probably know more about the realities of anyone say better barriers are needed.
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NICS check rejections and reasons for
about 1.6 MILLION who can't purchase legally have tried to do so, how many of those have been arrested? maybe we should enforce laws that already exists?
the term "mass" shooting is made up and numbers are changed to fit whatever narrative, why wouldn't total number of people killed in a year, weekend, whatever be the most important stat? If a state has the lowest "mass murder" rate but 10x more people are killed per year than any other state, which stat is more important?
how do any of these stats correlate with mental health, drug abuse, drug sales, gangs etc?
Once one accounts for the average pre-existing differences in homicide and suicide rates across states and the average annual changes in those deaths from year-to-year, stricter gun laws are associated with more total deaths from homicides and suicides. increasing the index of the gun laws in a state by 20 percentage points (about one standard deviation) is associated with an increase in the total death rate (homicides plus suicides) of 0.4 per 100,000 people.
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@3RU7AL
this is about stopping illegals from coming in, the national emergency is about border security and or a wall, not deportation.
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@IlDiavolo
I'm not gay, but yes Italian. Point is the type of joke or group the joke is based on isn't really important imo because any group can be made fun of. Having confidence and self control keeps people from reacting to them.
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@Greyparrot
hmm these people seem to think it's an emergency
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@3RU7AL
not from the economic people I've listen to, which explain how it's a drain, yet the ones who has it's a benefit have no real figures to support that.It's not a "drain" on your income. They are saving you money every time you buy a house, rent an apartment, or buy food at a grocery store or restaurant or pay for a cleaning service.
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@Greyparrot
guess they aren't as bad as the "legal" migrants in Europe LOL
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@3RU7AL
Do you buy fruits and vegetables?Do you eat at restaurants?Do you live in a house or an apartment building?If you do any of these things, then you are supporting immigrants and benefiting from their cheap labor.
your right, the punishment should be more harsh and e-verify should be mandatory for all business and increased fines, punishments for violations.
I don't really care about them working so long as they are paying proper taxes, it's the drain on my tax money that I don't like and should be stopped.
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@3RU7AL
correct that isn't illegal, entering the county w/o permission is, hence the term illegal or criminal alien, which one can't become until they actually enter the country illegally.
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@3RU7AL
words on the Statue of Liberty isn't law.
for the last time, you asked for citations and I provided them for you.
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@3RU7AL
you must have some gift you should share with the world if you can tell which people are legally seeking asylum or whatever vs those who have other motives.
"Many who made it to the ports of entry along the border were met with tear gas and rubber/bean bag bullets, if not live ammunition as it was reported in some cases, when they attempted to storm the border."
"One such ridiculousness was demanding that the Mexican government provide them with transportation to the southern U.S. border because “they were tired of walking.” No joke, this actually happened. Another thing they did was critizice the meals they were given at the temporary shelters; rice, beans, tortillas and whatever meat serving was available that day. Something traditionally common in a humble Mexican household. These immigrants wanted Domino's Pizza and individual two -liter bottles of Coca-Cola. Again, no joke."
"Rescued: Seven kidnapped children that traffickers were carrying in Caravana Migrante"
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@3RU7AL
No? the coyotes and traffickers, that's all legal? It has always been illegal, but the size of the groups have certainly changed. What about the criminals trying to get in with the caravans? Don't think there's a single one? no traffickers either?
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@3RU7AL
again you failed to invalidate what you wanted citation for.
A caravan in April was funded by Pueblo Sin Fronteras (People Without Borders), which is a project of La Familia Latina Unida, a Chicago, Illinois-based 501(c)(4) illegal immigration advocacy group.
funded and organized, just like I said. have a nice day.
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@3RU7AL
...better organized AND funded "caravans".Citation please.
which I provided
"Requesting asylum requires a person to be physically present in the United States, but it also involves presenting oneself to law enforcement and government officials, meaning the goal in those cases would not be to deceive or defraud the U.S. government but rather to work within the existing system."
and how does that invalidate that the caravans aren't better organized and funded?
"Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. and the American Immigration Council. Guess who’s funding them? … none other than radical leftist billionaire: George Soros."
same as above
So first you scare-monger. MURDER-HUNGRY-RABID-DRUG-DEALING-FENCE-JUMPING-CRIMINAL-BAD-HOMBRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
where did I make any such claim or statement?
Then when that turns out to be PROVABLY FALSE (undocumented immigrants are statistically LESS likely to be criminals than native born citizens) THEN you demonize and dehumanize LEGAL refugees seeking LEGAL asylum by accusing them of being pawns of some presumably purely evil benefactor.(IFF) George Soros has committed a crime (THEN) charge him with a crime.(IFF) George Soros (or anyone else for that matter) chooses to spend money to assist LEGAL refugees seeking LEGAL asylum, then that is their god given right.
and how does that invalidate that the caravans aren't better organized and funded?
And by the way - the "black hate groups" quote is FALSE according to your already cited snopes. [LINK]
da fuk you talkin about?
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being offended is a choice, Italian jokes don't bother me because why would I give a fk what strangers say? their opinions are meaningless to me, how or why should it be otherwise?
To see how hyper sensitive we've become I would refer you back to the T.V. show "In living color" and watch some of that. Also Key and Peel. And like @Alec said it's free speech.
You have a choice to be offended or not.
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@Greyparrot
surprisingly he has yet to pick up on the fact that I don't respond to him, yet he continues to tag and reply to me, how might one describe someone like that.......so many choice words.
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@3RU7AL
do you think they are spontaneous like benghazi?
how far could you carry a child with not money and whatever food and water you could also carry?
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@n8nrgmi
do you agree the government should have a food stamp system? do you think the government should not allow companies to pump as much mercury which is a serious toxin into the streams? what agencies do you think should exist? do you like the existence of social security or medicare? or medicaid for the disabled? these are just examples. i know trump and many conservatives might not be against food stamps or social security, but if these are liberal or conservative issues, they are liberal.
food stamp system yes, but not how it's currently designed and implemented.
dumping toxins etc should not be allowed, should have never been even though it was and the damage is irreversible in some places.
social security should have an option for individuals to manage their money themselves. People should be enabled and encouraged to provide for their own retirement, this does not apply to the disabled.
Medicare like all healthcare should be an open market and across state lines etc, I remember a story long ago a bunch of retirees in Fl grouped together and got a very good group deal on health insurance. But that's extremely complicated, a more cash pay system would lower costs for us all.
The truly disabled need help. I'm not sure who would disagree with that.
no one can be all or nothing with a party and still claim to think for themselves.
absolutely true.
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@n8nrgmi
I don't know what they are about except for socialism and people control, maybe you can list some specific things you think we may agree with.
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@Greyparrot
so it begs the question, why not approach these measurable problems individually rather than some esoteric umbrella statement, not like you can force other countries to comply w/o the threat of bombs. The money wasted on "climate change" "global warming" which could have been used in meaningful and productive ways for cleaner air and water. Other than a way to keep people divided I see no use in their focus and terminology.
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@Greyparrot
the term is a red herring and fear mongering imo, hence the controversy and arguments, let's make it more plain and address what needs to be addressed. Remember acid rain? Crystal clear lakes because everything in them was dead. Air pollution is a real thing so is water quality, California has eight of 10 most polluted U.S. cities there's no real controversy with wanting better air and water quality I don't think. Since those things are harmful and measurable that should be the point of attack, which when addressed also addresses the red herring.
climate change is pure political b.s.
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@FaustianJustice
they rush gaps or easy to circumvent points on the border, not points of entry.
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one of the border tactics is to amass a large group and then everyone charges at once. knowing some will get caught and stopped not all will. it's not something you often hear about in the news but it has been a method used for a long while. now fast forward to the better organized AND funded "caravans". This is organized crime now, not just merely desperate people doing desperate things. I'd rather he find another way than declaring a national emergency. Though based on what's going on etc, i think a case can be made for it.
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@Greyparrot
Obama would have sent them pallet loads of cash LOL. He was a spineless weasel imo, talk about a beta.
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@Vader
This is a huge blow to Trump and to the base.
you think so? hmmm I don't know, they have stopped firing missiles, tensions are at an all time low. What other president has made as much progress on this issue than Trump? Just because there was no deal this time, doesn't mean there can't be one in the future. The fact that Trump has even attempted to solve this problem is a positive thing, especially when compared to past presidents don't you think?
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@3RU7AL
make such an inflammatory blanket statement is do to exactly what it has done, pit people against each other, spur arguments etc, hence it wasn't really an honest statement imo.
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@Ramshutu
because brain death = dead, hence the brain wave activity argument for when and what is live.
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@3RU7AL
never heard the term, but yes I do tend to look at things from a legal/law standpoint
plain yogurt of people LOL interesting video, thanks.
to that end, I think I've done more good than bad so far, though the scoring system is a bit fuzzy lol
people always do the best of their ability without purposefully and knowingly not doing their best. So to attribute some kind of blame to the point of calling everyone rapists and murders I find disingenuous.
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@3RU7AL
what you describe is the same as the original sin theory, which has not legal basis but is philosophical/religious and not political. I've purchased a car, but have never killed anyone while driving a car.
this blame or responsibility you are trying to attribute is just philosophical.
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@3RU7AL
as I said if you wish to dawn the label of murder, child abuser, rapist etc then do so. I purchase legal goods and services. My tax money is taken from me without any choice on my part. Machine guns where purchased and send to Mexico which the drug cartels got. I didn't vote for that idiot Obama who thought of this bright idea nor do I hold myself responsible in any way what so ever for the people murdered and crimes committed because of those actions.
Purchasing a widget from a company does not make one responsible for the actions of the ceo, company policies etc if they are not known or obvious. If you want to try and draw some kind of philosophical lines, that's the proper forum section, or the religious.
Now if you'd like to talk about those who supported people like Castro, or things like illegal aliens, illegal immigration, then yes they do so knowingly and willfully.
you can't name one thing that can't be linked back to something terrible, maybe 1 or 2 things, but not many at all. By your logic you are complicate as soon are you were born. That's fine for philosophy and religion, otherwise it's just pedantic.
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@3RU7AL
Yes we are accomplices. Please describe your hypothetical moral theory that absolves unwitting participants or contributors.
speak for your self, don't put your judgements and morality on me.
no I respect your opinion and would defend it, even if I don't agree or don't subscribe to it. You have every right to carry the label of murderer, rapist or accomplice to those and more, that is your choice. Many religious zealots espouse original sin, they should make peace with their own conscience and stop trying to force their beliefs on others who don't wish it.
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@3RU7AL
I have yet to discover any sort of moral system or theory that absolves unwitting participants or contributors.
that's because those are based on opinion and feelings, which is why you have to use the word "moral" rather than legal. Your beliefs are just that, yours.
The Romans invented many things that we enjoy today and committed atrocities, flog yourself if you must but I don't carry any guilt, but you certainly have the right to do so.
that wasn't much of a dodge in not answering my direct question since you thought the statement was "well stated"
I am morally culpable for the suffering that I actively support, both directly and indirectly, both knowingly and unintentionally.I am morally culpable for the historic suffering that I benefit from, both directly and indirectly, both knowingly and unintentionally.
do you consider yourself to be a rapist and murderer or an accomplice in those acts because of how you spend your money?
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Every time I buy petrol, I understand that I am contributing to the capricious and tyrannical regimes that export oil. Does this mean I will stop driving? Of course not. Does this mean I will apologize for driving? Of course not.
no of course not, it's what rapist and murders do apparently (which is the start of this and what I took issue with) do you consider yourself to be a rapist and murderer or an accomplice in those acts because of how you spend your money?
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@3RU7AL
The point is that if people always buy whatever is cheapest, like mindless robots
this is true on a great number of levels including why obesity is such a problem. You can expect people to make good choices for others, when they don't or won't do it for themselves and their children.
Family and myself are the highest priorities and I make no apologizes for it.
as to the rest, I find little value and productivity in the blame game.
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@3RU7AL
Do you believe that giving money to people who commit crimes and atrocities makes you complicit?
if done knowingly, intentionally, perhaps.
Do you want to use your money-vote to promote slavery or human dignity?
to a small degree sure, but since my budget is such that I have to spend wisely and make it go as far as possible, my decisions are adjusted accordingly.
Would you buy groceries from a corner store if you knew the owner was also an atrocious notorious criminal?Would you buy groceries from a corner store if you knew the owner was treating their workers and supply chain humanely?
I would buy from whom ever had the best quality, safest product for me and my family. If all things being equal, then the latter.
the free market is the solution and I think we agree on that, but that does take time and lots of other conditions to benefit the workers, the abusive conditions are allowed by both the free and controlled markets in certain countries. Change never happens as quickly as we would like, but it is happening. If the socially conscious companies grow and thrive, that will speed up the change, but not in countries like N.K. Give me a comparable product to purchase that is socially conscious and I will purchase it, give me a choice.
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@3RU7AL
I thought I made it clear that these people will have to fend for themselves. Just like the people of Cuba.
I don't necessarily disagree with that and what I have been taking issue is the reference to everyone being rapist and murderers for supporting those companies, even unknowingly. and you...... "well stated"
If you take those jobs away and let the people and children fend for themselves even if they starve to death is that better or worse than the original accusation?
people being exploited for they labors vs left to fend for themselves with no job or money, which would you chose?
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@3RU7AL
I rarely buy new, only when it's a extremely good deal. Most of my stuff comes from 2nd hand stores.
you seem to say if those companies are boycotted other companies that treat their employees better will rise up in those countries. Is there any evidence that will work? Because if it doesn't that would be putting those poor people with no job or income at all, which I think we agree would be worse for them, if there's no other opportunities.
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@3RU7AL
while the welfare to work was a good theory the implementation was predictably half assed, no surprise there.
how do you control companies in other or working in other countries, it's the "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" kind of thing. the U.S. could invade or overthrow the current government and replace it with a democratic republic, wouldn't that benefit the citizens in the best and long term way?
obviously no one really cares enough to go to that extreme.
I need (as opposed to a want) clothes, what manufacture produces clothes that are 100%, fabric etc socially acceptably produced? And lets keep it real, I would never pay $150 for jeans for example.
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@3RU7AL
I guess what I'm asking is given the government structure of these countries I don't see a realist way consumers can have a positive net effect. It's a catch 22, those people would be worse off w/o the crappy wages and jobs. Are there actual businesses in these countries that are better in any appreciable way? Since there are poor in every country, the U.S. citizens should only buy U.S. products until everyone isn't poor.
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@Greyparrot
that Tee shirt is pure gold. Heard she's getting like a 10 million movie deal, dam capitalism.
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@3RU7AL
here's the thing it's not the responsibility of the U.S. to save the world, other countries tax the fk out of imports basically forcing it's citizens to buy their own good
how would buying products from Venezuela help their workers or are their workers paid and treated adequately? How about Mexico?
term limits for congress, all elected positions
I was quoting AOC aka Nostradumbass
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@3RU7AL
do you think the people who work in terrible conditions for low pay would be better off if we didn't buy their products?
(the world ending in 12 years was a joke btw)
term limits #1
tariff and trade all need to be on a level playing field, say what you will about Trump but alt east he's trying to do something compared to the nothing that has been done.
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@3RU7AL
So, do you purchase products and services exclusively from manufacturers who follow these rules?
nope, but I don't have control over what other countries do or don't do.
Chanting, "bring our boys home" does absolutely nothing to change the underlying brutal system that causes these types of problems in the first place.
voting or revolution, take your pick.
the government shouldn't do anything to assist the disadvantaged.
what are suppose to be "safety nets" are now entitlements, addictions, way of life.
you don't trust charities and wealthy philanthropists to step up and take care of those in needed? but you trust the government to do so? yeah some are scams, the government is incompetent blah blah blah but the point stands, people were taken care of before these programs existed. The Amish don't typically use any of these services so it can be done.
what happens in other countries, is it the fault of the ones taking advantage and the ones allowing it to happen, I'd say more so one than the other. Regardless I'm not Mother Teresa and I don't think anyone here can make that claim either.
I wasn't around in (1912–13)
the rich run the world that's how it is and they mostly don't care about anything else, any poor people in the U.S. government? any considered middle class that have been in for 20+ years?
I do try to buy products where the workers are treated fairly etc whenever possible, I don't by Nike brand for instance. If you watch Shark Tank the free market (capitalism) is allowing entrepreneurs to create business based on many things that "give back" to the workers or society. This is becoming a trend and will continue to grow so long as the government doesn't stop it with regulations and other ways to manipulate the business.
the world is ending in 12 years so wgaf?
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@3RU7AL
Do you believe that employees should be treated fairly and have a basic right to safe and humane working conditions?
aren't there already laws that provide that? osha? labor department etc.
how does that cause "murder, rape" ? and how many murder and rapes are you responsible for?
Please explain.
his claim that people do nothing to change the situation is wrong, people protest like they did during Vietnam for instance and currently to get the U.S. out of foreign countries/wars Trump was elected (that was one reason anyway)
do you want to abolish social security? Do you want to abolish corporate welfare? Do you want to abolish farm subsidies?
trying to ween the government addicts takes a lot of time and effort, just like most addictions, but first they generally have to hit rock bottom. but yes those "programs" should but phased out and the control should be given over to the individual to run their own lives.
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