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@Shila
Jesus even said he was sent only to save the Jews.Matthew 15:24Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God's lost sheep—the people of Israel.”But that did not stop the Christians from stealing salvation from the Jews.
Christians did not steal salvation from the Jews.
The very first Christians were Jews. And there are millions of Jews who have become Christians over the centuries. According to the history books, Christianity was considered a Jewish Sect by the Romans for many decades after its commencement.
The ironic thing about Matthew 15:24 is that Jesus made that statement using the word "only" and immediately in the context helped a gentile lady and her daughter. If Jesus' statement is to mean anything - then it must also be able to incorporate that fact as well.
The point is God gave salvation to all those people who are of the "Israel of God". It is for persons who have circumcised hearts, not necessarily circumcised foreskins.
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@Shila
he Jews as a nation never had a copyright over the OT or the NT. Luke wasn't a Jew. Job wasn't a Jew. If you can find who has the copyright, then I will help you pursue whom to give the money to.There are many Jews in Heaven and many Gentiles. That's a good thing, I think.The Bible is made up of 66 books. So except for Luke and Job the rest of the Bible were written by Jewish authors. Yet the Jews were not awarded any compensation for their contribution. Even Trump cashed in on Bible sales.
I notice you didn't provide any evidence of a copyright. Interestingly enough, most of the NT writers were Jews who converted to Christianity, And were Christians when they wrote the NT. So there were no Jewish non-Christians who wrote any of the NT. And the Christians will all receive their rewards in heaven. Indeed even as the writers of the OT will too. So in fact your statement that the Jews were not awarded any compensation is nonsensical. Rupert Murdoch owns Zondervan, or at least he used too. Some have suspected he is a Jew.
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@Shila
The Jews kept the covenant with God and to this day perform circumcision. in return God promised to take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.They even crucified Jesus to help him fulfill the prophesies his death would bring.
Circumcision was just one part of the covenant. It expressly stipulated loyalty to God. To obey all his commandments. They didn't obey all of the commandments.
Killing Jesus wasn't part of the covenant. Nor did they have a clue that killing Jesus would fulfill prophecies. In fact they would deny that was the case since they deny he was the Messiah.
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@Shila
What God would do for a piece of foreskin? The Jews know how to drive a good bargain.What will God do for the Israelites if they keep the covenant?The basic covenant is that God will take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.
Yes. But they didn't obey him did they? They followed idols, and other gods, and then they rejected his Messiah. And So God executed the part of his covenant to do with the curses. And so God destroyed the Temple. And it has never been rebuilt. The heart and soul of the Jewish religion died in AD 70. And two new Jewish cults sprang up.
The older brother - the Christians/
The younger brother - the new Jews after the pharisees.
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@Shila
Yes, and that is why God judged them and destroyed the temple. That's the story of the book of Revelation.The Jews need to repent of their rejection of the True Messiah and embrace the saviour of the world.
The Jews were never credited for helping Jesus fulfill his mission by crucifying him and making him God’s sacrificial lamb.
It was God's plan of salvation to use sinful humans to fulfil it. If there were no sinful people, then there would have been no need for salvation. Yet, it is the greatest irony that God used Mans' rebelliousness, sinfulness, and stupidity to bring about the salvation of humanity.
Why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?Our sin has to be punished and “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). So, there had to be death to pay the penalty for sin and blood had to be shed. Hebrews 9:22 says, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
That's the whole point of the Gospel. Death, everlasting death is the consequence of sin. And so everyone must die eternally, unless, there is a satisfying death. Jesus, the Son of God, divine, and innocent was that sacrifice and atonement for those whom God has given faith to believe. Everyone else who doesn't believe will suffer this everlasting death.
The Bible was written by Jews both the New and Old Testament. Even though millions of bibles have been sold. The Jews never receive a penny for their copyright.What about the Jews willing to share heaven with other uncircumcised gentiles?
The Jews as a nation never had a copyright over the OT or the NT. Luke wasn't a Jew. Job wasn't a Jew. If you can find who has the copyright, then I will help you pursue whom to give the money to.
There are many Jews in Heaven and many Gentiles. That's a good thing, I think.
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@Shila
so therefore for you to say that people can just believe is a nonsense. There needs to be a work in the heart before the person can believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Hearing is more than just listening with your ears - it is in the same line of thinking that Jesus meant when he said - "he who has ears to hear will understand". People need spiritual ears.All God demanded of the Jews to form a covenant was a circumcised dick. Which is much further down than one’s spiritual ears.
Not surprising to see how quickly you lower the standards on this topic. Circumcision of men in the OT was required to demonstrate loyalty to God. It wasn't the only way to form a covenant though. Covenants are quite varied in their formation.
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@Shila
It was the ordination of Jesus as priest, and possibly king and prophet.Jesus is rejected in Judaism as a failed Jewish messiah claimant and a false prophet by all mainstream Jewish denominations. Judaism also considers the worship of any person a form of idolatry, and rejects the claim that Jesus was divine.
Yes, and that is why God judged them and destroyed the temple. That's the story of the book of Revelation.
The Jews need to repent of their rejection of the True Messiah and embrace the saviour of the world.
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@Shila
Like every Jew - he washed religiously. Morning - dinner - tea - before meals. Etc. To say he didn't is falling down a rabbit hole - that doesn't exist.Jesus only let water touch his body once at the age of 30 and that was during his baptism by John.How did Jesus keep his body clean based on his advice to his disciples?John 13:10 Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.”
Argument from silence. In other words, a very weak argument, especially given the traditions of the day. Jesus didn't intentionally break traditions unless they were at odds with the grace he was bringing.
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@Shila
Faith doesn't earn us salvation. It doesn't give us salvation. But the person without faith will not be saved. It is a gift. You are saved by grace through faith. And that is a gift.Of course everything is possible for a person who believes. But for the person who has no faith or does not believe - it is not possible. And in your view - a person without faith cannot suddenly become a man of faith by himself. He needs the Spirit of God to regenerate him and give him faith. And then he will believe.To begin with you have to have belief in Jesus.What do we need to believe about Jesus?What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus?This means acknowledging that he is not just a good teacher or a prophet, but rather he is the Savior of the world who came to give his life for us. By believing in Jesus as the Son of God, confessing and repenting of our sins, we can experience the forgiveness and salvation that he offers.What did Jesus teach about faith? By simply believing in Jesus everything is possible.“Everything is possible for one who believes.” (John 11:25-26) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.How is salvation granted?According to the Bible, all humans are born with a sinful nature and are separated from God. However, through faith in Jesus Christ, we can be saved from our sins and reconciled with God. This salvation is described as a gift from God that cannot be earned through good deeds or actions, but only through believing in Jesus.
The problem dear Shila, is that the unspiritual person cannot understand spiritual matters. Therefore the non-believer cannot suddenly believe or acknowledge anything about Jesus that is spiritually discerned. I could tell you or try and explain it to you all day long, but you wouldn't believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world.
To repent of your sins means you must believe you are a sinner. You must believe that God is greaved by Sin. You must understand that sin puts you into a situation that separates you from God. And indeed in a place that makes you incapable of understanding that you have sinned. the non-believer doesn't believe sin is a real thing. They don't believe it makes any difference. They believe that if God would put people into hell for sinning, then God is an idiot. Or a war mongerer or stupid or hateful.
so therefore for you to say that people can just believe is a nonsense. There needs to be a work in the heart before the person can believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Hearing is more than just listening with your ears - it is in the same line of thinking that Jesus meant when he said - "he who has ears to hear will understand". People need spiritual ears.
You don't have spiritual ears. You have no idea what you are spouting. To believe in Jesus means you must reject EVERY other religion and every other god. To say you can believe in all of them - proves you don't believe. For if you believed, then you wouldn't make such a simple mistake.
Acknowledging is more than just saying a few words - it is a change of doing things. I do pray that God will change your heart. But presently you lack spiritual discernment.
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@Mall
Jesus was baptised to full all righeousness. He had no original sin. He had no personal sin. He was born of Mary and of God.
The Only OT law that relates to a water ceremony, a 30 year old man and a levite, John the Baptist was a levite priest was the ordaining of priests. This is why Jesus didn't need to baptise John , his father probably baptised him, as the normal process of becoming a priest, or some other priest.
It was the ordination of Jesus as priest, and possibly king and prophet.
His baptism was different in the sense of the purpose. The form was the same.
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@Shila
How many times did Jesus touch water?Jesus was baptized in water, walked on water, and turned water into wine.Why? Because Jesus didn’t want to get wet again. He showed his fear of getting wet again after his baptism when he walked on water instead of swimming. Then turned water into wine.Jesus came to join His disciples. He was walking on the water to get to the boat. Matthew 14:25. disciples watching Jesus from the shore.
Jesus touched water many many times. He kept the law - jot and tittle. No one could accuse him of breaking it - in relation to the ceremonial law.
Like every Jew - he washed religiously. Morning - dinner - tea - before meals. Etc. To say he didn't is falling down a rabbit hole - that doesn't exist.
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@CatholicApologetics
Hi there,
Nice topic.
I think you have handled this question reasonably well.
I liked your quick explanation of the Trinity. And also in connection with sin.
I'm intrigued by your thoughts on freewill which is part of this question posed. And also your definition of it.
Are you of the same mind as Augustine whom you quoted above in relation to original sin? And if you are, how is it then that you say people are born with a free will - while maintaining their sinful nature? Isn't it true that the Catholic Church teaches that such original sin is negated or washed away with baptism? If that is your position, would you hold that people who are not baptised, do not have such free will?
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@CatholicApologetics
Hi there,
Nice topic.
I think you have handled this question reasonably well.
I liked your quick explanation of the Trinity. And also in connection with sin.
I'm intrigued by your thoughts on freewill which is part of this question posed. And also your definition of it.
Are you of the same mind as Augustine whom you quoted above in relation to original sin? And if you are, how is it then that you say people are born with a free will - while maintaining their sinful nature? Isn't it true that the Catholic Church teaches that such original sin is negated or washed away with baptism? If that is your position, would you hold that people who are not baptised, do not have such free will?
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@Shila
Faith doesn't earn us salvation. It doesn't give us salvation. But the person without faith will not be saved. It is a gift. You are saved by grace through faith. And that is a gift.
Of course everything is possible for a person who believes. But for the person who has no faith or does not believe - it is not possible. And in your view - a person without faith cannot suddenly become a man of faith by himself. He needs the Spirit of God to regenerate him and give him faith. And then he will believe.
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@Shila
What did Jesus say about being born again?In the New International Version of the Bible, John 3:3 reads: Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” In the New Living translation, the verse reads: Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”What does it mean to be born again in Jesus?Born again is a phrase used by many Protestants to describe the phenomenon of gaining faith in Jesus Christ. It is an experience when everything they have been taught as Christians becomes real, and they develop a direct and personal relationship with God.A born-again Christian is someone who has repented of their sins and turned to Christ for their salvation, and as a result has become part of God's family ...
You keep putting the cart before the horse.
How can someone see the kingdom of heaven if they haven't been born again? When one is born again by the Spirit of God, then their eyes are open to believe and repent and follow Jesus. One cannot believe something one cannot see. One cannot repent for sins that they don't believe they've committed. One cannot turn to God or to Jesus if you don't already have the Spirit to believe. It is the work of the Spirit to regenerate us. And then our eyes are opened and we can see that we are sinners and need to turn to him in repentance. As Acts tells us - to them God granted repentance.
Faith is the result of being saved - or being regenerated. It is a gift of God to the individual. A gift that causes them to believe. Salvation belongs to God, it doesn't belong to us. God saves us. We don't save our selves. You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of the historic church. And putting yourself outside of the church and its teachings.
You need to read Augustine, Luther, and Calvin. Read the Council of Chalcedon Creed. Your position is the same as Pelagius. Someone declared by the historic church to be outside of the church and a heritic. It is at odds with much of the American culture of Christianity. It is because it is not based on the individualism of the West, but on the covenantal culture of the Middle East.
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@Shila
Repeating something doesn't make it true.
Repeating something without adding something just affirms that you are stuck.
Jesus said, and let me quote him, unless you are born again, you will by no means see the kingdom of heaven. That clearly demonstrates that the Spirit regenerates the person - before they can even see - let alone believe. So you need to refute Jesus and then we can discuss further.
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@Shila
The apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. First Corinthians 12:13 declares, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”
Did you see who was doing the Baptising? And did you see who gave us the Spirit? This verses isn't saying what you think it is.
Now how about you address some of my points and stop wasting your and my time?
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@Shila
At what point does the Holy Spirit come into a person?According to the New Testament, a person receives the Holy Spirit immediately upon believing in Jesus Christ as their Savior: Ephesians 1:13-14: "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"How do you get the Holy Spirit to enter you?The only thing necessary to receive the Holy Spirit is that you must have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Once you've confessed Jesus as your Savior, God gives you the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). You don’t have to be a certain denomination, or be a pastor or evangelist to receive the Holy Spirit. Whether you have been a believer for 50 years or five minutes, you can receive the Holy Spirit right where you are, right now.
We don't get the Holy Spirit to enter us. He's God. He's not on a string. John 3:5-9 tells us that the Spirit goes where the Spirit desires. Not where we desire. He's like the wind. It blows where ever it pleases.
God is not a man. God is sovereign. Ephesians 1:4 actually says God chose those whom he would save before the beginning of the world. Those whom he predestined.
So again, you need to stop putting the horse before the cart. Faith is a gift of God. It is not the cause of salvation. We cant just drum up faith to believe in God. And part of the evidence for this truth is seen on this particular forum question. Look at the answers of those who are not Christians. The truth wouldn't convince them. That's what they all said.
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@Shila
Romans 10:10 doesn't say that a person receives the Holy Spirit the instant they truly accept Jesus. You are putting the cart before the horse.
We are regenerated first, that's what Jesus says. That means we are born again, or as the Greek says, born from above. That is, the Spirit of God is poured into our hearts - BEFORE we believe. Belief is the fruit of our salvation, not the cause of it. You fall outside of the historic church on this issue.
You deny the doctrine of original sin.
Oops.
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@Shila
How can I become a Christian?This is the best part. Because of His love for us, God has made it exceedingly simple to become a Christian. All you have to do is receive Jesus as your Savior, fully accepting His death as the sufficient sacrifice for your sins (John 3:16), fully trusting Him alone as your Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Becoming a Christian is not all about rituals, going to church, or doing certain things while refraining from other things. Becoming a Christian is all about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ, through faith, is what makes a person a Christian.
You're right in some respects. Becoming a Christian is not about rituals, going to church or doing certain things. But more than that - it goes much further. There is nothing you can do to become a Christian. That's the whole reason Jesus came to die on the cross - because there was nothing we could do. Believing in Jesus is something we need to do - but it's not the cause of salvation, it is a fruit or a gift of salvation. It is only after we have been regenerated by the Spirit of God, that we can believe, or as Jesus puts it, even see the kingdom. John 3:3 and then John 3:5.
Are you ready to become a Christian?If you are ready to become a Christian by receiving Jesus Christ as your Savior, all you have to do is believe. Do you understand and believe that you have sinned and are worthy of judgment from God? Do you understand and believe that Jesus took your punishment upon Himself, dying in your place? Do you understand and believe that His death was the sufficient sacrifice to pay for your sins? If your answers to these three questions are yes, then simply place your trust in Jesus as your Savior. Receive Him, by faith, fully trusting in Him alone. That is all it takes to become a Christian!
Believing is not just understanding and agreeing. It goes further than that. The Demons according to James 2:19 believe. They probably have perfect theology. But THEY Are not saved. James qualifies what belief is - it's not just a head knowledge. It's a belief that entails all of you, Body and heart. The inside and the outside. You see, the Greeks liked to distinguish body and heart. The body for them was evil and the heart or the spirit was good. Yet the Bible says that the human soul is both body and heart together. And the body is not evil, though it has become sinful. Like the heart it is sinful. And the body will waste away. But then we will be given a new one.
In your response you forgot the most important aspect of Salvation and of what makes a person a Christian. And that is the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit of God, you cannot be a Christian.
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@Shila
What it takes to become a Christian.Commit your life to Christ.And in response, commit your life to following Christ, and enter into a relationship with him through prayer, Bible reading, and worship. We come to know and love God more through the Holy Spirit, who enters our hearts when we commit our lives to Christ.With this definition, you have free will in choosing Christ if the ultimate cause of the choice is your own self-determination. So, the point is the word ultimate here. There may be a lot of factors that share in determining your choice of Christ. But only one of those factors is ultimate or final. Free will on this demands that you be that factor, not anything else, including God. God is not the final, ultimate factor in the choice. You are.Here is another way to say it: You have free will when your will is the decisive cause of your choosing Christ. And the word decisive has the same function as ultimate. There may be many causes that influence your choosing Christ. But for you to be free, in this definition, the decisive cause — the one that finally decides your choice — must be your will, not anyone else’s will, including God’s.
You didn't even read what I wrote, did you? If you did, you didn't understand or comprehend it.
The Traditional Christian position is that humanity since the fall has been born with original sin. That sin means ALL humankind is born into the estate of sin and as slaves to sin. That means when it comes to spiritual things they are in bondage and not free. There are three basic positions of salvation.
- Universalism: that is everyone is saved. No church has believed that position at all. There are some small groups and isolated cults that hold to that position.
2. Pelagianism: that man is born good - and essentially can choose to say yes to God and try and do good works. This position was condemned in the early church and has been considered heresy. It denies original sin.
3. Augustinian position. This is the position of the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Reformed Churches and even many of the Dissident churches. That man is born with original sin and is in bondage to sin.
Pelagianism is the forefather of what is known as semi-Pelagianism and somewhat a forerunner of Arminianism. The latter holds that despite being born with original sin, that God sent prevenient grace to circumvent that original sin and enable people to respond to the gospel. It is somewhat what you are suggesting above. Roman Catholic Churches now suggest that this is what baptism does when you baptise infants. It is prevenient grace to enable to them to respond.
Calvinism, Reformed theology, and Lutheranism, after Augustine, hold that God regenerates the sinner - and gives them the gift of faith.
There sadly is a reliance on libertarian free will - versus the meaning of free will in the Bible. the former suggests that man can choose God or to become a Christian because they can freely choose anything. Biblical Free will insists that - although people have the free will to do whatever they want to do - this doesn't mean they have the free will to do what they ought to do. My illustration about the bank robber above demonstrates that quite persuasively. Spiritually Dead people can do nothing to make themselves alive spiritually. It is a work of God.
The entire issue of free will to become a Christian is a Western Concept. It links coming to God like a marriage. And in doing so, it misses the culture within which Christianity was born. The culture in the Middle East - for marriage is arranged marriage. It is not an individualistic arrangement for love. It is an arrangement determined by the family or the parents for the good of the family.
It also misses the fact that slaves to sin, like slaves in the real world, do not choose to become free. If a slave is sold from one master to another master, it is the decision of the masters or the owners. It is never the slave who decides.
It misses the understanding of the covenant. And we could go on.
People can't choose to become a true born-again Christian. It's an impossibility. People are saved by grace through faith. And faith is a gift. Believing something or saying words - is something even the demons can do- words are not enough. It is an entire submission of the entire body. And that sadly, doesn't happen because we all want to be masters of our own destiny. Masters of our own fate. We want to be gods. To decide for ourselves. That is why it is impossible. And since these things are spiritually discerned, and you are not spiritual. Not truly spiritual. A spiritual person is a person who has the Holy Spirit. Not just someone who dabbles in what they think are spiritual matters. And I am using the Biblical definition here, not the ordinary one by secular persons or even persons of other religions. And I'm doing that because we are talking about Christianity and the Bible, not religion per se.
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@Shila
It is true - and people can't choose to become Christians.Where in the Bible does it say how to become a Christian?Romans 10:9-10 says: "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
Yes thanks for quoting that text.
What you seem to be missing is the fact that human nature always determines the response of man to God.
Think of it like this way. God is holy and humanity is sinful. that's what the bible says. You yourself referred to man being evil. Jesus said the same thing.
Human nature - wants to fight or flee. That's the spirit of humanity. To fight or to flee. It is not what Jesus indicated - turn the other cheek. Which is neither fighting nor fleeing. It is not to repent of one's sins and admit and concede to the punishment coming.
A bank robber leaving a bank - sees a police officer. What should he do? He should put his bag of money down, and his gun and hand himself in. What will he do? He will fight or he will flee? That's human nature. To surrender is the last thing he will do - and only if it is a sense of survival. But survival is not repentance. It is an end to suit yourself. It is the bad guy pleading guilty to avoid a longer term of imprisonment. It is being sorry he got caught, not that he did something wrong.
The Bible very clearly says that the unspiritual man doesn't understand spiritual things. He can't know - unless the Spirit reveals it to him. 1 Corinthians.
Hence, the verse above - indicates that God must give people faith - for them to believe. We can't just drum it up ourselves. And confessing with your mouth is easy - but believing in your heart is another thing. Jesus warned against those who - say Lord Lord - because he says he never knew them.
For the human heart to be changed - requires the person to be born again. That comes first - and then they can believe. And then the person who utters and believes knows for sure that they saved. That's the gist of the passage above. Jesus put it this way in John 3. when he was speaking to Nicodemus. Unless one is born again - they can't even SEE the kingdom. Let alone be saved. Regeneration is a work of God. It is not something that humanity can do for himself.
Hence why I continue to say to you - Shila or Harikrish or whoever you are - and why I continue to challenge you - prove to me you can make yourself a Christian. DO it - and prove me wrong. prove the Bible wrong.
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@Best.Korea
Evil happens because of sin. It's cause and effect. Not because it's deserved.Okay, go ahead and prove that evil isnt deserved.
I did. I explained it was the result of cause and effect. Evil in my view is the absence of good. But essentially, it's the result of a cause.
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@WyIted
They are literally back in Israel as kind of an escape hatch. They destroy a country and when everyone realizes it is them they run to Israel. Like literally just stay in Israel or don't destroy your host nation, it's that simple.He'll Israel even openly takes pedophiles and protects them. Do the country is literally so they can go commit crimes and still have a safe haven
I don't follow the politics in Israel. I think though, that you'll find that on average, it probably has a similar proportion of good and bad people as the rest of the world.
In Australia, we have a sizeable Jewish population. I don't see them as being worse or better than anyone else. Recently, it was their synagogue which was firebombed. A couple of years ago, it was several churches. Last year, a mosque was attacked.
The current crisis in the Middle East has stirred up a lot of emotions. I don't see it in the streets though. Predominantly, it remains in the domain of the media; although there have been several protests. None of which I have observed. My family doesn't really talk about it. At church we pray for the conflict to resolve. We pray for comfort for those who have lost loved ones. I haven't taken sides, even though, one of our elders is a Christian convert from being a Jew. His family have cut him off. But he's lovely. He still practices many of his Jewish cultural traditions and provides significant insight into the Bible.
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@Best.Korea
Okay, so, it goes like this:1. All humans are bad humans2. Bad humans deserve evil things to happen to themC. All humans deserve evil things to happen to themSo when something bad happens to person, its because person deserved it. Thus, all evil in the world is actually good because evil happens to evil people. It makes sense.All good God has to punish evil and make evil suffer. Not sure why people complain. They are all evil.
Jesus doesn't need defending. Especially with shoddy logic.
Evil happens because of sin. It's cause and effect. Not because it's deserved. If someone shoots someone with a gun, there's a fairly good chance they might die. If someone can't control their lustful behaviour, there's a fairly likely possibility that they might do something they will regret to someone who didn't deserve such behaviour. If you drink too much you will get a hangover. Cause and Effect. Sometimes deserved, sometimes not. We can't escape the world unless we die.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Suddenly tradesecret is back. He's heard the siren call.
I never left. I just have others things to do.
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@Reece101
You’re not an end-times supporter?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that comment.
If it is asking whether I believe the world will end one day? The answer is yes.
If it is asking me whether this is going to happen soon? The answer is not likely. (Although I will qualify this by saying I haven't been told a date)
If it is asking me whether the current situation in Israel is predicted in Revelation? I would say no.
I take the view that Israel as a nation today is the result of the United Nations, The League of Nations, who felt sorry for them after WW2.
I don't believe that they are back there as a result of God bringing them back. Every time in biblical history, that Israel was removed from the land, the only way back was to repent of their sin against God. That was always the first step. The reason they lost the land of Israel, most recently, was because they had rejected the Messiah. God took it off them in AD 70 - destroyed the temple and the sad fact is that they have never repented of their sin.
They're back in the land, not because of God, but because of the UN. Hence, not in accord with the Bible's prophecies.
Are we in the last days? Personally, I think we have a long way to go. The West might end. The East might too. We might have numerous world wars including nukes, but none of these things determine the end of the world absolutely. And certainly not judgment day.
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@CatholicApologetics
Christianity is true. However, the Bible indicates that no one can simply become a true Christian. Yes, anyone can choose to join a church. They can choose to call themself a Christian. But this doesn't make them a true Christian. The Bible indicates that it is the Holy Spirit who makes people Christian.
So whether it is true is not really helpful. Unless of course, it was a choice to become a Christian. Yet, given that it is not a choice, then the question only really serves as a judgment.
It is true - and people can't choose to become Christians.
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@SocraticGregarian96
It depends on how you define Jews.
Is it a religion?
Is it a nationality?
Is it something else?
In my view, Jews are a religion. Israel is the nation. Not all Israelies are Jews. Not all Jews are Israelies.
As for liking or disliking them:
Some reasons people - not me - have put-up:-
They are more wealthy on average.
They are more disposed towards Communism on average.
They are more intelligent on average.
They are less generous on average - compared to the Scots, the Dutch, and the South Africans
Wherever they go they take their wealth and their politics.
Their religion used to be exclusive. Not so much anymore.
Some people blame the Jews for killing Jesus.
Some people blame the Jews for taking their homeland, the Palestinians.
Some people are just racist. And bigoted.
Me, I am not anti-semitic. I am not pro-Jew or pro-Israel. But nor do I want to see them decimated. Mind you, I do have a desire to see every person become a Christian, even the Jews.
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@Shila
In the time of Jesus, some people were slaves because they were born to slave parents. Others were captured in war and were forced to become slaves.
In the time of Jesus, the Romans were the ones running the known world. Yes, the people they captured they made slaves. At that time, many Jews were scattered all around the world as slaves - because they could read and count. That's an interesting part of history too. The Jews were people of the book or scrolls, and so every male could read, mostly by the time they were 12 - do you recall a thing called Bar Mitsva? Even females were encouraged to read. The percentage of them however is something I couldn't indicate.
Since in the time of Jesus, the Jews weren't the ones in charge, it is hardly likely that OT rules and laws would be applied. And in fact we know that the way the slave system worked in Jesus' time, was basically the Roman one / Greek one - the polytheistic religious position. In the OT, the laws applying to children born into slavery was different - and people were not allowed to kidnap others. And while in the OT, it is true that many people in war became slaves, that was a better alternative to death. Remember the Geneva Convention wouldn't appear for thousands of years later.
Judaism is closed because if you’re not born and raised Jewish, you’re strongly discouraged from converting, unless you marry or are adopted into a Jewish family–and even then there are requirements for the process.
That just is not the truth. Many people become Jews. They did in the OT, they did in the NT. And they still do today. My nephew was recently dating a Jewish girl, and they were to be engaged, but he was required to become a Jew first. Rahab became a Jew. Ruth became a Jew. The OT provides the covenant process of adoption for people to become Jews. Were there requirements? Of course there were. To join any club, there are requirements. That stands to reason.
And as for strongly being discouraged? What are you talking about? No one ever wants someone to leave their own religion and join another. And on the other hand, we don't want every Tom Dick and Harry joining our religion. that's what gives religions a bad name. When someone can stand up and say I'm a Christian, but you don't actually know what you mean by that - it's just silly. Jews would be the same. The discouragement is to ensure that only those who are serious do join. In other words, those who care that the religion is more than just a club.
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@CatholicApologetics
Catholicism already plays a role in the Secular world. It has op shops. It provides assistance to the poor and the sick. It has hospitals, schools, and other services.
The question in my mind is not whether it plays a role, it is whether it plays a beneficial role?
And how does one determine that? Do we use the utilitarian measure? A secular measure? Or do we use a non-Secular measure - such as the one Jesus used when he said "there is no one Good but God"?
As a Presbyterian, I can acknowledge the history and good of the Catholic church in its early history. But I can also note its atrocities towards the Protestant Church and the Dissident Churches, let alone the way it treated the Orthodox.
Our WCF labels the pope as the Anti-Christ. And although I think the WCF is not absolutely correct here, the Catholic System is more polytheistic than it is montheistic.
And it's system is from my perspective flawed which has been exposed in many forms. Having said that, the Presbyterian System is also flawed and it has too been exposed as such. No human system is perfect.
Still, I think the Roman Catholic church has a part to play in our world. It's not going away. It is far too large to die. Yet it may be true to say that is crumbling from within. But that's another story.
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@Lemming
"the jubilee. In Israel - ALL Slaves were to be released after 7 years. that was the law. Effectively their time of slavery was an indenture - a type of mortgage. that didn't happen in other countries. To buy your freedom was unheard of - for many years."Did that apply to 'all slaves,Or only slaves who practiced or adopted Judaism?
It's a great question. The interesting thing is this, though.
- In the first place, it exposes the inconvenient truth that not ALL slavery is permanent.
- In the second place, it exposes that not all slavery is EVIL. In fact it played a good in that time and place where people couldn't get ordinary short-term loans.
- thirdly, it placed a high value on membership. It's not to disimilar to organisational clubs, banks, and businesses which give valuable rights to those who join.
So the answer to your question is - yes, it applied only to slaves who practised or adopted Judaism. And given that anyone could join Judaism - and the OT is full of people who did, then you were only excluded if you chose to be. The question for many would be - is the God of the Jews fairer and more just than the gods of their ancestors? And I reckon that objectively many thought that the Jewish God was. And many others thought otherwise. In many ways, it is no different to our world today.
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@Owen_T
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV):If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim? That is messed up.
It's actually quite an advanced and merciful solution to the problem in that time and age. The OT law is not condoning rape. It here is - whether you believe it or not- seeking to address a great crime against the rape victim in an age where ordinarily in every culture in the world, the rape victim was treated less than human.
There was no welfare in those days. None. Females were essentially vessels. And this was the same the world over. Men worked. Men made the money. Men had the power. And in most countries and sub cultures - rape was not an offence. In most cultures rape was a right. The only redress most women had if they were raped was if they were already married - and then their husbands could seek the death of the rapist. Provided of course that the rape occurred in ordinary life and not during a time of war.
That's the picture you need to think about when considering this passage. You need to understand the culture of the entire world at the time. Women who were raped - especially single virgins, were left to fend for themselves. Many became prostitutes. All were considered less than human.
The passage above was a law that actually made it EXPENSIVE to rape someone. It would cause the rapist to think twice before raping someone in Israel. He became responsible for the girl's welfare for the rest of his or her life. This was unheard of in the ancient world. There was no commandment that the raped victim - even if she was married would have to sleep with the bloke. If she decided she wanted to live at her father's house - the rapist couldn't stop her. But he still had to pay her maintenance for the rest of his life. The father of the victim girl could also refuse to let his daughter marry the rapist. You didn't quote that verse. But the rapist would still have to pay for the girl for the rest of his life.
the point is- the law hit the man where it really hurt. In his pocket. It was expensive to commit rape. None of the nations around Israel had any protection for the victim.
This also for the Christian is a law that relates specifically to Israel. It doesn't extend to the Christian - except - in the sense that Christians MUST support laws that protect the victim. Not the perpetrator.
There is also some stuff about slavery. Take Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV):Anyone who kidnaps someone and either sells them or still has them when they are caught must be put to death. Anyone who kidnaps a man must die. Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a result. However, if the slave recovers after a day or two, they are not to be punished; for the slave is their property.Right from the word of god: people=property. Don't tell me that literal god had to bend his command around the acceptance of mortals. He's god. Also, even if you weren't going do condemn slavery, why do you have to validate it?
It's a philosophical question of course - about ownership of a person. DO I own myself? Do I have the right to do with my body as I so choose? And how far does that extend? I mean - the basic understanding of a bundle of rights - can it apply to the human body? If I truly own my own body, can't I sell it to someone else? Can I sell my liver or my kidney or my hair? What about myself? Can I sell my body for sex - prostitution? Can I sell it to someone else - for the labor - so I can get paid? Can I sell my body completely with all my rights for the right price? And if not, why not?
2000 - 3000 years - slavery was normal. It was moral in EVERY culture in the world. The passage you quote above shows something quite interesting though, doesn't it? Most slaves in those times - were the result of being kidnapped. People would come - and steal. This also is how many people became slaves in America. People would kidnap people from villages in Africa and sell them.
Israel however - although it certainly accepted the view that people can own themselves and even sell themselves - did not agree with theft. They didn't agree that someone could be kidnapped to become a slave. And that's what you see above. that was unique in the time of this writing. It was miles ahead of where people thought.
Notice too the insight about being beaten. Interestingly, that's still part of our law today in some respects. If you hurt someone - and they don't die immediately it is not as significant if they die straightaway. the other thing most people forget when condeming the Bible about slavery is the jubilee. In Israel - ALL Slaves were to be released after 7 years. that was the law. Effectively their time of slavery was an indenture - a type of mortgage. that didn't happen in other countries. To buy your freedom was unheard of - for many years.
Then, there's the minor genocide god oversees in Joshua 6:21 (NIV):They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.What did the babies do?! Generally god at least spares the virgins for the men to rape after they killed their families.
It's not really genocide. Although clearly it was a command to kill every living thing - including animals. The animals thing is interesting, isn't it? It shows something significant doesn't it? It wasn't about looting another village. It wasn't about taking their wives to plunder. It means something AWFUL must have happened for God to make such a command.
It's interesting you focus on those who are put to death - rather than for what occurred that made God make such a command. You talk about the babies - and while that certainly is important - what must have the adults done that was so bad - that God would make such a command to kill everyone and wipe them off the map completely? And you might conclude - that well - there's nothing that could be that bad. And that of course would be a subjective assessment - since God had a different view.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (NIV):When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.And of course, these people are going to go to heaven. They got permission from god to do these things, whereas atheists completely deserve eternal torment for keeping an open mind.
People who win battles plunder. That was how things happened back then. There was no Geneva Convention that people had to subscribe too. And more than that - what would the captured people be expected to do - and how would they live? They would have the choice - of being a slave, being a wife, or being put to death. You tell me. - what would you prefer?
You consider these bad laws. But in the time - they were the most generous and merciful laws of the day. Do they compare to our day? I don't know. I think for many of us - they would be far better laws than what we have.
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@n8nrgim
the be more precise, the pope isn't infallible. you have a certain logic that jesus is infallible and thus the church is by extension as both are the body of christ. however, the church is only infallble when it's consistent with jesus. no church, protestants, catholic, or orthodox, teach consistently such that they can be said to be always infallible. the orthodox church might be, but how they define their authority and submission elements aren't defined very well and are open to interpretation and there's lots of contradicting teachings, depending how you define it. maybe the catholic church could be said the same thing, but only if it dropped the obviously false teaching of infallibility .
But now you have opened the door. You agree that the church is infallible when it's consistent with Jesus. So the question becomes: is the church ever consistent with Christ? And if so, then it is infallible. Hence, to ask to drop an obviously false doctrine would imply that the church is NEVER consistent with Jesus. And that I propose is a pretty big call on your part.
What is the standard for determining whether a Church is consistent with Christ or not? And how should we know that such a standard is itself a correct standard that we can absolutely - (infallibly) trust?
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@Best.Korea
Tao uses simple words everyone is familiar with, yet no one can understand them because Tao's secret is such that it tells things people dont want to hear, thus people dont hear what Tao says.
Do you mean like, if you reject Jesus, you reject God?
Tao is like the Sun which benefits all.Doesnt Sun help both good people and evil people?
The sun is beneficial at times. And at times, it is not beneficial. That's why we have day and night. Because it wouldn't be beneficial to have the sun heating EVERY part of the world EVERY moment.
Tao can be in unity with anything because Tao benefits everything.There are no words which can describe Tao, since no words which describe it can be heard by the people.
I wonder if you realise that you are using WORDS to describe Tao, even when you are saying they can't be used? It's a little bit like saying, there is ABSOLUTELY no such thing as an ABSOLUTE.
People read Tao Te Ching, yet they dont understand a single sentence.Such is Tao Te Ching. It is written only for the select few who understand it.Its secrets are open only to those who know how sentences and logical connections work.
Ahhh - the secret few. The elect. The special few. Gnosticism. The secret magic ritual of the Secret Gospel of Mark. Mysticism.
In other words, it is unscientific. Irrational. And therefore nonsense.
Tao uses simple words, yet the people are blind.Tao will always win, because people dont know what Tao is.
Winning is not everything. The ends don't always justify the means. In fact to always win also means to also always lose.
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@n8nrgim
I'm not catholic but to determine whether it is infallible requires certain understanding doesn't it?
After all, what is infallibility? What makes something infallible? Who determines it?
Isn't the Catholic teaching that the church is the body of Christ? That's probably the teaching of most of the church too.
Isn't it also the teaching of the Catholic church that Jesus is the head of the church?
So if Jesus is the head and the church is his body, aren't they the same?
Hence, why wouldn't it be true to say that the Church is infallible if its head is Jesus and Jesus is infallible?
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@Best.Korea
How do you know its simple if NO one can understand it? I presume that no one includes you.
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@CatholicApologetics
Out of curiosity, what reasons are stopping you from adopting religion? Specifically, what is it about Christianity that deters you away?
Is Christianity a religion?
I know it seems to be a no-brainer, but is it really?
Certainly, under some definitions, it's a religion. And if we don't want to use our brains and simply accede to the dogma of the times, I guess it falls within the definition.
It is a worldview that believes in a deity, a supernatural being, a principle, etc. Obviously, under that particular generality, it is a religion whereas say - science can't be.
Many Christians deny that Christianity is a religion. Perhaps they are all wrong? Who knows? Who cares?
Personally, I think Christianity is BOTH a religion and non-religious. Yes, it fits within the secular definition of religion, but it doesn't fit within EVERY definition of religion. Like the Hindus or is it the Buddhists, it would claim to be - a way of life. Does that mean it can't be a religion? Probably not.
Some Christians say religion is any worldview where the people within are looking to find God or nirvana or peace or whatever. This might include science, if it's purpose is to find truth for example. Interestingly, that might include Atheism. Atheism is a movement, (that's a good word isn't it?) that says there is no god. Or perhaps that there is no evidence for God. One might opine that this position implies that they are actively looking for evidence of a god. The fact that they can't find any, doesn't prevent the idea that they are looking. In fact, for them to stop looking for such evidence would either imply that they have comprehensively resolved their position or that they have stopped because they are lazy or have found better things to do.
I wouldn't adopt any other religion except Christianity. I wouldn't adopt secularism either. And the reason for this is because I like to think and use facts and purpose. Scientific facts and intuitive facts, and facts of experience and reason. Legal facts too. Philosophical facts as well. And statistics. Yes, I love statistics.
I wouldn't adopt all forms of Christianity either. I agree that some really are just shadows of the real thing. Many forms of Christianity have moved away or drifted from Christ's original intent. Of course, the one I am involved in has its own share of problems too. Yet, within the mainframe of Christianity, there is significant truth. It's why I can worship with many parts of Christianity, even if I don't agree 100% with them. But there are parameters as well.
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@Owen_T
Despite Christianity's talk of religious prosecution against them, atheists are the most hated group of people in the U.S, acording to Pew research center.
It's the atheists who run Washington. And there is much railing against Religion. Not just Christianity, but every religion. If you are in a group whatever that might be, and that group, runs the world. And makes the laws. Then it is to be expected that others will be unhappy about that if your rules and ideas and morality conflicts with theirs. It's not rocket science. I am an Australian by the way. And in Australia, Athiests are held up by the governments as the most wonderful, and objective patrons of the world. Religious people as being unscientific. (I noticed below similar hate sentiments against religious people.)
I recently came out as an atheist to some people in my social web. I was thinking that nothing would really change. These people knew that I cared about morality, that I donated to charities and spent afternoons volunteering.
Coming out as an Athiest. Wow! I can't quite get my head around that notion. Although Religious people are still the majority in Australia, it's certainly decreasing. Atheists have for many years been stating they have morality and care about the world etc. I acknowledge that is true. I don't think Athiests are Amoral. For me- it is really a question of what kind of morals.
It turned out, I was wrong. Not only that, but these people, (who I am somehow vastly more biblically literate than) had nothing but the most stupid arguments to defend their beliefs. Things like "you're just angry at god," and "Well now you're going to go to hell." There were also a lot of insults to my intelligence.
I can't speak for the people you are referring to. Or their motivations. there are many religious people who demonstrate a lack of ignorance of their religion but conversely, there are a lot of Atheists who don't understand their worldview either. I am sincerely sorry that the words thrown at you have insulted you, have made you feel upset. Stupid arguments exist on both sides of the discussion.
I'm not opposed to Christianity. I'm just shocked how hateful this community built around love is.
I think Christianity is a religion of love. For me the question is what is love and how is it demonstrated. Many people today, who are not Christian, or who are not Conservative Christian, consider - anything the Conservative Christian says to be hate, even though it is not hate from where the Christian is coming from. Let me give an example. In America, so, I've been told, there are the Fanatical Baptist cultic churches - who claim to be Christian who - write stuff such as - "God hates Fags". And other hateful things. In my mind, this is hate speech. It is wrong. And to be honest it demonstrates in my view, that they are not Christians for they haven't understood the gospel or how God wants us to treat people. (Yes, I know, people will say - of course they're Christians. Or how convenient that you say these are the haters, but the fact is - the Bible tells us - by their fruits you will know them and not everyone who calls themselves a believer is one. We have entire books devoted to what we call wolves in sheeps clothing. and the reason is to protect ourselves from people who falsely claim to be Christian and yet are divisive and hateful, and have agendas to split the church) On the other hand, we do have Christians, who wish to speak the truth in love, and who believe that the way the Bible describes marriage and relationships is godly. And they want to live in that sort of world, and they want their children to be raised in that kind of a world, and their motives are not to hate, but rather to educate and to help. Those in a secular world are very happy to educate those they consider superstitious or incorrect in thier beliefs and they don't consider that to be hate speech just because they disagree.
I've been to lots of Atheist websites which debate or confront religious people. And honestly, many of those sites have been very viscious and nasty. It is not something that somehow is mutually exclusive to any one group. But therein is one of the reasons for my own belief. People have a tendency to be nasty if they don't get their own way. Adam Smith - called it self interest. I call it the human nature.
The Christians on this stie are quite open minded and well versed on your beliefs. Can y'all please talk some sense into your peers.
that's quite a generous thing to say. I am always trying to talk sense into our peers. I would respectfully request a reciporical plea for you.
As much as it pains me, I'm going to keep lying about my faith to my friends in family. The disrespect and I have received from Christians is unbearable.
I am sorry you feel you need to hide yourself away. For the record, Christians and other religions do this too. As much as like to think we are tolerant society, it's simply not true. Again, I am sorry for the disrespect you have received from any Christian. And I hope it never happens again. But it will - just like I will be disrespected - possibly even on this topic of yours. Of course, it will be surprising to see if others can see that - or if others will acknowledge it. I think in our day and age, that if someone thinks that others are disrespecting others, then they are fair game to be disrespected as well. Personally, I think that is not a Christian moral position, but more of a modern progressive value.
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@IlDiavolo
thanks for confirming you can tell the difference between David and me. And that was the truth I was referring to. and that's all I was referring to.
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@IlDiavolo
Alright, I'm going to address you as Mister Tradesecret. But remember, you're a mister now so I expect you to behave like a man.As of the other thing, I was just curious, I didn't say anything more. Don't be so jumpy.
Don't call me mister either. And I will act however I please.
I'm not jumpy - I know what the truth is - so I know there is no reason for jumping.
And Let's not make this personal. Just think for yourself - and don't get sucked in by those who want to make it about themselves.
On that note, I apologise for suggesting or calling you a twit. It was uncalled for on my part.
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@IlDiavolo
Yeah, curious too that you respond after Ms Tradesecret's reply.
Firstly, why is it curious that anyone posts after me? Secondly, I am not a Ms. Thirdly, if you think I am the other poster, then ask the Moderators to investigate and have me banned if they conclude that I have more than one alias.
So back to the question of Twit. Yes, you seem to qualify.
Oh wait - did I deny that I was DavidAZZ? Hmmm. Not on this page. Now what does that lack of a denial mean? Good question.
It could mean anything?
Mostly it means that I did not deny it here. Of course I might have denied it elsewhere - but then again, I'm not sure that it would matter if I denied it or not. After all, what does a denial actually mean?
I mean, aren't you Best Korea?
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@IlDiavolo
I've always thought that you are a twit but I have to agree with you at this time.
I care less whether you agree with me or not. And I care even less if you think I am a twit.
But the subject of discussion needed addressing, so I did.
Would it make any difference if I thought you were a twit? No, I didn't think so.
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@IlDiavolo
I think everyone knows that Israel is technically commiting genocide on Palestinians. It doesnt matter how evil muslims are, there is no justification for that so I'm not going to discuss it here.What I want to put into discussion, though, is the way Christians approach to this topic. This is what you're going to see all over the Internet, Christians cheering the jews to keep up with this butchery instead of condemning such horrible attacks only because both religions share the same "God" and some beliefs, but when it comes to other religions all of a sudden they start to remember there are human rights.I dont know about you but this is called double standard wherever you are. That's why I always say that religion and politics resemble one another, they suck.
Interesting theory. But it's so overgeneralised it defeats itself.
Christians all over the world, the West, the East and the Middle East all have different perspectives on this subject. Gee, turn up in Australia to a Uniting Church and the Palestinians are correct and the Israelis are Evil. Walk down the street to a dispensational Baptist Church and the Israelis are right and the Palestinians - are evil.
Luther and Calvin and a heap of the Reformers, along with the Roman Catholics, have long been accused of being anti-Semitic.
It's an issue that is divisive, not just in religion but in the Secular world as well. All over the world in fact. Just as it is here on this forum page. And among those who are not committed to any particular religion.
Me, I think the issue is complex. Israel is killing lots of people. Hamas should just let the hostages go. I think the League of Nations made a powerful mistake in 1940 - to give Jews land in the Middle East. But it did and now the world has to live with this decision. I don't think it was a fulfilment of Scripture, although many Christians do.
The Jews were mightily persecuted during WW2. Hitler's NAZI regime was evil and so are followers of him today. It is not a Christian organisation - since it intentionally tried to destroy the church and has nothing to do with Christ. Using religious words doesn't make it religious. Yes, I know Hitler was a choirboy. So what? It doesn't mean he followed its teachings or promoted them. Fascism and its evil twin brother - Communism are competitors. Both are vying for the monopoly of the world.
Christians are divided on this issue essentially as a matter of doctrine. Interestingly, it's probably an eschatological one, and an ecclesiology one. You will find that Christians do have some sympathy with the Jews as noted by someone above because of its historic roots and connections with Christianity. Yet there are many Christians in Gaza among the Palestinians who are being killed too. Little is told of them because it's not politically helpful.
I think we should call out both parties. But Hamas ought to give back the hostages. Israel should accept that as a reason to stop. Hamas should let Israel live peaceably. Israel should permit the Palestinians to live peaceably. Should there a two state solution? Why not a three state one? Someone should persuade Taiwan to move all of its citizens to live between Israel and Palestine. That'd be interesting.
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@zedvictor4
So GOD is only superfair at times?Which implies, that at other times GOD is a superarsehole.Sounds more like human behaviour to me Trade.
Wow! I didnt realise your logic was so bad. But thanks for reminding us all.
Being superfair doesn't mean at other times he is a super.......@#$%.
God is just and holy. And good always. He justly punishes people for their sins. And he has mercy on others. It is fair to punish people for doing wrong. It is superfair to some to give them mercy. It would be fair to let everyone receive punishment. But it's nice that God is superfair to some.
That can be you too by the way. In fact Jesus put it this way.
For God so manifested his love in this way. He sent Jesus into this world, so that all those who believe in him will not die but receive life.
Hence, for those who believe, they will be treated superfairly. He will give them mercy. Not because they earned it - but because they recognised that they don't.
The rest of humanity, think God is a super @#$% - and so they think they DESERVE mercy if its on the table. Hence, they'll never believe. And then they will receive what is fair and just in the circumstances. Of course, they will argue and quibble - what else would you expect? But that's life and death isn't it? A matter of knowing that we are the sum of our choices.
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@Best.Korea
After all, would you want me to be upset over a choice you made freely and desired to make?I choose freedom and knowledge. Those who choose slavery and ignorance are not any kind of holy people. They are not even people. They are worthless brainless sheep. I am on the path of Godhood, a better path.
Yes, you choose your own way. And you think that is the right way and full of freedom and knowledge. That's a matter for you.
I too choose freedom and knowledge. And I think that ignorance is foolish. The slavery in our world today is abominable.
Holiness is something which the LORD commands us to be. I reject the idea that any human is less human than another. There are many sheep in the world today.
What makes you think you are on the path to Godhood?
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@Mall
I think God is JUST. I think that God is also superfair at times. He gives grace to the undeserved and mercy to those who don't deserve it.
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@Mall
Is forgiving of sins not just of God?
Only God can forgive sins. But he is not obligated to forgive sins where there is no repentance. And he can't forgive sins before repentance has taken place.
Furthermore, just because God forgives someone who has repented doesn't mean that humans can't punish that person for the offence they committed.
This is why in the Bible, it talks about both forgiveness and punishment.
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@Best.Korea
Think about Best Korea - on this forum page. he's written numerous posts about how he wants to end up in Hell and how he rejects the God of the Bible. Should I be upset that he gets what he wants or should I be upset that he's wrong?Usually, when people see their loved ones burning, they get upset. Maybe you don't have those human feelings.Anyway, I reject God because Lucifer has already told me that the God of the Bible is weak and defeated. Compare him to our mighty primordial God Leviathan, our mighty primordial Dragon who swallows the Sun and shakes the Universe.They are called primordial Gods because they existed at the beginning, in the primordial void. And were first being worshipped. It is true that Christians have for 2000 years hunted and killed those who worshipped actual primordial Gods.But just like the cycles, creation and destruction, witches were destroyed only to be born again even more powerful.And now we see Christianity sinking everywhere while Religion of the Dragon rises after 2000 years to claim victory. Lucifer gave people knowledge because knowledge destroys Christianity and other fake religions. Knowledge is a great gift of Lucifer.
Firstly, I never said I wouldn't be upset. I asked a question about what is the appropriate response. I'd appreciate it if you could try to understand what I am saying before jumping in and making conclusions. After all, would you want me to be upset over a choice you made freely and desired to make?
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@Mall
According to the scripture, God is just.
Yes.
He send you to the lake of fire for your unbelief while saving anybody that has murdered, raped or touched a child in their pleasing belief is saved is just and perfect.
Dumb reasoning. God lets people go to Hell because they want to go there rather than spend time with a holy eternal God.
God is not a murderer according to us. God has never justified abortion.
True.
He is totally justified in extinguishing babies or children.
God doesn't agree with people taking the lives of others without the proper and lawful authority.
people destroyed in Noah's flood were killed lawfully. It was a flood. Who controls the weather?
We can totally agree our ways, our thoughts are not his.
that's true.
He is just because he'll forgive you.
no he is just because he is just. He forgives those he wants to forgive. Typically those who have repented of their sins.
Is this your basis to be an antitheist or misotheist?
nope.
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