Tradesecret

Mr circular.

GODS don't define sin.

People define sin and attribute their definition to their particular GOD.

And gay is simply a modus operandi.

And marriage is simply associated bunkum.

And one takes it all as seriously as one is conditioned to take it.

Do you think homosexuality is a choice? 

That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 

You told me to observe the world. The world (all of known existence) functions independent of any intervention from a god.

How are you concluding there’s a god (specifically the Christian god) from just looking at the world? 

Math is as absolute as a person solving a specific problem (that we perceive) with specific math (that we formulate).

Dare I say, math is in fact socially constructed. Saying “math is absolute” is arbitrary.

Is math that solves a problem more efficiently, more absolute than prior math? I assume you’re synonymising absolute with perfect.

Does that mean at times God isn’t perfect? That’s what you’re doing right, equating God with math? 

I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  

She was one of Trump’s faith advisers in The White House.

https://youtu.be/I4daeEacIVI

If my dragon and your god are apples and oranges (fruit/religion) then what would you consider the Solomon Islands/reality?

No but seriously what’s wrong with testimony? I’m not trying to limit your thoughts on the matter. I’m evaluating them. If you feel ideologically threatened, don’t engage. Although it’s healthy to do so. 

so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.

And how do we survive as a social species? By doing good by one another. It fosters stability. 

Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. So yeah. 

The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 

I keep going around in circles? How so? 

I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.   

That was said about marriage? That goes to my point. 

Gay couples do adopt children don't they?

In spite of the Christian community. 

There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people.

And being gay is a sin, isn’t it?

There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible.

Blind hatred? God tells his followers to kill gays. Are you really trying to pull the victim card?

Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.

The wonders of modernity. 

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None what you’ve said comes close other than what you feel. 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 

How is math and God linked? Don’t just tell me how you feel.

I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 

It’s nice you would get help, but If you came across a Christian ceremony with someone speaking in tongue, it seems to me you would be indifferent.

What? I really believe a dragons in my garage! He also says the Christian god is a false god. I told him you wouldn’t like that but he insisted. 

And your point is ….

Within the context of social creatures, survival in an evolutionary lens is more complicated than just living. It’s figuring out how to get along with others to increase chances of reproducing. 

I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 

You’re right, atheism isn’t a worldview by itself, other than describing ones position on the existence of gods. So stop treating it more than it is. Atheism shouldn’t even need to exist. 

As for humanism or “secular humanism” as you call it, what worldviews does it borrow from? The Enlightenment? Then yeah, sure. 

Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 

What’s the problem? 

1. Can you prove God is more than just a concept? The known universe is about 14 billion years old, we’ve existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time. The universe is also really big. 99.99999999…% is uninhabitable to humans. Our planet is a speck of blue in a near empty void. But of course you would probably say that’s evidence for God. Imagine a universe without order (order is relative to the organism/environment btw) and without life. Would anyone be debating about whether there’s a god? No, because there’s no one to conceptualise it. Do you understand what I’m getting at?

2. Many animals consciously do math. Math in itself is nothing special. Humans have just greatly expanded upon it with the help of our vocal range that we evolved, which helped us communicate more complex ideas.

When speaking about truth, I would think hearing voices in your head isn’t that reliable. It’s also potentially dangerous for those who celebrate it, especially with religious conviction. There are millions of people who think the Abrahamic god speaks to them.

That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 

I’d say it’s par for the course. he speaks to me with his presents and sometimes I hear him say things.

There’s other things you could ask such as if he gives off a thermal signature, or would you see his footprints if you placed flour down, etc. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 

I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 

Ethics is how humans function. We’re a social species with standards. This is how we’ve survived. This how all social creatures survive. Yes, animals have moral considerations too — the ability to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong.

which worldview exactly? I say all religions have borrowed from human nature to one existent or another.

Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year.

1. yes, ritual blood sacrifices are bad. But they’re not purely indiscriminate. They think their doing good to appease their gods. 

2. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A16-28&version=NRSV

My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise.

Well if there’s danger, then yeah sure. But it’s more complicated than that. What’s your point?

I don't understand what you mean. 

First, why would want to choose who lives and who dies? Why are you in that position in the first place?

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 

How so? 

To some tribes religion itself wasn’t even a concept until we asked.

Nope. I have something to ask,  all of my threads are questions based,  "Reverend "Tradey".

How did the enemy of god the Philistines managed to handle and open this golden coffer? It was a deadly piece of weaponry in the wrong hands by all accounts.

By “common sense” I meant common belief. Go back and look at the context. It’s  #66. 

I’m not arguing about the five senses. It’s almost as if you’re trying to misconstrue my positions. I’m not going to argue against a premise you falsely assumed. 

Why is being gay a problem? 

I was using it comedically. Plus Abrahamic religions have traditionally had a problem with it. 

This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.

And how do we find out they’re correct? Can you give me something correct that I wouldn’t agree with you on?

Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it.

It seems to me you’re downplaying psychosis. 

You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?

Much about him as a politician I would say is fake, unless he bizarrely changed many of his positions as a 70-80 year old. 

I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 

He’s invisible. But he’s still 100% there. 

I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 

If you’re an atheist against the belief of my dragon, would that mean you’re agnostic with other religions? For example Hinduism is much older than Christianity with a rich culture. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 

Many people from many religions use that argumentation against atheists. Personally I find it childish. We’re a species that’s about 300,000 years old. We evolved to do good. How we interpret good is a different matter. Religion was a way for an uneducated community to be on the same page, especially at scale. But now societies have educated populaces with laws that are easily enforceable compared to a few thousand years ago. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  

That’s the spirit. if It was the truth that you didn’t know a particular skill, but now you do, then all the power to you. 

God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up.

Did the christian God give other religions instructions on how to live too? Many of those instruction I bet you would disagree with. Even within Christianity. 

If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill?

firstly, most people don’t kill purely indiscriminately. Secondly, we are community oriented. There are countless repercussions, not just to yourself, but to your loved ones. 

Does it not become the survival of the fittest?

Survival of the fittest means the best to adapt. Again, humans adapted to be community oriented, that’s how we best survived. 

Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies?

At what cost?

Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 

Societies exist regardless of your god.

Truth may be at times based on common sense.

It’s the other way around. Common sense may be at times based on truth. Belief in gods ain’t one. 

I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters.

There are very few things I call absolute. Colloquially I consider it used just as an expression. However, it does not take away the linguistical importance of what we call true. 

I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 

I was taught it. The dragon also talks to me. He says stop being gay. 

Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 

By faith I meant faith in a god.

Faith is ambiguous by itself. It could mean faith in ones own ability to achieve, which isn’t what I meant. 

Can you please try to contextualise what we’re discussing. Yes I know it’s advantageous for you to not stick to context. 

So go ahead Stephen, why don't you tell us your hidden and secret wisdom.

So you have started as you mean to go on. 

It's just a complete impossibility  for you to have any type of real discussion without any snide slights at all isn't it Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecret?

So just for once in your life, I ask you to stay on the topic https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7018/post-links/301271

And you should know full well what these ancient Israelite artisan priests used gold for specifically.  But I tried to forget and put aside that you really are a bible dunce.

GOLD is and always has been valuable.

True.  But why gold?  Its not the rarest  noble and exotic metal on the planet.

Culture of that day often made peace offerings in the shape of the disease or curse that happened to them.

"often"?

Well that is new to me. Care to expand?

It is hardly novel.

Then care to give us a few biblical examples of these common "offerings of  peace" of disease and cursed shaped gifts  offered to the enemy?

I think Albert Einstein's quote says it all : “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”

Yes Stephen, 

The question is what were the purpose of sending then to their enemies - the enemies whose God was beating them to a pulp?

That isn't totally true, is it. But I won't go into that here. So just for once in your life, I ask you to stay on the topic of the  golden hemerobiids.

Now you may be right that it was to send another insult - and I suppose that is possible - but highly unlikely. 

[A] Well unless you understand what the priests of Aron did with gold, you are never going to know.

Or it may be that it was - as cultures did in that day - want to make sure that the offending deity knew exactly what you were you saying sorry for. 

Unless it wasn't a sorry but an insult.

Golden Hemorrhoids - were valuable.

see [A] above

So hardly an insult. 

Then why not simply a gift of gold?  Or a herd of goats, . God was partial to having goat sacrificed for him.

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

You will have to explain what you mean? 

There’s a fallacy called the bandwagon fallacy AKA the appeal to common belief.

Truth isn’t based on “common sense”. Would you agree? 

Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 

Wait, so you don’t think the dragon in my garage is real? It’s irrational to think otherwise. He created the universe for dragon sake. If he didn’t exist I’d be going out murdering and raping people. I might even turn gay. 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 

You know what else is insulting to the nth degree, trivialising truth by synonymising it with faith. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

My point is, something which is unfalsifiable does not equal truth.

Can you prove there isn’t a dragon in my garage? If not, it must be true, correct?

You aren’t playing dumb. I’ll give you that.

You know what else hasn’t been refuted? The dragon in my garage. 

Don’t play dumb. 

Yeah, you know what else is true, the dragon in my garage. 

What did they think god  or the Israelites were going to do with these piles of gold... eat them?

You are the blowhard of the forum "Reverend "Tradey" Tradsecret.  I am not the one that came here "swaggering" #204 and vaunting imagined theological "qualifications and accreditations"  and titles to the www in a vain effort of impressing fellow members here in the misguided belief that  this  somehow gives you a higher - holier than thou - authority over all other members.  I think its time for you to take the forest from your own eye, Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecret.

Why are you so upset by Stephen affectionately calling you "Tradey?"  What gives?  If anything, Stephen should be more upset with YOU instead when you called him "Stevie Blunder," remember? 

Because just like scripture and Jesus the Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecret is blind to his own double standards and hypocrisy , is why Brother. But you won't see me flagging him to the mods over it . 

 Stephen should be more upset with YOU instead when you called him "Stevie Blunder," remember? 

Knowing the history of the handing of biblical manuscripts, do you really have to ask?

Anyone that hasn't had a personal revelation and they're attending whatever religious service or church that they've been doing out of habit. Without that Revelation it does not become personal.

I think Zed is saying that people who believe in deities are using the same logic they used when they believed in Santa Claus.

And you have received a "personal revelation" have you? Would you like to share it with us? 

Already shared and rejected as not possible since, according to many on this site, including alleged Christians, God no longer speaks to man by any means since faith has been sold in favor of determinism, meaning because we think we know the quantum physics of the universe, we no longer have need of God.

My plethora of posts bear record of my "sharing" on all points of your current queries, and it is clear enough for those who will attempt to do likewise. You have proven to be unwilling regardless of what I say. Why say more of the same?

not tradesecret.#18

And who is talking about voices in the head? Where in the world has this nonsense come from? I would never listen to a voice in my head - unless it was my own voice.  I don't believe God talks to us that way anyway. 

That is  interesting Reverend "Tradey" Tradsecrete.  Tell me; how does god speak to you personally?

there is no real need to attempt an answer because either you won't read it properly,

Well I knew you wouldn't offer any type of answer Reverend "Tradey" Tradescrete.  Not without contradicting past statements that you have made concerning "speaking " with god yet claim that the priesthood is a "calling". 

It is amazing how a little bit of curtesy might assist you IF you really are genuine in wanting answers. 

Would you like reminding of your own "courtesy" shown towards me when I had only been here a matter of weeks?  And you are a  Reverend  when you claim to be a Pastor AND a Chaplain, and it was you that first referred to yourself as "Tradey" , why you do you think I always put it in quotes?

I have told you before, you need to keep up with what your other personas say and claim on your behalf..... "Tradey"

Nice Ethanic jibe.

I don't mind being compared to Ethang.  (Did you read that Stephen? Put that in your little list of quotes.  )

Duly noted. Not much of your shite gets passed me, Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecrete. And I'd be failing in my duty to inform  the members of this forum of your so,so impressive CV of " qualification's and accreditation's " and who you aspire to be like. 😁

I don't understand how it is ethan like though.

That is because you are far too dim......tim,  too.

zedvictor4 wrote: Testimonials of fact for sure.

Tradesecret wrote:: Ha Ha.  You are not relying on testimonies of fact. You are relying upon testimonies of other people.  That is not fact. 

Read your reply very slowly, and note the bold above in particular.

You just cannot suppress your real character/s for too long can you , Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecrete?

I'm not ONLY relying on testimonials - but the evidence of many independent reporters from many parts of history.  

Relying on?  What evidence? From who ? And why?

Again you make excellent points. Perhaps we are all delusional. 

Nope, it is you that has made the claim, sunshine. Now is all you have to do is prove it.

BrotherD.Thomas is back!  Praise Jesus!!!!!

And who is talking about voices in the head? Where in the world has this nonsense come from? I would never listen to a voice in my head - unless it was my own voice.  I don't believe God talks to us that way anyway. 

That is  interesting Reverend "Tradey" Tradsecrete.  Tell me; how does god speak to you personally?

f I were Adolf Hitler's mother, I wouldn't do it even if God blackmailed me. Why did God put me in that position and how do I know I'm not just becoming psychotic and schizophrenic thinking another entity with supreme power compelled me to murder my offspring?

And I am sure that this would be no defence in a court of law as I am sure the Lawyer and Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecrete will attest.

Therefore, it is about time that all Christians join the KKK organization like I did in the name of Jesus, praise! 2+2=4.

Pretty dangerous path to go down if you'd kill your own offspring because your imaginary friend compelled you to do so.

If I were Adolf Hitler's mother, I wouldn't do it even if God blackmailed me. Why did God put me in that position and how do I know I'm not just becoming psychotic and schizophrenic thinking another entity with supreme power compelled me to murder my offspring?

It's an unbelievably extreme error in judgement to slaughter and betray your own family because some voice in your head told you to.

 Those two passages clearly declare that the result of disobeying God would inevitably end with the Israelites committing these foul and heinous offences.

Yes obscene aren't they?  Biblical obscenities.

So I guess by your pointing to "obscenity", that you concede that there is no pornography within the text. Thanks for the concession. 

You do love your  assumptions don't you. I don't believe that I have conceded anything.

...............woke socialist.  They consider it evil and full of hate speech.

More assumptions. I am not "woke", not sure about a socialist. Unlike your god, I do not believe homosexuals should be put to death because of the way HE created them.  And unlike your other persona dimwit tim, I don't believe that the bible should be banned or destroyed or thrown on a fire. 

But for you to deny that there is hate speech and "evil " written in the bible would be for you to  be - predictably - in denial.

Luke 14:26 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple. 

And what else you are failing to see (no surprises) is the "obscenity"  of the verses as have been clearly pointed out by the Brother.

Do you not see the obscenity in eating ones own children Levitcus 26:29?  or Deuteronomy 28:53-57? Both written for the children of Israel audience of gods chosen people and which you and Christians have attached yourselves to?

Testimonials of fact for sure.

But not testimonials of testimonials of testimonials, of the hypothetical super nature that accompanies Middle Eastern myths, that make up the various interpretations of the bible.

There's a whole world of difference between fact and mythical fantasy Trade, as well you know.

Delusional La La Land

Nice Ethanic jibe.

But I know exactly where La La Land is.

It's in Trades head, and currently a GOD is lodging there.