YouFound_Lxam

What is a moral conscience without our humanity? 

Again, you’re confusing morality with ethics. Morality is merely the distinction between good and bad, right and wrong. 

they would know through media and other means. 

Dogs aren’t that capable of understanding human language. Well body language they somewhat understand. They’ll try to protect you if you’re attacked.

Also if you’re in trouble and they need another human to come and help, they might try to get the attention of the nearest human. 

I'm not sure what the problem is with "legally" being anything on gender.  I'm a straight male but I've never thought of myself as "legally" male, have you?

Now, if there are issues with transwomen being different that women qualifying for sports or something, then I'm open to treating transwomen differently.

 I agree that trans parents shouldn't push their sexuality on kids, but then again, I feel the same way about straight parents.  Let kids be who they are, gay, straight or whatever.  Families who deal with these issues take them seriously and if there's any agenda pushing it's most often not accepting non-straight kids.  

I think there are tribal problems with many groups pushing their agenda in a way that's intolerant and angry.   You see this on the Left and the Right.   But a person being true to his sexuality isn't an "ideology". 

He's just being who he feels he is.  Who cares?  So long as it doesn't hurt others, that's fine. 

I don't agree with that overly generous assessment of conservatives.   For example, most Republicans still believe, without any evidence, that Biden didn't win the election and when we're talking about 60-70% of Republicans, that's not the "far" right.   I'll stop there being the topic is transpeople.

I meant transwomen, not "men"

Are you seeing a lot of problems with transmen in men's restrooms? 

 If there are problems, let's create some more laws about it.

 It's none of your business what kind of surgery or drug therapy someone wants to do.   Wanna pierce your nose or squirt ink into your skin or take hair from your butt and stitch it into your scale... not my business.

As for kids, I agree it needs to be taken slow and maybe more controls need to be added.

 In particular there needs to be some kind of psychological test and counseling to help children and their parents find the best option.

However, this hysteria that woke parents are forcing kids to be trans is a bit silly.

 I don't think transwomen should be participating in women's sports because of the unfair advantage.

I'm not sure how you feel kids are being hurt.

  I think the really important thing is for both Ds and Rs to stop politicizing this issue because THAT really hurts kids.  

Again, I don't get why you think it's an "ideology"

It's part of nature

Remember the social norms back in the good ole days when blacks had to sit at the back of the bus? Was that change bad for society?

Was the dog taught that stealing is wrong?

 Take jumping on the dining table to help itself to a meal as an example. If you tell it off enough times, it will learn that’s bad behaviour.

That’s how kids learn and some adults for that matter, through various punishments. While rewards work to reinforce good behaviour. Puppies get growled at by their father, mother when they’re too hypo, they then calm and lay down. That’s their miss-behaviour being corrected. They also learn social dynamics from each other through play, just like humans.

Staying with chimpanzees, it’s been documented that a mother chimpanzee has carried around the corpse of her dead baby to the point of starving herself. 

If a man wants to dress like a woman and live like one because that's how he/she feels inside then what's the harm?  If he wants to be called "she" then call him she.  It costs you nothing.   You don't have to date this person and offering someone this kind of basic dignity and respect costs you nothing.   Be kind and let others be who they are.

Now, I agree there are some conflicting areas that society needs to work out, but some of the these are just being needlessly politicized usually by the Right, but in some cases by the Left.   For example, I'm sure transwomen have been using womens' restrooms for a long time and no one cares because no one notices and no one's getting peeped or assaulted, etc.    Likewise, while there should be safeguards on gender therapy, in most cases these decisions are being made only after families with this issue have long struggled over what to do and how to approach it.    Sports, same thing.  But it would be better if we let local communities work these things out and see what they come up with.  Nationalizing these issues for political points is unhelpful and often harmful for the kids, parents, and communities. 

Most of all everyone needs to take a breath and step back and let society readjust to greater inclusion of transpeople.  It's not going to happen overnight.   All parties would be better off with less of a spotlight on the issue.

It actually doesn't at all - longitude studies suggest that transitioning is highly deleterious as a mechanism for stress release to the gender dysphoric. 

Aren’t irreligious countries the happiest?

Also aren’t the murder rates in red states the highest in the US?

The same way people have thought for more than 100,000 years. We are not perfect moral beings just as our ancestors weren’t. 

Though I can go deeper in so far as to argue morality has a strong evolutionary basis. Even if it’s self-evident that many animals have moral inclinations.

• Crazy talk.  Let's agree a large group of people believe the sun rises in the east.  Is that belief an ideology?
  

• Quite false.  Transgender people are only honestly reporting their feeling that their personal identity doesn't match the identity assigned them at birth.  There is no choice or belief system involved that is the unkind prejudice you impose upon them by assuming they are insincere in their reports.
  
• You cannot produce a single example of a transman claiming that he is biologically identical to a cisman.  Some transmen still menstruate and get pregnant and all transmen will acknowledge that this is a biological difference between transmen and cismen.
  

personal identity doesn't match the identity assigned them at birth.

transman claiming that he is biologically identical to a cisman.

• False.  Men can legally become women.  Women can legally become men. 
  

Some transmen menstruate and get pregnant. 

• As explained to you many, many times without sinking in.: The ideology you describe is a real ideology belonging to Feminism and predating even the word Transgender.  Transgenderism has a meaning that describes an human experience and not an ideology.  When you use the wrong label for the ideology, you are disrepecting the experience as well as the Feminsts right to authorship of the ideology you oppose.  
  

• That's right.  And any socially constructed activity is far more likely to be ideological thanjust  being honest about who your are, right?
  

To prove your logic is sound, you must provide three examples of the well know ideology called Debaterism.  SInce we both know you can't you should admit that your reasoning is faulty.

Yes, there are ideas involved but no idelogy.

Yes, but it seems you are conflating identity and ideology. Are you? 

It would be incorrect to say ones identity is their ideology 

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics.

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

I see.  So you thnk that any IDEA is also an IDEOLOGY.  The mere notion that "I think I might be man trapped ina woman's body" counts as a "Doctrine, philosophy, body of beliefs or principles belonging to an individual or group."   Since I wasn't born a debater but only took up debating in the last years, you feel like you can impose an ideology of debaterism on me, ever though you are totally incapable of naming once principle debater hold in common.

Debaters don't have to be with Debatersim in order to be Debaters.  Therefore, Debaterism is an ideology and not something mentally based in any biological or medical way.  It is an idea and not something someone is born with and some one can be a Debater at any time anywhere for any reason.

If your logic is sound, than you should be able to give me three prominent examples of Debaters and explain three prinicples that alll Debaterists hold in common.

If you can't do this, your argument must fail since not all ideas are ideology.

That my friend is called an ideology. 

• You, my friend, need a dictionary.
  

In 1996, E Jean Carrol was allegedly raped by Donald Trump. When she went public about it years later, Trump called her a liar. He called her a liar as President and he called he a liar as an ex-president. Then he called her a liar on-line today as the case is in court.

He’s being sued for defamation, just like FOX News was and settled for 787 million dollars after discovery went very badly for FOX.

This reminds me of a quote… “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” It’s easy to feel happy and fulfilled when you don’t have to think too hard about what’s good or bad.

But anyway, their true happiness comes from community. We are social creatures after all. 

Although it’s essentially the definition for ethics.

To be clear, motives within the court of law are independent of consequentialism and deontologicalism.

But anyway…

A person in a deontological mindset would say killing is wrong.

A person in a consequentialist mindset has to think about the consequences of said action.

We are all moral agents no matter how many rules you abide by.

Firstly, you’re conflating morality with ethics. Morality is the distinction between good and bad while ethics is essentially the definition you proposed.

Secondly, what side do you sit on most, consequentialism, or deontologicalism? And why? 

I would argue that consequentialism is multifaceted while deontologicalism is not.

Thirdly, people who claim that they have objective morals don’t contribute anything to the conversation on their high horse. And often times do more harm than good when in power. 

Thirdly, people who claim that they have objective morals don’t contribute anything to the conversation on their high horse. And often times do more harm than good when in power. 

You still ignore my arguments and my questions. 

• All of your bullshit is premised on the false notion that there is an ideology out there.  Since you now know for a fact that there is no such ideology, you now also know there's no point to makup up fake arguments against it.
  

Can someone who is not born with gender dysphoria, become transgender?

• WIKIPEDIA: Transgender is an umbrella term. In addition to trans men and trans women, it may also include people who are non-binary.  Other definitions of transgender also include people who belong to a third gender, or else conceptualize transgender people as a third gender, and the term may be defined very broadly to include cross-dressers.  Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender.  
  
• Gender dysphoria is the distress a person experiences due to a mismatch between their gender identity—their personal sense of their own gender—and their sex assigned at birth,
  
• So- many people are born transgendered but nobody is born with dysphoria.
  
• Many trans people don't decide they are trans until later in life.
  
• Some trans people don't experience GD until later in life.
  
• Some trans people don't experience GD at 
  

I would like to eradicate, any moral system or ideology created by people that dictates how people should act.

• There is no moral system or ideology that was not created by people.  Therefore, you are working to eradicate all human ideas.
  

But this debate is about Transgender Ideology, not Feminism, so let's keep it on topic. 

• There is no Transgender ideology.  
  
• All you have to do to disprove me is to find three self-identified Transgenderists who succintly state the what Transgenderism believes.
  
• Obviously, no anti-transgenderists or non-genderists can be counted.
  
• Any idiot can produce this simple reality test for any real idealogy.  
  
• If you can't do it, then my statement that there is no Transgender Ideology stands.
  

Until you have established that you know for a fact that Transgenderism is real and that you understand that ideology 'score principles, there really is no point to going on and on about it as if it was real, right?

Where do you get the "truly"?

If morality were subjective, then that would be that. Their morality would be true for any society that has customs and laws. Those laws differ from time to time and place to place.

In ancient Greece, people thought it was okay to expose deformed babies to the elements. We now think that was wrong.

In the USA today, most people think it's okay to kill a human embryo. Many in this country think it is wrong. Opinion has gone back and forth on this issue. Maybe we will hash it out someday, then the result will be our morality.

Some societies believe it is wrong to smoke marijuana and severely punish people who do it. Where is your objective morality on this issue?

• Essentially my point.  The lead story is not that you are anti-transgenderism, or anti-LGBTQ.  The lead story, the whole truth is that  it is modern feminism you'd like to eradicate.  Well, the Republican Party certainly agrees with you.
  

• I refute that Transgender Ideology is the proper label for what you are opposing.
  
• I think NOW summed it up best:  all people are valid in their stated identities.
  

• All American speech uses the First Ammendment
  

• the Feminist philosophy stating that " all people are valid in their stated identities" tests most Americans' commitment to free expression.  Hence, reinforcement for those who pass the test.
  

• By nature and design, The First Ammendment is threatened on a continuous basis.
  

• In the same post you ask me to explain the Transgender Ideology to you but also state that whatever you end up learning Transgenderism to be, it is the opposite of free expression.  That is a very nice textbook example of prejudice of course.  You are still waiting for the premise but alas, your conclusion has arrived.
  

• Has it ever occurred to you  that the demographic is not expanding but only coming out of the closet?   A Constitutional protection for transpeople was only affirmed by Supreme Court in 2020. 
  

Not fifteen years ago, an employee of 20 years at HP sent an email on Friday promising a radical change in his look on Monday morning.  Certain that he was going to come to work in a dress,  mgmt. fired him on Friday night.  Turns out the poor bastard had only decided to give up on his increasingly obvious toupee.  Of course there great hue and cry from the proletartiat but no appeal could entertained.   

• That is, just fifteen years ago it was perfectly normal to fire an employee just for making the boss think he might make an adjustment to his stated gender  identity. 
  

• Let's agree that being  fired for being trans is a very good reason for trans people to never speak honestly in public about their identity.  It has only been okay to say your trans in public for the last three years.  Occam's razor suggest that the very recent and substantial decrease in threat to trans people's livlihood is the direct and entirely sufficient cause to explain the increase about which you hysterically overreaact.
  

• Only the Republicans are at war with culture: culture is a mirror and vampires resent their lack of reflection.  The trans folks are just trying to find a way to be public and honest about who they are.  Certainly, it worked out better for the rest of the LGB's.
  

• You mean what do they (trans citizens) contribute.
  

• Same as you contribute, you little shithead, or any other citizen although considering your age probably a whole lot more than you in terms of labor, commericial particpation, ideas, civic participation,  public service, art, taxes, etc.
  
• Do really imagine that trans-people can't contribute same as you?
  

• Do you think that you are a contribution o society?  and if you answer yes, let's assume the average trans person contributes more good to society.
  

Everybody agrees there are differences- You contradict  most biologists, the AMA, the APA by claiming that those differences are black and white and cleanly dilineated.  That is very old school thinking long disproved by science. 

• Most famous biologists don't think there are differences between man and women?  I don't buy that.  That's just another straw man. Name a few famous biologist who say there is no difference btween male and females brains.
  

Name a few famous biologist who say there is no difference btween male and females brains.

• Oh, so you think "almost all" scientists are insincere in their findings and so easily swayed by external pressure?   You think Science generally is conspiring together to conceal from you what Scientists  really, secretly think about gender dimorphism and it just so happens that Science's top-secret, uncoerced opinion matches your own?
  

If that's is your general opinion of Science (and I can't say I'll surprised that it is) then why the hell bother claiming in the OP that you want to stick to science and biology.

• OK, let's hear your brilliant plan to eradicate transgenderism while upholding the Constitution and remaining a moral man
  

Aren't you assuming here that there is an objective morality?

Race is only a social construct, it is not a biological attribute or a category of human genetic  variation.

• Let's agree that if you knew for a fact that there is such a thing as Transgenderism, you wouldn't need someone else to explain it to you.
  
• The ideology is called Feminism and most modern Feminists make this claim:
  
• non-binary and gender-nonconforming people are valid in their stated identities.
  

• Re-enforces the Constitutional right to free expresssion
  

• Permits all citizens to contribute to society equally unemcumbered by the irrational fears and prejudices of others
  

Although the specific dynamics are not well understood, biological differences between cis and trans people have been documented. Few American biologists would agree with the statement the the human categories of men and women are fundamental differences with sharp boundries.

"At the time, this was not a universally popular idea. The neuroscience community had largely considered any observed sex-associated differences in cognition and behavior in humans to be due to the effects of cultural influences. Animal researchers, for their part, seldom even bothered to use female rodents in their experiments, figuring that the cyclical variations in their reproductive hormones would introduce confounding variability into the search for fundamental neurological insights.
Nirao Shah studies how some genes at work in the mouse brain determine sex-specific behaviors, like the female trait of protecting the nest from intruders. He says most of these genes have human analogues, but their function is not fully understood.". 

But over the past 15 years or so, there’s been a sea change as new technologies have generated a growing pile of evidence that there are inherent differences in how men’s and women’s brains are wired and how they work."

 Almost all scientists agree that there exist biological "shades of gray" between men and women that sometimes manifest as trangenderism or other nonbinary nonconformities.

• If you are, as you say, sticking with the biology, then your plan to eradicate transgenderism  should be entirely off the table.
  

Is it not possible, that most societies share certain moral intuitions because they have found that they are beneficial?

Societies work better when not killing, not stealing, and not raping is customary or the law. 

Why not? Local custom or law can be the basis for resolving moral arguments. They work just fine.

Interpersonal and objective are two things. Even if it knowingly applies to every single person, we don't know if other societies exist or not.

Only in a social sense, right.  I mean, they also created the labels transgender men and cisgender men to note the biological distinction

No trans persons is claiming that they magically transformed into the gender they feel more comfortable within.

A fact of life:  transmen with functional uteruses can get pregnant. 

You were once again lying.  Transmen have a Consitituional right to identify as men and they don't have to admit otherwise to you in order to avoid your program of eradication.

The US Constitution protects such speech and any attempt by you to eradicate such speech is patently anti-American.  

• Both terms describe the same phenomenon.  As you've proved incapable of comprehending, anybody identifiying as anything is called liberty in America.  That is ideology called Liberalism and America is built on the foundation belief in that liberty.  There's nothing particularly transgender about that ideology only particularly American.
  

You have pissed your pants and run away from the irrefutable evidence that Heritage manufactured a fake report claiming  that kids who get gender surgery without their parent's permission are the cause of a significant rise in teen suicide disguising the fact that there are no kids that get gender surgey without their parent's permission.  

Heritage.org uses the format and language of scientific papers to print anti-scientific, faith-based claims knowing that suckers like you will think its science and think there is some scientific basis to your claim.  Rest assured, on the day you emerge from your hermetically sealed right wing bubble, you will discover that  actual serious peer-reviewed and tested science rejected  your faith-based claims 30 years ago.

An abortion rights activists states in Congressional testimony (for the 100th time that day) a self-identified transman who has not had his tubes tied or other surgery can get pregnant and have a child.  Basic biological fact NOT an ideological statement of any kind.

Likewise, Congresswomen Cortez came under fire for using the phrase "Mensturating people" in a tweet.  LIkewise, she simply expained that many people who identify as transmen still get their periods.

LGBTQ  Civil Rights are very deep to me, kid.

 As a student of history, I understand that my life depends on discrediting your call to "eradicate" me and my kind.

•  Just because you aren't old or bright enough to understand  the destruction such rhetoric inflicts on civil societies, does not mean you get to tell me to chill out regarding the threat you pose.
  

No, this is what reasoned thought and science does. You said you want to make the argument on the basis of science but those two sources don't have any scientific credibility whatsoever.  

 These groups seek to define Transgenders in order to control transgenders but you can't reasonably claim that people believe an ideology because the people longing to disagree with that idelogogy told you that those people believe that.

• Greene, Puberty Blockers, Cross-Sex Hormones, and Youth Suicide
  
• Extremely  well distributed across the Right Wing echo chamber on Twitter, Facebook, reported by FOX News, WSJ, all major right-wing media.
  
• Notice that although Greene represent his report as a scientific study, his study was never published or even submitted to any scientific journal, no peer review was ever sought and a freshman in sociology could explain why Greene's report could never pass any peer review.
  
• Greene himself has his doctorate in Political Science.  No scientists, particularly medical professionals or biologists were involved in writing this report.  No transgendered people participated in Greene's analysis of transgendered behavior.
  
• In short, not fucking science in any sense of the word.  Although Heritage and FOX and Republicans Senators on Twitter all called it Science, that was all just a lie to fool suckers like you.
  
• Greene's thesis goes like this, "there are 33 states where doctors are not compelled to seek parental permission before treating a minor, with an incedible amount of variety within those 33 states regarding circumstances.  Those 33 states have seen a 1.6 per 100,000 increase in suicide among ages 12-23 since 2010 and 2010 is when hormone therapies started become widely available, therefore the lack of compulsory parental permission is causing more teen suicide.
  
• Never mind the blatant Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc, Greene never bothers to tell his wide-eyed believers that the AMA and APA consider any kind of hormone treatment or surgery on minors without parental permission unethical and Doctors simply don't provide these treatments to minors without parental permission.  There is no reporting so it may be possible to find one or two outliers but there is ZERO POSSIBILITY that the frequency of incendents could impact the general suicide rate in 12-23 year olds.  Any statistiician could have explained to Heritage that scale of the suggested problem is infinitely small compared to the result Greene irresponsible claims.
  
• In 2021 about 1,390  out of 50 million kids aged 6-17 sought puberty blocker care in 2021.  There was not one documented case of a minor receiving puberty blockers without that minor's parent's permission.  Such drugs are expensive and you can't tell me that  the insurance  companies are paying for drugs behind the parent's back.  Of the 282 mastectomies performed  in 2021 on minors with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria all were over 16 years old and all had parent's permission.
  
• Put succintly, Greene is blaming teen suicide on a phenomenon  that does not exist: trans teens getting gender affirming treatment without parental permission.
  

Why is the Heritage Center printing phony scientific reports that couldn't pass peer review by a high school biology class?  To trick gullible fools into thinking there's a problem that can only be solved by voting for Republicans.  

• I never said that.  Please go fuck yourself for making up so many lies about what I'm saying.  If you can't argue honestly, don't argue at all.
  

Another lie. 

The Southern Baptists and the dishonored Heritage foundation were rejected as themselves ideological enterprises and therefore non-objective sources for defining your phony term.

• But when the Harvard Law Review and Stanford School of Medicine catch your "journalists" making up their own studies and fact to justify their false beliefs, we can dismiss those studies and the Foundatin behind them  as corrupt and anti-scientific and driven by religious hate and political profit and not objective science.  ALL rational debaters reject studies like this is they want to be, as you pretend to be, on the side of "science and biology"  Because the Heritage Foundation cheated at the science, no honorable objective opinion can trust it.
  

Go fuck your desperate childish attempts to change the subject.

 Prove Transgender Ideology is a real belief and quickly or admit your haven't really thought your claim through.

I don't believe this.

Ok, well thats on you.

• You provide one cuckoo anti-science religious source and once cuckoo anti-science poltical source.  
  

Southern Baptists are not a legitimate source for defining something called transgender ideology. 

• Nobody agrees with it.  You haven't produces one single person who agrees with it.
  

No, I'm saying traitors to my country have proved they don't have American's best interest at heart.

When discussing American public policy, let's only rely on people who want American democracy to succeed and never, ever listen to  traitors who have revealed that they are working to destroy American democracy.

• A very cowardly non-sequitur.  Nobody claimed otherwise.  Focus:
  
• Labeling all Catholics pedophiles = labeling all Transgenders Transgenderists
  

• Stop.  You must support this claim or fuck off as a dishonest troll.
  
• You claim there are"transgender people in real life and spokespersons who claim  that  gender identity is as important as biological sex"
  
• Provide three example of transgender spokespeople making this claim.  
  
• No, we can't have any right-wingers telling us what they think transgender spokepeole say, give us the actual proof that this idealogy exists.
  

• False, opposite.  I consider the NYT a reasonably well considered source.  I'm just saying you have yet to provide a NYT article that backs your claim.
  

Ok first of all, if your going to say that any organization that lyes shouldn't be trustworthy ever,

• False, stupid preverification on your part.  I am saying that any source of information that deliberately distorted the outcome of the US Election in pursuit of polticial has lost their right to be trusted.
  

I don't believe this.

You have no empirical evidence to tie your theory of the Heritage foundation to being lying a**holes.

• You are also being exactly that same asshole, trying to force labels and ideologies on to people who don't accept you false mischaracterizations driven by a call for eradication.  Your misconduct in this forum is evidence enough for anybody.
  

• But then obviously, just as it would be evil of you to refer to all Catholics as pedophiles and who believe in an pedophilism ideology  that you mysteriously call Catholicism, it is exactlyh the same evil to refer to all transgender people when you are attempting to label some extremist minority opinion.   
  

My point is that calling an ideology that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT does not represent transgendered people "TRANSGENDERISM" is every bit as socially unaceptable a renaming pedophilia Catholicism.

Politics don't hold every ideology. Religious ideologies have within them different political viewpoints. Just because you have the same basic belief or ideology as someone else, doesn't mean you have to have the same political opinions on how society should be run to a T. You can be a Christian, with Christian beliefs, and still be a democrat or republican. 

• So why in hell would you call some notion "transgender ideology" when you understand that it does not represent transgendered people?
  

• They belief that gender identity (the gender in which you want to identify) is as important as biological sex (what you were born as). Now as for getting into details of that claim, you can break it down easily, but when someone asks what they belief and you say that, they have an answer. Simple. 
  

• You're just repeating what I said.
  

Please provide 3 examples of political expression of the idea that "gender identity is as important as biological sex,"  that is not merely expressing the idea "that transgender people are entitled to the same civil rights as any other citizen."

Their are many examples: 

SpaceX’s giant new rocket exploded minutes after blasting off Thursday on it first test flight and crashed into the Gulf of Mexico.

Elon Musk’s company was aiming to send the nearly 400-foot (120-meter) Starship rocket on a round-the-world trip from the southern tip of Texas.

Well, Jesus could have been transgender, according to a University of Cambridge dean.

Dr Michael Banner, the dean of Trinity College, said such a view was “legitimate”.

No, you go off of transgender people's words... After redefining them back into the definitions you accept.