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@Best.Korea
The question asks what would you rather have, not what exists. You can want things that dont currently exist.
I can't imagine a world with pain without liberty and vice versa. Both are needed.
So not all lives are equal. If all lives were equal, you would prefer all life situations equally.
That makes no sense at all. Thats ridiculous.
Basic math, if all human lives are equal, then two are more valuable than one. Do you agree?
No that's not how it works. Each person has equal value.
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@Best.Korea
Its obvious what pain and liberty are. You are just dodging the question because you cant answer to it.
But the question "in question" doesn't make sense.
Would you rather live in "pain and non-liberty" or "liberty and non-pain"? This tells which life is better.
There is no such thing as a world without pain or without liberty. It doesn't make sense.
A more simple one: Would you rather have the life you have now or be locked in cage and tortured?
I would rather have the life I have now, but that doesn't have anything to do with the value of other people.
Are all human lives equally valuable? Are all humans equally valuable? These are questions you should answer probably.
Yes. They are.
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@Best.Korea
Would you rather live in "pain and non-liberty" or "liberty and non-pain"? This tells which life is better.
I need a more in-depth description of what that would entail. Definitions.
Can you tell me what is your moral standard regarding human lives? Because you seem to reject consequentialism.
All humans are valuable. Their value isn't based economic good.
It is based upon the fact that they are human.
All humans are valuable.
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@Best.Korea
There is a difference between abortion being morally justified and legal abortion. Abortion can be morally wrong, but legal.
Yes. Just like the extermination of Jews, by the Nazis was technically "legal" in that area at that time.
I don't believe that society determines right or wrong, so yes you are right, but I am talking about morals.
This is because abortion being illegal can cause even more harm, even if abortion itself is morally wrong.
I think preventing the slaughter of millions of children annually would prevent harm, not create more.
There are also different cases where abortion is more or less morally justified, like defects, late term abortions...
I believe abortion by definition, (human abortion) is morally wrong.
Because by definition, it is the termination of a living human organism.
And that is morally wrong according to my definition.
And I'm willing to defend that.
Now obviously there are cases where killing humas is justified, like self-defense. I believe that is the only time it is justified to kill another human.
And abortion is not self-defense.
Not all lives have equal value. For example, lives closer to workforce have more economical value by comparison.
Well, if economics is what you determine value with then sure. I don't.
Lives lived in pain and non-liberty have lower quality value compared to lives lived in liberty and non-pain.
I fundamentally disagree.
When calculating saving lives, life of a doctor becomes more important than life of criminal, disabled or low ability.
I again, fundamentally disagree.
Life of a healthy fetus at 8 months is more valuable than life of defective fetus at 3 months.
Thats a dangerous way to determine value.
If value is determined by economic success, then why don't we just kill all of the economically unsuccessful people?
So there is plenty to discuss, and obviously, its one topic that includes thousands of other debate topics.
Of course.
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@WyIted
Most Democrats don’t state this out loud but it is their strategy for reducing the crime rate. What's wrong with that?
I'm going to assume that this is sarcastically rhetorical, but in the case that it's not, genocide is wrong.
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@zedvictor4
So I doubt that many anti-abortionists are absolutely pro-life.
Well, I'm not just anti-abortionist. I am pro-life.
I mean that in the context of abortion and preserving human life.
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I'm back after a long vacation from DebateArt.
And for those of you who do know me, some of my views on the world, or arguments for them have changed.
So, I'm here for open minded dialogue and hopefully we all can learn something from each other.
I still stand for pro-life. If anyone would like to discuss, I am open to it.
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@Mall
You only mentioned four books and you said all that is required to be saved/go to heaven was what you said. So that's fine.
The four gospels are the story from eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ.
They are Jesus's direct teachings.
Those are the 4 main books.
But you can't understand the context of the gospels without reading the Old Testament.
And you can't understand God's influence in building a church without reading the epistles and the rest of the New Testament.
So read the Bible for context.
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@Stephen
So simply converting to Christianity & undergoing the baptism ritual for instance, wouldn't alone make me a Christian in the "true faith" according to your definition, then?
Depends on what you mean by converting to Christianity.
The Baptism ritual is simply a representation, and not a requirement for salvation.
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@Stephen
How do you define "true faith"?
Faith that goes beyond a simple statement.
Faith that you apply to your life.
Faith that produces works.
Faith that produces good fruit.
Like the fruits of the spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-Control
Faith that creates a relationship with you and God.
An intimate spiritual relationship.
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@Mall
So you've been taught about those books and no other book.
No. I think in my opinion, (for me coming from an atheist background, and then searching for truth, because I can't accept moral relativism) it would be intellectually dishonest to only research and look for 1 person who claimed divinity or revelations from divinity.
So, I've researched Islam and Muhammeds teachings in the Qur'an.
I've researched Buddha's teachings in Buddhism.
And I've briefly looked into Hinduism as well.
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@Mall
After studying the Gospels, it's clear that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, show that Jesus taught that exact doctrine.
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@Statichead
Israel is not the best country by far. It is just as corrupt as western nations and has its bad sides.
However, it is the sanctuary of the Middle East. It is the only truly prosperous country in the Middle East.
In fact, a lot of the pro-Palestinian journalists, actually live in Israel, constantly contradicting themselves.
Whatever the case may be, no matter how unequal Israel may have been, it is no justification for Hamas (a terrorist organization) to go into Israel, and slaughter thousands of innocent non-military Israelis, as well as Arab Israelis, and visiting American citizens. Not only were they slaughtered, but they were brutally de-humanized. Some of the things that happened on October 7th, is worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews.
Babies were put in ovens and burned alive in front of their parents.
Little girls and women were raped and dismembered as well as disemboweled.
Boys were forced to shoot their own families.
And let's not forget the kidnapping that happened with toddlers, infants, and children, as well as many adults, and American citizens.
And even after all of that, the idea that the Palestinian people are now suffering because of Israels retaliation, is a blatant lie.
Hamas has had, and still does, have the chance to let Palestinian civilians leave the war zone. Instead, they have actually been caught killing their own people from attempting to migrate to the south of the Gaza strip.
Hamas makes its military and rocket bases under Palestinian hospitals, colleges, and elementary schools, but they don't stop the progress of these institutions. They literally use these children and adults as human shields from Israels retaliation from this attempted genocide.
In fact, Israel has done the complete opposite of Hamas, and actually attempted to help the Palestinian people, by sending warnings on devices, sending warning bombs that shake buildings, cutting off water in the North, and letting it run in the South, in order to draw people away from the war zone.
And Israel has actually held back when it comes to military power. If Israel truly wanted to, they could destroy, and carpet bomb the entire Gaza strip tomorrow, but they don't because they value human life.
So, all that to say:
Israel is ultimately justified in this conflict.
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@TheUnderdog
I don't believe I will ever have true faith in anything in the afterlife. What if you are wrong? What if there is nothing? It's a gamble. The next time you think you have faith in God, if there is a plane on fire that you are on and it's very high up in the sky, celebrate, because according to you, you are about to go to heaven.
What if I'm wrong?
Then I seize to exist.
I don't suffer.
I just die.
But the real question is, what if your wrong?
Thats the real question.
But I would be having faith that I get to go to heaven. God's looking out for me, isn't he?
Having faith includes having faith in God's plan. God's plan involves your life. Because your life is the bridge to lead others to God.
So, it is a selfish act to commit suicide, and God's plan isn't selfish.
You don't know what God's plan is.
To live and to prosper.
His plan could have had me commit suicide
No. It doesn't.
Then what sins does God pay for?
All of them. Every last one of them. Except Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
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@Benjamin
"Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don't leave a thing; kill all the men, women, children, and babies;
If it was a complete genocide, why did the Amalekites show up later in the Bible?
Also, I think it was justified to kill a people who were literally putting newborn babies on sizzling hot iron sacrifice idols and were involved in Pagan practices of the evil kind.
But they show up later, so by definition, it wasn't a genocide.
- God killed all the firstborn in Egypt
- God killed everyone on earth except for Noah
- God destroyed Sodoma and Gamorah
- God ordered the genocide of Jerico and a hundred other cities in the book of Joshua
- God led foreign kingdoms to invade and genocide on Israeli soil
- GOD DID NOT PROTECT HIS PEOPLE FROM THE HOLOCAUST; so that had to be part of his plan aswell
1. Not a genocide.
2. Everyone was demon possessed in the world. It was justified. They were beyond saving.
3. Not a genocide. The people still existed.
4. Jerico was a city of the Canaanites. They still existed after Jerico.
5. No he didn't.
6. Did God command that?
My point is that a christian is going to heaven regardles of suicide or not. Therfore, they are not commiting suicide in order to get to heaven, they are taking suicide to escape life on earth.
In order to be a Christian, you have to have faith in Jesus's Sacrifice.
Jesus's Sacrifice was for the purpose so that you could live both on earth, and eternally.
Killing yourself is taking your faith off of Gods sacrifice for life, and on to yourself for your plan to get pleasure or escape from the world God created for you.
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@Ball-425
I am just saying that is disanalagous to use the body, mind, and soul in comparison with the trinity and that my previous concerns still have credence
Ok, fair, and I understand that.
It's obviously not going to be a perfect comparison, because nothing in nature has the same "design" as God does, because God is an unfathomable being.
To be perfectly honest, I think it is even a bit too naive to even address God as a being.
But I am trying to make a "somewhat reasonable comparison" to help people understand.
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@Mall
Is it your understanding that to go to heaven, all one has to do is have faith in Christ Jesus?
You must:
Believe God is real.
Accept Jesus Christ as the New Covenant and as your Lord and Savior.
Have true Faith in Christ, in order to live the life, you were called to live according to his purpose.
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@Benjamin
Suicide is not the key to heaven, Jesus is. Suicide is simply to run towards the door because you cannot bear the cold outside. You still must have faith than upon reaching the door the key will work and you will get warm inside. All this decision requires is that you don't believe that suicide automatically destorys the key.
Suicide is literally putting faith in an action, you commit, in order to get to heaven.
Your Salvation doesn't depend on it, but the Bible says God has a divine plan and a purpose for your life, not for your death.
It says this in Proverbs 16:4.
Hundreds of genocides, plagues, famines, animal sacrifices and infanticides have been part of Gods plan - according to the Bible itself. God brings life AND death, read your Bible.
Genocides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.
Plagues? Yes.
Famines? Yes.
Animal Sacrifices? Yes.
Infanticides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.
But even if they were all true, that doesn't address the claim I am making. I am saying suicide is not part of Gods plan for someone's life.
If Christians get to heaven despite all of their sin, but suicide automatically sends you to hell, then that fact sure seems like something really important to write in the Bible.
If I made the explicit claim, that all people that commit suicide are going to hell, I apologize.
Thats not where I stand.
I am simply saying that it is un-biblical to commit suicide for the purpose of getting to heaven.
Just like it would be unbiblical for a Christian to try and trick the system and live a life of sin on purpose and then at the end of this life, ask for forgiveness just so that he could get into heaven.
This is taken completely out of context. God is not here adressing all humans or even all Christians. This is cherry picking. Find a verse that actually adresses suicide. Also, if this was actually adressed to suicidal people, then it would be a freaking lie.
1. This is not taken out of context. The context is:
"This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8 Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the Lord.
10 This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. [b] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”"
We can see that the Lord is talking to a specific people group. But this doesn't mean we can't apply this to our own lives as Christians covered by Christs blood.
Also, if you want other verses, look to:
Proverbs 16:4
Psalms 57:2
Proverbs 19:21
Ephesians 1:11
Romans 8:28
And there are many more like these.
The fact that they take their life is proof that they didn't prosper, but were in fact harmed - if not by God then by the world he created and refused to protect them from because of a vague idea of "free will" or some shit.
Well according to the host of this forum, he is addressing people who have the idea that suicide is a free quick ticket to heaven.
I am addressing that idea, not the idea of suicide in general.
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@Benjamin
This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. There are billions of christians, it's intelectually dishonest to make such a broad statement without any evidence.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said proof, I should have said we can assume.
Nope - that is an absurd statement. You would literally be ending your life that you have control over, and putting your faith in God and his heaven.
Nope. You would be putting faith in your action (suicide) to get you to heaven because you can't get to heaven unless you are dead.
So, you would be putting your faith in yourself to make a decision to get you to heaven, that doesn't align with Gods plan.
If you have faith in God's plan that means you must logically believe that your suicide was predicted and that God did not want to prevent it, because if he wanted to he would have.
Suicide is not part of Gods plan in anyone's life, because God came to bring life, not death.
God doesn't prevent sins, or bad deeds because he wants to, because that would take away free will.
How do you know that? Biblically speaking,
Jeremiah 29:11
" For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
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@Ball-425
Yes, I completely agree with what you said.
So where is the problem.
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@TheUnderdog
Here, I'll be the Christian here and stop your argument where it messes up:
Me: So Christians; do you believe Jesus paid for everyone's sins?
Yes.
Me: So I automatically go to heaven?
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him, then yes.
Me: So why do I have to be Christain? I'm going to heaven no matter what.
No, you aren't. You won't go to heaven (full relationship with God) if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and have true faith in him.
The very definition of being a Christain, is accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him.
Me: You believe in God and Jesus and you believe when you die, you will go to heaven?
Not simply just belief, but true faith as well, but yes, we do believe accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, whilst having true faith in him, will get you into heaven (full relationship with God).
Me: And you believe living in heaven is unimaginably better than life here?
Yes. Heaven (full relationship with God) is far better than Earth.
Me: And Jesus paid for all of your sins, so because you believe in him, you get to go to heaven when you die (even if you commit a crime or sin as bad as murder)?
If you commit any sin, and you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have true faith in him, then yes you will go to heaven.
Me: I (as an atheist) don't want you to do this, but what's stopping you from committing suicide? You are going to heaven if you commit suicide because you would die. If you believe suicide is a sin, Jesus paid for that sin, because according to you, he paid for all sins.
Suicide is ultimately selfish. It is a sin to commit suicide.
If you commit suicide, because of depression, worldly affects, and self-hatred, then I can't tell you if you will go to heaven or not, but I can assume that you won't.
Now, if we use your mindset, and commit suicide because we know we will get a better life, that is self-serving, and it proves that you aren't really a Christian, because you just took your faith off of God and put it into yourself and your own plan to have a better life.
Belief alone doesn't get you into heaven. Demons believe in Jesus. The Devil believes in Jesus. They don't get to go to heaven.
So true faith in God's plan and word, belief in him, and accepting him as your Lord and Savior is what gets you into heaven.
Suicide is not part of Gods plan.
Therefore, if you commit suicide, then you are taking your faith out of Gods plan and word.
Christians: He only pays for repented sins.
This is false.
So, there you go.
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@Ball-425
Well consider this:1. The Father is God2. The Son is God3. The Holy Spirit is God4. The Father is not the Son5. The Father is not the Holy Spirit6. The Son is not the Holy SpiritTrinitarian Christians accept all of these propositions whilst denying polytheism, partialism, and modalism and trying to preserve a logical framework of identity.But given the above how could we accept all of those propositions and criteria and deny the conclusions of tritheism or logical contradiction?
This doesn't contradict itself though.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
But like you said:
The Father isn't the Son, nor the Son the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Father.
This doesn't contradict itself at all. Let me use my analogy again:
Your physical body is you.
Your soul is you.
Your logical mind is you.
But.
Your physical body is not your mind.
Your mind is not your soul.
Your soul is not your physical body.
It all makes logical sense.
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@Sam_Flynn
See. Once again you proved my point
😂ok buddy.
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@Sam_Flynn
Thank you for proving my point. To the proverbial "T"!
I think that's an Ad Hominem, but you didn't even give me a reasoning to why I am wrong.
Like:
You say - I'm wrong
I say - How
You say - You just proved my point.
Like I don't know how to respond to utter ridiculousness.
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@TheUnderdog
What about automatic green cards for immigrants? They automatically get a green card when they enter the US. They don't have to worry about deportation, and you don't have to worry about them turning the country permanently blue.
Are they an American citizen?
How specifically would you update the system other than an open border policy.
More funding. Almost anything can be solved with funding to the right places.
Name 1 trait you get from being undocumented that if an American Citizen, it justifies your deportation.
You don't have documentation.......................
But people born in America are required to..........
So, are you making the argument that if you just decide one day to come to America, you don't have to get documentation, but if your actually born here you should be required to?
So then have national borders be like state borders; Oregon would be different from Ohio, but an Oregon resident should be allowed to freely move into Ohio without fear of prosecution from the state simply because they didn't pay thousands of dollars in government fees to do go through Ohio's legalization process.
So, no countries? Just states?
Borders are a representation of where bad ideas stop, and good ideas start.
America > Latin America.
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@TheUnderdog
Who created hell? God did.
Nope.
Hell is simply defined as complete and total separation from God.
God cannot create something that does not involve him in any way shape or form.
To imply that God created Hell (God being all Good) would assume that Hell has good in it, which it does not.
1st commandment: You must worship God.3rd commandment: Using the Lord's name in vain is hate speech.1st amendment: Worship whoever you want. Hate speech is free speech.
Not Judeo-Christian laws. Judeo-Christian values.
The bible: Welcome strangers into your home.4th amendment: You should not be forced to welcome troops into your home (and by extension, everyone else).
Does the Bible say you must allow people into your home? No. It is simply a good thing and nice thing to do.
The constitution doesn't ban people from allowing people into their homes either.
The bible: God is your government, God is your state, and you should never rebel from your state.2nd amendment: A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Here you are taking a divine law that is based upon God and correlating it with a human-built society.
That doesn't work.
The Bible actually supports fighting back against oppressive societies. I mean just look at the story of Moses.
The bible: Threatens eternal intensity and duration punishment8th amendment: Forbids cruel and unusual punishment.
This is a lack of Biblical understanding.
God doesn't punish people by sending them to Hell. Again, God can't send people to Hell. He didn't create it. He can't send anyone to a place he didn't have a part in creating.
Humans send themselves into Hell, by a lack of faith in God, and (for post-Jesus followers of Jesus) denying Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
The bible: There is one law for all of mankind.10th amendment: States can make their own laws to an extent.
Again, taking a divine law based upon God, and then corelating it with a human-built society.
Let's look at one these sources shall we:
(Deuteronomy 17:12) states:
"The witnesses’ hands are to be the first in putting him to death, and after that, the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from you."
But if we look at the context the title of this passage is literally:
"The Judicial Procedure for Idolatry"
Do the U.S. laws have the death sentence for certain crimes as well? Yes, they do.
Now this is Old Testament law, which is very harsh as we see it now, but back then it was a harsh world, and they had to do harsher things back then in order to keep peace. We Christians have a new covenant in Christ, and live in a more civilized modern world, and don't have to go about the laws of the Jewish people.
So, my point is look for context.
An all powerful and all loving God just would fill the cliff with enough walkable rock to not kill anybody.
Clarify what you mean. I don't quite understand this statement.
Helping the poor sounds like a left wing idea.
No, it's an all-around idea.
For instance, you could use the "help the poor" card when arguing against immigration for the conservative side.
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@Best.Korea
Yet God created humans,
Yes.
causing the absence of God in humans.
No, the absence of God already existed, and humans chose it to use their free will.
He knew it will turn out like that. He still did it.
Yes. This has nothing to do with God creating Evil.
Sure you did. If you knew that your child is going to be a criminal, choosing to give birth to that child makes you responsible for why there is 1 more criminal in the world now.
And you not giving birth to the child makes you the reason why there is one less person in the world.
I think I can see the dilemma.
I value human life, over a perfect world.
You value a perfect world over a human life.
If you knew that your child will suffer greatly, choosing to give birth to that child makes you responsible for its suffering.
And causing it not to experience life at all is better how?
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@Sam_Flynn
I just have an issue with putting forth a lot of time, energy and effort into a sound debate on my part just have you cherry-pick words or phrases to build your strawman arguments; for you to go off on nonsensical tangents with absurd analogies and red herrings as I have read/seen you do with others; and your lack of reading comprehension skills whereby you clearly do not understand that which is being said, because it is over your head, and in a vain attempt to do so, you butcher the entirety of what was cogently put forth.
Ahh, so you're using the argument of it being a waste of your time, in order to get yourself out of a hole that you dug for yourself.
Let's be clear sir.
You responded to me first. You wished it upon yourself to intervene in the discussion yourself.
So, you were the one who joined into the discussion with me, but now you are calling it a waste of time, only when I offer a proper debate?
Wow.
So, you see, that's my dilemma. Do I really want to put in the time, energy and effort just to be predictably disappointed and lose all that time I will never get back again, or do I just ignore you in any thread/discussion concerning abortion because as it stands now
"...put in the time, energy and effort just to be predictably disappointed and lose all that time I will never get back again..." = Properly debating someone on a topic you are very passionate about and putting "so much energy"(typing on a keyboard) to win.
"...ignore you in any thread/discussion concerning abortion..." = Hiding from facts and truth.
Not only with responses to me, but many many others that I have read across the site.
Examples please, and please tag the person who you are referring to as well as me. I want to see what they have to say about it.
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@Best.Korea
It doesnt until you realize that your God has omniscience and knows outcomes in advance.
Knowing something in advance does not = creating that thing.
Even if you knew that your child would suffer and go through those self-inflicted hardships, you still did not create those hard ships.
Now we can argue about that being moral or not, but the fact is that God didn't create the Evil.
The absence of God in humans was not a possibility before humans existed.
Lucifer.
"Absence of God" "in" "humans" are three conditions, all of which must be met in order for there be an absence of God in humans.There must be humans.There must be absence of God.Absence of God must be in humans.The sentence clearly tells us that absence of God is located in humans.
Again, strawman. Stop misrepresenting my point.
I am saying that purely evil in of itself is in its purest form, the absence of God.
The absence of God (evil) had already existed before humans did.
That is the claim that I am making.
I am not saying that the absence of God in humans existed before humans. That's a ridiculous statement.
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@Best.Korea
God created humans. Humans chose the absence of good(God).
To separate themselves from God, yes.
Therefore, God caused the absence of good(God) in humans.
But the absence of God was already a possibility before humans existed.
Your logic is equivalent to me saying:
I created a child. That child despite my best efforts chose to separate itself from me, therefore I created that separation.
It doesn't't make sense.
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@Best.Korea
No you haven't.
Your point doesn't stand, if your point is fundamentally wrong. And it is.
So how do you refute that.
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@TheUnderdog
My view on it is very simple.
If you want to become an American citizen, you must apply to become a citizen.
Now obviously the system we have right now is very bad and needs to be updated.
But the point is clear.
In order to be a country, you have to have a border in order to separate yourself from other countries. If the border doesn't do its job, then your country doesn't have a border.
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@Best.Korea
I have already explained to you the causation link. I am not going in circles with you anymore.
So, you just don't want to address the point.
You are saying:
God created humans. Humans created evil. Thus, God created evil.
There are fundamental problems with this statement.
1. Humans did not create evil. Evil is in its purest form, the absence of good, which is God.
Therefore, God creating humans does has nothing to do with the creation of evil.
So, the argument you are making is fundamentally wrong.
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@Best.Korea
Its immoral to create evil people and then burn them alive for eternity.
See, right here. This is where you once again, misunderstand Christianity. It is a strawman to Christianity itself.
God doesn't burn people alive for eternity. People choose to separate themselves from God.
It just makes God himself evil, so now he must burn himself too.
That argument only works if God sends people to Hell, which he doesn't.
You have been trying to ignore and dodge this point a lot, so please respond to it.
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@Best.Korea
If you knew that your child will be evil, then yes, its your fault for that evil since you willingly and knowingly took action to bring that evil into existence.
See this is where we fundamentally disagree.
I am saying that everyone no matter their outcome deserves life.
You are saying that if someone's outcome is evil, then they don't deserve life.
You are actually advocating for the idea, that evil people don't deserve to live.
I am saying they deserve to live, no matter the outcome, because everyone deserves life.
Of course, I already answered this once, but you ignored the answer just so that you could pretend to defend 2000 year old nonsense which doesnt stand up to this century's criticism.
If you feel as if I have ignored your questioning before I apologize, but I have now addressed it.
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@Stephen
So you preferer to totally ignore the holy scriptures and rewrite them.
See now that's a strawman.
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@Stephen
So you don't know the scriptures but you believe you know I "take them out of context".
I would call that a strawman, but you're not even misrepresenting what I said, you are just plainly ignoring what I said.
I know the scriptures. You don't understand them in their complexity. At least from what I have seen.
Why do we not take a close look at those verses in fullGenesis 2:1-5New International VersionThus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[ and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground,Do you see that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^STUPID!
So, again 😂what is your point with this verse.
I am very confused at the point you are trying to make.
I am not surprised, when you cannot even read the BIBLE in context
Well now you're taking my words out of context too.
I said I don't know, but...etc.
And the biblical references for that are ?
Well, one of the obvious ones is Romans 8:28:
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
God is a divine being, so we are called to his divine purpose.
There are also many other scriptures as well.
To create more people to "till the land " and "subdue it", Genesis 1:28, you absolute clown.
No.
See you can't even take my question into context.
I am talking about in general. Not what the Bible says about it. In general.
Especially today when there is little need from all children to "till the land" and "subdue it".
Why?
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@TheUnderdog
Me: I personally don't like Christainity and I don't consider myself to be Christain. My main reason is that if God burns people in hell forever, I think he violates the 8th amendment (and the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible) and I don't care how many Christians I piss off from saying that.
Well, I'm not necessarily pissed off from you saying that. Everyone has a right to free thought, and everyone has reasons for their opinions.
What I saw in what you said however is a lack of understanding of Christianity, as well as the U.S. Constitution.
1. Firstly, God doesn't send people to hell. If you look at the Christian Doctrine, it says we are all sinners, and doers of evil. Evil according to Christianity is purely the absence of God, and Hell is purely separation from God. So, when we do evil, we are further and further separating ourselves from God.
Now we have this problem. Because no one (not one) is good, and we all do evil, so therefore we are all in some way shape or form, separated from God. So, we are all on our way to Hell.
The Mirical of Christianity is:
God loved us so much, that he sent down his son in the form of a man (in order to keep covenant relationship with humanity) to live a sinless life (to be the intercessor between good (God) and man). Then die a painful agonizing death, suffering not only physical pain, but spiritual pain, in taking all past, present, and future sins of all people.
And it is a beautiful contrast between Jesus (who is all good) taking the punishment of man (flawed). It is almost unfair. But it shows God's mercy.
2. Secondly you said:
the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible
But you fail to understand that these legal documents were based off of Judeo Christain values.
So, the values in these documents had a source, and the source is the Bible.
So, you actually do base your source of morality on a document that is based off of the values of the Bible.
But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech. If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it. But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.
No where in the Bible will you find God commanding his followers to persecute any group of people. And I use the word persecute for a reason.
He purely condemns it.
The Bible teaches that God is a just God, and he alone will have his vengeance, meaning our role as Christians is not to defend God, but to be messengers of his word.
I'm LGBT, but I would rather be called degenerate than burn in hell forever under any circumstances whether LGBT or not.I hate Christainity more over it's threats of eternal hellfire (if accurate) than I am about any anti alphabet attitudes it may have.
All I can respond to this with, is Jesus loves you and wants you to follow his plan according to his word.
And I will say, the advocates for Christianity, who use threats as a means to try and convert people to Christ's words are not basing their teachings off of Biblical principles and should not be taken seriously.
God doesn't threaten anyone either. Again:
We are all doers of Evil. Evil by our own accords = separation from God. Separation from God = Hell.
So, think of it like this:
Imagine hundreds of people walking off of a cliff's edge. Each step represents a purposeful act of Evil. The cliff's edge represents total separation from God. They are walking away from God.
Now imagine a man in the crowd (Jesus) stopping people and pleading with them to turn around. Some turn around, others keep going.
The steps going opposite of the cliff represent dying to your own wants and desires and having faith in the man (Jesus) and turning away from Evil.
But everyone goes to heaven. Jesus paid for everyone's sins, so you go to heaven no matter what.you may say.Then why do I have to worship God? I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic.
The Bible teaches that salvation is based upon faith in Christ alone.
Now some people might tell themselves," I have faith in Christ, and I'm going to heaven no matter what I do now".
But that is not real faith.
Real faith produces good works. Real faith changes you.
Having faith in the Bible, means leaving whatever you desire or want in your life now, and dying to yourself (metaphorically of course) and having faith in how Jesus tells us to live our lives.
For example: If Jesus tells us to help the poor, but we ignore them every time we see them, we don't really have faith in Christ, because if we did, we would be living like Jesus tells us to live.
Worship is merely an expression of our love for God. That's what God wants, because God doesn't want you to have faith in someone you don't love. Otherwise, it is simply for personal gain.
The Bible teaches that you can know everything there is to know about the Bible, but if you don't have love, you are a (as the Bible puts it) a resounding Gong. An annoying noise.
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@IlDiavolo
I heard that this is an old practice of some primitive civilizations. It's insane as many other practices that we see today in shitty countries. So there is nothing to discuss unless you tell us what the excuse is of Muslims to keep doing it.
Well, the whole religion of Islam is based upon the Prophet Muhammed, who is the pattern of conduct for all Muslims according to Islam.
So, if the Prophet of Islam is proven to have been a pedophile, it is probably safe to say that his revelations were not from a divine origin.
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@Sam_Flynn
Cannot because you "lack the requisite education and experience to have this debate/discussion."
Then it will be an easy win for you right?
Any way you twist it, you are just trying to get out of a debate you know you can't win.
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@Best.Korea
Its not same with God.If I knew that the person I make will be a bad person and will burn alive for eternity, it would be immoral to make that person.So yes, people who give birth to children to a certain extent have excuse of not knowing. Your God doesnt, as he has omniscience.
Knowing and doing are two different things.
God knows that some of us will fall, and others will rise.
Nonetheless, he is a fair God, and gives all a chance for salvation.
To do otherwise wouldn't be fair.
Life is a gift, and we choose how to use it. Not God.
I feel like they are trying to re-write the Bible.Bible in its original literal understanding is morally impossible to defend.
Really, because ethically and morally, it is one of the most astounding pieces of literature we have to date. Given the fact it was written over thousands of years, with about 40 different authors and has over 60,000+ cross references.
I understand why they are going for methaphorical understanding, but thats just going to add divisions to Christianity as each group has different understanding.It would be desirable for Christians if some new Bible came to replace the old Bible, or just take out undesirable parts of the current Bible.By undesirable, I mean parts about Hell, or about God killing or torturing people, or about God creating people.
See but your wrong. Again God does not:
Torture.
or
Murder
People.
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@Best.Korea
So when Jesus called people evil, he lied?
He called peoples intentions and acts evil.
He calls them in the original Hebrew:
"You doers of evil."
Or he calls them sinful.
Free will doesnt solve the puzzle either.Your Bible says that God created a man.Therefore, even if God gave him free will, any bad deeds resulting from free will would be a result of God's action of giving free will.
If your child grows up, and they do as they please, and then blame you for their bad deeds, is that logical?
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@Stephen
I keep having to remind you, you do not know your scriptures. I am not surprised you don't know why, although the bible makes clear why humans were created.READ GENESIS 2:5"there was not a man to till the ground".
I do know the scriptures.
But I also know that you are very well known for taking them out of biblical context to use for your arguments.
Genisis 2:1-5 (lets also look at the context):
So, the heavens and the earth and everything in them were completed. On the seventh day God had completed his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it he rested from all his work of creation.
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, no shrub of the field had yet grown on the land, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not made it rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground.
So, I don't know exactly what you are talking about here, but I know for a fact it's not talking about how God wanted to create us for his enjoyment, let alone explaining why he created us.
why did god create anything at all in the first place?<<< maybe you can answer that for us?
A short answer is:
I do not know.
But can you answer the question of:
Why do couples decide to have children.
You can't answer that because you aren't the parents. You do not know.
In the same way, you are not God. You don't know. I don't know. No one knows.
All that I can say is that he created us for a divine purpose.
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@Best.Korea
You still dont understand how causation works. The watch didnt create the time.
That's my whole point.
Are you saying that evil people existed before God created them? Because you are making no sense.
Evil people (according to the bible) don't exist.
According to the Bible, Evil by definition is simply the absence of God.
Just like the cold is the absence of heat.
Just like darkness is the absence of light.
Evil is the absence of God.
So evil never came into existence like you would think of a force.
It is simply the absence of.
You do realize that changing words changes nothing in the argument?Replacing "creates evil" with "tune into evil", still the same cause: God.
Evil wasn't created by God.
It would be illogical to assume that God can create something that he is the absence of.
Evil is the absence of God. Therefore, God could not have created Evil.
Evil is not a created thing. It is simply the absence of God.
So God creates people. People tune into evil. Therefore, God caused those people to tune into evil.
God never caused anyone to do anything against their own will.
We as humans have always had free will.
So, God can't force anyone to do anything.
Also, God did not create Evil. It would be illogical.
So, God can't force us into something he didn't create. He can only try to convince us to stay away from the absence of him.
If you say: "no, he didnt", you would be again just denying the obvious causation, where people who tune into evil are result of God's action of creating them.
But God originally created us to live freely with him. We chose to side with the absence of him = Evil
We decided to give into evil which is the separation of God.
If he didnt create them, they wouldnt tune into evil and he wouldnt have to torture them forever.
Again, you don't understand.
According to the Bible God does not send people to hell.
According to the Bible, God did not create Evil.
According to the Bible, God created us to have relationship with him.
For example:
Let's say you want to have a kid. So, you have a kid.
Then when that kid grows up, he blames you for all his struggles and pain.
He accuses you of creating the source of all his problems.
That is illogical, because you created the child for a different purpose. For a relationship.
Now why did you create that kid? I don't know.
Same with God.
There is no word which you can use about evil people, without God being the cause of them being evil.
According to the Bible, there are no Evil people.
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@Tradesecret
The issue is not the act of sin. The issue is when people reject Christ. Everything else can be forgiven. And the interesting thing is - even rejecting Christ can be forgiven while you are still alive. It is when you die, and where your loyalties lie at that point that determine your destiny.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Evil is the absence of God.
Giving into evil and doing evil things is rejecting God.
Specifically, Christ who died to take that evil from you.
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@Best.Korea
You do know how causation works?God created humans. Humans created evil. Thus, God created evil.There is simply no way to break the causation chain of responsibility, as your all knowing God knew in advance which humans will go to Hell for eternity. He still created them, therefore doomed them to eternity of pointless suffering.
If I create a watch, and that watch tells time, did I create time?
Well, you might say no, because time has always existed before the watch has.
And you would be right.
Same goes with evil. Evil is simply the absence of God.
Evil has always existed, before humans were created.
You can't create evil. You can tune into evil, by separation from God, but it's not a substance you can create.
Like the cold.
Cold doesn't exist. It is the absence of light.
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@Best.Korea
Let's go through one by one:
1. I dont want to kill gays.2. I dont want to kill trans.
People who use Christianity to justify the killing of any person for any reason is not representing Christianity correctly in the slightest.
As Christians, we are called by Jesus Christ to love everyone, including homosexuals, and transgender persons. We are not called to agree with them, because there lifestyle is unbiblical, but we are called to love and respect all people.
So, if you're a Christain, you don't kill homosexual or transgender people.
3. I dont want to praise a God who after creating people, tortures those people by burning them alive for all eternity.
1. I don't know why God created us, but to assume that he just created us for the sole purpose of his enjoyment is illogical, because the Bible made it clear, that the Triune God before creation was in perfect unity with himself. The reason why he created us is unknown, but we know that he didn't create us to burn us alive, or to play a cruel game with us.
Genisis tells us in the creation story (after every day of creation) that "it was good". For God to say something is good, assumes that there was no evil in it. The world before man fell was perfect. God created a perfect world for us.
The only reason we suffer now, is because God gave us free will, and we chose to tell God to bug off. He respected that decision and left us. That is what sin is. The absence of God.
So, God created us, but we suffer by our own doing.
4. I dont think its okay to rape women.
Neither does Christianity. The Bible condemns rape in many passages.
5. I dont think its okay to beat children.
The Bible doesn't think it is ok to beat children either. It only teaches to discipline your children.
6. I dont want to live a life thinking that I am a sinner just because I was born.
Jesus was born, but he wasn't a sinner.
See, you're not a sinner because you are born, but you are a sinner because you have sinned.
When the Bible talks about original sin, it does not mean we are all sinful the moment we are conceived. It means that we have a sinful nature as humans.
There is a reason, that the tree in the garden was named the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Once they ate it, they knew evil from good, and with their free will, they could do now do evil.
And because of that, you know what good is, and what evil is. And because of their decision, you have a sinful nature.
So, you aren't born a sinner. You are born with a sinful nature, that can be fought against.
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@Sam_Flynn
You lack the requisite education and experience to have this debate/discussion.
If you really think that, have an actual real comprehensive debate with me on the subject. I will be happy to make one for you or accept one from you.
I made myself plain and clear with scientific and reality-based arguments.
Show me one resource you have provided. Not claim. Resource.
You're replying sophomorically. No facts, just subjective emotiveness.
No, I am replying ethically, logically, and scientifically.
Not going to waste my time replying to a child who lacks the sufficient life experience and education to have this discussion.
Ad Hominem
Good luck with others on this.
Thank you.
And don't try to hammer me with a bunch of whining about this and that merely because I wouldn't engage you further.
Well, you are getting pretty hammered when it comes to the argument. So, thank you for pointing that out.
If you do, you only prove my point.
What is your exact point exactly?
I now agree to disagree.
"I now agree to disagree" = "I can't make any more arguments to this comprehensive discussion"
Also don't try to take the moral high ground here. If anything, you have been ultimately disrespectful to me in this discussion, and I have tried my best to not retaliate with Ad Hominem attacks.
For instance:
"You need to rethink it, dumbass.""Intellectual coward denialist."".... you are so fucking daft.""Dumbass."".... you callous little shit.""If only your dumbass would be tossed....""Dumbass.""Damn you are so naive."
And those are just a couple from your arguments, so don't try to play morals with me.
If you want to have a proper debate on the subject, I will happily accept. Otherwise, good day.
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