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@ADreamOfLiberty
If your society's protection of rights allows money to buy theft and slavery it's not very liberal is it.
Our rights are protected in the USA now. Human nature being what it is, it's still hard to assert those rights sometimes. I think it would be even harder in a libertarian society. Even now, a rich person can keep a case tied up in the court system beyond the ability of a poor person to press their case. We know that very rich people expect to get what they want, all the time. With fewer legal constraints, a rich person in a libertarian society would get their way all the time. Feudalism is one possible outcome, with private police forces being openly advocated by libertarians now.
Humans will manage to corrupt any system. I like our system because it institutionalized ways to balance power. That's why would-be dictators like Trump should be opposed. He exploited the cracks in our system and will probably get away with it, leaving the door open for someone smarter, like DiSantis, to smash the system altogether.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Without objective morality, why shouldn't I just kill you and take your money and then rape your wife if I can get away with it?
Because you’d have to be watching your back all the time, sleeping only intermittently, trusting no one and having to do everything yourself. Who would want to live in such a society? Only sociopaths.
Those who choose to value everyone's liberty, by that choice limit the range of values and behaviors they can logically hold. The liberty I was referring to (and am always referring to in a social ethics context) is the abstract liberty.
More common ground.
No I agree with the libertarian platform more than any other political policy sheet in the world.
When I consider the consequences of a libertarian society, I end up with feudalism. The rich and powerful would rule; others would align themselves with an individual ruler and be subservient to them (most likely “him”). Upward mobility would be rare.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
#80:
Humans are fallible. No human belief was, is, or ever will be a deductive means of determining the truth.
Finally some common ground!
If there is no morality, what is law but the game theory that allows us to live together, deserving no respect the moment the violence of the government can be escaped by concealment or first-strike?
This is weird.
Worldviews, that is packaged systems of philosophy, religion, or culture; are a bit like genes. They reproduce, the compete for limited resources (people's minds), and sometimes they go extinct.
Yes! more common ground.
The era of natural selection is over. Now is the era of intelligent selection. What we choose to value matters more than accidents of genetics.
not quite yet
equilibrium, or peace, will be found in the system of values and code of behavior with no contradictions.
good luck finding that system
Like all the equations agreeing at once Liberty minimizes conflict not because it was designed to, but because conflict comes from contradictions in values. If the only permissible values and behaviors comply with liberty their holders are by definition compatible.
How can some values & behaviors being impermissible be compatible with liberty?
Liberty is the most fit of all ethics because it is logical and universal (both together mean objective).
I noticed that you don’t use the word libertarian or libertarianism. Do you not agree with them?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Unfortunately for us, Republicans have put 16 or the last 20 justices on the Supreme Court of the USA. There is not much we can do with the country so divided and right-wingers in control of SCOTUS. It's depressing, so I don't dwell on it.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
That was the union claim, it was not the legal truth.
So we disagree about that.
Objective morality should be followed, laws should reflect objective morality, and when they do they deserve to be followed.
I also disagree that there is such a thing as objective morality. Morality evolves and varies from society to society.
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@PREZ-HILTON
I may have extrapolated more from your statement than I should have. I agree with your statement but thought you were implying based on my conversation that since no law is that terrible than the laws should be obeyed. Was I wrong to think that?
What I believe is that, in general, laws should be obeyed. I also believe that civil disobedience is ok in some cases. I think that some on the right advocate disobedience about laws which don't seem that onerous to me. That is, not onerous enough to motivate thoughts about civil war. Civil war is the most extreme response, and I don't see anything in my life or in the news that warrants that response. Obviously, some people disagree with me about that. I think that calm discussions about our differences is a good thing.
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@Athias
You are overgeneralizing our position.
Everyone has the right to bear "arms." A rifle is an arm. A pistol is an arm. A shotgun is an arm. No one is advocating outlawing those arms.
Does everyone have a right bear any weapon whatsoever? If the answer is no, then you have to decide where to draw the line between arms which are permitted and those which are not permitted.
A nuclear weapon? No. A tank? No. Where then?
I say automatic weapons do more harm than good. They allow maniacs to kill many people in a short period of time. They should be outlawed outside the military. Law abiding citizens could still arm themselves with non-automatic weapons. Why is that such a terrible idea?
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@PREZ-HILTON
I'm saying that currently there is no law so unjust as one permitting slavery.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Oh it was US troops on foreign territory that refused to get out.... that's an act of war.
South Carolina was not a foreign territory at that time.
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@PREZ-HILTON
Is it your claim that there are zero unfair laws?
Of course not. Today there is no law comparable to legalized slavery.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
In the Senate, Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) is blocking more than 150 Defense Department nominations because he objects to the Pentagon’s abortion policy
Of course he is. He has the brain of a tuber.
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@PREZ-HILTON
Do you think the government was right to enforce laws allowing slavery?
It's not the same "the government" now as the ones that enforced slavery. There is no comparable law now.
Right-wing claims of tyranny about mask and vaccine mandates are less than convincing. They need something much stronger to justify civil war.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I'm talking about the violations of the constitution Lincoln did to win the war he started.
The South started the war with the attack on Fort Sumter.
Before that, Lincoln was considering not fighting secession.
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@Mharman
I think the issue deserves more than "thoughts and prayers" in response to massacres with automatic weapons.
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@Greyparrot
@TWS1405_2
Yes, "people kill people, but guns help."
I meant that people would still be able to defend themselves at home and other places most of the time. Not during a massacre.
Is there any number of child murders that would cause you to consider gun control?
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@TWS1405_2
There would be fewer mass shootings if "automatic" type weapons were outlawed. People could still defend themselves in most situations without them.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Trump is the leader of the fascist wing of the Republican Party.
DeSantis is the would-be leader of that wing.
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@YouFound_Lxam
If Trump is right about 2020, he is ineligible for 2024.
The 22nd amendment to the US Constitution says,
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice .... "
Note that the text says "elected" not "served."
If you agree that Trump won in 2020, then he is definitely prohibited from running again.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
☆♡☆♡☆♡ CHRISTIANS ONLY HANG AROUND JUST CHRISTIANS ♡☆♡☆♡☆
Actually, this is the first forum I've seen where atheists and Christians go at it all the time. On the atheist sites, the xians drive by, shoot, and are never seen again. The xian sites don't allow the unclean atheists. This is a great forum.
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@Best.Korea
You should ask him that when you see him. I have no need to explain to you that people change their thinking over time.
Thank you for your consideration.
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@Best.Korea
Since they are talking about Abraham here, I have a question about him.
Why did he argue with God about destroying Sodom & Gomorrah, yet unquestioningly prepared to kill his son at God's behest?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Now that you mention, it does. I hadn't thought about it that way, probably because my sources talk about it with respect to conservatism, whereas I don't hear anything about the reverse. Thank you for pointing that out.
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@oromagi
Many of those same points are discussed at length in The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt (2012).
That book gave me more insight into the differences between conservatives and liberals without demeaning either.
liberals' top moral concerns tend to be about compassion and fairness, while conservatives are more concerned with loyalty, tradition, respect for authority, and purity.
That is one of the biggies. It helps to explain why conservatives appear to vote against their economic best interests. Their values, and the strengths thereof, differ from those of liberals.
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@Tradesecret
Your last post was an interesting one. I agree that there are many questions about life and the world we live in, and I'm glad that you acknowledge that.
First, I need to get something off my chest. You referred to the gospel, as many Christians do, as "good news." That sounds weird to me, because the gospel is no longer news. It's been around for 2000 years and in the USA everyone over the age of 5 has already heard about it.
Second, if you believe the Bible, God is the source of evil. Isaiah 45:7 says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (KJV) So it's not right to blame humans for evil, since God has already taken responsibility for it.
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@Tradesecret
Thank you for explaining what you meant.
The truth is, I'm not interested in believing or becoming a Christian. But I sincerely responded to the question, "What would it take?" There is no doubt in my mind that a personal miracle would be very convincing to me. When you replied that you wouldn't believe me then, it really sounded weird, like why are you even talking to atheists? That's no way to convert people (if indeed that is what you are trying to do).
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@Tradesecret
It sounds like there is no way for me to become a believer then.
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@Tradesecret
I have no good reason to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Do you honestly think I would not believe that my own mother being raised was sufficient reason? You don't even know me. You think that Bible verse is all you need to know? You and I must be living in different worlds.
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@sadolite
You are one of those gloom and doom types. You might be right, and you might not.
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@Melcharaz
Logic is not subjective; people are subjective.
a==b
a==c
therefore
b==c
that's not subjective. You might deny it, but you would be wrong.
BTW, an "all-knowing" being is a human construct and could not exist.
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@sadolite
Wake up, you are on your own. No one in govt is looking out for your best interests and never will.
Of course. But ...
Some politicians are worse than others, some more criminal than others, etc. The worst seem to have gravitated to the Republicans.
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@Stephen
But don't expect some jumped up self aggrandising Pastor or Priest to rise to your request.I don't. But they asked, and I answered.
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@badger
I understand that.
I still would like to know whether you think that feeling is equivalent to awareness.
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@Tradesecret
What sort of proof would an atheist accept to prove to them that they are wrong?That's an easy one. A miracle would suffice. Bring my mother back from the dead and I would believe. The Christian god supposedly has the power to do that.
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@badger
If feeling is awareness, then I agree with you.
An AI could be aware of its inner & outer activities, and its experience would be qualitatively different from that of a human. That difference should not be the criteria for consciousness, because the two kinds of brains are differently embodied. Humans seem to think that the quality of their feelings are an important part of consciousness. I don't think so.
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@zedvictor4
I agree with zedvictor4’s post #6.
Consciousness is a simulation of an assumed reality, derived from incoming sensory signalling via an energized organic substrate.
According to Thomas Metzinger ( The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind & the Myth of the Self), the human brain creates a model of the world around us. We cannot experience the world directly, but only through our perceptions as processed by our brain. “Consciousness is the appearance of a world. ... a single and unified reality ….” It is a representation of our world, and the fact that this representation is transparent to us, enables us to think of it as “reality.”
The human brain also creates a “self,” a mental model of the organism as a whole. The myth of a real self emerges from this process because the fact that it is a model is transparent to us, much like a fish supposedly not knowing that it lives in water.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Now Atheists usually can't explain how the universe came to be ...
So, in order for our universe to make sense there had to have been a beginning. But whatever started that beginning had to have been more powerful than the dominoes (time/space/matter) and exist outside that reality.
How about this:
I don't know how the universe came to be; it is a mystery.
Christians claim to know that the universe was created by their god.
Everything besides the origin of the universe can be explained by scientific means. So there is only one mystery.
The claim that the Christian god created the universe comes with many other mysteries (the trinity, transubstantiation, a supernatural world populated by supernatural beings).
The scientific claim is superior to the Christian one because it explains what happened after the origin with no more mysteries, whereas
the Christian explanation introduces many other mysteries which cannot be explained.
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@Skipper_Sr
How about the topic, "The two genealogies for Jesus in the Bible cannot be reconciled?"
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@Stephen
I'm interested but I'll have to try the local libraries ... the book sells for $100 or more.
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@SkepticalOne
Please forgive me. I must have lost control of myself.
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@Stephen
I agree. I try to stay open-minded as much as I can. I am no longer open-minded about Trump, however. He is a criminal who should not be allowed to hold public office again.
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@zedvictor4
Thanks for letting me know. I'm still putting them on my s_ _t list until further notice.
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@Best.Korea
I knew that you would spin these verses to conform with your theology. It is obvious that you will believe what you want to believe no matter what the Bible says. You are not a Christian, you are . . . something else.
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@Stephen
You've given me a lot to study now. I want to integrate it with what I thought I knew about this topic. Thank you.
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@TheUnderdog
You are out of your mind. You would vote for an insane criminal. Game over.
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@TheUnderdog
You should not vote for Trump because he is a thoroughgoing narcissist.
He is willing to sell out his country to benefit himself. He claimed that Pence should have violated the Constitution to preserve his presidency against the will of the voters.
What else do you need to not vote for him?
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@Best.Korea
Exodus 21:22 clearly shows that the life of the mother was considered more valuable than the life of an unborn child.
Leviticus 27:2 and Numbers 3:15 show that children less than one month old were not considered people.
Genesis 28:34 shows that abortion was sanctioned.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
District Court Judge Francis Mathew is guilty of sedition against the United States of America and it would be no great injustice if he was "judicially" introduced to a bullet.
WTF!?
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@Stephen
And was he the "dead" brother?
Now that is an interesting question.
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@Stephen
This sounds good so far. I think it continues that Akhenaten / Moses and some of his followers leave, or get kicked out of Egypt, and take the Israelites with them to Sinai.
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