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bronskibeat

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Are student protests in USA, related to Palestine, going to have any effect?
Student protest has existed for a long time, does it have impact? Not always. But it can help better contextualize a moment when we look back on it through a historical lens. When looking back on this time, it will be difficult not to include discussion of protests when revisiting the actions of Israel, and so...at the very least, the question of whether or not Israel was correct in their handling of this time will always be apart of the conversation.
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@WyIted
I don't think this supports what you are saying. The link is talking about physical arousal to stimulation. It seems to be about rape victims who reached orgasm. The physical response to physical stimulation is not something controllable. I assume it is like when the prostate is used by doctors to force ejaculation, or whatever that technique is.  I think we are talking about arousal from seeing or thinking about certain things. Like you know looking at somebody bend over. If you are a female and you get sexually aroused by a female bending over then I think it's safe to think you are attracted to women. This would be different than somebody forcing your nerve ending to be stimulated and then thinking that has anything to do with attraction
If you follow the linked resources, particularly Emily Nagoski, she speaks on non-concordance from visual stimuli. Essentially, something just has to be sexually relevant to produce blood flow, but it doesn’t result in your brain actually experiencing attraction or desire. This would explain why so many women in the study you provided experienced consistent arousal across visual stimuli but didn’t consistently report desire/attraction.

Anyway, I’m headed on vacation, so I won’t responding for a few weeks. Byeee.

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@WyIted
Studies that actually test for attraction prove my theory that all women are attracted to other women. 


Finally. Thank you.

You fell for the first part, the clickbait headline: “No women are totally straight.” It’s catchy, but not actually what the study found. The study concluded that 30% of women show exclusive attraction to the opposite sex. Certainly more than “never,” but still suggests that the majority of women experience some blood flow at the sexual imagery involving the same sex.

The findings are similar to something that has been observed of women in other research, and that’s many women experience physical arousal at any visual representation of sex (this include with animals, and in one study…an “erotic” looking piece of wood.) But as the study you provided mentioned, this experience of arousal often does not translate into desire. This would be known as arousal non-concordance: https://psychpd.com.au/arousal-non-concordance-and-involuntary-sexual-response/#:~:text=“Arousal%20non%2Dconcordance%20is%20the,turned%20on%20they%20feel%27.”

EDIT: I’ve removed any reference to your personal life, because you appear to be dealing with something, and I think that much of your perspective on female sexuality is the result of a personal defense mechanism to ignore an uncomfortable reality going on in your life. But, again, I’m going to refrain from any low-blows. 

Honestly go on lezbian Twitter they all claim to fuck heterosexual women . Better yet gey a girlfriend and see if they are down for sex with another woman. 
It’s pretty well established within the lesbian community that if you’re dating a woman, then she’s either lesbian or bisexual. The lesbians who claim they’re sleeping with straight women are simply stroking their own egos.

Now,  I have to point out, the study you offered does contradict your claim that lesbians don’t exist. Has your view changed on that or do you cherry pick based on what is convenient for your personal narrative?
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@WyIted
It doesn't matter what you believe. The points how those in power many of whom are occultists thinks.
It’s doublespeak, it’s nothing new or fancy.

I’m not going to bother quoting the rest as your personal life is your business. I’ll just reiterate the following:

You don't offer any research, studies, or data to back-up your claims. You rely heavily on anecdotes to support your arguments (your TV viewing habits as a child, your relationships with women, a youtube video you saw, etc.). And anecdotes are fine, but they should be sprinkled on top of an argument supported by actual evidence.



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@WyIted
So to correctly understand your claim. You claim language has not changed in even a single artificial way that was top down as opposed to more naturally.
Pertaining specifically to the examples you offered in your previous post(oriental to Asian-American, negro to Black, queer as an umbrella term), no.

Your second claim here just to understand it is that it is these communities themselves changing how they are referred to, to spite white people? 
No. It's to have the same level of ownership of identity that white people in America have always had.

That reality is if whites called blackest African Americans 50 years ago that perhaps they would prefer to be called pizzas now or some other random word?
I'm not sure what this sentence says.

We are also going to ignore the fact that white people are on behalf of others telling them how they should feel about words like oriental or negro? 
White people should never tell a marginalized person how they should feel about a certain word to describe themselves. If a black person would prefer the word "negro," then they have every right to use it without being criticized by a white person.

So to disprove your claims it seems like  just need to find one instance of a top down manipulation of language..is this true?
No. I'm not claiming that no word ever has been a top-down influence, because I don't know that to be true. I'm speaking specifically within the context of the examples you offered.

I personally wouldn't tell you too much because I have been warned about sharing secrets with the uninitiated and a lot of it is pointless without foundational knowledge anyway. 
It probably wouldn't help that I don't believe in demons or anything associated anyway. But, of course, people can use language to manipulate others. We agree there.

In this thread I pointed to the overgeneralization of words for the mot part to be more inclusive of people in the LGBT community.  The expansion of terms like queer or bisexuality to include more people.  I can tell you why this is done on one level anyway. 
Bisexuality hasn't been expanded, it just means people who are attracted to both genders. And, as I pointed out, "queer" has always been used to describe bisexual and gender non-conforming people for about as long as it's been used to describe gay men.

The left is essentially saying "let's normalize being queer" you can only do that by creating 75 genders and dividing everybody among them and shrinking the definition of heterosexual. Everyone knows that gender and sex are a spectrum. We consider most of the spectrum or did to be heterosexual. They have expanded the definition of queer to include more of the spectrum and used the term cisgender as a type of pejorative. It's the one incorrect gender so now kids will furiously search for one of the 75 genders to describe themselves as. It's easy for females because a lot are tomboys but nearly every female has some sort of sexual attraction towards other women. 
It's a bit more complicated than that: In the real world, you are cis, straight, or nonbinary. Of course, there is the topic of pronouns. For the most part you are either using he/him, she/her, they/them, or some combination. If we are talking about neopronouns, they are far less common, but they date back to the 1800s ("ze" was in the Webster's Dictionary from 1934 to 1961). In the 90s, you had trans-activist/authors like Kate Bornstein who used neopronouns for a character in one of her novels, and Leslie Feinberg who used neopronouns for themselves (who was introduced to it by specific lesbian spaces). Really, it was the popularity of "Stone Butch Blues" within the lesbian community where you saw people become more aware of neopronouns (and subsequently, some adopt for themselves). In my experience, it is very rare to encounter someone use uses neopronouns or identifies as nonbinary who isn't either transgender, gay, or bisexual. Meaning, the cis straight people, are still cis and straight. And considering that cis people still make up the majority of the LGBT+ community, I wouldn't say it's considered pejorative.

Now, I'll finally address your claims about female sexuality: Most women are straight, and don't have sexual or romantic attraction to other women (studies show around 81% of women experience exclusive attraction the opposite sex).

The reason you would want to expand the definition from their perspective us because the more people who see themselves as LGBT the more accepting of Trans individuals or homosexuality the community will be as a whole. 
This shows a pretty fundamental understanding of the intentions within the LGBT+ community.

Within the LGBT+ community there is a term called "spicy-straights," this is in reference to straight people who believe that being poly or having a queer partner someone how makes them a part of the community. They are made fun of. The LGBT+ does not want to expand by including people who are not either genuinely attracted to the same sex or are transgender. That's the reality. If you're a some guy who looks like Billy Joel from Green Day and only dates women, but identifies as "nonbinary," you're being looked at as suspicious and annoying. The LGBT+ does not want to expand by accepting people who are cis/straight but go by some random label, that's the opposite of what's wanted.

The reality is: you can re-label heterosexuality but you can never erase it. However, heterosexuality can very easily erase "queer" or "lgbt+" identities and spaces.

It should also be pointed out that culture kind of flows downstream you have these academics in their ivory towers and you can read their books on this exact process and why the expansion of the term is important and people will laugh and say it is just some Crack academics but the academics influence "thought leaders" who influences people who consume a lot of low brow content who then influence their friends and neighbors.
I think a more accurate flow chart would be: community spaces > academia > mainstream. Before "nonbinary," people used the term "genderqueer." "Genderqueer" was born out of independent 'zines in the 1980s, and then academics began writing papers on it, and that's when the mainstream finds out about it. 

You think my opinions are born from personal experience and I think yours are from brainwashing that tells you that your grandparents and previous generations were all rabbit racists who lynched black people for the slightest infractions and didn't want to share pies with them. 

It's of no use to speculate where we each collected our biases. My envisioning of you and your envisioning of me are perhaps useful when communicating with each other but are very unlikely to reflect reality. We can schedule a zoom call if you want to see if our impressions of each h other are correct but I would prefer we just stick to facts and acknowledge that we both likely have biases that effect our thinking and one of the reasons we expose our thinking to criticism is to work through these biases. 
My problem is that you don't offer any research, studies, or data to back-up your claims. You rely heavily on anecdotes to support your arguments (your TV viewing habits as a child, your relationships with women, a youtube video you saw, etc.). And anecdotes are fine, but they should sprinkled on top of an argument supported by actual evidence.
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@WyIted
It looks like you took issue with me claiming the change of language was some sort of manipulation. You stated it happened naturally or as a response to marginalized communities taking ownership of the words that they are referred to as. 

I dont think you addressed what I said about the language seeming to change faster now than it did in the past which was one of my premises. 

Globalization and advancements in technology (internet and social media) are going to have impact on the speed in which language evolves. 

Language surrounding marginalized demographics evolve in step with their advancement within society. As society becomes more accepting, and as new generations within those groups are born with new perspective different from their elders then things like language get reassesed. 

This isn’t a mystery, there is no man behind the curtain. We can see how these trends evolved through writing and the words of the people who inspired those changes. The motivation is largely that these demographics wish to label themselves in the same way groups who are not marginalized can label themselves. The goal is make sure the playing field is level on every front.

My other premises are probably just not going to be extrapolated because I was into Satanism for so long as well s the occult and so I am kind of aware of what alterations in language can do and am kind of picking up on that. 

For example a lot of occultism would not say a phrase like "I am a fireman" when describing their occupation' they would say "I fight fires"
Would this be a way to keep someone from identifying more with their occupation than their loyalty to the occult?

There I hundreds of things we do with language in plain site and I am willing to write a post on some of how occultism and word choice works but it is a hidden Premise I held which is potentially not fair to explain one of my reasoning. Not that I believe the language manipulation is from occultism only that they seem to intuitively recognize some occult principles around language and be using them, and I don't feel like the language alterations are natural. Even when the term "social media" came out is seem contrived and the term seemed pushed more by mainstream media than a bottom up approach to language that is more normal

Darrell Berry coined the term “social media” in its current understanding in 1995 in an essay where he was explaining that the internet needed to go into a more social and interactive direction beyond text-based websites if it wanted to survive. The term didn’t become widely used until the success of platforms like myspace and facebook in the mid-2000s. The media latches on to phrases to better categorize trends, there needed to be a word to describe facebook, myspace, friendster, etc. as platforms and “social media” became the pick. And it really didn’t come out of left field: broadcast media, news media, interactive media, print media, etc. “Social media” flowed organically out of that, as it takes up similar space as the other “medias.”

I’m a big music nerd, so I see this more clearly with music critics trying to identify certain trends in music just to slap a label on it. It’s what writers, critics, analsysts, etc. do.

Your anxiety seems to stem from a lack of understanding, knowing the background. It’s hard to address you distrust without addressing the misconceptions that fuel it. Like with the word “queer” which in your experience has historically been used only to refer to gay men, but has been used against anyone who present themselves in a particular way in regard to their gender expression, gay men, bisexual men, etc. You seem to sometimes take your personal experience as the definitive experience without further investigation.
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@WyIted
No they can call me Irish or black or Japanese if they want. The question just annoys me. I know I am not Japanese and I have no problem with Japanese people so I don't mind being called it. I don't want to be asked though .
So, you don’t want to be asked, you just want people to assume and call you what they want? That's doesn't really make sense, you're doing a little jumping around here.

Everyone acknowledges it. Its not acknowledging the struggles. The criticism is in the insincere patronization and in the efforts to use these communities as cannon fodder such as with the BLM riots. 
I don’t really know what you’re saying here but, the “BLM riots” accounted for about 7% of BLM protests and demonstrations. Meaning 93% were peaceful. A lot of positive came out of the movement. BLM protests addressed genuine concerns of the black community, not "made up" concerns. 

Yeah so... racism. Favoring your own race over another one is racism. Sorry.
There is a difference between “favoring” your own race out of a feeling superiority, and “favoring” your own race because you feel that the majority of society unfavor them and you’re trying to balance out the difference. The playing field is not level.

Every study is imperfect but when asked if you are racist un the way it was done and answering that question yes, I'd pretty indicative you re racist.
I think you’re not understanding, it’s not about whether or not the study is “perfect” but whether or not the study’s findings can be used to draw conclusions about the real world. Zigerell’s writes within his own study that it has low external validity, which means:

“If external validity is low on a study, the results won't translate well to other conditions. That means that the research done doesn't tell us anything about the world outside of the study.”
https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-external-validity-in-research-definition-examples.html#:~:text=If%20external%20validity%20is%20low,world%20outside%20of%20the%20study.

I know they cited studies to see if wearing a hijab would decrease the likelihood of receiving help then the abstract explained that it did not reduce the likelihood of getting help but it just changed who was likely to help them. More women helped when the woman when she wore a head scarf. To me this would just be people scared to help because they maybe assume and correctly so that Islamic culture just accepts beating of women and the women don't want help. As somebody who read the Quran most of the time, I can assure you the assumption is well founded. 
A lot of studies show that women are more likely than men to intervene when another woman is being assualted. This is true regardless of the religion involved.

Also: The Quran says no such thing. You’re probably referring to hadiths, of which there are thousands, and not all Muslims follow the same (or any) hadith texts.

I can tell you that there is inherently more risk in rescuing black people than non blacks, and perhaps that more risk is why it's not done as frequently

Let's say your typical white woman and man is in a car. Let's say they are parents and their baby is not breathing and they are pulled overbecause they are rushing to a hospital and the cop immediately takes the baby from the back of the car to save its life. You know because most ops have extensive training in first aid. The white couple is going to typically shut the fuck up and get out of the way so their child is saved. 

The black couple a lot of times is not. Now it doesn't mean every white couple will be calm or every black couple will be erratic and try to stop the cop from rescuing the baby. It does mean that the white couples are more likely to be calm and thus you are at less personal risk by helping them.
You're basing your opinion, not on data or any kind of research, but on a youtube video. You're arguing that white people are less likely to discriminate, but should discriminate? Again, lots of jumping around happening here.

Yes I have.  Like I said I was the only white kid in my foster home and so I got control of the TV like once out of every 7 times and trust me I also picked black shows because it's just not fun to be the only one enjoying a show or a movie. You want somebody thereto watch it with you. At least for me watching television is a communal thing. 

I think representation is probably a chick thing and mostly white chick thing. I never once heard one of the black kids in foster care (all boys home) cry about not being represented. However I did hear fat white chick's crying when Amy Schumer decided not to play Barbie
Again, I would not compare a period in your childhood to a person's entire life. Kids watch what's on without too much though. Most people don't start to seek out more representation until they are older. The fact is, you left that house and you were to experience more media and more context beyond that. If you genuinely don't care, that's great. But you stance is consistently, "If I don't care then no one else should" which is just inherently lazy. 

And, you assumption on who cares about representation is wrong on two fronts:

 African-Americans were more likely to consider racial diversity important when watching a film, and less likely to believe there is a sufficient enough of racial diversity within acting roles: https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/190124_crosstabs_HOLLYWOOD_Adults_v1-1.pdf

And lefties hate Amy Schumer.

It' s legitimately stupid. Let me be more accurate. When I say I am American, I am happy to be American but it's just a factual thing. Why would anyone be a proud New Yorker or Texan? 

You literally have no control over where your mother gave birth. It's dumb to be proud of it. 

Are "Proud-Americans" stupid?

Going off of what you've said in previous posts: It's a factual statement that you are an Italian-American as well. People would be proud to be a New Yorker or Texan, because America does not share a monolithic culture/experience, so naturally, people will favor their experience in a particular city/town/state over another and would identify the ways in which living in a particular place informed their values and character (which your environment will have direct impact on).

Incorrect. education you are partially correct with though you probablybthink the solution is throwing more money at the problem and fail to realize that places like DC have the highest cost per student and spending moremoney doesn't stip them from being the worst. So the solution isnt throwing money at problems. However school should be year round to make up for the disproportionate academic decline.
I would argue that funding is important, but is meaningless if it's not going to the right places.

But it also goes beyond that, it's about how certain students are treated differently in the classroom:

Teachers are more likely to label black students as troublemakers than they are white students with the same number of infractions: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/eleases/teachers-more-likely-to-label-black-students-as-troublemakers.html 

Researchers reported that teachers asked to rate students’ academic abilities scored Black children far below white peers with identical scores: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/du-bois-review-social-science-research-on-race/article/unequal-returns-to-childrens-efforts/F3F39A2BCA0CC35CA27029E725928C12

Black students are more likely to attend schools with inexperienced or low-paid teachers. https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED581117.pdf

Healthcare- um.no, disproportionate health outcomes are due to a cycle that is too nuanced to get into here as well s genetics. Lets hust say socializing medicine and having 2 year wait times like Canada is not going to help the fact that black people eat unhealthy
Compared to white people, black people are less likely to receive preventive health services and often receive lower-quality care: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter-article/2018/sep/focus-reducing-racial-disparities-health-care-confronting

A substantial number of white laypeople and medical students and residents hold false beliefs about biological differences between blacks and whites and demonstrates that these beliefs predict racial bias in pain perception and treatment recommendation accuracy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/

Housing- sure, you till havent put together that forcing banks to give mlre risky loans caused the banks to need billions to be bailed out in the early 2000s or noticedthat New york deciding to utilize rent control to help ith housing actually has the highest rents in the country. So you need some pattern recognition skills here.

Black and white lenders were not treated the same even when equally qualified: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22004

Employment- correct but again not in the ways you suggest that make things worse. Clamp down on illegal immigration because black jobs are the firat to go. Stop the minimum wage hikes that are proven to increase unemployment of african americans but have zero impact on whute comunities. We also need to spread the "ban the box" initiative to every state because there is no reason that a felon is struggling tonfind employment as a dishwasher.
Black boys raised in America, even in the wealthiest families and living in some of the most well-to-do neighborhoods, still earn less in adulthood than white boys with similar backgrounds: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html?mtrref=undefined&gwh=4075444A1D97B6EB0BDB191538718DEE&gwt=pay&assetType=REGIWALL 

Black people are slightly more than half as likely to receive consideration by employers relative to equally qualified white applicants: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/race_at_work.pdf 

Black employment in the testing sector is suppressed in the absence of testing, a finding which is consistent with ex ante discrimination on the basis of drug use perceptions. https://www.nber.org/papers/w20095#fromrss


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@WyIted
I disagree that, that sort of ownership of language matters. Maybe that is because I speak 4 languages f and I just automatically accept whatever the people in those languages call me. 
I find it hard to believe that you don’t care what people call you but later in your post you say that you get “annoyed” when people ask “what are you” insinuating that you would identify as anything else but “American.” I would think you wouldn’t care either way.

I see these groups that engage in that sort of thing as either misguided or victims of leftists. Especially ially groups like Hispanic who are called Latinx because white people don't understand gendered languages and how they work. 
While, you’re right, most Latin people seems to hate the term, it was not white people who invented it…it was Latin people. 

I really empathize with marginalized communities, and I see most of this nonsense as intentional divisiveness meant to create hostilities between groups because leftists can sense that these catholic Hispanics and socially conservative religious African Americans have different values than they do and so they exploit them through divisive language. 
The left acknowledges how race and socio-economic struggles that impact marginalized communities disproportionately. There is no manipulation, it's just acknowledgment.

1. Bans on things that exploit the poor as if they are farm animals such as paid plasma donations, and surrogate pregnancy.

2. End things that harm th black family such as welfare policies that encourage single motherhood and ending the war on drugs so that way black fathers can be in their kid's lives more as well as dropping the stigma from being locked up that makes it so hard to get a job and support a family.

3. Taking measures so less African americans and poor babies are murdered in the womb.
The issues to focus on to help with poverty and everything that comes with it would be first and foremost: education, healthcare, housing, and employment. You're looking at the symptoms, but not the illness.

It's not needed. Quite frankly if you need to see yourself represented on screen you're probably a racist. I didn't cry when I was in fostercare when the whole house watched Martin and listened to Tupac all day.
Again, I’m not talking about the viewing habits of a single household. I’m speaking on the historic trends of mainstream Western media. 

I am not speaking on anybody behalf who isn't a child. It would have to be an extremely rare circumstance where somebody is trying to rape them or something and I yell "leave him alone"

But if I speak on their behalf to save them and they say "it's mam" . I am likely to just say never mind and walk away. 
It happens organically in conversation. You provide an extreme example (I doubt within the context you offer that mis-gendering someone would be an issue). So, let’s take it down a notch, take for example this scenario with 3 people sitting in an office:

Sara is distracted on the computer. Bob walks in and asks, “did anyone send that e-mail yet?” Larry gestures to Sara and responds, “she already did.” 

Or this example of a friend, Larry, watching his two other friends, Sara and Bob, play video games:

Sara: AH, stop shooting!

Bob: Hahaha.

Larry: Get her Bob!

People usually alternative between saying someone’s name or mentioning them by pronouns. They’re not doing either consciously, just what’s easiest within the context of the conversation.

In fact I probably bitch more about the white stuff. The reason being is nobody ever asks me if I am black but they will start talking about what they are "I am Italian, hey frank what are you?" I am Irish and John is polish. What are you Wylted?" I usually get annoyed and say "I am American dumbass". 

It makes me so happy when I meet an immigrant and I befriend them and they become comfortable enough to start saying "I am American" the way I do. I am not Iriah or European or African or Mexican. I am American. That's all I am. 
That’s lovely for you, I'll respect that by never referring to you as an Italian-American. But I’m still not sure why you care so much about what other people identify with. Should we do away with city/regional based sports teams, and just keep the national ones? When someone identifies themselves as a “New Yorker” or a “proud Texan”, are they being anti-patriotic? 

I like Miles Morales better and before you bring up that he is still male one of my favorite characters. I probably identify more with him, though he is better than me so not by much
I’m just going quote myself in my earlier post: “Of course, people can connect to a well-written character that may be a different gender, race, or sexual identity than them, but if you consistently find that certain key aspects of your personal experience are never depicted in media…then you would start to feel like something is missing in the content you're consuming.”

White people didn't invent story telling. There are centuries of stories, hell thousands of years of stories in africa, Mexico, Greece, China. Music that goes back as well. Whites just aren't that great. 
I’m not saying white people invented story telling or that they are the only ones who tell stories, I’m saying that straight white men have made up the majority of stories in mainstream Western culture, and so the cry for representation is just wanting something that straight white men already have. It’s silly to hear a straight white man say, “who cares about representation” because they’ve never known a world where they didn’t have it in abundance. 


here is a study that asks groups how much they hate other races essentially and whites were the least racist

First, you're misrepresenting what the study was looking for: it was not looking to find which races "hate" other races, but rather was there a favoring of one over the other. Second, Zigerell says in “the limitations of the study” section that the study has low external validity, which means its findings can’t be used to draw conclusions about the real world. This is because the studies referenced were largely conducted as over the phone surveys, and not in real world every-day experiences and environments. This study elaborates on the limitations of the methods used: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/abs/are-survey-experiments-externally-valid/7233B1EF4DD36030A0BC19380AEBCDFA 

More likely, the conversation this study opens the door to is aversive racism vs. overt racism. One of the study's that Zigerell references, speaks on this when it found white participants were less likely to help black help black people (and more likely to help other white people) under conditions where they were less inhibited, like in emergencies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15745861/

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@WyIted
This statement is the one I take most issue with and is my biggest issue. It's the left thinking people should control how they are perceived.  
.it's none of your business how you are perceived.  It's none of my business how I am perceived.  
You’re not offering the full story. The playing field is not level, and that’s problem with your argument. Historically speaking, how particular groups are perceived is based on how they were represented. These groups were not represented by themselves, but usually by outsiders: white men. But who represented white men? White men. 

The most important part: Perceptions influence treatment, and how people are treated is their business. If they want to change how they are treated, they have to change how they are perceived. 

Let's go down the list where this is a pervasive leftist belief. 

Fat acceptance community- cries all day that people perceive fatness as unhealthy and unattractive.  Attention FA community.it is none of your business if people think you are unattractive or if they think being fat is unhealthy. How you feel about yourself and others is what matters not how they feel about you. Get over it.  
You’re right, it’s no one’s business why someone doesn’t want to date them. But if that negative perceptions leads to bullying, harassment, healthcare being mismanaged, etc. then those fat acceptance people do have a leg to stand on.

Trans people- pronouns are not what anybody is referred to. I don't walk up to somebody and say he or call them she. I call them by their name. Pronouns typically only happening when referring to somebody and usually they aren't around. It might be your business if you are called mam or sir or Mrs or Mr. But pronouns such as he or she that are never said in front of you, because it is rude to talk about somebody in their presence in that manner, is not your concern. Fuck you, you don't have a right to bend my reality to your will. If you see yourself as a male or female or an it that is your business it is none of my business. 
There are absolutely instances where you would use pronouns with the person being referred to present, typically when you’re speaking on their behalf in some way. Anyway, you should realize that your way would be a two way street…little lady.

Nobody cares. I don't want to be represented in film. I don't want to watch a movie where a short fat guy is the main hero. I don't want somebody to represent me, I ant some sort of figure that represents the values I care about. Preferably somebody better than me so I can seek to emulate them. Not somebody who reflects back to me who I am. I already can look in the mirror and see that. I live my life I already know what it's like to be me, show me Batman Fuckers.
That’s what marginalized people want. They want an idealized or elevated version of themselves that they can be inspired by, not just a literal interpretation of who they are as individuals.

Batman is still a straight white guy, and straight white guys want to see straight white guys they can look up to. And everyone deserves that….whether you’re a straight white guy or a black gay guy.

Representation is another thing where somebody is trying to force a perception. Fuck off. It's none of your business how I perceive you. Whats your business is how you perceive yourself and whether you act with integrity or not. 
And this is a big misconception: While studies do show that representation is a big factor in helping marginalized people to be perceived (and thus treated) more positively, representation is also about being able to connect and enjoy a film on a personal level (not a political or social one).

Your identity impacts your experience. A person’s ability to connect to a story, regardless of the medium, is informed partially by their ability to connect to the experience that is being depicted. Of course, people can connect to a well-written character that may be a different gender, race, or sexual identity than them, but if you consistently find that certain key aspects of your personal experience are never depicted in media…then you would start to feel like something is missing in the content you're consuming.

If you’re a straight white man, there are centuries worth of stories and characters depicting that experience in a million different ways. As a result, a straight white man might not think of representation as a big deal, because they’ve never been without it. If every movie that came out was only about women and gay men, white straight men would take issue with it…and they would be right to. Everyone deserves representation after all..
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@WyIted
 First of all. White people having institutional power is not dangerous. Every study shows that whites have less in group bias than non whites and when we break it down by politics than we see that whites who are conservative have less in group bias than any other race and that white liberals have an outgroup bias which does not exist in non whites. 

To me that eems like even with large amounts of power that whites having it will be more fair than groups who have larger in group biases. 

To be clear, i’m not calling a white majority inherently dangerous, I’m saying If white supremacy rises within the context of a white majority, that is more likely (and therefore more dangerous) than black supremacy rising within a white majority (it’s won’t).

And could you supply those studies you are speaking of?

No it's fcking annoying either way. It's ficking annoying to hear stuff called "mid" or to hear somebody say "no cap" or whatever the hell else is going on with language. 
Just tell ‘em to get off your lawn and be done with it.

The bigger issue is intentionally changing terms for a political purpose. If we change terms to much than you can get misunderstandings of important things. For example the bill of rights. If our understanding of the word freedom differs from those who wrote the bill of rights than we can get into issues where courts think they can restrict speech more than the founders intended. Or we can read other old documents and really tarnish the legacy of those who came before us by misunderstanding their words to mean something other than intended. I don't want my words read 200 years from now and have my idiot great grand kids think I meant something other than what I meant when I wrote them.
That’s what you don’t understand: The intention is not political, it’s about humanity. You read it as political because that allows you to dismiss it as insincere or manipulative, which is why you don’t address any of the reasonings I supplied you with as to why these words changed. You want to maintain your anger toward these groups so you focus your arguments on more generalized concepts that you project your perceptions and assumptions onto.

Your fear of change is not rational. We have linguists and historians who study writings based on the context of the time they were written in. And still debates will occur about what meant what, and we will learn new things and that will change our perceptions of what a particular sentence meant centuries ago. It’s all evolving, and that scares you..but that’s life, and it’s nothing new.

It's not obvious and that is a stupid statement. I ill tart by saying I have been to Irish fest and German heritage fests and it is all dumb. These people are not Irish or German they are American and it's actually disrespectful to claim as somebody born in America "I am Irish".
Then why don’t people cry as much about festivals celebrating Irish or Italian heritage as much as they do those that celebrate black culture? It’s always an afterthought. But St.Patricks Day takes up much more space than any black celebrations, all the green and the alcohol....and yet, no outrage.

I will say though that if black culture is Olay to celebrate than white culture is. If you don't require them to sub divide it into Ghana or south African or Egyptian culture than requiring whites to divide it up that way is dumb.
I mean, those exist too. But most African-Americans aren’t going to know much about where they come from outside of the context of slavery. 
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@WyIted
Dude there is this game the left is playing with the English language where they think by controlling definitions they can control mindset. 
Language evolves, it is expected to evolve. But people such as yourself only care when it evolves in regards to marginalized demographics because that evolution represents a social integration where marginalized people have autonomy over how they are perceived. The conversation largely comes down to the question of: Should specific communities be allowed to decide the language that refers to them, or should the language that was created during time when the people creating it largely did not have a favorable view of those communities they were labeling be protected?

Queer just meant gay male before. People used to refer to gays as "being funny" queer literally means funny (southern for different) . These people were not referring to people who were gender fluid or very fluid in their sexual orientation when they said it.  The left plays this game with language as a stupid trick to attempt to make senior citizens look bigoted. It's a fact. Here I som other examples
Let me set a scene for you:

It’s the 1930s, a man walks into a store. He moves in a way that reads as feminine, he speaks in an effeminate manner. He makes his purchase he leaves. The the two clerks look at each-other and one of them says, “He seemed a little queer, dontcha think?”

They were not commenting on his sexual orientation, though they could make an assumption, but they were commenting on the way this man carried himself: his gender expression. The mistake of society was tying gender expression to sexual orientation so heavily, because it is not always the case that two will align as you would expect them.  

Another example, in the National Archives, there is a letter from a Cyril Coeur de Leon which is established as example of an early use of the word “queer” as a way to self-identify. Cyril described his sexual orientation as “queer” while acknowledging his attracted to both genders. This letter was written in the 1930s. 

So, this understanding of “queer” is not new. 

I mean, "bisexuality" originally meant "intersex." "Heterosexual" originally meant to refer to a "morbid passion for the opposite sex," before it became just the descriptor for general attraction to the opposite sex.

Negro- literally the Spanish word for black and clearly just means the same thing as African American. However if I said it on my way to work it would get me attacked on the bus
Why do you wish to say it? I’m not sure how old you are, but I will assume you were born after a time it was used regularly to regard black people. 

“Black” replaced “Negro” as the favored description of racial identity, because a new generation arose in the 60s that wanted to establish a different set of ideals than the black generations prior. “Black” was the first identifier that the black population got to claim for themselves, everything prior was dictated by white people.

Oriental- just a way to say Asian many older Asians still refer to themselves as being Orientals.  The left wants to make 75 year old people look racist so thy randomly decide to change the term for whatever reason. 
Most Asian activists and scholars would not attack anyone over a certain age for using the term “oriental.” 

Much like the black community, the Asian community wanted to claim a new term for themselves that was not imposed onto them by a community that had…mixed feelings toward them to begin with. “Oriental” is a very Eurocentric term, it refers to the East. It comes from the direction the sun would rise from in relation to the Roman Empire. It has nothing to with Asia, but an outsiders perception of Asia. And such, a new generation chose a new identifier that was more accurate in its description.

Racism- hatred of or having a feeling of superiority over other races on the basis of racial qualities.

Now they know that maybe one in a million people are actually racist by that definition. So they have changed the definition to be the following

Racism- white people . Those with a higher social status in society and are white automatically have that status based on their skin color, oh and by the way since only oppressors can be racist any non white person who thinks they are superior to others based on their skin color are not racist. 
This is your interpretation of the definition, but you’re confusing multiple concepts. The main being “intersectionality,” which is to suggest that most people experience privilege in some aspect of their lives, and don’t experience it on other aspects of their lives. A black people will not experience the privilege that being white affords. But a poor white person won’t experience the privilege of wealth that a rich black person would have. It works both ways, and it allows us to build a nuanced view of how different obstacles can present themselves within society.

The general population, as well as all major institutions in America, are comprised primarily of white people. As a result, “white supremacy” is a more dangerous concept than “black supremacy.” Black people are still a minority, and they will not experience the same access to power that the white population maintains simply because…there are more white people. So, you’re right that the two are not treated the same, because the threat is not the same. 
 
That said, celebrations of black culture exist not out “supremacy”, but simply, because historically speaking, mainstream culture celebrates the demographics that make up the majority (not black culture). That has begun to change, but that change is fed by the actions, education, and celebrations from within the black community. And while a celebration of white culture would be racist, a celebration of Irish-American or Italian-American culture would not be racist….for reasons, I hope, would be obvious.


It's really a stupid game you guys play and it is recent. Greek words in 500bc meant the exact same thing in 500AD because nobody played those games with language. The left see it as a tool to make senior citizens look racist so they change definitions every 5 years. 

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@WyIted


A lot of incels are getting itinto their heads that it's easier to find love as a woman. So they become trans in order to get laid and finally be in a long lasting and loving relationship. 

I don't know what to suggest in this regard. Thy are probably correct, it is the o ly way they can find love. 

Studies have found a large overlap with autism, so my theory is that autistic people struggle to get laid because they come across as autistic when hitting on women, but if they turn into women the awkwardness is chalked up to being quirky or some other spin. 

You're right, the mentality that "everything is easier for women" is a what controls incels, but it does not connect to transness.

Most trans women, regardless of orientation, would tell you that one of the things they sacrifice when they transition is their dating pool. Much of society is not yet ready to date a trans person, unless they themselves are trans. Any person who thinks they are willing to go through the transition process will probably try to find trans community (usually online) only to discover this reality being expressed often, so if the main motivation would be to simply to get more dates...it would die there.


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Your conclusion is only straight men are straight.

Now, don't be weird, but i'm just gonna work with your logic to fix it:

Straight men, you are not straight.

You are bisexual, but you are more romantically (but also sexually) attracted to men while primarily only sexually attracted to women (you don't want to talk to them too much).

You love masculinity, you think about it a lot, and you prefer the men around you to exhibit it because it makes you feel safe and you get a little thrill when their strong hands accidentally caress yours while passing you the Xbox controller. The attraction leaves you with a feeling of vulnerability that is so unbearable, you rebel against your natural urge, and try to control others who aren't wimps about it. The liberation so many straight men will feel when they realize that they don't need to be incels, they don't need to lie about their body counts on message boards, they just need to date...each other.



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A small % of black men ARE the most VIOLENT in American society
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@Avery
You don't understand that you're still Ad Homming.

The truth of an argument exists independent of who says it. If the "bias" or "political agenda" affects the truth of the argument, then it becomes a problem, but "bias" or "political agenda" are not issues in themselves. Hitler can say 'water is wet', and that's true regardless of how many Jews he killed.

I've addressed the arguments in your sources. I believe that bias and political agenda have affected the arguments in your sources. I believe you would be better off studying the statistics and data on your own, and then forming your own arguments. 

No, no.

We're not arguing whether poverty can predict violent crime at all. We're arguing whether race is a better predictor of violent crime than poverty, seeing your comment here: "poverty is more of the greater indicator toward violent crime than race". A small % of black men ARE the most VIOLENT in American society (debateart.com) 

So, the study found that race was a much better predictor than poverty across 3 decades, beating various forms of poverty in most single regression models. Specifically, across these 9 models, race better predicted homicide than unemployment, poverty, and median income in 7/9 of the models, and also income inequality in 8/9 models mccall_1990_amer_j_soc_922.pdf (ncsu.edu) .

You need to contend with that argument, in order to defend your original argument.
You need to address my arguments in the post. I've explained that race will impact how a community experiences poverty (as your source also indicates). I would concede that race could be a greater indicator in so far that many black people experience a systemic racism that keeps them in poverty and provides less resources to get them out than their white impoverish counterparts (as your study also points out).

I'm going to quote directly from the study:

"Wilson (1987, pp. 46-62) argues that the social transformation of the inner city in recent years (through segregation, selective out-migration by the middle class, and racial discrimination) has resulted in a disproportionate and criminogenic concentration of the disadvantaged. For example, opposition from organized community groups to public housing projects and the decisions of governments to neglect rehabilitation of existing single-family housing have led to the massive segregation of housing projects. The consequences for racial differences in living conditions are striking; according to Wilson's (1987)calculations, in 1980 less than 10% of urban poor whites lived in poverty areas, but 40% of poor blacks did. In addition to sheer economic deprivation, the corre- sponding decreasing vertical integration of middle- and lower-class black families may thus contribute-through a process Wilson (1987, p. 61) calls social isolation-to the disintegration of community social control institutions and the supervision capacity of adults."

This quote is not arguing that race alone indicates high crime. It's not arguing that black people commit more crime because they're black. It's arguing that black people face unique societal obstacles that leave them with less resources than their poor white counterparts.

Again, we're arguing about whether race is a better predictor of violent crime than poverty. We're not interested in tangential 'how poverty is experienced' arguments. You need to connect what you're saying to what we're arguing about.
The problem is that your side wants to argue that being black in and of itself is the problem. You want to end the conversation there, but it would be disingenuous to do so (for the many reasons I've already pointed out). If we see that a particular demographic is more prone to particular outputs, we have to see what is unique about that demographics experience that may influence those outputs. Wanting to leave it just at skin color is lazy at best.
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White Privilege - Fact or Fiction
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@TWS1405
I mean, whether or not you believe in "white privilege" is going to be contingent upon whether or not you believe that black people face systemic racism in society. It's apparent you don't. But it does appear that many of your sources misunderstand the concept of "white privilege." 

There is a rational way to approach this: The first thing to remember is that there are different kinds of privilege that exists within society. A poor white person growing up in a trailer park will have white privilege because race does not play a role in the obstacles they face (like it would for a poor black person). Alternatively, a black person can grow up wealthy and get a great education, they will still encounter racism so they will not have "black privilege," but they will have economic/class privilege (something that poor white person doesn't have). It's nuanced. 

Here is some data and studies for you to read over (i'm just going to copy it from an old debate):


Education:




Employment:



  • Black employment in the testing sector is suppressed in the absence of testing, a finding which is consistent with ex ante discrimination on the basis of drug use perceptions. https://www.nber.org/papers/w20095#fromrss

Housing:


    • Black home buyers are 105 and 78 percent more likely to have high cost mortgages for home purchases even after controlling for credit score and other key risk factors: https://ww.nber.org/papers/w22004

Heathcare:


  • A substantial number of white laypeople and medical students and residents hold false beliefs about biological differences between blacks and whites and demonstrates that these beliefs predict racial bias in pain perception and treatment recommendation accuracy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/


Legal System/Law Enforcement:

  • White defendants are twenty-five percent more likely than black defendants to have their principal initial charge dropped or reduced to a lesser crime. White defendants with no prior convictions receive charge reductions more often than black defendants with no prior convictions: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036726




Here's an interesting one: Using a police training video game, the effect of ethnicity on shoot/don't shoot decisions was examined. African American or White targets, holding guns or other objects, appeared in complex backgrounds. Participants were told to "shoot" armed targets and to "not shoot" unarmed targets. In Study 1, White participants made the correct decision to shoot an armed target more quickly if the target was African American than if he was White, but decided to "not shoot" an unarmed target more quickly if he was White. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12500813/
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@Avery
Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy week.

Do you know what else isn't convincing?

Ad Hom.

Try addressing the data and arguments.
Ah. Ok. Typically, if i’m presenting an argument with data, I try to find data from sources that show no bias toward any particular political/social agenda. Objectivity and all that fun stuff. I’ll throw that out the window for this discussion. Reading through your sources, they bring up interesting arguments, but nothing compelling.

First, I’ll quickly explain my stance (if you want me to expand on anything, I will_: I believe its poverty and racial discrimination that black people face that creates more instances of crime. For example, data shows that black and white people experience poverty differently.

I’m actually going to bring up one of your sources to help me begin: Structural Covariates of Homicide Rates: Are There Any Invariances Across Time and Social Space? (thank you for providing a readable version btw). Though this study argues that poverty alone may not explain violent crime rates, it does suggest that it can be explained in conjunction with other factors. The study actually points to the social isolation, segregation, racial discrimination, and single-parent homes in conjunction with poverty as being likely major factors for why the crime rate is higher within the black community. 

These two sources go into more detail about the different ways black and white communities experience poverty: http://www.npc.umich.edu/publications/policy_briefs/brief16/PolicyBrief16.pdf

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Long-Shadows_Final.pdf

Now, i'll dive into your other sources. I’ll highlight what stood out to me as relevant (if i miss anything you think is important to address, point it out, and i’ll get to it):

First up: https://www.unz.com/article/race-and-crime-in-america/

This article hammers on two main points: The first, Black people are more likely to commit violent crime than other demographics. The second, the author compares the poverty/crime rates of El Paso and Atlanta as well as Santa Ana and Oakland. Similar poverty rates, very different crime rates. The author points out that the cities with a higher black population is more likely to have the higher crime rate.

The first point, I have no contention with. The second is where it gets bit more complicated. The author doesn’t explore why these differences exist, just acknowledges that they do. So, let’s try to actually explore these differences in a bit more detail:

“Hispanic” as a singular demographic is tricky because it encompasses a much more diverse group of people than “black” does. Typically, you’ll see it broken down between “white hispanics” and “non-white hispanics.” It’s important to acknowledge the different experiences between these two subgroups, because skin color impacts them differently. 

For example: Darker skinned hispanics reported experiencing racism from light-skinned/white hispanics at a similar rate as non-hispanic white people. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/05/02/latinos-experience-discrimination-from-other-latinos-about-as-much-as-from-non-latinos/

A majority of latinos say that skin color impacts their opportunities and their ability to get ahead:  https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2021/11/04/majority-of-latinos-say-skin-color-impacts-opportunity-in-america-and-shapes-daily-life/

With this information, let’s look at the author’s comparison between El Paso and Atlanta. El Paso’s population is majority white-hispanic. Despite the similar poverty rates, we’ve already seen how skin color impacts opportunity, so this comparison is not as compelling as it may look superficially. 

The other comparison the author makes is between Santa Ana and Oakland. Both having similar poverty rates, Santa Ana having a lower crime rate. The main demographic of Santa Ana is non-white hispanic. The author points out the low crime rate among hispanic immigrants. Santa An has an immigrant population of 45% (https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/profile-of-foreign-born-population-santa-ana.pdf) nearly double that of Oakland. 

This is an important point, because crime rates tend to be lower among immigrants from many different backgrounds (regardless of income) including African and Haitian immigrants: https://www.ncjrs.gov/criminal_justice2000/vol_1/02j.pdf https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-013-0799-3

So, it would make sense for a city with one of the highest populations of immigrants to not have a very high crime rate, and this would be true regardless of the skin color of the immigrant.

Moving on, the article then attempts to make its one of its weaker arguments. It suggests that with the election of Obama and mainstream media’s gradual change in representation of black people, that we should expect the crime rates to go down. But, unfortunately, data would suggest that we haven’t made as much progress as you might think:

Education:


Employment:


Legal System/Law Enforcement:


These are just some examples, there is more.

Your Color of Crime study seems to be reporting more of the same about the higher rates of crime among black people, again, not exploring why. It assumes that the motivation behind Black Lives Matter and other anti-racist groups is based on the few of the highly publicized police killings that the protests focused on. The data I gave above show that isn't the case.

Anyway, I’ll end it there because i’ve written too much, but I'll elaborate on whatever ya want.



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@PREZ-HILTON

Yikes. Let's break this down:

I got it by looking at his citations and not being a retard about how to interpret what he wrote. You are still claiming he is saying that that percentage of black males were criminals when anybody else who has a 3 digit IQ would know he Is saying half of all crime comes from that demographic. Those are 2 wildly different things.
I'm referring specifically to this blog: https://samflynn0514.wixsite.com/americaindenial/post/black-men-not-whites-are-the-tried-and-true-violent-criminals-in-the-usa (if you're looking at another post or link please share it because we're probably not looking at the same thing)

He specifically says this: "A little less than half of the 6% black male population (3%) commit over 50% of the entire nation's #murders and non-negligent manslaughters."

What he is saying is that  6% of the US population is black men (which is correct: The current population of the US is 329.5 million. 6% of 329.5 million is 19.91 million which is how many black men there are in America), he says that a little less than half of that population commits over 50% of the nation's murders and non-negligent manslaughters which would be about 3%. So, if there are 19.91 million black men in America, 3% of that would be 600,000. But there are not 600,000 black men being arrested for murder/non-negligent manslaughter, based on data he shared, there's less than 5,000. So, it's a lot less than 3% of black men who are committing those crimes, it's actually more like 0.03% of black men. It's was either a little math mistake or he's purposely presenting data in a misleading way.

There are three tables: total arrests, arrests under 18, and arrests over 18. Nothing that specifies 18-25.

So, what were you looking at where it says 18-25?

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The cancelling of Andrew Tate is uncalled for. He is not a misogynist.
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@RationalMadman
It isnt just about me.

You want to make this about me? I am not gonna discuss my love or sex life nor specifics of where I am.
I don’t want you to share information you’re not comfortable with sharing. I think my point is that, usually when I have conversations with people about their actually lived experiences, they don’t align so nicely with these stereotypes and expectations on men vs. women. There’s far too much nuance in reality. And usually, once people have their own experiences with dating and all that, they develop more nuanced understanding of who they are in a relationship and what specifically they are looking for. There’s no universal desire.

I have a lot of guy friends, and a lot of women friends, and what they are looking for in a partner varies all over the place. There’s no “women want this, and men want that” in the way that people like Andrew Tate present it. What I do see, is that there is safety in thinking relationships and people are black and white like that. And when something like dating give you anxiety, you are going to seek that safety out.


I do not idolise Tate, that would defy everything he teaches. Tate-stans are not living by Tate's philosophy. He is a strong man who knows what he wants and, until this cancelling, got what he wanted. I do think he has solid outlook on things.
See, when you originally said you were not a Tate-stan I thought that meant that you only casually check out his stuff and weren’t like super into him. But you’re saying the reason you don’t idolize him is because he wouldn’t want that. That doesn’t make you a stan, that makes you an uber-stan. And it would appear you are putting him on some sort of pedestal to listen to his teachings that closely.


You preach all this stuff and in your profile you list as female so let me ask you honestly, why are you pushing this on me and my personal life?
Again, I’m questioning the desire from Andrew Tate and his followers to generalize people and their experiences by making them so black and white. He preaches that there is a right and wrong way to exist, and I don’t agree with that. If you’re saying that you as an individual decided that you like going to the gym, wanted to become independent, get a nice job, and work on you emotional intelligence, I would give you a hi-five. If you’re saying that you want to do those thing because Andrew Tate preaches it and it’s the only right way to exist as a man, then I don’t think that’s a healthy mindset, and it won’t sustain you in the long-run.

Are you in denial that you have power over your looks, especially in 2022? All sorts of stylists, fashion designers, makeup experts, fitness experts and in worst case scenario, plastic surgeons exist. You can find me disgusting for what I just said but I find it more disgusting to deny genetically ugly women the right to compete by hard work and determination. Why did i say 'ugly' because not that I am insensitive but that I would not ever disrespect the agony of women who are unfairly born visually offputting by using a cleaner term that would not signify the severe suffering they experience. The one advantage that ugly women have is that they know for sure that their friends and lovers either enjoy their personality or at least genuinely enjoy(ed) their company. That is something I am sure many hotties envy, lowkey.
Full disclosure, I’m very into fitness, and bettering myself as an individual. I think that investing in yourself is the best thing you can do. So I think that you and I fundamentally agree there.

I’m not denying that people can’t change themselves, and if they want to do it then they should. I’m arguing against the idea that women have to put less work into getting a partner. When it comes to things like fitness, it takes longer for women to loose weight and build muscle than it does for men. I know women who have been going to the gym for years, and they are still technically considered “over-weight.” Different bodies respond differently to fitness and diets and all that. When you factor is female hormones it gets a bit more complicated with weight fluctuations.

But my point in that was to say, that it’s not easy for either gender to reach “high value” status by how Andrew Tate defines it and that men do have more variables that they can consider and control in becoming more attractive by societal standards (which while still difficult, would make it a bit easier).


Being low value is not a reason to hate yourself, it is a reason to push yourself and get the lovelife and genetically blessed offspring (by the partner you reproduce with) that you will be proud of.

Well, that’s my other point that I was trying to make in my other post, I don’t really believe in the “low-value” and “high-value” thing. At-least, not how it’s presented by Tate. So, of course, no one should hate themselves and they should mould themselves into who they want to be. But who they want to be might not be someone that Tate would consider to be of “low-value” anyway. 

For example, when I was in high school I dressed in the more conventionally attractive way, I was very preppy. I did it because everyone else did it. So, preppy/popular people tended to be more open to me. Though I envied the way the more “indie” kids dressed, but there weren’t many of them at my school and I was scared of being different. Then one day, I finally got to talk to one of them, and I told them what music I was into and they said, “wow, would have never guessed, you don’t seem like the type.” And that moment I decided it was more important for me to dress how I want, and connect with people I have things in common with than just dress to impress the popular kids. I learned how to play guitar, I read more books, I went out to more shows, I got to meet more interesting people, etc. I got to move to cool city, and work with interesting people because I prioritized my own sense of self and not being perceived as "high value."

One of my good friends, a dude, was a skinny pimple-faced soft-spoken metalhead growing up. All he did was play guitar. He met a girl, they connected over the same hobbies/interests, and they're happily married now. What I'm saying is, you shouldn't have to rely solely on someone else's template for your life to find success.


I have no reason to sugarcoat anything here. I am not a misogynist and I think us humans are too proud to enjoy our animalistic aspects and meaning of life so much so we reach depression and agony trying to find a meaning beyond the lust, emotions, fulfillment from defeating rivals and raw animalistic thrill of life.

I was a depressed nobody that was bitter and blamed everyone else. You want me to get personal, I will leave it at that. I was more misogynistic before, when I blamed women for rejecting me, blamed them for leading me on and breaking my heart. Blame, blame blame, then I woke up and took the red pill and asked myself... dude, why would high value women desire the loser you were or are? Would you, as a woman, actively want to date you, fuck your skinny ass and enjoy your petty arrogance?

And you know what I realised? The answer wasnt just no, rather it was a hmm I would if he just toned this down or accentuated this etc.

So I stayed bitter and channeled it to myself. Every day I try to live my life as I want and blame nobody for what comes of it. If I choose to spend my time debating online, less women will dig that answer to hobbies esp if I refuse to tell them the RM account that is my passionate hobby so ofc they find me blander. No shit.

I learned how to get other hobbies, how to be interesting way beyond any one thing (I learned that before this website though, it was a metaphor). Do you think women will get wet around a man who does not feel like he has a handle on his life and emotions? No woman, no matter what, enjoys a crybaby. They empathise and slowly they sympathise and then suddenly you're their burden and not their alpha or sigma strong man.

I have seen it in couples I know/knew. It is up to me to be a strong man and a disciplined man because if I fail to be it, I sure as hell will fail to be a good and strong father to my children and that is an unacceptable failure, one they will pay the price for.

You think Tate is this and Tate is that ? I do not care. Cancelling him just proves what a sensitive bitchfest this modern generation is becoming, yes the 'men' too.

Being a man is about more than being a boy aged X years, a man needs to define himself, strengthen himself and aspire to be great or he can choose to wither. I withered repeatedly, gaming is fun, porn is fun and I like some Netflix and Spotify. The question isnt zero pleasure, it is can I prioritise and build myself or not.

Change the porn addiction to a passion for seeking women.

Change the gaming addiction to a passion for poker and other games that garner money, perhaps stocks and shares.

Change the spotify and netflix to a small reward. It isnt easy. None of it is.

Being disciplined means having the courage to love yourself enough to pity and resent the wretched loser you currently were and/or are.

That is the core message Tate taught and for that reason he got that massive following. His cancellation is just proof what a joke our current generation is.
I don’t disagree with any of this really, and think that it’s really great you went out and worked on yourself like that. I don't think being anti-Andrew Tate means that you are anti-the things you mention here. But the things you arguing for are not the reasons why Andrew Tate got cancelled, and the good does not cancel out the bad in the things that he has said.

And i'm sure he'll be fine, he has a lot of money.
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A small % of black men ARE the most VIOLENT in American society
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@PREZ-HILTON
You are misinterpreting what this means. By 3% he means 50% of the 6% of the population black males represent. I believe he is specifically talking about a demographic of 18 to 25 year old males. He isn't saying that all 18-25 year olds commit the crimes only that those crimes predominantly come from that demographic. 

No, I think I understood. He's saying that black males commit over half of overall violent crime, but he got his numbers wrong and said that it would mean 3% of black males are committing those crimes. And while you're right, in that it would mean he would be implying just about half of black men are criminals, he would be wrong in the implication for the reasons I mention in my original post. He also didn't specify an age range in his blog so I'm not sure where you got that from.
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A small % of black men ARE the most VIOLENT in American society
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@Avery
This is not true at all.

Land, McCall and Cohen (1990) found race to be the strongest predictor of crime across several decades (beating poverty) Structural Covariates of Homicide Rates: Are There Any Invariances Across Time and Social Space? | American Journal of Sociology: Vol 95, No 4 (uchicago.edu) 

Unz (2013) found that '%black' was the best predictor of crime throughout many American cities (again, beating poverty) Race and Crime in America, by Ron Unz - The Unz Review 

"The Color of Crime" analysis also found violent crimes correlated with 'black' at 0.81, and only 0.36 with poverty Color-Of-Crime-2016.pdf (amren.com) 

The list goes on...

These sources aren't terribly convincing. The last one is from literal white supremacist organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation), and the Unz Review is considered a white nationalist publication. The American Journal of Sociology would be an interesting read but it is over 30 years old and is behind a paywall so alas...if you could quote from it that would be cool.
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The cancelling of Andrew Tate is uncalled for. He is not a misogynist.
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@RationalMadman



Women have these as factors:
  • How hot they are
  • How healthy they are
  • How emotionally intelligent they are
  • How loyal they are reputed to be
  • Being popular
Most women don't fit the mainstream societal expectations of "hotness" or "healthy" body shape. So, there's a lot of women who are out of the "high value " arena just based on genetics alone. I find that some young guys who are inexperienced with dating tend to have the perception that women have it easier because these guys are only considering conventionally attractive women. They're not  considering the most women only the women they find attractive. 

But, also, being "popular"? Popularity becomes a lot harder to quantify as you get older and are in the real world. There's a lot more social groups in the real world than high school, and all having contradicting measures of social success. So, a cool hipster type in the city won't be perceived the same way in the suburbs. A gym-rat with a car obsession will be popular among like-minded people, and will do well in certain social circles, but would probably not fit in with a more urban intellectual/cultured group. I'm going to assume "likability" would be a more accurate factor to consider (and that can be pretty subjective depending on what social circles you hang around with).

Men have all kinds of factors, this is both an advantage and a disadvantage because if they lack in the looks department and even in EQ on top of that, they can compensate well. Loyalty is actually much less a factor for men, it's nearly nonexistent as a competing factor, it just matters they're honest if they are poly much more so than that they're known to be sexually loyal.
I don't see the disadvantage with having more factors to have the ability to work on. Especially if many of those factors don't come down primarily to genetics, but are things that any person can develop over time.

And I would argue that loyalty is a similar factor for both men and women in that neither party tolerates infidelity, but if they are interested in polyamory for themselves then they have to be interested in it for their partner as well. For straight couples who were in "poly" or "open" relationships, it was women who were more likely to initiate those types of relationships as opposed to the men in those relationships (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/magazine/is-an-open-marriage-a-happier-marriage.html), and women were more likely than their male partners to have sexual relationships outside of their primary one. 

I imagine Andrew Tate is the type of guy who believes that only men should be able to sleep around while a relationship, I'd be a little impressed if i'm wrong though.


  • How 'achieved' they feel while interacting with them (cocky vibes without overt arrogance)
  • How difficult it feels to impress them (they should be difficult to impress, not impossible)
  • How interesting and intelligent they are when conducting conversation (men have to lead conversations, they need both good questions and good answers to hold a woman's intrigue)
  • How reliable they seem, financally, emotionally and physically. This is why a man needs a decent job and body, it's about reliability, if he seems weak and flimsy in any way it turns the women off quite rapidly, depending which form of reliability the woman wants more. He should also be competent at staying calm and reliable emotionally but also not seem 'dead' emotionally, it's a complex mix.
  • Also being attractive
  • Also being emotionally intelligent
  • Also being healthy
  • Loyalty less important, being totally honest about urges and desires more important. Women would ultimately rather an honest playboy over a shady guy who's overall known for 'loyalty', though their preference there differs per woman in severity.
  • Having an aura that 'turns heads' even if it comes with being hated. Women need to be likable to be attractive, men need to be noticable and can cope with being disliked and maintianing value quite easily with a jaded antihero vibe. 
The funny thing is, any person who says they "never apologize" because they are "never wrong" is not emotionally intelligent. Any person who says or even jokes about smashing a woman's face in with a machete if she accuses him of sexual assault, is not in control of their emotions.

But Andrew Tate aside. A lot of those list pertains to both genders. For example, "should be difficult to impress, but not impossible" is the type of stuff women's magazines would tell women they needed to be in-order to get boyfriends. But, again, most people don't play games like that in-order to find dates. It's really easy to tell the difference between an authentic interactions, and someone who is trying to go over a mental checklist of how to maintain what they think is a desirable romantic dynamic.

I would also argue that what constitutes as physically "attractive" is broader for a man than for a woman. You have the recent obsession with "dad bods" for example, or the "silver fox" aesthetic as men age to consider. You have the androgyny of Harry Styles, Maneskin, Tokyo Hotel, etc. The physical "ideals" for women are much more narrow than that. 

The idea that a man has to lead a conversation is a bit off too, while I do appreciate the acknowledgement that men should ask good questions, the reality is a good conversation is about the ability to connect in a sincere and mutual way. I don't know any woman that wants a man to "lead" a conversation, but wants a man who knows how to listen and contribute in a meaningful way to a conversation. Again, the mind game attempts are silly and unnecessary if you're pursuing a healthy and honest relationship.

But really, how have you implemented this in your dating life? What kind of women are you after? Do you find that these factors are how you define yourself and what you want in a partner, or do you have more specific characteristics based on your personality that you place greater importance on?
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The cancelling of Andrew Tate is uncalled for. He is not a misogynist.
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@RationalMadman
Tate has never been against the idea of high value women following his advice. The difference is that if you are a woman, you can focus primarily on being attractive, healthy, emotionally intelligent and loyal and you already spiral in value. In constrast, men who have focused on that have only become medium value at best, you can deny it or face reality, a man has to focus on more variables to be high value. 
I think this is a bit simplistic. Most people don't fit solidly into any particular stereotype. If you look at the real world (not the TV or the internet), most people are just average across the board or below average in some area of their life. They find people who they click with, and they get married. I know a lot of slobs with average jobs who are married to slightly more attractive women with average jobs. I know conventionally attractive, nice guys, with not so impressive jobs who date/marry women who are also attractive and have slightly better jobs (they usually have interests in common as well), attractive women with ok jobs who marry less attractive men with nicer jobs. It's not black and white. What I don't see as often are less attractive women with more attractive men.

Dating is hard for young guys because, in a heterosexual context, they are often expected to make the first move. That leaves them in a vulnerable position which causes them to overthink strategies they deem "biology-proof" to make them feel a bit safer about the whole thing when they really should be developing themselves as individuals.

So cancel it rather than debate it because your side are a bunch of cowards. Sure.
I mean, I do agree, I wish there were more debate on larger levels. But your man said that he keeps a machete by his bed for any woman who accuses him of rape so...that might be past the point of debate.
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Good music
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The cancelling of Andrew Tate is uncalled for. He is not a misogynist.
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@RationalMadman
I am not sure what the fuck has happened to people today to say it is 'misogyny' to know what being a masculine man and feminine woman is and saying 'I like to live my life this way, I will preach it and help others.'
I don't think people take issue with him being masculine and enjoying a particular dynamic in his personal romantic relationships. He preaches that every man should think exactly like he does and degrades the ones who don't.  If he was just saying "hey, this is my experience, this is what works for me and gives me self-esteem and sense of greater purpose in life" then fine, but he takes it to extremes. Promoting the idea that "real men shouldn't cry", "people who say they can have fun without alcohol are liars",  saying that he "never apologizes" because he "never makes mistakes." That is some weirdo narcissistic stuff.


Personally, he sounds like a teenage a boy projecting an a very superficial image of what it means to be a "real man." Being independent, in control of your emotions, having the ability to be a good resource for those around you, etc. those are good qualities for any human to have. Not just men. 
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@TWS1405
I'm just looking over the blogs "facts," and they're a little wonky:

FACT: A little less than half of the 6% black male population (3%) commit over 50% of the entire nation's #murders and non-negligent manslaughters. Not #whites. Not #Hispanics. #Blackmales
I’m going to start with a nitpick: Your blog is claiming here that 3% of black men commit over half of the nation’s murders and non-negligent manslaughters. Those numbers don’t add up. As of 2020 there were 199,100,00  black men living in the United States. 3% of 19.91 million is 597,300.

In 2020, there were 6,380 black people (gender not specified, so the real number pertaining to just black men is going to be a little lower than this) arrested for murder or non-negligent manslaughter: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

That’s a lot less that 3%, that’s not even 1% of the black male population.

FACT: Black males murder more whites than vice versa. The rate of murders by blacks with white victims is staggering and flies in the face of the left's and MSM assertion otherwise. 
White people make up the majority of the population, black people are more likely to have more interactions with white people than vice versa in general not just pertaining to crime. It’s not “staggering”, it’s expected that members of the minority will have more interactions with the majority (good or bad) than vice versa.

Still, both white and black people are more likely to be attacked by members of their own race at similar rates.

FACT: The only race second to blacks who commit the most mass shootings are #Asians. Not whites. Not Hispanics. But the #MSM and leftist #whiteguilt #liberals, along with braindead #democrats, will protest endlessly that white people are the problem and none other, thereby #denying the well documented fact-based truth is that proportionally, black males are the true mass murderers in this country, not whites. 
Do you have a source for this? Because every piece of data I could find puts Asian people on the lower end of violent (or any kind really) crime perpetrators, and Hispanics third to white and black people. For example: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43

The reality is, poverty is more of the greater indicator toward violent crime than race. If black people are more likely to be poor, then they are more likely to commit crime. That does not mean that most or even a significant amount of black people are criminals.

I'm going to go for a wild guess, and say that you probably don't believe that systemic racism against black people exists. But I have come across a lot of data that suggests it does (if you want to get into that, we can), society keeps black communities in a negative cycle. It's helped by people such as those who have written the articles you have sourced, to create a "boogey man" of black men, by highlighting individual cases of black violence to support a gross generalization of black males as being the, as your blog called it, "the true mass murders." It creates fear where there doesn't need to be fear. It's irrational. 

The only other note, is that it seems like your blog is focusing on the media's portrayal of mass shooters as being white men. The mass media focuses on shootings with a significant amount of death, and usually that was pre-planned with a manifesto and all that. Location matters as well, schools are always going to get prime time news spots over club shootings (unless there was significant death). It's also probable that if a shooting is happening in predominantly black area, and the parties knew each other, your average viewer isn't as invested as they would be if it happened at a parade, a school, church, supermarket, etc. It's about viewership at the end of the day. Usually white males are the ones who commit those types of shootings that have the manifesto, and have large death counts. The black mass shooters that were highlighted in the blog, they shot multiple people but number of deaths were between 0-3. Not enough for people to tune in (which is sad, any death is bad).  
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Liberals like BLM and ANTIFA are the domestic terrorists
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@TWS1405
Comparing the BLM riots, theft and billions in property damages along with the overt acts of violence to the sophomoric outbursts and minor property destruction of sports fans is a false equivalency fallacy. 

Well, you're right in that sports fans usually only go up to a few million in damages at their worst, but the opportunities (a big championship or world series) for these riots to  have an opportunity to happen, don't happen every day, and they only impact one city at a time (wherever the game was), where as with the BLM protests we are talking about thousands of protests and demonstrations all over the world over a period of 5 months. Over 7 thousand protests and demonstrations, the numbers are expected to be bigger by comparison. And still those protests were overwhelmingly peaceful.

My point is that we don't demonize an entire group based on the negative actions of the minority within that group (whether they are sports fans or political protesters), which it would seem like you are trying to do.
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Liberals like BLM and ANTIFA are the domestic terrorists
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@Vici
BLM is a terrorist organisation. They literally riot and steal, under the label of fighting for black people. Funnily, most blm chants consists of white people. 

Between May and August of 2020, there were over 7,200 BLM protests and demonstrations. 93% of them were peaceful: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

There were a minority of incidents that were not peaceful, but there are bad eggs in every group. Just look at sports riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_riot), I wouldn't call the Red Sox a terrorist organizations because their fans loose it whenever they win or loose a world series.
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@RationalMadman

The latter lose and are outperformed, always, 100% of the time. You will never get a Laurel Hubbard of the reverse trans kind outperforming peak cis male athletes at pretty much any sport other than perhaps gymnastics.

Find me an exception, this has been allowed especially in something like Marathons (a trans man officially competed as a male).

None of this relates to the point I was raising in my original post (saying that rans-men desiring to compete with and against cis-men is not the same as saying they would dominate the competition). You have trouble staying on-topic. Anyway, I've only looked into trans-women competing in women's sports because that is all most people seem to care about.

To play with your point just a little bit: I don't necessarily disagree that it's hard to envision a trans-male athlete "dominating the competition" (though there are very few out there, and it would depend on the sport). But as far as you're comment about trans-men "lose and are outperformed, always, 100% of the time." Found a trans-male pro boxer, Patricio Manuel, he has beaten won against a cis-man. ESPN ran a story about him a day or so ago. So, I think we will see trans-male athletes who can compete against other men successfully on a professional level. That's definitely a reasonable expectation. Again, it's a wait and see. 


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@ILikePie5
Sure but you have yet to convey that in this scenario. A trans woman as a goalie compared to a cis woman still holds a superior pelvic structure which allows them to jump further, kick further, etc.
I'll be a bit more specific and break this down a little bit:

Characteristics of a good goal keeper: good jumping ability, great agility, solid catching, and fast reflexes. A physical characteristic that is going to be very important is height. You're average height for a goal-keeper on the US Women's National Soccer Team is about 5'9.

Pelvic structure might help with power, but that's only one piece to a larger puzzle.. There's a few different ways a trans-woman's "advantages" would not carry over post-HRT even if they transitioned while in adulthood. For example, the ability to move a larger-framed body with less muscle mass (due to HRT) has negative impact on a trans-woman's agility (not enough muscle mass to move the frame with high efficiancy). The lack of agility would also have negative impact on their ability to jump further and maintain fast reflexes. A cis woman with the appropriate amount of muscle mass for her frame would not experience these set-backs in agility.

I will also backtrack to your point about lung capacity. I did a bit more research. The bone structure of the diaphragm may not change post HRT, but hemoglobin levels do. They drop. Which has a proportional direct effect on VO2max levels. Meaning they don't exactly maintain that advantage. So, I guess that leaves pelvic structure, size of heart, and potential muscle memory (it appears the verdict is still out). But still no clear overall advantages.

I guess this is all to say, that you can't just look at the advantages without also studying how HRT impacts various parts of the body.

I think you misunderstood my point but ig I could have been more clear. Ofc they’re going to hire people less than 6’0 lol. But my point was they’re more likely to hire a 6’0 than a 5’6 person because of the advantage conferred. My point is that a 5’6 trans women still holds advantages that even a 6’0 male doesn’t have. It’s like having a 5’6 cis male from the NBA participate in WNBA against a 6’0 cis woman. The male wins everytime because wot the body structure which allows for dunks and hard lay ups, etc. A trans woman still brings this advantage conferred in men to a cis woman sport.

I'll reiterate my points above for this as well. There are clear advantages between cis-men and cis-women. Those advantages become less clear when HRT enters into the conversation. The fact that most of your arguments still rely on comparisons of cis-men and cis women without consideration of HRT show that there really isn't enough evidence for your side.

It would seem there is still a lot of research to be done, and perhaps we are in "too close to call" territory. Sports scientists can't seem to figure out if there is a true advantage, and if there is, how significant of an advantage. The fact is trans-women make up less than 0.6% of the population. And an even smaller percentage would be pursuing a career of a professional athlete. Laurel Hubbard is first transgender athlete to be chosen to compete at the Olympics, and trans people have been allowed to compete at the Olympics since 2004. It's going to take a while to see this have any real impact on women's sports, if it ever does. From my understanding, the few professional trans-women athletes that are competing have all experienced loses to cis-women. So, from my knowledge, we have yet to see a trans-woman athlete "win every time."



Everyone knows the reason why trans women choose to compete in cis women sports is cause it’s easier. Gender identity is only a ridiculous justification for it. And as RM mentioned, a disgrace to every aspect of women’s rights and sports.
This is a very silly thing to assume. The reality is, trans-women want to compete in cis-women's sports for the same reason trans-men want to compete in cis-male sports.

It doesn't matter if it's a trans-woman who wants to play on a woman's basketball team, a trans-man who wants to be apart of the male soccer team, or a trans-girl who wants to be apart of the girl-scouts, etc. To say that the reason they want to compete against cis women is "because it's easier", ignores the reality that trans people are always going to be included as the gender they identify as, not the gender they don't, regardless of whether we're talking about sports or not. The reason why? Gender dysphoria: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255


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@ILikePie5


No. I left out the part where even after you lose muscle it’s easy to gain back because of muscle memory. Transwomen already have an inherent advantage. It’s simply unfair to the cis woman who has been practicing her entire life for this only to be defeated by a trans woman who is physiologically superior.
Trans women are not going to gain back the same muscle they had pre-HRT. But you're right in that there is some question as to how much they retain. It seems the results are mixed. I would still say this is a good point, but all of the research I've seen (including research that suggest trans-women to hold onto advantage in muscle strength) suggests there is still a lot more research to be done before any real conclusions can be drawn. I'll leave this point for now.

I disagree. They’re inherent in virtually every sport that requires any form of strength.
I mean, obviously being a goalie on a soccer team and being a runner are going to rely on different advantages. The significance is going to vary.


Trans women have more stamina contributed by their larger heart and placement of diaphragm muscles. The way you characterize it, there’s no measurable way you could make that a rule even if you wanted too. In my opinion a 5’6 trans women wouldn’t even play in the WNBA because they’re that short - a physical attribute which is unchangeable.

I disagree. Your analogy lacks merit. A 5’6 transwomen would never play in the WNBA in the first place because they’re short which is a physical attribute. Your what if scenario doesn’t work lol.

Being short is an inherent disqualifier in terms of basketball regardless of your sex at birth lol
Well, I'll help out your "opinion" a little bit here (a quick google search could have helped you out as well): Like I said, the average WNBA player tends to be 6'0 (or around there), but the shortest ever was 5'2. There have been other players 5'6 and under as well. So, you're wrong. But that's fine. My point is that short players obviously have to be very good or have benefits in other ways to counteract their lack of height. So, at what point is an advantage truly significant when there are multiple factors that determine an athlete's performance? And how significant are those advantage when the player also has clear disadvantages that most other players don't share? 
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@badger
You're deciding upon whether a person can compete or not depending upon any advantages they might have or not have. Before they've run at all, if it were running, for example.

It's very silly. It's the outcomes of performances or competitions being decided by a committee. 


Eh. It would be somewhat similar to how it works for the Olympics now: Trans athlete would qualify. The committee would determine whether they are on fair playing field with cis women based on pre-determined regulations. If they're not, then they don't get to play. My version would just be more detailed. I think there would have to be some documentation essentially displaying the range of physical characteristics of the cis women players of that particular sport (muscle strength, height, weight, hormones, etc.) And see where the trans player's own physical characteristics fall within that data. If their own physical characteristics show clear overall  advantage over the other players, then they don't get to play.

Of course, this is hypothetical. I'm just spitting ideas. I'm just saying, we don't necessarily have to have such a generalized take on this, when there's obviously a lot more nuance at play.
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@badger

Your compromise sounds like match fixing. Make what you like of that, but it's silly.

You're going to have to elaborate.

"In organized sportsmatch fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law. The most common reason is to obtain a payoff from gamblers, but teams may also intentionally perform poorly to gain a future advantage, such as a better draft pick[A] or, on paper, a less eminent opponent in a play-off.[B] A player might also play poorly to rig a handicap system."

In my example, the player isn't pretending to play poorly. It's that the player in question's mix of physical advantages and disadvantages does not put them at an overall advantage against teammate or opponents.
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@RationalMadman
Wrong, don't lie about me.

I will call a trans or nonbinary person by their preferred pronouns always.

I actually personally know of a trans person IRL.
I mean, I didn't say you were a jerk. I'm sure you're very respectful. My assumption (not a lie, just my personal read) about you is that conversations around transgender people seems to trigger anxiety more than approval. You just changed the subject to a conversation about trans people in sports, to another unrelated issue with trans people (when is the appropriate age to start transitioning). That's not really a rational train of thought I'm seeing here. You're jumping from one anxiety about trans people to another anxiety about trans people with appropriately addressing any arguments.



I am disgusted singularly by the sympathy card bding abused in thr case of allowing male-sex athletes to ruin and rob females of their female-only section and its protection to allow female athletes to achieve just as well as male athletes for the same effort.
You haven't presented any evidence for trans-women who are on HRT show significant advantages. You just keeping going back to the point that men are stronger than women, no one is contesting that. It just doesn't seem like you actually know much about what HRT does.


I am further disgusted that teens are having their puberty ruined, absolutely destroyed, in order to respect the sudden frenzied cry of the adolescent that they want to never become a man or woman.

We don't let them vote (below 18) so we shouldn't let them remotely decide something like that until then. Some late bloomers only finish puberty at around 20-21 (yes, seriously, the clue is often in the facial structure and stuff) so I wouldn't want theirs interrupted.

Puberty is a natural thing all humans are biologically designed from benefitting having gone through at the end. A boy doesn't grow into a woman because you've ruined his body's development as a man.

Right. This is a separate discussion so I'll try to stay on topic. But I think that most kids who are questioning their gender, especially nowadays, are going to encounter more non-transitioning non-binary people than medically transitioned binary trans people (in real life and the interwebz). I don't think this scary influence of pro-trans politics is as influential as you think it is. 

Any sort of medical intervention for trans kids is rare and is only reserved for kids who are showing extreme dysphoria (which is not the same as simply questioning your gender or not fitting into gender stereotypes).

I won't go further into it than that. But maybe I'll start another topic on that conversation.


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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@ILikePie5
Hey, thank ya for the read! 

Here’s a great Q&A with Alison Heather, Professor of Physiology at Otago University, who co-authored a report published in the BMJ Journal of Medical Ethics. I’ll give a brief summary here and you can read the rest.

What are the physiological differences between the male and female athlete?

Many, particularly in the musculoskeletal system and the cardiorespiratory system which underpin underpin athletic performance.

The musculoskeletal system is made up of our muscles and our bones. Males have larger and stronger bones than females. This is predetermined in utero because the male embryo produces testosterone, and emerges during puberty where boys grow taller and stronger. The stronger bones of males allows them to resist more trauma.

As well as length and strength, males can have different shaped bones to females. For example, the pelvis is wider in the females and narrower in males. This creates a different angle at the hip to which the leg bones attach, which changes the amount of force that can be generated by the knee when lifting, jumping, kicking or cycling. The narrower angle in a male allows for more force. The wider hips of females also means that the elbow joint angle is larger so the hands can swing without hit the hips.

Research shows that increased testosterone leads to increased muscle mass and associated power. However, males also have a higher percentage of type II muscle fibres, the explosive muscle type. This benefits males for such sports as powerlifting, jumping and sprinting. Females have more type I fibres, and coupled with increased fat mass, have a strong endurance capability for long-distance events (eg. ultramarathons).

The bone structure of the diaphragm differs between males and females. In females, this is placed higher to allow for pregnancy, and so females inherently have a smaller lung region.

In addition to this, early life testosterone exposure in males increases the number of alveoli (little sacs in the lungs that take oxygen from the air and put it in our blood to take to the tissues of our body) and so males have a greater capacity for oxygen uptake.

Oxygen is very important for active skeletal muscle. The more oxygen, the faster and longer one can go. So males can take up more oxygen into their blood because of male physiology that was determined around birth.

Oxygenated blood is pumped around the body to active skeletal muscles by the heart. The heart is bigger in average males to average females, and this stays true even allowing for males being bigger on average than females.  So the male heart can literally pump more blood per beat and get that oxygenated blood to skeletal muscles faster and more efficiently.

This is the crux of the argument: “All of these male physiology components are regulated, at least in part, by the male sex hormone, testosterone. However, what is largely misunderstood or ignored by current debate, is it is not just current, circulating levels of testosterone that drive many of these components, but a life-long exposure to testosterone that started in utero, continued in early infancy, and then was cemented during the pubertal years.”

Trans women have had a lifetime of these innate advantages because of their chromosomes that puts them at an inherent physical advantage compared to cis-women.


So just to break this down, the areas of advantage that HRT may have no effect are:

  • Pelvis size
  • Lung capacity
  • Size of heart
I left out bone density/muscle because the studies I've read/shared here addressed the break down of bone mass and muscle atrophy under HRT, and also how bone density tends to vary more across race than gender.

But the other three, I'll accept. I guess where I'm headed is, do you think there is a compromise somewhere? Or instead of banning trans-women outright it could be a case by case basis based on the individual? The significance of those inherent advantages will vary depending on the sport, and the other advantages the trans player in question lacks. Say there is a trans-woman basketball player who is skilled and she has those three advantages listed above. But she's short. She's 5'6. The average WNBA player is 6'0. Does that handicap create a balance for her  that makes her a fair teammate/opponent? I would say that it could. And that's just one example, there's many different scenarios where a balance can be found. 


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How do you define "God"...
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@SkepticalOne
I'm an agnostic. But I have a feeling what many people experience as God, another person might call intuition, gut, or instinct. It's something you have to pay attention to, usually with a clear mind, and often times it's a muscle that has to be strengthened. 
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@RationalMadman
Yeah yeah, sure sure live in your fucking fantasy.

It's true that if they destroy a boy,  a man during his puberty being too afraid to be called transphobic and pump him full of oestrogen and damaging sterilising substances, he can then fail to develop as a man.

That's a tragedy and I'm sick of being told that to be left-wing I need to support this shit to people too young to make informed decisions that permanently damage them.


I am open to having my mind changed, I just need to see...good arguments. Trust me, my initial reaction to all of this wasn't positive either, but I like to research issues before I form a real opinion. I have a feeling a lot of people in this thread made up their mind before the research process. That's never a good thing.

But like the other poster, it seems your issue is with transgenderism in and of itself, and that's a whole other conversation before we get to any sports talk or else we'll never be on the same page.
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@RationalMadman

But higher than cis females, you know Laurel still has her testicles or am I incorrect on this?
The high risk for osteoporosis would indicate that the bone density is often low even for cis female standards. I don't know anything about Laurel's genitals. 
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@RationalMadman
Regarding bone density being higher in males and almost permanently so post-puberty. Plenty, I linked to two that both admit it. It's a well known fact in all mammals.
I linked to multiple studies that explain how HRT effects bone density. Trans-women have a much lower bone mass than cis males. One of the studies I linked also highlights that trans-women are considered high risk for osteoporosis because of the impact that HRT has on bone density/health.
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@ILikePie5

You’re not considering bone structures that are different for men and women. No amount of hormones can change your birth bone structures without affecting the rest of your body. The pelvis is the biggest of these bone structures which inherently gives males advantages in most sports.

Do you have any resources I could look at that would explain the significance of the advantages of bone structure when paired with the effects of HRT?
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@Lemming
I appreciate your thoughtfulness. It sounds like your hang up with it starts with the idea of transgenderism in and of itself. Which would be a separate, probably much longer conversation.
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@RationalMadman
Finally! Someone linking to some sources. Let's go..

Wait actually this is hilarious, you're denying basic science rn so all I have to do is give sources stating the blatant right?

Okay.

I'll give one each.

So, this article explains how men and women experience pain differently. It points to testosterone as a pain reducer. This is a quote from the article: "On the basis of his team’s experiments with castration and testosterone treatments in mice, Mogil thinks that pain pathways will be determined by hormone levels. He predicts that people with more than a certain threshold of testosterone will have pain mechanisms associated with males, and those whose testosterone falls below that level will experience pain through mechanisms common in females."

So, a trans-woman who is on testosterone blockers will experience pain in a way that is common in females. 


Explanation of non-testosterone raw vody structure advantage males have over females in almost all sports: https://www.livestrong.com/article/509536-muscular-strength-in-women-compared-to-men/
This article only explains the differences between cis men and cis women (which no one is contesting). It's does not explain the differences between trans women on HRT and cis women.


A battle between women and men (it ties them in results but concedes a huge amount of irrefutable physical advantage to males, this is a psychology article so it's more than just raw strength in what's discussed):



You can't accuse a single ine of corrupt agenda, each concedes blatant facts 
Again, no one is contesting the difference between men and women this way. What we're trying to find is what are the differences between trans-women on HRT and cis women. Are those differences significant? Does it depend on the individuals? Should it be a case by case basis? 
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@RationalMadman
Love you too, bro.
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@Lemming
Sure. I believe that trans-women who are on HRT (hormone replacement therapy), and have testosterone levels similar to or lower than that of what is allowed/expected for cis women, should be allowed to compete. I think that’s fair.

It’s important to point out: Most professional sports have very strong regulations that target hormones, there are cis women who have been kept out of competitions for having higher than allowed testosterone levels (that they produced naturally). Some might say that the regulations are too strict, but that’s another conversation and not one I’ve looked too deeply into.

A common argument against trans-women competing in women’s sports is in-regards to bone density. The idea being that the bone-density gains obtained pre-HRT don’t go away post-HRT. It’s a bit of a weird argument, because bone-density varies greatly through-out many different demographics not necessarily always aligned with gender/sex. For example, the average bone-density of African-American women is comparable to that of white males (http://courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opbmd.html). 

Multiple studies show that trans women have a high prevalence of low bone mass compared to men:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12018-019-09261-3

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230706285_Long-Term_Evaluation_of_Cross-Sex_Hormone_Treatment_in_Transsexual_Persons

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1094695008005015

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cen.13607?casa_token=7FEI23bFTPgAAAAA%3A0wOlgCmTEeIWlpQcDsqyN3cucpW5Iet6AbZVj3nOFSw2sl-GjycLMR5h5eJaAxvqG9wlwtQSXeqRnRRE

Another useful finding:

This study concludes that trans athletes maintain their skill level relative to the gender they competed against. For example, if a trans-woman competed against men before they transitioned, and performed excellently. They would also perform excellently post-transition against women. But if they were at the 50% mark pre-transition against men, then they would be at the 50% mark post-transition against women: http://xpuz.sportsci.org/2016/WCPASabstracts/ID-1699.pdf

I’ll stop there for now. I’m open to opposing arguments, but I do think this is a discussion that requires a lot of nuance and less generalizations. The stance that no trans-women being allowed to compete makes less sense to me than certain trans-women should be allowed to compete as long as they meet the right criteria.
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
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@RationalMadman
I get why people have a negative reaction to trans people competing in sports. Superficially, a negative reaction makes sense. But upon further research, I think trans women competing with cis women is fine as long as they fall within the regulations.
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New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
"WELLINGTON, New Zealand -- Weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will be the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics.
Hubbard was among five weightlifters confirmed Monday in New Zealand's team for Tokyo. At 43, she will also be the oldest weightlifter at the games, and will be ranked fourth in the competition on Aug. 2 for women 87 kilograms (192 pounds) and over."

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Overrated Music Artists/Bands
I'm going with post-90s Green Day. Their songs about being bored were more interesting than their songs about politics(which just like a weird parody of punk). 

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Double Standard For Females
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@Vader
First things first, I don't promote any unhealthy eating habits described in this post. I believe being overweight is not a good thing (as I was once overweight in my life and hated it), but I am only here to promote a double standard females set for themselves while contrasting it to other men

Body positivity is something that has been floating around with females and how you should feel comfortable in your own skin. The message itself was started by third of fourth wave feminism which I actually think is a good message. Being happy with yourself and your own skin makes you succeed more in life, as various studies conducted by experts in mental health have proven this. The message they created is a great message, but the problem then becomes the double standard.

When I was a male, I struggled with the same love for myself that women do, hating my weight and myself for it. I decided to lose weight so I could love myself again. This standard of body positivity could be applied to men as well (men who don't have toned abs, dark hair or blonde hair, etc.), but modern feminists yet again demean men for their weight while trying to hold us to the standard they want without holding themselves accountable as well. 

The lack of holding themselves to the same standards they want for others goes to prove that modern feminism is nothing more than the defamation of men so that women can be superior to their male counterparts, only proving that the ideas shared of this feminism are extremely dangerous, and how the ideas they share are double standards for themselves, but hey, since the Democrats run everything, you might as well just push the nonsensical bullshit legislation going on. 
Eh. I don't think I've "modern feminists" demean men for their weight. My problem with these types of takes is that, feminist based movements were started by women who were fed up by some aspect of society that was hurting them. Men are very capable of doing the same thing, but I often see some men choose to complain about how there is no movement for them...instead of just creating one or engaging in the ones that already exist.

I think that historically women's looks have been scrutinized more heavily than men's , so they have been the primary focus for the body positive movement. Though I have noticed that queer men are often involved in the movement as well. I think it's harder for straight men to be open about those types of insecurities, but I think we're starting to see a change. Jonah Hill made a social media post that went viral and was very much celebrated detailing his insecurities about swimming without a shirt. We just need to see more of that vulnerability from men.

Actually, just google "male body positivity" and you'll see that it's becoming more talked about:




And let's not forget the celebration of the "dad bod":

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Tried to use my DebateArt skills on Twitter.
Twitter is like intellectual fast food. It's quick and easy, and bad for you in the long run. It's a sometimes food. 
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ALL LIVES MATTER
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@Intelligence_06
As a "fan" of Billie Eilish, I find it completely ironic at her criticism of "All lives matter", as she says "Stop making everything about you".

Black people are making the movement about themselves, or it at least appears so, because "Black lives matter" as the title does not include other minorities. Changing one word isn't that hard.

Stop making everything about you, Black people. We never said you don't matter when we said All lives matter. You are lives, you matter. There are other groups of people that need help just like you, the LGBT, the Muslim immigrants... Black lives matter isn't enough. All lives matter. All of them. Change the slogan. This isn't just about black people.

As someone who doesn't really follow Billie Eilish, I think the idea behind her statement may be that we live in a society that has often ignored many issues that are big within the black community, and has centered white people (there are benefits to being apart of a majority). So, white people being offended that something doesn't include their experiences comes across as hypocritical and unnecessary.

Black Lives Matter is about shedding light on prevalent in the black community. The problem with "All Lives Matter" is that, while it's true, it's not specific enough. If an organization becomes too broad in what it's trying to accomplish then it becomes very easy for people within the minority of that organization to fall through the cracks. We have organizations like the ACLU that cover the "All Lives Matter" approach. We have the Human Rights Campaign that centers LGBT issues, American Immigration Council that focuses specifically on issues that immigrants face, Muslim Advocates which centers anti-Muslim bigotry, etc. 

Issues and experiences that are prevalent in one community may not be prevalent in all communities so it's helpful to have multiple organizations that can speak in detail to the specific issues a particular community might face. Back to ACLU, they have included police brutality in their fight since the 1950s, but that's not all they focus on. They focus on many issues that affect many different communities, and it's important and beneficial work. Yet, in recent years, their campaigns have not make the same impact that Black Lives Matter did in regards to racism in law enforcement/legal system/society. Black Lives Matter influenced the ACLU on re-centering issues of racism in law enforcement/legal system, and ACLU has been a big support to BLM. It helps to have organizations/movements that center specific issues to make impact and change. These organizations can also work along side each other. 

Black Lives Matter has also been active in issues affecting immigration, LGBTQ, non-black victims of police brutality, etc. At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. If you're getting hung up on the name, then you don't (and some are resistant to) understand the context.
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The troops want a new commander in chief
It came as a shock, then, when the Military Times reported on Monday: “In the latest results — based on 1,018 active-duty troops surveyed in late July and early August — nearly half of respondents (49.9 percent) had an unfavorable view of the president, compared to about 38 percent who had a favorable view. Questions in the poll had a margin of error of up to 2 percent.” Forty-two percent had a very unfavorable view of President Trump. The bottom line: “Among active-duty service members surveyed in the poll, 41 percent said they would vote for Biden, the Democratic nominee, if the election was held today. Only 37 percent said they plan to vote to re-elect Trump.”
*
The Military Times poll confirms some of their concerns. For example, “Only about 17 percent of those surveyed felt the White House has properly handled reports that Russian officials offered bounties for Afghan fighters to target and kill American troops, an issue Trump has dismissed as unreliable intelligence. Nearly 47 percent disagreed with his statements.” When it comes to deploying troops domestically to quell protests, as Trump has suggested repeatedly, 74 percent of respondents were opposed. Interestingly, “Troops agreed with Trump’s assessment of China as a national security threat (nearly 87 percent called it a significant concern) but ranked Russia (81 percent) well above Iran (58 percent). Only about 21 percent of troops saw immigration as a significant national security issue, but 48 percent identified white nationalists as a concern.”
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