drafterman

Detroit has been in a free territory and later was in a free state with no legal slavery. How could you possibly imagine legalized slavery in other areas of the country caused Detroit to become the shithole it is today compared to other far more significant local factors?

There’s no such thing as obstruction of Congress.

The OP did not say that the Big bang theory posited something from nothing. He said it has no explanation for something from nothing. We know the universe was not always here, yet now it is.

Didn't you say,..

We have evidence that there once wasn’t life and evidence that there was life. No faith required.

Obviously no logic required either. So now there is life, why is your assumption of abiogenesis correct?

Especially when no instance of abiogenesis has ever been observed in all of history?

We also observe order from chaos as well. Crystals form intricate and regular structures, random rules can create order geometric shapes. There is no violation of scientific principle.

Shapes are not order.

You simply call one shape "order" over another. In the context of the OP, "order" is analogous to information. Information cannot come about from chaos.

Well, that’s just like, your opinion, man.

It may also be his opinion, but he is correct. We are made of atoms. Atoms cannot think, or feel, or love.

The OP said,

No matter how organized, it is impossible for physical material to produce the immaterial realities of human consciousness. Our morality, beliefs, desires and preferences all exist outside of mere physical matter.

Though no one can yet explain how this is so, the fact remains that our consciousness exists outside of mere physical matter.

These are brute facts that cannot be dismissed by materialists.

so you think NDEs are just people hallucinating consistently themed afterlife stories when they die? what a stupid belief system you have 

Not from a Theistic point of view, which I believe the OPer is coming from.

We are talking about the life that transcends evolution and physical forms and why those processes happen.

Close your eyes, stop thinking and focus on the observer. Then know that it is proposed that you exist beyond your physical form, now you are no longer unaware. Being unaware would mean you have not been presented with either an experience or some other source of information. I would suggest looking into other sources to expand your data base.

I'm bringing to your attention two separate things here, the start of the Big bang and evolution. Both are processes of a Creator and that is my position. You asserted life began on earth and I'm saying you have no basis for that claim, and have no basis for the claim non-life existed prior to the Big bang.

That would include life Drafterman. If they are silent on what preceded the Big bang that includes consciousness/life.

Through series of genetic mutations and selective sexual pressures over billions of years.

That would be conjecture and assumption not fact.

You base your conclusions off the premise or assumption no life precedes forms on planet earth even though you admit what preceded the Big bang they are silent on, see what I mean? you base your conclusion off of conjecture. 

I don't know what you are saying or asking here.

I'm trying to get you to look at the processes and why they occurred. Correlating processes with intelligence and a mind is the starting point.

Right, we know we have bodies without souls

Nice assumption, we know we do have souls without bodies. See how that works lol?

but I've never seen a soul without a body.

Perhaps, but you are aware that a soul could exist independent of physical bodies right?

No evidence of spirituality or NDEs.

They are included as evidence, meaning they are evidence. Why is it atheists have no idea that testimonials ARE evidence lol??

Probably accurate dealing with evolution...but again, you can assert only life happens within forms on planet earth but that is a claim based on zero evidence. You're talking about the evolution of bodies, I'm talking about how evolution occurs in the first place. Ask yourself how inanimate matter produces intelligent processes and sentient beings?

The processes of our universe existed before the development of this planet and forms, and processes are associated with minds and intelligence. Correlation is the key here, instead of looking at effects articulate and look for the cause.. it's an assertion to claim conscious life did not exist prior to life on this planet. You should be asking yourself why processes occur, why energy acks as intelligence in what it produces? why should you be asking that? because you don't want to be focusing on only effects and not causes. If you accept an inferior proposition that doesn't really know how could you ever expand with another proposition that may be true? consciousness is fully articulated in spirituality whereas admittedly we are limited by our scientific understanding.

It may be a rational conclusion based upon how you interpret the evidence (not facts) if you think it's rational to accept something that is silent on the matter. Sure.

Thanks for the opinion. But is that how you approach all propositions including your own?

It's not obvious to you, you are first a conscious being and not a series of impulses or neural firing? I would say fine, but perhaps consider another way of understanding.

Well you are that, you are just making the assumption that your brain creates your conscious being and nobody really knows why because consciousness is yet an open question in the scientific community. So the only way you could have arrived at that conclusion is from atheism. Because science is silent on that matter too (consciousness/aka soul), sure it can find activity within the brain but there's activity within the brain because there is a conscious alive being that interfaces with the brain. When the soul leaves the body the brain returns to dead matter.

Now, if you were to consider spirituality along with NDE's and spiritual encounters (God forbid) you no longer have to be unaware of the soul. The soul and consciousness have been proposed through spirituality for a long long time sir. No reason to be unaware of anything unless you choose to be.

If you are silent on what came before the Big bang or how it happened how can you say for a fact that there was ever "non-life"?

I'm not aware that anyone claimed at one point there wasn't life.

So where is there evidence that life or the universe came from non-life?

you would have to make the assumption that there was no life but why?

To make matters more complicated faith isn't belief without evidence that is a contradiction (misconception) to what faith means and its purpose.

The Big bang of course came from a conscious Reality which is why it occurred in the first place.

This enabled the Creator more "tools" to create with obviously. Coming from a spiritual viewpoint there was/is first an omnipresent conscious activity/reality, which generates and also co-exists with energy. The amount of energy generated from an omnipresent Reality is unimaginable and it was from this Source that energy was condensed and released to create what we label the Big bang. This was the starting point at which God began the processes we observe in our universe but there was never a point in existence where there was non-life, and certainly not non-life creating life and sentient beings.

What he probably means is to appeal to commonsense and what is obvious to your own experience as a conscious being.

Sure, the physical bodies can be articulated that way but not the conscious soul, it exists independent of physical forms. The material forms are how we interface with creation.

Why can't a user just not respond to an individual who upsets them?