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@Stephen
OK. So if I make a claim any claim about anything are you going to accept my claim without any supporting evidence or proof?
No. But I would not think that you owe me proof. You can give proof if you want, or not give it if you don't want. I've told you I don't really care what you believe. I was answering someone else's question about why I believed something when you barged in demanding "proof" of what I believe. I need offer you no "proof" of why I believe something, and asking for proof of a belief is kinda silly.
You was also told that you couldn't use "because the Bible says so". But that didn't stop you telling us that it was verses in the bible to believe it was true. Which, to my own delight, you did by quoting two verses from the bible that tell you us caused you to "find out" it is true
The verses told me what to do in order to find out if the words were true. I did it and found out the bible is true. Had I done it and not found out, I would have concluded the bible is not true. All you need is to read more slowly and take off the bias glasses.
I see no reason I need to "prove" my basis to you. Do you know of a reason I should?
Yes, you have made an unsupported claim.
How does that obligate me to you? My claim is about why I believe something. I do not need to "prove to you why I believe things. You either accept or reject my reason. Either way, I don't really care cause I'm not seeking your approval.
Oh and I agree with you totally.
Then your attempt at sarcasm was silly. You seem to have a problem with TS. I'm the wrong person to tell it to as I think TS is superior to you in just about every way that matters. Either way, I don't care. I'm talking to you, let's keep the focus between us and our positions on the topic.
Here you are right from the Reverends mouth...
I don't know what this has to do with you or me. Stay on topic.
Yet here you are, telling us that just 40 words out of the 783,137 in the bible, caused you to "find out" the bible was all true.
Reading comprehension Stephen. Finding out that I got exactly what the words told me I would get if I followed their directions proved to me that they were true. Calm down and think a little. Why should my personal belief throw you into a lather?
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@dustryder
Let's be honest. Whether or not a qualified election official calls it, you'll invent your own reality and call it a day anyway.
No matter what I call it, Biden is not the winner till it is called. But if you're omniscient, I don't have a chance do I?
That comes later when evidence is brought forth.
You've already convicted Trump. What "evidence" fed that conclusion if you know evidence is yet to be brought forth? Or perhaps your current position is not based on evidence?
However Biden has won these states. Therefore it can be flipped.
Biden has won nothing till he is declared the winner. He has not been. You must pretend Biden has won to conclude the State is flippable. Pretense makes for poor arguments.
How true is it is immaterial when it comes to this.
Eh. How true it is that the vote was corrupt is material to me and 78 million other Americans. But then, we're conservatives, truth matters to us.
All of what you've said is fake news. So your point is moot.
The impeachment was by a single party, that is a fact. The fake whistleblower was found to have been in communication with Adam Schiff's office though Mr. Schiff had previously denied it. That the Obama administration spied on Trump is a matter on record. Who do you think spied on Carter Page?
So to reiterate, no widespread election fraud has been found thus far.
Then why have several counties and states refused to certify the votes? Why have courts found that Governors and election officials were unconstitutional? Why have the courts not thrown out the cases? Why are you pretending not to see my points?
Yawn conspiracy theory. Yawn yawn yawn.
So you tell us what that email between the two crooked FBI lover agents meant by having an "insurance policy" that would stop Trump from winning the election? Droning the phrase "conspiracy theory" is not a counter argument.
Your priority may be the likelihood of Trump winning, my priority is the validity of the 2020 election. Either way, I will wait till a court of jurisdiction decides.
That's great! You should be in total support of quashing these fake and bogus election fraud probes then.
Conservatives prefer to let due process work. That is why justice Kavenaugh was not borked and the election still has not been called. My constitution values courts, and does not convict till after investigations are done.
The relevance of this to your original contention is what exactly?
You lied that no one had done that.
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@zedvictor4
Do you know Bro D personally?
No. But I know the loser website he's from. He has an account there.
I just get the impression that it's all an act.
That is the intent of the site. But as you know, sometimes unstable people take it a little to seriously and get lost in the mime. Sometimes, the lines between the act and reality blur for some already unstable people. It happened to the actor Andy Kaufman. Ever heard of him?
And we will have to ask Trade to clarify things.
There is nothing TS has to clarify for me, as a persons gender, sex, or political leanings make no difference, only their behavior and what they post matters.
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@zedvictor4
I have no doubt that Trade is sincere....I was referring to Bro D's acting.
I thought one had to be conscious of it for it to be acting? For example, is the guy who thinks he's god acting or us he deluded?
And I am led to believe that Trade is female.....Correct me if I am wrong.
What leads you to believe that? I hope not the latent misogyny of a certain one of his stalkers.
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@zedvictor4
Logic decides.
People who pretend truth cannot be found because liars exist are probably liars themselves.
Logic exists precisely because people have different points of view.
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@zedvictor4
And I hope that you were aware, that once again I argued your case.
I saw that. It was pleasant, but not a surprise.
I have been tempted to post the contents of the PMs between Ragnar and I to show how he lied, but I think I like a few days before giving him an excuse to ban me again.
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@zedvictor4
His behaviour is part of his act.
Trade secret is genuine. He has no act. Schtick is for the clueless.
Whereas one got the impression that your behaviour was emotional.
Ones who are emotional sure. As the good book says, to the impure, all things are impure.
Do we now have the new mellower Mr Ethan?
After the mods ban me again and then lie about it in posts you'll have your answer.
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@Tradesecret
The only flawless system is the one His Majestic Excellency governs.
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@Checkmate
You may be the most rational and honest atheist I know.
How about stealing? Do you also not know why it is wrong?
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Yeah, God probably wouldn't actually show up. Not because he isn't able to, if he is omnipotent he could do it right now. It's more likely because he doesn't actually exist unfortunately.
It never fails to amaze me that atheists think God should/would "show up" if He actually existed. Why they think this has never been explained to me.
Amazing also is that they seem not to be able to conceive of any reason why God would not "show up". Really?
The consistency and persistency of these irrational beliefs fascinate me.
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@ILikePie5
In a way yes. We are at the stage now where we torture the POW for his war crimes.
I just have to ask. What is your favorite pie? Mine are peach and pecan.
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@dustryder
How do you know its a fact if all the votes have not been counted and election officials have not called the vote?
Basic reasoning and balance of probability?
Elections in America are not called on "basic reason and probability". At least for now. I will KNOW when a qualified election official calls it.
You, like most liberals, seem not to need election officials or due process.
Let's examine this logically.
Legal votes count. Logical votes don't.
Biden is currently leading in the supposedly contested states by some margin of votes.
This is only if you pretend that "contested" has no meaning.
There are very few remaining uncounted votes, such that they cannot surpass the margin. Hence Trump cannot flip these states by simply counting any remaining votes.
Well, a state not won by Biden cannot be "flipped". If your argument cannot be reasonable unless you pre-assume it is correct, it probably isn't correct.
The only recourse Trump has is overturning votes through court action. How likely is this?
How likely it is is immaterial. What we want to know is, how true is it?
Well, we know that widespread voter fraud has never occurred previously.
No single party presidential impeachment had ever occurred previously. No fake whistleblower had ever been planted by Adam Schiff previously. No sitting president had ever spied on a presidential candidate previously. So?
We know that as of yet, there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud for this election.
That is the mass media lie you've been spoon fed. But its good to see liberals have been beaten back to adding in " widespread". At first they just said, "no voter fraud". Dominium is a problem. Burst water pipes is a problem. Whistle blowers on election fraud is a problem. State AG's, Governors, and election officials who have been deemed to have violated the condtitution by the courts is a problem. Wake up man!
We know that Trump's own officials have stated that this was one of the most secure elections in US history.
Trump's own officials said they had an "insurance policy" to ensure he didn't win. Those same "officials just spent 4 years telling us that Russia meddled in the 2016 election.
Apart from this, he'd have to prove that this occurred in several states, for a number of votes that surpasses all known cases of voter fraud in history. Not very likely at all.
Your priority may be the likelihood of Trump winning, my priority is the validity of the 2020 election. Either way, I will wait till a court of jurisdiction decides.
And obviously, Trump will remain president until Jan 20th. No one has said otherwise.
Facebook has removed " President" from his official account. Mainstream news outlets are calling Biden "President-elect". A few democratic idiots are saying Trump should be removed from office before Jan. Some are saying Trump should be barred from intelligence briefings.
Where do liberals keep the reality they jettison?
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@Dr.Franklin
Great Doc!
Good to see you're still inoculating liberals with doses of reality.
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@Dr.Franklin
im not quite sure the problem here? where does it say John performs the miracles?
So far, only in Stephen's brilliant post.
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@fauxlaw
Oh sorry. He's wailed for me to leave "his" thread too.
Lol. If this keeps up, the only person allowed to post will be Stephen himself. What a religion board that would be! Only one person able to post, and he's an atheist!
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@Checkmate
Well, when posting this forum, I really couldn't think about a possible answer. Why is murder wrong?
This brings up immediate questions to me.
1. If you can find no reason for why murder is wrong, have you ever murdered anyone?
2. If no, what stops you from murder since you can't find any reason why its wrong?
3. If someone was killing your loved one, would you stop them?
4. If yes, why when by your own standard they aren't doing anything wrong?
To me, there is no answer so I wasn't shocked to find out that everyone was the same as me.
Not everyone is like you in this regard.
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@Stephen
Why are you afraid of me being on your threads?
You, an atheist, will come to a religion board and ask a theist to leave? Does that make sense to you?
I do not have to leave, your asking does not obligate me. I will post where I want and when I want. You are free to block me or ignore my posts. But you will not control me.
Why are liberals always trying to control others?
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@ludofl3x
You didn't need to verify that your position was weak. We all saw it. But thanks.
Another atheist who suddenly becomes an ultra literal fundamentalist as soon as he sees a bible. Funny.
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@Checkmate
Are you surprised that no one could tell you WHY murder is wrong?
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@Stephen
It was you that come onto my own thread.
This isn't your thread.
I didn't invite you and this thread isn't yours.
I didn't say it was. Your invite doesn't make me have to come, just as your request for me to leave doesn't make me have to leave.
I can take it then that you will not be engaging me any more.
I will post anywhere I want at any time I want till the mods show me that its a coc violation. I suggest you do the same.
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@Stephen
You made a claim. You haven't supported your won claims. It is a baseless claim made only from what only you believe you heard , seen or read. It is a totally unsupported claim.
Why do you think I need to prove it to you?
You were asked it the bible true?
I was asked, "What, exactly, is your basis for believing that the Bible is True?"
I gave my basis. I see no reason I need to "prove" my basis to you. You overestimate the importance of your opinion to me. I don't really care if you believe me.
Do you know of a reason I should?
Marvelous how magical a few words in a book can be isn't it, Ethang5 ?
You may not know it, but literature is a multi-billion dollar industry, and all those magical movies start out as words in books. I guess its too late for you to become a reader, what with your reading comprehension issues and all.
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@Theweakeredge
Do you want yo be a mod here? Cause your age...s'cuse me, your chances are good.
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@zedvictor4
And one could easily read the the same cause and effect implications into your reasoning,...
But not his behavior.
Again, equality does not mean truth.
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@Theweakeredge
So you're denying the fact that god commanded the destruction of several communities?
If it is a fact, why are you having trouble pointing one of these facts out? Are bibles outlawed where you live? Is your information hearsay and 2nd hand?
I don't really care about your bias. I don't really care what you think of the bible or Christianity. But I do like those topics. So if you wish to debate them, I will do so on facts and not your pop-christian knowledge.
Another question. Obama sent soldiers to war. Do you think he is guilty of murder? If you are one of those atheists who thinks only the theist are to answer questions, then have a pleasant day.
I like your user name BTW. Thought provoking.
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@Stephen
What part about that bugs you?
None of it.
Then why do you think I need to prove anything to you?
I find what you have said above extremely fascinating. I really do.
That is Christian doctrine 101. You are supposed to be an expert on it no?
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@dustryder
Doesn't actually negate the fact that he received the most electoral votes and this won't change.
How do you know its a fact if all the votes have not been counted and election officials have not called the vote? You, like most liberals, seem not to need election officials or due process.
Trump will remain president till Jan 20th no matter what your fake news sites tell you, and if the courts uphold his contention, much longer than that.
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@Theweakeredge
No, that wasn't my claim, what I did was claim that it wasn't out of character for god to command someone to kill someone.
So something that never happened in 6,000 years of God's dealing with humanity, and which is a logical impossibility, was a characteristic of God? My bible tells me that a non christian cannot know God because the nature of God is understood by the spirit.
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
Lol. OK.
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@Stephen
will find out whether my teaching comes from God
I found out His teaching comes from God.
How?
Read the text. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God.
No. Just because you say " you found out", hasn't and doesn't prove a damn thing
Doesn't it depend on WHAT I found out?
What makes you believe that you have found out anything? Where did you find it out, who or what revealed it to you ? Did this supposed revelation change your life?
Irrelevant to the OP's question. He asked what makes me believe the bible is true. Jesus said that if I choose to do the will of God, I would find out whether His words were true. I found out. That is what makes me believe the bible is true. What part about that bugs you?
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@Stephen
So you have never contemplated those awkward stories above and contradictory verses above then. I should have known better than to expect you to take them on,
If it bothers you that I won't play your never ending musical chairs, you will be bothered a lot.
I've beaten you on every lame thread you've brought up, so much so that you start cursing, and crying for me to leave your thread. You somehow get a kick from posting "contradictions", I have no such disorder.
Settle one topic before you ooze to another. Otherwise, play your games with someone who is interested in musical chairs.
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@ludofl3x
The question isn't about what happened. You said god never commands anyone to kill anyone else, yet here he is, commanding Abraham to kill his son and offer him as a burnt offering
And yet, his son was NOT killed even though he was offered. I will just have to accept that you are not capable of understanding the text, that happens sometimes. Since I know you to be smart, I will chalk it up to bias and not IQ.
We can agree to disagree.
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@dustryder
The general idea is that the person who undermined the legitimacy of the election before the election even occurred, is now meritlessly contesting the results of the election. Big surprise.
How do liberals like you forget the four years of democrats undermining the legitimacy of the 2016 election? Didn't the Obama administration spy on candidate Trump? Didn't every news mainstream new media outlet say Biden was ahead in a blue wave? Who said that Biden should no concede "no matter what"?
How do liberals manage to "not see" so much reality?
The fact that you have already decided that Trumps case has no merit shows your bias and disdain for due process. I bet you think Kavenaugh was guilty of rape too.
Biden is not he winner till all disputes have been resolved and official election authorities have declared him the winner. Till then, you are only displaying the depth of your TDS.
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@Stephen
will find out whether my teaching comes from God
I found out His teaching comes from God. It therefore follows that the bible is true.
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@ludofl3x
Exactly. As a burnt offering. Which is something that's dead, according to rationale and reason and also the text.
Yet Isaac did not die. And according to you, the same person asking for that death is the one who prevented it. I guess that seems logical to you. It doesn't to me.
The offering and the killing are different things. You conflate them because that satisfies your bias. Isaac did not die because God did not want his death. I know this because God stopped his death. Logic is sweet no?
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@Theweakeredge
If god is saying that they should kill nations - god is commanding someone to kill another person.
OK. This is still far enough away from your bogus scenario of God whispering in my ear to go and kill you that I am comforted.
When you can give me a real example, I'll deal with it. Till then, your OP's claim has been debunked.
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@Stephen
Every time you are beaten you simply run to yet another tired atheist trope.
I have better things to do. Make a thread if you want to be bested on a new topic.
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@ludofl3x
...which is God asking Abraham to kill his son
Or God asking Abraham to offer his son. Which makes sense given that God was satisfied after Abraham offered his son.
Your claim is irrational, because God went right on to forbid what you claim He was asking for. But your bias requires you to hold on to a completely illogical interpretation.
Go ahead and hold it. It isn't a crime to hold irrational beliefs.
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@n8nrgmi
It would be a lie. My God frown on lies. My counter point was that people do not always or necessarily follow their society. You ignored that point.
Here, I have a question.
If 2 men, who were NOT gay had sex, would they be in violation of the law and subject to its death penalty? Yes.
Thus the law was NOT against homosexuals, but against the homosexual ACT. A person could be homosexual all their life and never violate the law.
Your basic complaint here is that the bible doesn't follow your morality. My only response to that is, "so what?"
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@dustryder
...refused to say that he'd transfer power peacefully
This is untrue. Just like the lie that Trump "refused" to condemn white supremists, or the lie that Trump said bleach should be injected, or the lie that Trump paid no taxes, or the lie that Trump was "behind" in the 2016 election, or the lie that....
You get my drift.
The liberal left simply believes every lame claim against Trump and it's almost impossible to get them to see their irrationality.
The bottom line still is, no official election official has called the election. Biden is NOT the president elect, and Trump is still the president. Curb your bias.
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Is the Bible True? What, exactly, is your basis for believing that the Bible is True?
Amoung others, this....
Jhn 7:16 - Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
Jhn 7:17 - Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
I found out.
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@ludofl3x
I don't know where you get that Abraham believed he was going to kill Isaac.
Are there a lot of living burnt offerings?
Isaac did not die. And no matter what Abraham believed, the claim in contention is that God told a man to kill another, not that a man believed God told him to kill another. Telling me your belief about what Abraham believed does not address what God intended.
I see from the actual text that when Isaac asked about a sacrificial lamb, Abraham told him that God would provide one. That sounds to me like Abraham did not believe Isaac would be killed.
Right, this is later in the story. It sounds to me like a dad who knows if he told his son, who was significantly younger than him and presumably quicker, "Oh, we're sacrificing YOU , not a lamb!" that the son would panic and try to escape and cost him his chance to be god's obedient subject, but we can have different opinions.
This is conjecture. Abraham did not lie, and could have kept silent, or could have said "God has already provided a lamb." But he did not. Your bias is showing.
If you insist that God was asking Abraham to kill Isaac, you must tell us why did God stop Abraham from killing Isaac.
I don't see why I'd need to explain this characters' motivations if the text is indeed very plain.
You have assigned motive to God, yet the story contradicts you. If you cannot explain this discrepancy, it may be because your interpretation is in error.
And really, I don't need to explain anyhting to point out what the text says, which is in demonstrable opposition to what you said. unless you think a burnt offering is somehow an alive offering.
It's simple. Abraham was asked to offer his son. He did that. God's intent was that Abraham offer his son, not that Abraham kill his son. The story supports this in that God forbid Abraham from killing his son.
...how do you know it could have been done differently?
The character in the book is purported to be all powerful, by definition all things could have been done differently.
Untrue. God's omnipotence does not entail illogical things, or things that violate his essential nature.
And if God was "pretending", then He never intended Abraham to kill Isaac.
THat's not your claim, that god never intended to kill anyone. YOu said god never asked anyone to kill anyone else, right?
Right. And the story shows that God did not ask Abraham to kill his son, and indeed God behaved as if He did not want Isaac dead. God asked Abraham to "offer" his son. If God was asking Abraham to kill his son, why did Isaac leave the altar alive?
Again I will say, you may keep your opinion, but please don't pretend it comes from the text in question. It is coming from your bias.
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@Tradesecret
It is clear to me TS, that someone is suffering under the green eyed monster about your qualifications. As educated and accomplished you are, this must not be a rare occurrence for you.
The moron hari is still spamming repeat nonsense to himself. Great role model no?
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@Stephen
And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist;...
The "this" Herod is referring to is Jesus, whom he only THINKS is John. Reading comprehension Stephen.
..he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him."Matthew 14:2
The "he" Herod refers to here is Jesus, whom he thinks is the risen John. Reading comprehension Stephen.
So we see that no reasonable person should be asking what were the "mighty works" that John had performed for them to be now "showing forth themselves in Jesus". Herod felt that this Jesus, whom he thought was the risen John, was performing miracles because because he was resurrected. Nowhere does the text say or imply that John performed miracles. Reading comprehension Stephen.
Now you can go.
Are you sure? Because I'm taking the win with me.
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@ludofl3x
He asked for a burnt offering. Do you think the lambs they burned were alive when they burned them?
Doesn't matter. God asked Abraham to offer his son, not burn him. Basically, God was asking Abraham, are you willing to offer your only son to me? Abraham was. God sought Abraham's willingness, not Isaacs death. And when He got it, he was satisfied.
ABraham took out a knife and was ready to kill his son so he didn't have to hear him scream as he burned.
Lol. You don't know why God stopped the sacrifice but you know this? Did you get this knowledge from the text? Because I don't see it.
It's pretty clear he was going to kill ISaac, and at least according to the story, he wouldn't have thought about doing so if he didn't think God was TELLING him to.
What Abraham thought and what God wanted are different things. I don't know where you get that Abraham believed he was going to kill Isaac. I see from the actual text that when Isaac asked about a sacrificial lamb, Abraham told him that God would provide one. That sounds to me like Abraham did not believe Isaac would be killed.
All I'm pointing out is indeed God does ask for humans to kill other humans, and this one, though it turned out to be an awesome prank, was not in a time of war.
Yet when I asked you why God stopped it, you say you don't know. Then where do you get the idea that God asked Abraham to kill Isaac? A more logical and unbiased conclusion is that God did not want the death of Isaac but the willingness of Abraham. The story supports this conclusion.
The story's conclusion is immaterial to your claim that God doesn't ask anyone to kill anyone else.
If you insist that God was asking Abraham to kill Isaac, you must tell us why did God stop Abraham from killing Isaac. An "I don't know" doesn't cut it. Why did God behave exactly opposite than what you claim His intent was?
This is a pretty early example in the book: go up on that mountain and kill then burn your son.
Lucky for us, the actual story contradicts your claim.
Here is a question for you. Why did God stop the sacrifice after Abraham showed he was willing to offer his son?
No idea, since whatever idea he was trying to communicate to Abraham could have doubtlessly been do so less cruelly than pretending he was going to let him kill his only kid.
If you don't know what idea God was trying to communicate to Abraham, how do you know it could have been done differently? And if God was "pretending", then He never intended Abraham to kill Isaac. Look at your knees. Are they still there?
All I'm pointing out is what's actually in the book, in direct contradiction to another one of your ill founded claims about the book.
God asking Abraham to KILL Isaac is not in the book. "...so he didn't have to hear him scream.." is not in the book. God "pretending" is not in the book. What have you pointed out that's in the book? And what have I said that isn't in the book?
You may keep your opinion, but please don't pretend it comes from the text in question.
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@SirAnonymous
Hi Sir. I never really left. I'm tempted to make the same fight as Trump against liberal bias and dishonesty, but I just don't think membership here is worth the bother.
I hope you are well.
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@ludofl3x
Is there a way to make someone into a burnt offering without killing them? I mean I know god puled his awesome "Psyyyyyyyyche!" at the end of this story, but strictly speaking...
You are in error because you are letting your bias cloud your thinking. Abraham was asked to "offer" His son, not burn Him. Abraham did just that. He offered his son. And God, being satisfied that Abraham had fulfilled His direction, told Abraham to not to kill his son.
Read the passage with your bias turned off and you'll see 3 things...
1. God never asked for the death of Isaac
2. Abraham did not believe God wanted the death of Isaac
3. The story's conclusion supports this view
Here is a question for you. Why did God stop the sacrifice after Abraham showed he was willing to offer his son?
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@Theweakeredge
No, I am saying that the god of the bible commanded the fall of nations...
That seems a step down from your OP. My only answer to this fallback position is, "so what?"
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@Tradesecret
Every time you post to a thread, you make is so that I don't have to. : )
God is the source, sustainer, and creator of nature, in what way is He then supernatural? God is not creation, true, but that doesn't mean God is thus unnatural.
Mopic said, "...yet God became creation". This is untrue and not supported anywhere in the bible. The bible tells us that Jesus was never created, and is the same today, yesterday, and forever. All things were created by Him and for Him. Jesus existed before He appeared on Earth, and still does now.
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@RoderickSpode
I like to believe though, that those who participate on debate forums arguing against Christianity are actually seeking.
As are we all.
Hi Rod, good post.
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