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@3RU7AL
I'm not saying I go for it! But it seems to be what pga thinks.
My approach is to unpick what Daniel 9 really is. It's not an uncanny prophecy - it's a description of past and current events written in the 2nd century BC made to look like an uncanny prophecy from hundreds of year before. pga is unreceptive to that idea - but then, I don't expect him to be.
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@secularmerlin
Ok. I mean virtual in the way it used in 'virtual reality' or 'virtual image' in optics. Somethig is virtual when it is only 'seems to be', when there is no physical object corresponding to it - a virtual object is a perception only.
if i use a VR headset and see a football there is no actual football - smike and mirrors have fooled me intoperceving something that isn't there. But even though it isn't there, it is in many ways 'as if' it was there, as if it was real.
The self, then, is virtual. I'd avoid saying it's an illusion because that might suggests it is purely figmentary, but a 'virtual football' isn't purely figmenary; it is a perception brought about by the cunning use of light from LEDs and LCDs.
The operation of the brain is such that it produces a perception that we label 'self', or sometimes 'I'. Just as it wouldbe possible to be fooledby a top-range VR that a virtual football is a real obect, we are fooled that the self is a real object. But just as with a virtual football therre is nothin that is really round and made of rubber in the world, the self/I we perceive is no where in the world. It is a perception conjured up by the activity of our brain.
The upshot is that when abody is disintegrated by a transporter the self is not destroyed because there is no self. The idea we have that 'I' is something that is real, that exists is an error induced by the vividness of the perception induced. All that exists in the world is the structured activity in our brains that generates a virtual self.
When the body is reconstructed the production of a virtual self restarts, but it's not the same self nor is it a differnt self because there is no self - it is virtual!
We are all - however much we feel otherwise - the production of a configurartion of atoms. In the 23rd century people have come to terms with being virtual, that their self doesn't actually exist. Not everyone in the 21st century is convinced, however!
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@ludofl3x
But surely the argument is that as the bible contains an uncannily accurate prophecy of events more than 500 years in its future it must be divinrly inspired, therefore it can be trusted.
It's not a rigorous argument and I don't think pga claims it is. But it is 'reasonable', and 'more reasonble' than any other model. Allegedly.
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@ludofl3x
Excellent illustration. I hope it sinks in this time. Claims are not evidence of whatever they claim!
But isn't the claim that the empire state building appears in a story from 500 years ago, perfectly described, right down to the giant gorilla on top of it?
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@ludofl3x
Some interpreters of the Koran say that who goes to heaven or hell is entirely upto God and Christians are perfectly acceptable.
Surely the believers and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians – whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve. (2:63, also 5:69)
Of course other Muslim scholars dispute that, citing:
Whoever prefers a religion other than Islam, it shall definitely not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter, he shall be among the losers.
(3:85)
Christianity seems less tolerant:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
But may be there's hope even for atheists:
James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
It's all very confusing - or it would be if god existed.
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@Fallaneze
So lie down on the floor and do nothing all day and believe the outcome would've been the same.
Same as what? There is only one future. Options not taken don't exist, nor will they ever exist.
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@Greyparrot
What goes round comes round... we whites had it good for a long time.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
Logically, if you're worried about IQ you should discrimate on the basis of a person's IQ not the average of their ethnic group. You should dump anyone with low iq and keep anyone with high iq, regardless of their tribe.
Of course that might mean you lose out to
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@secularmerlin
Not quite what I was asking... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree that self is virtual - I want to know what you think I mean when I say self is virtual.
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@mustardness
Boeing have thousands of 8's on order and Airbus has a very good plane that competes with it. They gambled with people's lives to preserve their order book and share price. That's capitalism, not Trumpism.
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@Yassine
As you point out most of the victims of muslim violence are Muslims. There is an ongoing in-fighting between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia vying for dominance over the umma with both sides going as far as denying the others are Muslims.
I feel the major concern of Isamists is creeping secularism in the Muslim world, with the west a much lesser concern. Hence many radicalised Muslims go to Syria to fight other Muslims, not to blow up westerners at home.
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@3RU7AL
I agree entirely. Put crudely, we all sign upto the universe having some kind of origin. What is in doubt is whether its origin is anything like the one proposed by theists and ontological, cosmological kalam-type proofs do nothing to establish that.
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@Yassine
Your tone skirts very close to victim blaming, Yass, which doesn't reflect well on you!
It is a sad fact that there are few places in the world - if any - where a woman is safe from male predation and religion is not a factor. It would be great if women could walk in safety in Morocco - or in Birmingham, Los Angeles, Spokane, Nairobi or Peking. But they can't. The victims are 'guilty' of no more than naivity or having a misplaced trust in human nature. The perpetrators are the truly guilty.
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@Yassine
I think the degree to which 'Islamism' (for want of a better word - I am open to suggestions!) is a power struggle with Islam is under appreciated in the west.
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@Yassine
@Stephen
It's plain that this is all about tribe, not religion.
What happened pales into insignificance compared to clearly tribal-based conflicts such as the hutu/tutsi conflict of the 90s. Pastoralists and farmers in Africa have warred since time immemorial.
There are issues in nigeria that are part of the global 'islam v west' conflagration - boko haram is the obvious instance of that - but I don't think the story referred to is related to it.
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@secularmerlin
If I said the self/'I' is virtual, what would you think it means?
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@Fallaneze
Not really. The counter-argument is that lying down and letting what happens happen is what was pre-determined to occur. Whatever ever you do is what it had to be.People who argue that free will doesn't exist should just lie down on the floor and do nothing all day and trust that the outcome would've been the same had they decided not to do that. If you aren't willing to put yourself to that test, you don't really believe what you're arguing.
It's related to the 'block universe' view of time in which reality is imagined as a static 4D block. We move along the time axis of the block, experiening a slice through it which we call 'the present moment' but the block itself doesn't change.
It is also known as 'eternalism' and there are are a few different flavours, such as the 'growing block universe'.
I'm quite keen on 'presentism', but it's not very fashionable these days.
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@secularmerlin
Did you sleep last night at all? I suggest that your self - the thing that sees with your brain - is not continuous at all but has big gaps in it - 'I' stops and starts.The only thing my past, present and future self verifiably have in common is physical continuity.
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@secularmerlin
'I see the world through my brain'.
So what sees the world through your eyes is 'I'.
What is 'I'? It's not you brain, because - as that 'I' said - 'I' is what uses the brain to see.
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@secularmerlin
Then what is it that sees the world through your eyes?
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@secularmerlin
Tell me: do you believe in the existence of the soul (or maybe something like the soul)?
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@secularmerlin
i am not aware of any statement of your reasons. You wrote:
Then all your favorite star trek characters were dead right away. First episode you gotta assume they have already been disintegrated by a disintegration box and replaced with a clone by an clone making box at least a few times by then.
But what is it about that you find unacceptable? Cap'n Kirk is ok with it. Tell him why he shouldn't be!
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Let me check...is there anyone here who would not use a transporter? If not, why not?
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@Analgesic.Spectre
So as I understand it, the plan was to generate an anti-right backlash which will have the effect of galvanising the right into even more drastic action. hastening the showdown and the defeat of the anti-white forces.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
It will be out of the news in a few days anyway.
So killing 50 muslims for a headline is ok... does that cut both ways?
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@ludofl3x
It's six nations rugby. The ability to distinguish between 6 and 7 is a pre-requisite for understanding rugby so I understand why you find it difficult, you soccer-lovin' philistine.I was disappointed to see seven nations rugby on in place of premier league this weekend
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@Fallaneze
I don't think we can be sure what you will choose right upto the moment you go - or don't go - through the door in minutes time. The decision you make now is not necessarily the one you will follow in minutes time. Does your final decision exist now? i could, for eample, offer you a million dollars to change your mind at the last moment. (not that i'm likely to, but I could!)
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So strictly speaking the process is teleporting but the machine is a transporter?
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@Fallaneze
Right, but that only applies to decisions that have already been made. What about future decisions? If I'm thinking about whether to leave the house in 5 minutes has that decision already been made? Under hard determinism, yes, under free will, no.
Does a choice that belongs to the future exist in the present or past? If it does not exist yet, how can it be already made?
Cans of worms...
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@ludofl3x
She sure hit the ground running!
If you are a brit and watched Saturday's Rugby you'll believe anything is possible...
I would say a tautology is something that can be simplified (by legal re-arragement and cancellation of terms) to 'true'.
I would say 3+4=7 is a tautology because 3+4 simplifies to 7, giving
7=7 which is A=A -> true.
The step 3+4->7 is hard to justify, but probably possible. Here is part of how Whitheadandrussel proved the simpler 1+1=2.
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@secularmerlin
A rock cannot choose to ignore the pull of gravityNeither can you.
Oops, Perhaps I should have said 'resist'.
I can go up hill if I want to. A rock can neither go up hill nor want to go up hill. What is it that gives me the ability to want to go up hill? A full answer would tell me how to make a machine that has the same sort of 'wanting'.
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@Fallaneze
There is a problem that having made a choice we cannot 'rewind time' to see if we could have choosen differently.
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@secularmerlin
I find it hard to believe "So your contention here is that fervently believing in a proposition does not in and of itself effect how true this proposition is?" has more than one reasonable answer!
Sydney is not the capital of Australia no matter how much you believe it is! But may be a belief like 'I can beat this guy at pool' might have a positive effect...
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@Analgesic.Spectre
He could have made that point using a paintball gun. He wanted to kill as many Muslims as possible.Not that I condone the murders (I don't at all), but if you're able to ignore that to see the effect of his actions, what this man did is genius....What can they do when every avenue of peaceful opposition is denied?
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@PGA2.0
Islam is much closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity. My cynicised view is that the mohammedan empire created Islam from scratch as a unifying creed based on the model of Judaism. It was given some tweaks to make it distinct from Judaism, most noticeably by including Jesus as a prophet.
In my view Islam originated as a political tool, but it gained a life of its own when people started believing in it.
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@secularmerlin
If it was not me that desired milk, what is it that desired milk?
Rocks have no desires - I do. When i desire milk I can choose to satisfy that desire or to let it pass. A rock cannot choose to ignore the pull of gravity.
I am interested in the difference. Your approach seems a bit timid - it's as if you just want the 'problem of free will' to go away without having to think too much about things like the nature of self and its consequences for moral responsibility and so on.
It's all about 'What am I?'. I think that if free will is an illusion - which I think it probably is - then the self must also be an illusion. Is becoming an illusion a price I am willing to pay? Am I forced to accept I am an illusion, if so what does that actually mean? Can an illusion have an illusion of itself, or can an illusion be an illusion of itself? How does that work?
If free will is an illusion, who or what is the illusionist, and what is it an illusion of? 'Free will is an illusion' isn't an end point - it's a launch pad. but first off, what does 'free will is an illusion' mean? I repeat, who or what is the illusionist, and what is it an illusion of?
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@secularmerlin
If I believed i was going to win the lottery it would improve my chances of winning immeasurably because I'd buy a ticket - which I never do normally!
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@secularmerlin
Since an object at rest tends to stay at rest any rick moving in any way would be expected to have some explanation.T
The explanation a rock goes down a hill is that matter tends to adopt configurations with lower energy.
If I go down the incline outside my front door its usually because I want to buy some milk from the shop there.
That is a commin place observation, and in common language we'd say the difference is that I have free will and the rock doesn't.
So rather than trying to define free will I think outs more productive to think about the two cases andbring out what it is that makes people say that people gave free will but rocks don't. Only a deliberately obstrucive individual wouldsay that rocks have free will but people don't!
I don't think its enough to say that free will is an illusion without trying to clear up what it is an illusion of!
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@Analgesic.Spectre
It seems one man's terrorist is indeed another man's freedom fighter.
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Not a single peep about this butchery from the Western mainstream media.
Not even in the Daily Mail.
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@Yassine
1. A contingent thing (a thing such that if it exists it could have not-existed) exists.2. This contingent thing has a cause of its existence.3. The cause of its existence is something other than itself.4. This cause must either be a contingent or a non-contingent -necessary- thing.5. Contingent things solely are not sufficient for the existence of a contingent thing.6. This cause must include a necessary thing.7. Therefore, a Necessary thing (a thing such that if it exists cannot not-exist) exists.
Saying 'thing' rather than 'being' leads to a less impressive-seeming conclusion!
As an atheist i'm easy with the idea that there's some thing underneath it all, waiting to be discovered. But 'thing' is a lot less loaded than 'being'! There's no reason to think that the 'thing' is in anyway god-like - it's probably more like a law of nature, such the laws of thermodynamics. No need to suspect the 'thing' answers prayers or has views on women's clothing.
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Not quite. You must not know these people, or the history which therein transpired, but whatever.
I'm not an expert, but mohammed died in 632 and by 656 there was open warfare over power in the Muslim world.
Again, the West is a political entity, Islam is a religion. No room for comparison.
Yet you wrote:
Now, the West lost much of its heritage in tradition & culture & social norms, in the name of 'progress'. Of course the Islamic model is the better model,
IMO, your posts were very guilty of the 'them and us' mentality that you claimed to decry. There is no problem that is the west's and other problems that are Islam's. There are only problems that face us all and need us all working together to solve, not playing blame games.
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@secularmerlin
There is a difference between a human walking down a hill and a rock rolling down a hill.
Can we use that image for a moment?
What is the difference? Presumably we'd say the rock does not have free will, but the human does (if anything does).
A rock rolling down a hill needs no special explanation, but if it stopped, turned around and went back up the hill it would! If a person turned round and went back up the hill we'd look for the explantion within that person - 'Oh, he's forgotten something' or 'Oh, he's decided to go home instead'.
But if a rock changed direction we wouldn't look for the reason in terms of the rock's internal state - we'd look for causes external to the rock. So in normal usage 'free will' must have somthing to do with having internal states with causal power, ie it is not only external causes that have to be taken into account.
That is, I suggest, the difference SM refered to but did not identify.
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@Yassine
Almost immediately after the death of mohammed, long before significant contact with the west, Islam split and Muslim was killing Muslim.
Why? Because there was a power struggle amongst the elite. Because their leaders coveted power, ordinary Arabs found themselves killing and being killed by each other. There's no difference between the west and Islam - we are all the same species with the same fundamental nature.
There has never been a war over religion. There are only wars for power and control with the sides having different religions.
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@Yassine
The West has always had this weird mode of thinking of right & wrong, "I'm right you're wrong"
I would point out that historically western elites treated their own masses no better than their colonial conquests.
The rich and powerful in all societies have much more in common with each other than they do with their own masses.
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saith PGA!I don't believe you can demonstrate I am here because of chance happenstance
I'd pick up the gauntless myself, but right now I want to watch a movie.
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@Stephen
For those that manage to get to Paradise, then what? What happens then?
6:00AM-9:00 - praise God
9:00-9:45 - breakfast (ambrosia)
9:45-12:00 - praise God
12:00-13:00 - lunch (manna, more bloody ambrosia)
13:00-15:00 - watching sinners burn in hell. Other distractions are available by arrangement.
15:00-18:00 - harp and trumpet practice (compulsory)
18:00-21:00 - praise God.
21:00-22:00 - supper (guess what - it's ambrosia)
22:00-24:00 - answering spiritualist mediums (optional, can watch sinners burn in hell instead)
24:00 - bed.
Repeat for the next 1000000000000000 million years. it's not great, but better than the alternative...
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@Yassine
The western colonial narrative that has been dominant the past century is dissipating ; "we are the good guys" "you are the bad guys",
Take care, Yass, that you aren't just swapping the labels over.
they need to pre-occupy themselves with their own affairs & problems & leave the others to their own, they need to learn how to cooperate not dictate.
Don't you see that simultaneously asking for 'pre-occupation with their own affairs' asking for co-operation is contradictory? Do you want fences between peoples or bridges?
The problem is not with the west nor with islam. It's with human bloody nature!
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