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@ludofl3x
"I do not have any reason to believe any god or gods have ever existed or exist today"
Hmph. You're still attacking theism, not establishing atheism. I would suggest "the atheistic worldview is consistent with observation". That is why I am an atheist.
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Well, really we're tied on that! You don't really have an explanation of how consciousness works either - 'the finger of God' isn't an actual explanation! It seems infair to demand more detail from me than you provide.Make sense of how consciousness come from inorganic matter and give me examples of this happening from inorganic matter or are you just presuming it happens?
That said, the origin of consciousness and of life are hard questions and I'm honest enough to say we hardly know anything about them for sure. But I hope that you'll concede that 'miracle' or 'divine act' leaves out some of fine detail of the process!
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@ludofl3x
Nah. Proper atheists claim God/gods don't exist. That 'the supernatural has not met the burden of proof' is not grounds for atheism because it asserts theism is unproved, not that atheism is proved. Ergo, it's an agnostic claim, not an atheist one.What core beliefs does atheism claim besides "the claim of anything supernatural has not met the burden of proof"?
As an atheist, I claim 'God does not exist, period'. Anything less is shilly-shallying.
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@PGA2.0
1. What am I, [ontology]2. Why am I here, [philosophical]3. , [metaphysics]4. How do I know, [epistemology]5. What difference does it make [axiology]6. What happens to me when I die [destiny].
1 - What am I,
Over billions of years organisms evolved brains because they help organisms with them to find the neccessities of life. Brains work by generating an internal model of the world - ie we are not conscious of the world per se, but of an 'internal model'. The most important element of that model is the organism itself, for obvious reasons! 'I', therefore, is how the biological machine that is my physical form is represented within the brains larger model of its environment.
3 -Where do I come from
I come from a long line of biological machines, with each link in the line being almost but not quite the same as its neighbour.
2 -Why am I here
I am here because the laws of physics are such that matter can self-organise in apparent (only apparent!) violation of the laws of thermodynamics. 3.5 billion years ago matter fell into an arrangement such that replication was energetically favoured.
4 - how do i know?
How do I know 1-3 or how do i know in general? I don't know the details of 1-3. Perhaps I don't know... i only believe. How I 'know' anything is that I see how new information fits in with my existing beliefs.
5 - What difference does it make
Don't get the question - it's a bit vague...
6 - What happens to me when I die
the biological machine that is my physical manifesttuon will break down and decompose. My brain will stop working, and as 'I' am something that is generatded by the brain's operation 'I' will ceaseto be, as the electricity generted by a dynamo ceases when it stops spinning. butunlike a dynamo the brain cannot start gain - think of it as a smashed dynamo!
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@Mopac
Very probably! i'm not heartless, but I don't think your faith is going to cause you any real problems - not in the US. i think religion can be good for people - I just think it's a placebo. I'm not a 'religion is evil' sort of atheist.
if i die and go to hell i'll make sure people know you did your best! :)
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@Mopac
Implying I don't? I have come to a different conclusion what 'the truth' is than you have, that's all.
I have never (to my knowledge) impugned your sincerity - I think you are sincere but mistaken. I am not sure you have always extended me that courtesy.
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@3RU7AL
If she does lose her citizenship it will because she sided with an enemy, not because she is muslim.So do you believe it's purely coincidental that non-christians are more likely to have their citizenship stripped from them?
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@Mopac
Ok then, believe what you want to believe.
I cannot choose what to believe - I believe what I believe is the truth, you know that thing you claim to worship?
You, I believe chose the orthodox church - you did choose your truth.
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@Mopac
It is my hope that you abandon this foolish identity, because not o ly are you not really an atheist, but it is a shame to be an atheist.
Don't be silly! What I believe in is no sort of god! You can't pray to it any more than you can pray to gravity; it doesn't have any mind, no more than magnetism has mind. It has no plan, no more than a proton has a plan. It will not reward me for obeying rules, nor will it punish me for so-called sins. I am a complicated chemical process in a bag made of skin and when i die i will rot, nothing more.
Yet you say I am not an atheist because I think there is (probably) a physico-mathematical principle - not yet discovered - that will explain the presence and nature of matter and it's interactions! You make it very hard to be an atheist!
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@oromagi
People in the less affected regions won't welcome new comers! i don't expect migration - I expect resource wars, genocide and mass deaths from famine and drought.Expect migrations of nations of people that dwarf all previous migrations.
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@3RU7AL
I don't get the impression that opposition or support for Begum is divided along religious lines. The argument is over nationality and citizenship, not religion.
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@ludofl3x
I'm guessing this is US-centric - religion (particularly 'conservative' Christianity) isn't as big a deal in the UK.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
He likes it when you don't eat for him
The universe is a billion light years froms side to side, it has a trillion galaxies each with a billion stars. Super novae explode,galaxies collide and solar sytems are swallowed up by black holes... but all he really cares about is someone putting sugar on their pancake in Arnold, Nebraska. He hates that.
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@Mopac
It seems that to be an atheist by your reckoning one would have think that there was no 'reality' at all. I'd say that was a very high bar to set for 'atheism'! I'm fairly sure even Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens would be God-believers by your standards!
I will ask you to create in you mind a category for people who believe in a real universe but not in a god-like God - and then put me (and other self-identifying atheists)in it.
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@Vader
@Goldtop
@Deb-8-a-bull
@IlDiavolo
The actual set up was to ask two separate groups.
It turned out the group asked A overwhemingly chose 1, most of the group asked B chose 4.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
You didn't say if it was a good game....!
63% - I think that means you're 100% humanist, except for 1.5 of your legs.
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It's hardly rigorous but unsurprisingly (to me anyway) I am, apparently, 100% humanist.
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@Mopac
You are right. It is not a god. There is a difference between "god" with a lower case "g", and "God" with a capital "G".
You are saying God is not a god! What is a god, and why isn't God one?
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@Mopac
No, I am saying the ultimate reality is not a god.So when you say there is no God, you are saying there is no ultimate reality.
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@Swagnarok
I am unware of anyone making those remarks here.
However Ms Stavrakopoulou's qualifications are a rather more than "two years at a community college and one or two Bible classes". What's your point?
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@Mopac
You are taught that being persecuted is a mark of one's faith.I find it ridiculous the idea that anybody would want to be persecuted.
There are several verses, eg
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!
A theologian on the subject:
(at 7m30s)
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@Vader
This pdf is about how the different wording can affect the choices people make.
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@Mopac
There can be no doubt about God's existence. If there is doubt at all, you don't get it.
What you don't get - or possibly don't admit getting - is that what has to exist isn't necessarily a god.
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@Vader
Treatment 1- What happens to the 400 people not cured?
From the OP:
"Suppose there are 600 people with fatal disease A."
So 'they die'.
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@Mopac
I am here because I love you all, and if this wasn't the case, I would not subject myself to this exercise in masochism.
You might. Christians like to be 'persecuted'. You are playing at being a martyr in very small and safe way.
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@Mopac
You have a conception of God that has thoughts and emotions. As I said, God is The Ultimate Reality. Whatever that is, that is God. It surely isn't like anything you can think of.
If you believe in a god that has no thoughts or emotions then its not me believing in God it's you not believing in God.
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I'm glad you aren't insulting me or I'd take exception to being called blind and prideful!
I don't think you are blind or prideful... just wrong!
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@Mopac
Well if you're allowed to use words in your own way anything is possible - except proper comunication.
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@Mopac
Because you are theologically ignorant.And don't take that as an insult. It is the truth, but it is understandable because you don't feel you have any good reason to take it seriously.So really, you don't know what a god is, and you don't know what God is.
I will concede I wouldn't get a DD from a seminary! But I do know what I have in mind when I think of the 'ultimate reality' I believe in! and it doen't have the qualities of a god. If what I believe in is a god then there are no atheists.
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@Mopac
You must have a very flexible notion of what a god is!
I can't get why you can't see that what I believe in is not even a god, certainly not 'God'!
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@Mopac
You're certain?
Prov 16:18: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
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@Mopac
You don't know the God we believe in, you just think you do. That is why you don't understand me. You think you know better.
Does your god so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life?
The ultimate reality I believe in does none of that stuff. It can't love, have a son or give eternal life. It doesn't hear or answer prayer. But it does underpin the material universe.
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@Mopac
It is the one uncreated and supreme existence that precedes all other existences, which are contained within and contingent on this one existence. It is eternal, necessary, and unlike anything else. It is very much incomparable, there is no equal or opposite to it. It is singular. Complete. It requires nothing to exist, nothing to sustain it. It is perfect and totally complete. It is eternal, timeless. It does not change, it was not created, it had no beginning. It has no end. It is always here, the way it is. It is never not what it is.
It can be all those things yet not resemble the God of Christianity. Indeed, I do believe in something like your 'ultimate reality' - but I don't see it as god-like.
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@PGA2.0
I take it you read the rest of my post? But perhaps we should stick to the OP. - religion has quite enough contention without bringing politics in!Not only fascism but where socialism tends to lead
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@Mopac
Then there must be an awful lot of blind people around.
Are you sure it's not you that is blind?
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@3RU7AL
Perhaps its human nature... or simply it's just that dictators are more 'driven' than regular folk.
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@3RU7AL
It seems to me that pga is criticising fascism.
Mussolini wrote: "Fascist conception is for the State; and it is for the individual in so far as he coincides with the State" and
"Fascism [is] the precise negation of that doctrine which formed the basis of the so-called Scientific or Marxian Socialism"
I think it is arguable that historically nominally 'socialist' regimes have degenerated into facism - as George Orwell brilliantly parodied in Animal Farm. That it is prone to mutating into facism may be the fatal flaw of socialism, but socialists are not facists. Indeed true socialists are soon suppressed as when power passes into the hands of dictators who pay lip-service to the letter of socialism while having disdain for its spirit.
But this is not the right forum for this debate!
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Evidenceae? Evidenci?Also, 'evidences' is not the correct plural form of evidence.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes - the phrase 'ToE' has fallen out of fashion - i'm not quite sure why.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
For me - and maybe for you too - the 'ultimate truth/reality', the 'generator and sustainer' is what is sometimes called 'the theory of everything'.
Obviously we don't know what the ToE is, but we can be sure it's not a god. Mopac thinks otherwise - he's sure the 'ultimate reality/sustainer/generator etc' is a god - moreover it's the Orthodox Christian God.
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@Mopac
@disgusted
I've noticed people only ask for proof when they know full well there isn't and can't be any.
To which someone may well reply 'Prove it!'.
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@EtrnlVw
Your tone suggests you might have missed this post.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Note said 'generates' not 'generated'.
God as the sustainer of reality is fairly mainstream - it even has a wikipedia entry.
Think of the universe as just an idea in the mind of God.
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@EtrnlVw
@Tejretics
@mustardness
I started thi thread because tejretic asked about care ethics.
A 'care ethicist' would prioritise assisting the victim; 'tradtional' ethics might prioritise 'justice' and prioritise catching the criminal.
Some people see 'care ethics' as more natural to/for women, which is why feminism enters into debates about care ethics.
The correct answer is c.
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@Greyparrot
What about after you've looked at the evidence?It's actually a valid answer to say you do not know so you can look at the evidence you can look at.
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@Mopac
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another"
I find it really hard to untangle the way that passage ends. I think it is saying that everyone - ie jew and gentile - will be judged againt the same standard. it clearer with more context.
Romans 2
"11 For God does not show favoritism.12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
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@EtrnlVw
So you're above average?The average person might not be aware of how dynamic creation is and why things exist as they are.
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@Tradesecret
Yet James' description is not the same as the modern view of religion
I think you are right that 'religion' has become a matter of tribal identity rather than of spiritual belief.
Stephen - who I dislike intensely - posted this video which shows that very clearly:
Those guys were not motivated by muslim theology but by group identity.
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