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@Mopac
when the bible was composed there was no such thing as science! I think its obvious the bible was written to be taken as true - that is certainly more likely than it being written to be taken as false!The bible is not a scientific manual.
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@Mopac
I believe 'double predestination' refers to both the saved and the damned being predestined. I deliberately quoted Augustine refering to both.
What does non-double predestination refer to?
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@Mopac
I'd have to be a believer to be a calvinist! however I do understand the Calvinist stance. I have no view on how god works, but I can take aview on what it was that Augustine taught.
In the passage you quoted:
the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace.
I think Augustine believed in predestination. I wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't brought him up saying he didn't!
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@Alec
mid term abortions would require the mother to be counselled by a trained neutral advsor, but the final choice is hers.
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@Mopac
Oddly enough, the church father these people cite the most, Saint Augustine.. I don't get the impression he believed in double predestination.
There are passages such as "...the condemnation of those whom in His justice he has predestined to punishment." (Enchiridion c, p. 269)
and "one is predestined to reign eternally with God, and the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil." (he City of God xv:1, p. 284).
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@Mopac
If it's all the same to you, I will interpret it as the Gospels say it should be interpreted:That isn't the meaning of that parable.
.. the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt 13:38-39)
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@Polytheist-Witch
That's excellent advice. Tripping solo is not a wise move.
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@Alec
My point is that there is not much point ignoring real-world factors. I don't think a total ban on abortion is a serious option; nor is abortion on demand right upto the point of birth.
As I indicated, I favour a mixed policy - not one at either extreme.
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@Mopac
You say Jesus didn't teach predestination, but the parable you chose implies it and his description confirms it.
I agree that predestination is incompatible with the dogma of most Christian denominations - but that requires disregard of the message of that parable which is that some of us were put on earth by Satan and we will return to him when we die.
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@Mopac
I think people do get that. What we don't get is why you insist the Ultimate Reality has an uncanny resemblance to the Abrahamic God.The Ultimate Reality is not contingent on anything. It is The Uncreated.
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@PGA2.0
I take a pragmatic view - there will aways be cases where a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. Where they are illegal, a black market will spring up.
My intuition is that early abortions are not really problematic but late abortions are highly problematic from a moral point of view! I am very uncomfortable with very late abortions and I would support making it mandatory to bring a foetus to term beyond some point, say 32 or 28 weeks (I'm not an ebryologist to be precise about it!). That is not incompatible with my support of abortion on demand for early abortion!
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@PGA2.0
...no morally better than the Nazis in their devaluation and dehumanization of human life. The reason I say this is because they [nazis], like the pro-life crowd, do not treat all human beings as intrinsically equal but discriminate,
I think you meant pro-choice crowd, not pro-life crowd?
The question is whether a foetus is 'intrinsically equal' to a human being. I don't think there is one answer to that - it depends on what 'equality' means. When we say 'all men are created equal' we don't mean all men are physically identical; in that context 'equal' was probably meant to mean all men should have the same social and political rights.
Whether a foetus has an equal right to life as as a human after their birth is not a matter of fact but a matter of human choice.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I think the only real Americans started hating the rest of the world in 1492 - with every justification!The world has hated America since 1492. Suck when your trash heap tells you to piss off.
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@Reece
By 'legal' do you mean individuals picking some wild mushrooms or multi-national companies growning huge fields of mushrooms in commercial quantities together with professional marketing and distribution networks?
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@Mopac
.. the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt 13:38-39)
What is the difference between the Calvinist interpretation of the parable and Jesus' explanation of it?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
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@Stronn
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@Stronn
I know there aren't any proper issues to discuss on the forum these days - but there's no point engaging with loons.
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@rosends
Good example! I'd say it implies an ancient belief that death was a 'nothing' sort of state - one did not suffer in a hell nor was one blissful in a heaven; it was believed to be like being a permanent coma.Just putting 1 Sam 28 out there -- indication that there is a soul that is still around, resting, after death.
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Internet debate:
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@sadolite
Fiat money has no intrinsic value by definition!
The only issue is whether gold and silver is much better.
IMO it depends on how much civilisation remains after the collapse.
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@disgusted
Name the sons of the apostles.
Easy.
Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Dopey, Bashful, Sneezy, and Doc.
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@linate
Its complicted, so this is way over simplified. If you imagine a moonlet orbiting above ('north of') the plane of the rings there is more 'stuff' pullling it 'south' towards the rings than there is stuff pulling it pole-wards 'north' away from the rings. Thus a spinning shell slowly flattens out perpendicular to the axis of rotation... the same effect put all the planets in the 'ecliptic' plane around the sun by flattening the spinning nebula of gas and dust that the solar system formed from.
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@Mopac
Rest assured that if ever I decide to become a Christian I will give orthodoxy serious consideration... but don't hold your breath.
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Most references to death in the OT suggest it man's final state:
2 Sam 14:14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die.
Job 7:7-9 Remember that my life is a breath My eye will not again see good…A cloud dissolves and it is gone;
So is one who descends to Sheol. He will not ascend.
However YHWH can restore life if he chooses to: Deut 32:39 "I kill, and I make alive;". Elijh revives a dead child (1 kings 17:17-24) and Eisha does the same (2 kings 4:18-37). But those are revivifications, not indictions that immortal souls are judged and go to heaven or hell. It is worth noting other Middle eastern gods had the power of revivifiction:
And all quarters extolled [his] greatness:.
Who but Marduk restores his dead to life?
Apart from Ṣarpanitum which goddess grants life?
Marduk can restore to life from the grave,
Ṣarpanitum knows how to save from destruction, (trans. by W.G. Lambert, Babylonian Wisdom Literature 1960)
The writer of Ecclesistes has this to say of death: "19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return."
The psalmist writes: "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Ps 115:17) and "For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." (Ps 38:18).
We get the first hint of judgement of the dead in Daniel (2nd century BCE)
And many of those who sleep in the dusty earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, others to everlasting reproach and contempt. Then the knowledgeable shall shine like the brightness of the sky; those who justified the many, like the stars, forever and ever. Dan 12:2-3.
Matthew tells resurrection was not accepted by Jewish Sadducces upto Jesus time. "On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him," (Matt 22:23)
Given the weight of evidence that judaism rejected ressurrection, an ambiguous passage such as isaiah 26:19 cannot be taken as proof that a belief in Christianity-like afterlife is ancient. It almost certainly arose in Judea no later than a century or two BC.
"Your dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise – awake and sing you who dwell in the earth! – for your dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades." (Isaiah 26:19)
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@Mopac
Though it is not wrong to refer to a presbyter as a priest.
No problem - as long as it's clear which sense of 'priest' is intended each time.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original church, no heir necessary.
It seems to outsiders that every denomination claims to be the only legitimate church! As I said before, I don't have a stake in that.
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@Mopac
surely the people is grass....The grass withereth.
The OT prophets did not believe in everlasting life - hence Isaiah reminds us we will wither like grass.
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@Mopac
@disgusted
You have to make allowances - 'Priest' is ambiguous in Orthodoxy. It can mean 'any member of the orthodox church' or it can mean 'a trained and ordained cleric', which is what most of us mean by 'priest'. What we call a priest they call presbyter... I think!
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@disgusted
Just some background:
The terminology stems from Exodus 19:6 where YHWH tells Moses:
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."
Thus under the 'old covenant' the 'holy nation of Priests' were the Hebrews/Jews. The new covenant involved the transfer of the covenantal relationship away from the jewish people onto Christian Church. Thus the Christian Church inherited the mantle of 'holy nation of priests' from the Jews. That raises the question of which current branch of Christianity is the legitimate heir of the original church.
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@Mopac
I can't disgree wth that! But will 'I' (or 'you') still be there?As for an afterlife.. after you die, the world will still be there. The Truth is eternal.
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@3RU7AL
Hollywood is missing a trick! :)
Kenneth Williams is a natural for the part... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UklIMCtUxTU
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@Mopac
One of us is confused.
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If I disregrarded it I wouldn't be engaging with you.
My only beef is your silly contention that disbelieving in God (capital G) entails not believing in reality. I might be prepated to accept that speaking looseley and figuratively reality and 'Truth' can be 'a god' (small g), but you seem to be claiming more than that - ie that reality and truth are identical to the God of [orthodox] Christianity. That may be an item of faith (as it is for you) but it is not an inevitable logical consequence.
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@3RU7AL
Well unless "Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata" is a sequel to '50 shades' don't think I'll bother reading it. I'll wait for the movie, as I do for "logico tractatus philosophicus" starring Ben Afleck.
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@Mopac
I don't have any problem with the word 'god', except that it's nor easy to distinguish between 'God' and 'god'.
Let me try to explain why your approach isn't working despite dozens of repetitions of the mantras 'God is the Ultmate Reality' and 'God is The Truth'.
It's very like a sun worshipper who keeps saying "The Sun is God, God is the Sun; you cannot deny the Sun exists, yet you deny God exists."
I think you would not accept the sun worshipper's argument! But your argument is no different.
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@Mopac
Wiith no difficuty whatsover.
'There is Ultimate Reality' - but it doesn't resemble God or any god. There's no use praying to it nor expecting it to look after your non-existant soul.
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@Mopac
The 'tares' parable tells how one is born good or evil and will go to heaven or hell accordingly. Because tares do not become wheat, the only way to heaven is to hope one was not born a tare, (planted by Satan, presumably) because you'd be screwed.
There is no judgement - your fate was sealed before you were born.
At least that is what Calvinists say. i don't know if Hobbsians agree.
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@disgusted
Your god is ultimately and exclusively answerable to humans, after all, humans created him.
I don't see how a non-existing god can be answerable. That would be like blaming Sherlock Holmes for not catching Jack the Ripper.
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@3RU7AL
I had to check out the vid to see how PGA could think CS Lewis was a materialistic atheist! Having watched it, I am even more at a loss to see how PGA could think CS Lewis was a materialistic atheist. I think he must have watched the wrong video.
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@Ramshutu
lions are yellow because the live in a yellow desert
Little known fatoid: Yellow was the 19th colour the designer tried out. All the previous differntly coloured lions starved to death.
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@Mopac
you think sacrifices are for placating God. Maybe so with the pagans, but not the case for Israel.
It's all very well saying that the Israelites are different from pagans, but you don't tell us why the Israelites' reasons for sacrifices were any different.
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@Tradesecret
If a god creates a universe, is he justified if he subsequently destroys it?I think God could kill every human being and be justified.
I haven't the faintest idea, but it's rather academic as the universe was not created by a god. I'd say if god was real then he could do what ever he likes - it's not as if gods have bosses to answer to.
Atheists sometimes come over as arguing that god exists but is a genocidal maniac, but that isn't what we atheists believe! The god YHWH depicted in he bible is not 'nice'. The ancients did not think of gods as being 'nice' - they were powerful and capricious rulers and had to be constanty placated with flattery and sacrifices. Step 1 is to see that much; step 2 is to see that gods are the imaginings of our superstitious past.
No-one is seriously proposing that YHWH is really a genocidal maniac. if he existed as desribed in the text he would be a maniac, but god does not exist in the first place.
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@sadolite
It's still interesting to ponder why gold and silver are considered valuable and what sets the level of its value.
if you have a bar of gold it is of very little actual use to you - its only 'use' is that somebody else also thinks its valuable. If nobody wants your bar of gold you might as well throw it away.
Gold does have some minor industrial uses but I don't that explains why it is so highly valued.
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@IlDiavolo
I would argue that you would agree to dig the hole in exchange for a brand new motorcycle. The guy who wants the hole dug doesn't have a motorcycle so you ask him to give you for something you can exchange from a motorcycle from someone else. We can assume people with motorcycles agree that motorcycles are a fair exchange for digging 6x6 hole.
So how many dollars (or how much gold) do you ask for? It could be any amount - that is to say the amount will be whatever people agree on as the 'common denominator'. It would work if holes and motorcycles were both priced at $1 or $100, or 1 oz of gold or 1 pound of gold. All that matters is people agree - there is nothing intrinsic making a hole or a motorcycle worth 10 or 100 'units' whether the unit is dollars or gold.
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@Mopac
I'm fairly sure the bible was written before there was any such thing as 'Church tradition'.The bible is meant to be read in the context of Church Tradition, not in the context of the pagan society or the heresy of gnosticism.
I think it was meant to be read as unvarnished truth - much as a sizeable fraction of Americans believes even today. Surely it was easier to accept it as simple reportage 2 or 3 thousand years ago.
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@Mopac
There is no "Hinduism", it is a label made up by the British to describe the myriad of beliefs found in India.
There's plenty of difference between what different 'Christians' believe. On that basis perhaps there's no such thing as Christianity either.
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@sadolite
Gold and silver on the other hand, a totally different story. It never loses value.
Why not? People might wake up tomorrow realising that gold was nice and shiny, but not actually much use or valuable. if it was useful people wouldn't lock it away in vaults where it's not used. Gold has some industrial uses, but it's not vital.
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@Mopac
I know what my faith is. You do not.
I've read nearly all your almost 3,000 posts - I think I know what your faith is.
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