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@Castin
The winter solstice used to be a bigger deal than it is today. Ditto for the summer solstice. We seem to be losing that time when we had a bit more of a connection with nature. We don't stop and take time to just feel the pulse of the Earth anymore.
We invented central heating and electric light.
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It's still not clear what 'religion of peace' means. If we clear that up it will be easier to say if Islam is one or not.
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@Plisken
Interesting but the idea has been around lot longer. I wonder what terms were used before?
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@Polytheist-Witch
There are 'many' evangelical Christians, Poly.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well, many theists are creationist! It depends on what you take 'many' to mean.
I think that many of the theists who reject evolution do so because they see 'evolution' and 'soul' as incompatible.
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@disgusted
I think you have highighted one reason many theists reject evolution.
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@Stephen
i don't think she's giving it top priority.
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However little of the universe is suitable for life, some of it is. Maybe it didn't have to be. Perhaps there doesn't have to be a universe at all, but I find it really hard to get my head around there being nothing at all, ie not even a void but nothing.The universe is so fine tuned that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of it is fatal to humans.
But I see fine-tuning less an argument for god as an open question as to how the values of the physical constants got set. We won't know that for a long time.
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@Stephen
Ah, I see this is the religion forum, not science! I don't think I want to say much about the theology of sex.
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when one speaks of "reproduction" or the "act of", one automatically thinks intercourse and or copulation
I must have gotten old because I didn't automtically think about intercourse and copulation... once upon a time I thought of little else!
I think sexual reproduction must really speed up evolution. An asexual species could only evolve by a long series of one-at-time-mutations, but a sexual species can harbour many mutations in different individuals which get 'mix-and-matched'. Its the difference between 'serial' and 'parallel'.
That said, it's not settled why sex exists.
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@Stephen
I believe it to be a fact.
Natural selection is the principle that offspring show variation and it is the 'fitter' offspring that are 'naturally selected' to survive and go on to have offspring themselves. Unless reproduction is occurring there are no offspring for natural selection to operate on.
(Natural selection is contrasted with artificial selection which is the practice of human plant and animal breeders to select which individuals to breed from. In natural selection it is nature, not man, that does the selecting.)
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So, in your opinion, it has nothing to do with Islam.
Is it your opinion it is only Islam?
In my view religions have no intrinsic qualities - all of them can be used to open soup kitchens or justify massacres.
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@Castin
I'd agree with that.
The other thing I think we atheists don't like to admit as problematical is the sheer complexity of even the simplest living thing, or of a single cell.
Darwinism is great, but natural selection can't kick in until you have already established reproduction. The way DNA is translated into proteins isn't a simple chemical reaction but an intricate 'mechanical' process with moving parts such as ribosomes that 'click along' DNA strand 3 bases at a time...
Of course I don't think any god's were involved, but if you think it's absurd you probably don't know much about the internals of cells!
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@Castin
It's remarkably reminscent of Neitzsche. According to wiki, 'Might is Right' is 1890 and 'Genealogy of Morals' is 1887. It could be co-incidence, but i think it very likely Redbeard was recycling Neitzsche.
The common theme is that Christianity is a weakling's philosophy, not a heroic one. You may disagree when you finish your light bed-time reading - I hope you do!
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@Stephen
So would you say that "Racist UK Government to Ban Eating Dog Meat" is a fair summary of the situation? It's not a tad is misleading.as there are no plans for any change to the law, merely some wingeing by a few dog lovers?
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@disgusted
Islam is not passive, pacifist religion in the way Christianity is. Christian teaching is to accept - even welcome - persecution because it was assumed new world order was imminent.
Islam does not teach 'turn the other cheek' - Muslims should fight in defence of their faith. It is clear that is open to a wide range of interpretations!
Radical Islamists - and Stephen - prefer to interpret it as mandating unlimited war against the infidel, but Muslims and Muslim scholars are not in unanimous agreement with that! Some of the complexity of the issue can be gleaned from the wikipedia article on jihad.
I haven't spent months researching this - but I can tell I need to and what Grugore, Stephen et al offer up is superficial and - one suspects - agenda-driven.
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@Stephen
Tell me, what is it makes these ISLAMIC extremist carry out these atrocities such as the beheadings of two Scandinavian girls very recently?
ISIS/islamist propaganda?
Tell me, what is it makes most muslims not carry out any atrocities such as the beheadings of two Scandinavian girls very recently? I don't suppose the killers were arrested by the Morroccan cops to collect a medal from the president.
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@Stephen
So you see, when I mentioned " a religious thing" I clearly and separately was talking about Halal being a "religious thing" AND NOT THE EATING OF DOG as you are trying to make out I said.
What does 'it' refer to? you wrote a pargraph about eating dogs without a mention of halal!
In anothet post we read
"What about Asians who are about to have their right to eat dog criminalised."
Thre is no change in the law going on. The law was, is and remains that eating dog per se is not criminal but the buying and selling of dogmeat is.
Your sole objective was to show the govt caving into mulisms. i'm sure there are genuine cases of appeasement out there, but you picked a dud.
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@Stephen
kp: Contrary to what you stated, eating dog meat is not a religious issue,Steve: I didn't say it was, at all, anywhere on this thread.
Yet in the op I see:
“We also believe legislation against dog meat in UK would provide us with strength to continue our work in Asia, as the UK could influence other countries to stop dog meat consumption.It's a "religion" thing
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@Stephen
What is wrong with Islam? What is so, so wrong with the "religion of peace" that you don't want it to take over Britain?
I am opposed to theocracy. I don't think a Christian theocracy would be any better than an Islamic one. What islam shows us is what happens when religion - any religion - breaches the division between church and state. You get social, artistic and scientific stagnation; logic and reason play a secondry role to doctrine and dogma. You can't even get a decent drink!
For all that and more which it would be superfluous to catalog theocracy has to be opposed. I do not believe in appeasing extremists but neither do i believe in riding rough shod over people's religious sensitivities. Britain is a small crowded island. We won't learn to share it by spreading inte-community distrust.
Of course some people don't want to share. But Britain aways been a melting pot - long my it remain so.
Before you ask, No, not all the wrong is not on our side but on DA I a can only addressing 'our side'.
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@Stephen
I didn't accuse you of anything - unless sending me a PM is an accusable offence!
I thought it best to tell you - and the world at large - that I 'Don't do PMs'.
On the other hand you definitely called my honesty into question about deleting PMs. But you have been consistently 'economical with the truth' in this thread. Contrary to what you stated, eating dog meat is not a religious issue, Halal is not outlawed and the Lancashire council did not capitulate to pressure from Muslims.
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@Stephen
I said you were either lying or mistaken.
actually you said
kp: i deleted them somehow!MY ARSE!
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@Stephen
Why would I try to defend it? All I want to do is avoid turning the UK into Saudi Arabia, the Balkans or Rwanda.You have no defence or excuses for this violent barbaric ideology ,
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@bsh1
Stubborn, hard-headed and denies everything.More like honest, firm, and direct.
You certainly herd cats better than most!
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@3RU7AL
Undeleted but struck-through posts would also serve as examples of what is unacceptable. That would be my choice. Obviously offending posts may have to be doctored to mangle anything that can't be public, but deletion just creates mystery and conspiracy theories.Without some explicit indicator or flag or label or note or strike-through, the bad behavior could easily appear to be accepted practice.
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@Castin
But the forums are the only place where people, y'know... talk.
The comments on a debate are de facto forum threads.
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You're not wrong. But a shorter format is coming anyway,
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@Fallaneze
"People know deep down what is right and what is wrong. You know the truth. You just need the courage to face the facts."Moral realism is calling.
I think 3ru is saying we should trust our intuitions, not what we can (or think we can) prove. Applied to morality that mean we shouldn't doubt that murder or rape are bad (if that is how we feel), even if we can't write a formal proof of it.
3ru will correct me if i got the wrong end of the stick!
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@Mopac
I'd just change that ever so slightly:The Truth certainly makes a better God than these vain imaginings and false gods.
"The truth certainly makes a better god than these vain imaginings and false gods."
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@Logical-Master
I think it's worth reminding people that the world doesn't know or care about DA. The biggest fish in DArt isn't even a minnow in the real world.
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@Stephen
I have no idea when it was implemented-i never had a message before. But you could be gracious and retract calling me a liar.
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There have been Afghani RAPE gangs. Somali RAPE gangs, Iraqi RAPE gangs and there have been what YOU call "PAKI" rape gangs in the UK alone . You see Keith,? All different races with one thing in common: ISLAM.Get real just for once in your apologetic life.
I will - at some point - get annoyed that you think I am in the business of defending Islam. But if Islam is the reason for rape gangs then why aren't all Muslisms rapists and b)why do non-muslim rape gangs exist?
I don't ask those questions to deflect blame but because the answers matter if we care more about kids getting raped than in demonising Muslims.
I really, really don't want to see Britain Islamicised. But right now i don't think that is what we should be worried about. I'm more worried that ethnic divisions will worsen to a point little short of civil war. Imagine Northern Ireland of the '70s in every British city.
i think it is good to discuss Islam but an awful lot of so called 'discussion' is presenting islam purely as the religion of a bunch of murderers and rapists. If I want to that sort of stuff I can read the Daily Mail.
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@MagicAintReal
'Possible' is an awkard word! It's possible I will win the Men's singles at Wimbledon next year - but is it a possibility worth considering?
I don't know when it's ok to say 'impossible' instead of 'very improbable'. After the Headingly test match in 1981 (500 to 1) and Leicester winning the Premiership (5000 to 1) I wonder of anything is 'impossible'.
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@Nd24007
What is your method for telling what is and what is not 'fake'?
i assume everyone is biased.
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@Stephen
my in-box is currently empty. if you send me a test message I would be happy to see if I dreamt the delete button!
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I don't think a groomer rapes a young girl unwillingly but forces himself out of a sense of duty to Allah. Cat Stevens' hasn't hijacked any airliners.
'Islam' is too broad to be called 'the problem'.
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@Stephen
I think you better check with the developers that a delete facility hasn't been implemented recenty.
All I remember is think 'oh, they're from that person.' and deleting them.
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There were two messages in my box and i deleted them somehow!
As you say you didn't send them, I only really recall they were from a member it was in a spat with at the time (ie a couple of days go). I don't have many spats on but it could well be my other current bete noir, the dreaded ArseGlarse herself.
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I don't see the pitfall at all. Racists exist. 'Muslims' are - to them - just another bunch of foreigners along with blacks and pakis. On the other hand Islam is an abstract religious, philosophical and political system.
Many 'anti-foreigner' individuals do use the cover of criticising of Islam to mask their underlying xenophobia.
In my view most criticism of islam on the net and in print today is racist (or if you must nit-pick over words, 'xenophobic') in intent.
For example, pointing out that the members of a grooming gang are Muslims is not a critique of Islamic theology - it is racism.
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@Goldtop
How many 'oldest trick in the book' are there? :)
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@Goldtop
All the swans europeans had seen for hundreds or thousands of years were white. Hence 'All swans are white' seemed a safe bet. Then, in 1697, black swans were discovered in australia!
All the corpses seen so far have stayed dead, but whose to say one won't re-animate tomorrow? It's doesn't seem likely, but neither did finding a black swan.
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@Stephen
Really we need two words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'. Muslims aren't a race either, but to neo-nazi skinheads they are!"racism", although Islam is not a race.
It's akin to anti-semitism and anti-zionism.
the problem for islamophobes like me is that muslimophobes try to steal our clothes. One result of that is that is that you seem to think I condone or am an apologist for islamist violence and child rape. i'm not. I just believe one thinks more clearly when not frothing at the mouth with rhetorical indignation!
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@Fallaneze
It hangs on the distiction (if any) between 'proof' and 'evidence'.
A video of me shooting you is pretty near proof of my guilt. A receipt for the murder weapon in my desk drawer is evidence but nowhere near proof.
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@MagicAintReal
The devil might exist.
He's got his own show on bbc radio. (the devil, not spacey).
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@MagicAintReal
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@Logical-Master
I don't know why LM doesn't just say 'If the devil wrote the Bible to fool me, then he succeeded.' Clearly LM thinks it a risk worth taking and I agree with him - the chances the devil wrote the bible are indeed effectively zero.
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@Stephen
Christianity is pacifist. It teaches Christians to endure persecution - even to welcome it. Islam is different - it teaches that Muslims should fight to defend themselves.
Islam teaches that violence can only be justified if it is the only option and in used defensively, not offensively.
Are those principles subverted to serve personal or political ends? Of course it is - often.
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@Castin
I wouldn't trade you for spellchecker (he said loyally).
Of course, I'm in the minority.
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@Castin
proper answer;
No, we can't.
But not because 'it's a negative' as we can't prove the positive either!
As there are an infinity of negatives that can be proved, why the adage survives is a total mystery, except it sounds good.
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