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@Stephen
IF I MEANT "MODERATES",I WOULD HAVE SAID SO.
What you wrote was "muslims who actually do want to actaully live in a peaceful integrated western society.". What word you think is appropriate for the Islam do those Muslims follow?
In the west the term 'moderate Islam' was adopted for it. Some in the Muslim world - most publicly the presideny of Turkey, Erdogan - don't like that because it suggests 'moderates' follow a 'watered down' version of Islam. They insist it is them that follow Islam and it is the fanatics who are heretical non-Muslims.
So from an Islamic perspective there is not 'Islam' and 'Moderate Islam' - there is 'Islam' and a fantical heresy. But you have misundertood - or misrepresent - this to suggest that Erdogan et al are against what the west calls 'Moderate Islam' and a supporter of its fanatical splinter - the precise opposite of his meaning.
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@Stephen
You mean the 'moderates' you've been denying exist for months?Which is extremely unfortunate for muslims who actually do want to actaully live in a peaceful integrated western society.
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@disgusted
I agree, but that works best if you don't have 'faith schools'. However that cuts across all religions and probably deserves itsown thread.
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@Mopac
But you do not deny the existence of God, you admit that The Ultimate Reality exists. That is a confession that God exists.
You cling to that chop logic like a drowning man clings to a straw. I suppose you will never realise that it isn't so. I won't argue the point - not because I think you are right but because you have shown yourself to be incorrigible.
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@EtrnlVw
@Mopac
Meningitis bacteria have no heart, pure or otherwise. But the are real, thry are part of 'theTruth'. Tell me, would you tell the mother of a baby with meningitis "The righteous judgement of God appear evil to those who are unrepentant and on the receiving end of it."
Perhaps you would, as you clearly beieve it is the case.
Of course not all that is evil is natural... much evil is done by men with bad thoughts and'impure hearts'. But why bring a god into it?
Mopac - you don't have to defend your god against any charge of creating or permitting evil to me. Your god is exonerated from all charges relating to evil by virtue that... there are no gods.
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@TheRealNihilist
As I read it, anti-natalism is less about birth itself being immoral than it is about life being undesirable. The core idea is that it is better to have never been born - something many people must have felt at some point in their lives!
Certainly if one was never born one would not have to endure the many unhappy and painful things that life brings on. It is a good question whether - on balance - one is happy more than one is sad during one's life, if there are more bad things in life than good ones.
As each life contains more sadness than happiness it is immoral to create another life, condemed as it is to more pain than pleasure, because the net effect is an increase in sadness and pain in the world.
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@Mopac
@disgusted
i presume gus is refering to Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Somewhere in the OP is the Orthodox solution to the problem of how evil can exist in a world created and ruled by an all-good god. I'm not sure if it really explains murder and ebola.
As I understand it, yhe idea is that everything is from God, hence good. If it seems wrong to you then you're wrong and need to adjust your thinking.
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@Athias
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm glad it's not just me that gets that impression!From what I am gathering is that he doesn't like Muslims...
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@Stephen
I was correct as you posted the muslim takeover of Savile Town.
'Takeover' is a loaded term, don't you think? Savile Town is clearly a hot-spot in a demographic map, but it's not very big. I have no idea of the numbers but there must be hundreds of similar sized hot spots that are 90%+ 'white british'! Far from taking over' a town, it is more like they are being forced by circumstances into run down and dead-end ghettos.
Demonising or telling the truth?
It's possible to do a lot of damage 'telling the truth' by being selective and using loaded language. If I listed only your bad points I'd be telling the truth, but it wouldn't be a fair picture of you. You can't claim your aim is to present in a fair or rounded picture of Islam and Muslims when you post.
You're unlikely to link to this video!
Why not tell me what it is you want to happen?
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@disgusted
Sometimes I think he doesn't like you or me very much.
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@Snoopy
You referred to politicians.
Fair point. If I was able to revise it, I'd change it to
"Populist politicians and demgagogues thrive on exploiting scapegoats, and the Muslims are being set up for it."
This looks like a societal matter.
As opposed to a religious one? I think I agree, in that this is not a spat between rival theologians - it's about group identity and hegemony;
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@Stephen
@disgusted
AFAik, anthropologists have discovered tribes that had extremely primitive lifestyles that may resemble that of our ancient anestors, snd no tribe seems to be without some 'supernatural' beliefs.
There are right now some threads on DA about what exactly a 'god' is, so it's not a clear-cut matter at all. I think it's pretty safe to assume that humans have believed in gods (of some sort) for a very long time - maybe since we came down from the trees. But I don't think it's possile to know for sure what people believed before writing was invented and we have some text to study.
I'd bet the farm we believed in gods 10,000 years ago and a large field on 50,000. 100,000? May be, 1 million? May be not.
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That sounds racial, not religious. Normally you are careful to distinguish them!"for years this has been our area, it is a no go area for black people white people, we are Paki and you are not coming into Birchills man. You come here and you're dead"
so let us have a few examples of government/politicians setting up muslims as scapegoats? And can you name any of these muslims that have been set up as scapegoats/?
That isn't how it works and you know it. There isn't a gallery to play to Steve here - there's only me, you and maybe 2-3 other people half following this thread. You are part of a network sharing stories, videos and links that are useful for demonising Islam and Muslims. Elements of mainstream media - such as the Mail and Express - are also on the anti-immigrant/anti-Islam bandwagon.
The constant diet of anti-Muslim propaganda has had an profound effect. A lot of people seem to have assumed that 'pig' letter was writtenby a Muslim, rather than, say, a passionate vegan! The same for the attack on two girls on a London bus a couple ofdays ago - many people assumed it was 'Muslims', not yobs high on alcohol and hormones! I am not saying it wasn't Muslims - I am saying the widely held assumption that it was muslims shows that the scapegoating of Muslims has already occurred.
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@Athias
Names denote objects and are a human invention. Names are convenient and useful but not perfect - as you point out they are sometimes ambiguous.Would my name then be a necessary reference to my attributes?
As I am not sure what is in dispute I don't know what to say!
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@Stephen
But you have said yourself : "I don't fear Britain becoming an Islamic state, but I do fear it becoming an un-liberal and intolerant one". So tell me do you actually believe that an liberal and tolerant islam exists?
Of course not. What I fear - I thought this was clear but you might have the wrong end of the stick - is that British society will become illiberal and intolerant as an over-reaction to a threat that is more preceived than real.
Now you will be dieing to charge me with complacency! I am not complacent about the threat posed by radicl Islam but it's not my priority at this time nor in this place - that seems to be your job!
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@Mopac
It is actually pretty disrespectful to say God's name without reverence for the meaning.
You believe in an entity that is master of a universe containing a billion billion worlds that has existed for billions ofyears and will exist for billions more; yet he is concerned with the most pettifogging and inconsequential of trivia.
If there is any god, I doubt he is as much of a micro-managing control-freak as his acolytes are.
I think the point raised by bro about the contradictory advice given to the apostles is further evidence of the ideological split in the early church between 'Judaisers' and 'Paulines' that has come up before.
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@BrotherDThomas
What you wrote is one step away from word salad. I can't respond to something that makes no sense.
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@BrotherDThomas
It's not contradictory when properly understood, Bro.
An alternate wording is: When I write 'God' I am using it as the name of the Judeo-Christian god. In an OT context I often write yhwh (and in an Islamic context I often write Allah) to indicate even more clearly what I mean.
No doubt that be deliberately misconstrued too!
It's heavy duty pedantics to say if 'God' is a name or a title. I'm not sure it makes any difference when it comes to choosing between writing god or God.
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@Mopac
I think it's straightforward - the argument for the exitsence of the UR is based on abstract logic but the identification of the UR with God - ie with the god of Christianity - is a matter of faith.
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@Mopac
I agree that Christian dogma does not mandate hating Jews. The Thessalonian passage acknowledges that the Jews were hostile towards Christianity, but dogma is 'Love thy enemy'.
Matthew 5:44 "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
Theologically, I don't think Bro has a leg to stand on!
But anti-semitism does exist and Christianity played a part in establishing it by teaching that God had turned away from the Jews and towards the gentile world. The destruction of Israel as a Jewish state around 70AD meant that Jews were outsiders everywhere, and hence an easy target and convenient scapegoat everywhere. Theologically unsound it may be, but in practice passages such as 1Thess superficially put the jews 'beyond the pale' and justified oppressing them.
Big subject, too big for a forum post to cover in one go!
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@David
Something uncontroversial (I hope!)... what is your view of God v. G-d?
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@RoderickSpode
I can't find any official ruling, so there isn't a right and wrong here. My rule is that 'God' (capital g) is the name of the Judaeo-Christian god. In all other cases it is 'god' (small-g). That means I shouldn't ever write 'a God' and I will often write 'a god'.
Where possible I write yhwh or Allah to make absolutely sure what I am referring to. I sometimes capitalise pronouns that refer to God, but never for gods in general, so its 'He/His' for God (and Jesus), but Zeus only gets 'he/his'. Capitalising pronouns is not fashionable these days (at least not amongst atheists!) - it's just a habit from my primary school days more than half a century ago! I find myself not capitalising He/His etc carefully nowadays.
I think the important thing is consistency.
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@3RU7AL
Yes... I note my post was written as if the OP was about 'human rights' more generally, not just than just voting.
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@Mopac
You have no hope of understanding what it is I say unless you accept that God is Reality as it truly Is
But to an English speaker brought up in western culture 'God' (capital G) is the name of the god at the centre of Judeao-Christianty and we are taught that particular god has many attributes which are detailed in the Bible. Amongst those attributes is that he (it?) chose the Hebrews (to choose a ranom example).
My problem is that while an 'Ultimate Reality' must exist on logical grounds (ie in order for 'ordinary reality' to exist), you never make any case for the utimate reality to have chosen the Hebrews, is the source moralty, judges departed souls and all the other things that God (aka yhwh) is associated with. You might say that the UR/Kalam argument proves a god exists, but it doesn't prove God/yhwh exists.
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@Stephen
Hope? That too will be taken away from you sooner rather than later, and with your assistance and willingness to submit to this abhorrent ideology. You are a joke prosser, you really are.
You are a one! I don't know how many times you have to be told that I am not going to submit to islam nor do I - nor will I - give it assistance. I am a commited secularist and the prospect of an Islamicised Britain is abhorrent to me.
However IMO there is no realistic scenario that produces an Islamicised UK for generations. But the prospect of severe inter-community strife is real and immediate.
I am, however not in a position to influence events IRL. All I can do is try to ameliorate the effect of your inflamatory postings on DA, negligible though that effect is, given that the same stuff is everywhere these days.
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@Stephen
And therein lies the sad and sorry problem with all appeasing apologist for Islam like yourself
There you go again! I have never 'apologised' for Islam nor advocated appeasement. I get the impression that unless I am forthing at the mouth with righteous indignation and patriotic fervour I accept - or even desire - an Islamic take over!
The line between toleration and appeasement is a difficult one to navigate. I want peace, but not peace at any price. I worry that you want a war now, while 'we' are strong and 'the enemy' weak.
Whatever problems there are in Savile Town or Bradford, Britain is not Kosovo or Rwanda - yet. i hope it stays that way.
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@Ramshutu
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@Ramshutu
That is possible: if true, the same is true of any other species in the universe too; so I don’t take that fully seriously.
I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps we better hope there are no aliens out there as it only takes one unhinged or bored quantum mechanic any where in the universe and it's Goodnight Vienna. Cheery thought.
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@Ramshutu
its positive knowing that whatever the consequences, they are unimportant in the grand scheme of things. If we do end up destroying our planet, no divine plan is messed up; there are no external consequences - we destroy ourselves and that is all.In some ways thst is tremendously reassuring.
There is always the chance we could accidentally disturb the vacuum state of the universe. That would be end the entire universe as we know it.
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@Yassine
@PGA2.0
@TheRealNihilist
So does the truth of the Koran depend on how many friends a debater has ?His reputation goes before him. He has gained support. Thus, harder to win against.
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@BrotherDThomas
Tell me, how can I allegedly be a flame baiting troll when I bring forth an actual biblical passage, that obviously you and mopac have never seen before, and where it is not my fault that the fake Christians that are ever so trying to address it, cannot do it and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, you included?
Being a flamebaiting troll is less about subject than about style.
As I pointed out to Castin, the fact you are a troll doesn't mean those verses in Thessalonians aren't of interest, because although they aren't the only anti-jew passage in the nt, they are particularly explicit.
I am not a Christian - I am an atheist with an interest in the origins and development of religion, particularly Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I suggest you re-read my post #56
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@Athias
'God' is a 3-letter word; more precisely it is the sort of word we call a name. We use names to denote a particular object.
The object denoted has a set of attributes.
That is to say keithprosser denotes an object that (inter alia) is 5'10"tall, currently lives in Croydon, likes cats etc etc. (obviously etc etc stands for a long list of my attributes I can't be arsed to write out).
Athias denotes an object with a different set of attributes. Names are convenient because it is obviously much quicker and easier to say keithprosser than to say 'the object that is5'10" tall,livesin Croydon, likes cats... (etc etc)'.
The question 'does keithprosser exist?' is a convenient way of asking 'does the object 5'10"tall, living croydon, likes cats etc etc exist'?
Hence the question 'does God exist'? is really asking if the object with a certain set of attributes exists. The issue becomes what are the attributes of God?
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@Stephen
I don't fear Britain becoming an Islamic state, but I do fear it becoming an un-liberal and intolerant one.You mean like the Islamic State of Iran?Make your fkn mind up you apologetic clown. You do realise that Islam doesn't do democracy and liberalism is right out of the window.
Of course I realise it! I say why I don't fear Britain becoming an Islamic state in the next sentence - I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future. Be assured that if I did think Islam was becoming over-influential I would do whatever I could to roll it back. However I think the prospect of major social strife is far greater and more immediate. Populist politicians and demgagogues thrive on creating scapegoats,and the Muslims are being set up for it. That is why I do fear Britain becoming un-liberal and intolerant.
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@disgusted
That said, Musims are not evenly distributed - for example Savile Town is over 90% Muslim. Clearly 'ghettoisation' is a major obstacle to peaceful integration, and a very dificult problem to solve, In a totalitarian state people can be forcibly relocated, but Britain is not a totaliitarian state!
I certainly don't have any magic solution. But I do know the attitude of 'certain people' only makes a bad situation worse.
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@Stephen
Cafe in Bradford receives hate mail for calling itself Greedy Pigs
Does this letter seem to you to have been written by a Muslim?
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@TheRealNihilist
Voters vote for who they thought won.
Possibly you haven't read the 'voting policy' section of the DArt CoC.
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@TheRealNihilist
Can someone be right?
Yes, but formal debating isn't about discovering who is right. In a formal debate voters should vote against a debater who is right but argues badly.
That is no more the way to truth than an arm-wrestle.
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@TheRealNihilist
Like stamp collecting and historical re-enactment, some people like formal debating. It leaves me cold.
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@TheRealNihilist
The rules of debating require voters to consider how well the argument is expressed, the quality of the sources referred to, spelling ang grammar and general conduct. Bring right is irrelevant.The winner of a debate is the best debater, not the one who is right.
Formal debating is a competitive sport intended for aspiring lawyers and politicians to practice the dark arts of advocacy. It isn't for discovering truths - a good debater should be able to win arguing either side.
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@Yassine
@TheRealNihilist
The winner of a debate is the best debater, not the one who is right.
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Stephen wrote:There are what people are calling no go zones here in the UK, but mention this to an apologist for islam and they will call you an outright liar.
Apparently he is not alone in that view.
Almost a third of British people now believe the myth that there are “no-go zones” where non-Muslims cannot enter, according to a report warning of mounting intolerance.
(The Independent newspaper, oct 2018)
But no one seems to know where these no-go areas are, depite 'great swaths of the UK that have been taken over by Muslims' (stephen's words).
I have to correct Stephen on one point - I am not an apologist for islam. Yassine is, I am not. The last thing I want is an Islamic Republic of Britain.
What I am is 'anti-xenophobic'. Stephen calls me an apologist because I have tried to counter some of the more egregious fibs told about Islam and Muslims because - due to the unstinting efforts of Stephen and his like minded friends - anti-Muslim feeling is ratcheting up. I don't fear Britain becoming an Islamic state, but I do fear it becoming an un-liberal and intolerant one.
The prospect of an Islamic Britain is a bogey man - it isn't on the most distant horizon. But a Britain that has abandoned its traditions of tolerance to appease baseless fears peddled by xenophobes in the near future is very much on the cards.
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@Athias
Calling something a god doesn't make it a god.
I'm trying to make it harder to play word games. I hate exchanges like 'you believe in money, money is a god therefore you believe in god so you are not an atheist'.
Imagine sorting everything in the world (including imaginary things!)into two piles - 'gods' and 'not-gods'. What rules would be best to decide which pile to put something?
intuitively, Zeus is a god, Biggles isn't, and neither is a pair of spectacles. Can we turn intuition into rules?
Try this thought experiment: let's entertain the notion that the Bible or any tome on deities lied about their descriptions of their god/gods. Let's also consider that I tell you lies about myself: I can fly, I can transcend physical logic, I can part seas, etc. Do I not exist even though you believe me incapable of my claims?
I would put you in the not-god pile! Unless you did have the powers you claim then you'd probably qualfy was a god, ofcourse.
The fictional character you described goes in the god pile, but you yourself don't.
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@Castin
I agree that Bro is a flamebaiting troll, but 1 Thess does make intersting reading:
2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
It's not quite Martin Luther standard anti-semitism, but it's close! It is argued that the passage was inserted later and not in the original letter written by Paul, but even so it shows that relations between Jews and Christians were not cordial and the charge that the Jews killed jesus goes right back to the beginning Christianity.
I can't help surmising that Paul was concerned that the Jews had personal experience of Jesus and Jesus' teaching and so would know that Paul was peddling a distorted version. It was imperative for Paul to discredit Jewish criticism of his new religion so he cast them as actual enemies of Jesus. If so, in order to promote his 'Pauline religion', Paul single handedly invented anti-semitism.
It may be significant that the Ebionites were Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah, but did not consider him divine in any way and considered Paul an apostate. Honestly, if Doctor Who was real there is only one time and place I'd want to go. I'd love to see what was really going on, because while it's great fun to speculate wildly, it's damn frustrating!
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@Mopac
In the Arabic language, the difference between illah and Allah.
I'm not an Arabic speaker, but that seemsto be true. I suppose it's the case in many languages that very similar (or identical)words apply, such as Dieu/dieu, Gott/gott etc.
I would presume that has something to with monotheism - if there is only one god they don't need individual names. I wonder what the situation is with Hinduism... anybody?
Judaism may be a special case because it has taboos regarding the name of God - hence today many (not all) jews write G-d. I hope a Jewish member will enlighten us about that.
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@Athias
Would you say that 'Zeus is God' is wrong?God is a god; Zeus is a god.
My view is that God (ie with a capital G) is the proper name of a particular god, like 'Zeus' or 'Marduk', which are also capitalised. 'God' just happens to be confusingly similar to the generic term 'god'! Thus 'God' never refers to, say, Zeus or Marduk - God always refers to 'yhwh' or his nt equivalent.
It matters a bit because of questions like 'Did you believe in g/God?'. A deist or Hindu believes in a god, but not in God.
As an atheist, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in any other god either. A problem is that people say things like 'money is a god' - does that mean I have to disbelieve in money? Clearly not, but it's not easy to say - or put into words - what it is I don't believe in!
I think money isn't a god, even if some people do worship it. Calling something a god doesn't make it a god. i think something has to have a minium set of properties to qualify as a god. I'd say if it doesn't have consciousness it isn't a god, however god-like it is in any other respect. That's why the big bang isn't a god, even if it does have a claim to be the creator of the universe.
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@Mopac
I think you must have shares in Merriam-Webster... or do they just pay you a commission?
So that iswhat MW says - what does Mopac think the difference is between god and God?
Is saying 'I don't think there is a God' the same as saying 'I don't think there is a god'?
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@Stephen
In an AMA about Judaism, you couldn't resist a swipe at Islam and Muslims could you?
If you hadn't before, you have really gone off topic now! If you want to renew your attack on Muslims and Islam (and me!), start a thread.
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