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@Mopac
if someone asked you for a proof that the orthodox church is the one true church, what would you say?
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You liberals freak out about guns. If you have a swimming pool or a bathtub, that’s more dangerous to neighborhood kids than a gun is. Kids under age 14 are much more likely to die from drowning than from firearms. So why this crusade against guns, but not against bathtubs and pools?
Your numbers are basically right, but only because young children routinely swim and take baths but don’t regularly encounter firearms. But look at the picture for the population as a whole: Over all, 3,600 Americans drown each year, while 36,000 die from guns (yes, including suicides). That’s one reason to be talking more about gun safety than about pool safety.
Note also that a backyard pool isn’t going to be used to mug a neighbor, or to invade a nearby school. Schools don’t have drills for an “active pool situation.” And while some 200,000 guns are stolen each year, it’s more difficult to steal a pool and use it for a violent purpose.
Moreover, we do try to make pools safer. Many jurisdictions require a permit for a pool, as well as a childproof fence around it with self-locking gates. If we have permits and safe storage requirements for pools, why not for guns? What’s wrong with trying to save lives?
also the argument that pools cause more deaths, often implies that guns dont have a causation element in causing murder. it's implied that the gun just happens to be used to cause murder. but the whole point of the data i've been spittin, is that guns are cause causation... having guns around increases the liklihood of murder. there's no rational way around the data. ya'll too stupid to debate properly.
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also, having a gun around when a person is suicidal has been proven to increase the liklihood they will kill themselves. why wouldn't having a gun around during an argument increase the liklihood that a person would kill another person?
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ya'll are just ignoring why there isn't a wildly out of proportion nongun homicide rate in the usa. totally stupid arguments
also, do ya'll think having a gun around during an argument doesn't increase the liklihood of murder? totally lacking common sense if that's what u think.
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All that is, was and will be
Universe much too big to see
Time and space never ending
Disturbing thoughts, questions pending
Limitations of human understanding
Too quick to criticize
Obligation to survive
We hunger to be alive, yeah
Twisting, turning through the never
All that is, ever, ever was
Will be ever twisting, turning
Through the never
In the dark, see past our eyes
Pursuit of truth, no matter where it lies
Gazing up to the breeze of the heavens
On a quest, meaning, reason
Came to be, how it begun
All alone in the family of the sun
Curiosity teasing everyone
On our home, third stone from the sun, yeah
Twisting, turning through the never
All that is, ever, ever was
Will be ever twisting, turning
Through the never
On through the never
We must go
On through the never
Out to the
Edge of forever
We must go
On through the never
Then ever comes
Twisting, turning through the never
All that is, ever, ever was
Will be ever twisting, turning
Who we are, ask forever
Twisting, turning
Through the never
Never
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@ILikePie5
what do you think of the fact that a large majority of the globe have systems that are not plurality voting?
what do you think of the opening sentence of the article i cited?
"Any academic will tell you that our choose-one voting method (plurality voting) is a terrible, terrible voting method."
i think it's accurate.
the consensus of the planet, and objective minded people, is my way of thinking. close minded people cling to the old way of doing things, they cling to a broken system.
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@ILikePie5
the reason we have a two party system is because we have plurality voting. no one is talking about banning third parties. alternative voting systems encourage more parties.
u keep misrepresenting my position, and you keep repeating things i've debunked.
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@ILikePie5
you have it ass backwards. where do you think the two party system came from? maybe two parties is isn't what could be in theory, but for practical purposes, the only reason we have a two party system is because plurality voting is anti democracy.
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@ILikePie5
i decided our sub debate needed its own thread
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plurality voting is where you pick your favorite among a list of people. usually, this just means the person who didn't get majority support but is the largest minority, wins. often times the winner has low approval ratings for that reason. plurality voting also encourages the spoiler effect... in a country where three fourths of the country is one ideology, having multiple people in that category means the minority ideologies wins. also, plurality voting discourages third parties, because people dont want to be spoilers or parties keep people from participating. think how conservatives are keeping out the libertarian. think how hillary had low approval ratings but took the nomination anyway. think how Gore would have won twenty years ago, but Nadar spoiled his nomination. the examples are endless. it's an undemocratic process. it insists that low approval rating candidates should win.
there are alternatives to plurality voting. approval rating voting. different types of rank voting. the large majority of other countries realize our voting process makes no sense, and have an alternative system. plurality is the wild west of voting, rationality be damned.
here is an article highlighting some of the ways plurality voting sucks.
here is an article highlighting some of the ways plurality voting sucks.
Any academic will tell you that our choose-one voting method (plurality voting) is a terrible, terrible voting method. (There’s better.) In fact, plurality voting is so bad that it deserves its own top five list.Here it is.Number 5: It’s InexpressivePlurality voting is among the least expressive voting methods there is. A plurality ballot puts a slate of candidates in front of you and forces you to choose only one. No more.Consider how strange that is. You likely have opinions about all those candidates. And yet, you only get a say about one. Different voting methods allow you to express yourself in all kinds of ways such as choosing as many as you want, ranking, and scoring. But plurality lets you do none of that.Not convinced? Imagine a way to offer less information than plurality voting allows while not handing over a blank ballot. Good luck!Number 4: The Spoiler EffectAnyone awake during the 2000 US presidential election is aware of the spoiler effect. In that election, we had a candidate that didn’t win (Nader) who divided another candidate’s support (Gore). Without Nader’s presence, Gore would have won; but with Nader present, Bush won. It makes no sense for a candidate to enter the race—and lose!—yet change the winner. But that’s the kind of nonsense plurality carries out.Plurality voting is extremely sensitive to the spoiler effect. The “spoiler” candidate only needs to take away a little support from a similar candidate to sway the election. This happens because plurality only lets you choose one candidate. Because you can only pick one, voters are forced to divide their support among similar candidates.The spoiler effect influences policy as well. It largely explains the US’ draconian ballot-access laws. Third parties and independents are often forced to quickly get many thousands—sometimes tens or hundreds of thousands—of signatures to get on the ballot. To make matters worse, major parties then challenge those signatures to try to kick them off the ballot. In Pennsylvania, presidential candidate Ralph Nader was forced to pay court costs just for defending his own signatures. This heinousness plays out on the local level, too.Why do major parties do this? Without a third or fourth candidate on the ballot, there’s no worry of a spoiler. Of course that also means voters don’t get options, but that’s not the major parties’ problem. So far major parties have preferred to stifle competition and democratic speech than address the real culprit: plurality voting.Number 3: Favorite BetrayalPlurality voting can bully you into voting against your favorite candidate. It does this by giving you a dilemma: (1) Support the candidate you really want, but risk having another candidate you don’t like win; or (2) Make a compromise by choosing among the frontrunners, but abandon your favorite.How good is a voting method that punishes you for supporting your honest favorite?Not being able to vote your favorite creates further issues. For instance, there’s less motivation to improve ballot access or get signatures for your candidate. After all, why work for better options if you can’t bring yourself to vote for them yourself?Number 2: Partisan winnersWhen multiple candidates enter a plurality voting election—or advance through multi-candidate primaries—we tend to see more partisan winners. Why is that? There’s a phenomenon called the center-squeeze effect that works against moderate candidates appealing to the center. The effect looks like this:(Figure generated using the voting simulation tool created by Ka-Ping Yee.)The candidates in the middle have their vote divided and squeezed from either side while candidates on the ends pick up the support from either tail. If you had to pick a best candidate for this electorate, wouldn’t you pick the candidate right in the middle that appeas to the broadest range of voters?With all the talk about partisanship, you’d think there’d be more attention to this center-squeeze issue, but there isn’t. Instead we cross our fingers for “bipartisan agreement.” Of course, expecting bipartisan cooperation in such a partisan environment is a lot like a basketball player expecting a deliberate assist from the opposing team. Fat chance.Number 1: Barrier to EntryBarrier to entry doesn’t necessarily affect an election’s winner, but it does threaten political discourse, a crucial piece to a functional democracy. Plurality creates a barrier to entry by giving new candidates artificially low support—the consequence when voters fear to vote their favorites. This means that new candidates (including third parties and independents) don’t just lose. They lose big.Our plurality voting approach is also taken with polling. They call people at dinner time: “If the election were held today, which candidate would you vote for?”And that polling information is used in all kinds of ways, including who gets in debates. If candidates get too little support—which is what plurality does to newcomers—they don’t get in the debates. That means those candidates’ ideas don’t get heard.Media, too, consider plurality voting results when it comes to third parties and independents. Plurality’s paltry showing for third parties is the media’s excuse for why they don’t cover those candidates. Media’s reasoning to snub candidates goes something like this: “If their ideas were any good, they would have done better in the polls. They didn’t do well in the polls, so their ideas must not have been any good.” The assumption here, however, was that the poll—using plurality voting—was any good in the first place. But we know that plurality voting is no good at all.Unsurprisingly, third parties and independents rarely get anywhere. Plurality has so ingrained in us that we can’t have new ideas. It also tells us that even if a third party or independent gets on the ballot, we should dismiss them. Or maybe we should not even notice their presence.Plurality voting’s role means that we get stuck with two parties. And these two parties represent a narrow range of ideas. It’s little wonder why there’s seldom any real progress. Of course, that’s not to say there can’t be.
it's such a stupid system, that i distrust the motives of those who support it. maybe their favorite candidate has no chance otherwise? maybe they're just ignorant of the vast number of alternative voting systems? who knows.
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the debate was a clusterfuck.. it's all a clusterfuck to the whitehouse
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@ILikePie5
approval ratings can be determined with a vote, same as any other system, at a voting booth. i dont think people are stupid. i think the plurality voting is stupid. the process is stupid, because it, and not the candidates or the people, chooses the winner oftentimes.
so you're cool with kasich running and stealing votes from trump? you're cool with the libertarian is is already running getting a better shot at winning by getting on the debate stage and such? you're cool with a bunch of conservatives running and making it so none of them can win, simply because of the process?
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kasich doesn't want trump to win anyway. pllus i dont think many people probaly including himself thinks he has much of a future in elected politics, given he doesnt tow party lines and such. he'd be a perfect person to show you guys how stupid plurality voting really is.
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@ILikePie5
no one is talking about banning third parties. i'm talking about approval rating voting, where the person with the highest approval rating wins, or goes to a run off. this would encourage more people to run, would encourage more third and fourth etc parties.it would discourage radicals, it would better unity the country. it would better capture the will of the people. it wouldn't allow third parties to stop the most popular person from winning.
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kasich or rubio or someone like that should run as a third party, just to split the conservative vote. see how you guys like those apples.
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@ILikePie5
ok here's a hypothetical. trump, kasich, and john doe are running in the general election. doe is a moderate. sixty percent of the electorate is conservative and trump has high approval ratings and john doe has low approval ratings. the final tally of the vote was trump got 35 percent of the vote, kasich got 25% of the vote, and john doe got 40% of the vote. so, even though most of the electorate is conservative and even though trump has high approval ratings.... you think john doe should win because he has the highest plurality, and the conservative vote being split doesn't matter, and his low approval rating doesn't matter? you think all this is the superior outcome, given your beloved plurality voting process was adhered to?
you think trump should lose in this case even though he's the most liked and only lost due to a split vote?
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@ILikePie5
why won't you just admit that you think that sometimes people with low approval ratings should be elected president?
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@Greyparrot
you think people like hillary should have won the nomination. that is never acceptable. she had low approval ratings, but she fulfilled meeting the expectations of your stupid process that was involved, plurality voting.
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@Greyparrot
electing presidents with low approval ratings is bad for democracy
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@ILikePie5
so you think it's a smart process, when a third party challenges the two leading candidates, and the most popular candidate loses, because the third party skimmed votes off their top but was an unpopular person? how much sense does that make? wow, you guys are stupid. trump supporters, who would have thought otherwise.
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@ILikePie5
why do you think it's smart or okay for people with low approval ratings to be nominated or elected president, just so we can preserve your sense of process?
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bernie didn't get shafted in the process. in a head to head, bernie lost solidly. the guys that were asked to leave the race may have got shafted from the process to make their fight, but they weighed their options themselves. the only reason that even happened is because stupid people like the above posters think people with low approval ratings should become president, and they wont support changing the system.
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@ILikePie5
the only conclusion that can be drawn, is that you think people with low approval ratings should sometimes be nominated or elected president. i think that should never happen. you care too much about process even when the process is retarded and makes no sense, and subverts the will of the people. you are stupid for thinking such a system has any value at all, and you are way out of line and immoral for subverting the will of the people.
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@ILikePie5
why is it better for someone like bernie to win if they have lower approval ratings? i dont have the stats for approval ratings, but if joe got twice the vote in a head to head, he must have higher approval ratings. you are pushing for plurality voting, where the largest faction wins. how is this better just because it's a free for all? it's a stupid system. if we dont switch to the 'approval rating' voting system like i advocate, i dont see any harm in influencing the vote so that the most popular person wins. you do realize that hillary only won four years ago because of plurality voting? she had no business winning the nomination, even if it's who the DNC wanted.
i support the will of the people. you dont
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@ILikePie5
if you concede that joe would win against bernie head to head, how exactly is it rigged? you mention vague notions of the DNC supporting joe, but so what? even if they should be neutral but aren't, it's still joe getting the votes himself. voters dont care much for what the DNC thinks. at least not enough voters care tot make a difference, especially when joe has twice as many votes as bernie. you also act like bernie may have been better for the general election.... based on what? joe gets moderate conservatives, who would jump at the chance to vote for trump over bernie. you have some points that bernie has advantages, but you make no valid point that he'd be better off in a general election... if twice as many liberals in the primary voted for joe over bernie, do you really think bernie is going to peal off more conservatives than joe? you're not even being rational at this point.... u r just using fuzzy thinking, the fuzzy thinking that is always present when peeps start talking about how the election is rigged. u know when u hear that, that all thinking has stopped in that individual, cause they r brainwashed.
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@ILikePie5
when joe and bernie were head to head, joe got two thirds of vote and bernie got only a third. how does this translate into a rigged election? how does this fit your theory that bernie was more popular?
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@ILikePie5
joe was polling good in future states beyond the first few states. joe fared better with conservatives too. just because he wasn't doing good in the polls early on doesn't prove anything... a poll based on plurality voting and an approval rating are completely different, and i think joe had better approval ratings across all demographics.
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i'm the opposite of many trumpanzees. i like trump's personality, i dont like his politics.
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joe won because he was the consensus candidate, the guy most people liked. yes the DNC convinced the losing moderates to drop out, so they could prevent sanders from winning. but if sanders won, that would only be a testament to the stupid aspects of plurality voting, where the biggest minority wins, not the most popular candidate.
all this 'the election is rigged' stuff is what stupid people say. yes there were politics involved, but biden was still the most popular candidate and more importantly he got the most votes.
so it's retarded to say the election was rigged. that's what brainwashed people say.
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@bmdrocks21
if u support financial aid for child rearing, and support affordable housing and such.... how are you different than a liberal? is it more your style? do you feel u r pushing smart policy whereas liberals push throwing money at problems?
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@bmdrocks21
i'm not fundamentally against paying people to have kids. but what if instead of this scheme above, you helped with child care? i'm kinda conservative, so i balk at child care but am more receptive to the above plan. i dont have a good reason, though. once u get into the realm of paying people a monthly check, or assisting in that sorta way... you get into "welfare" arguments and such. this is getting into style arguments instead of substance.
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if it's true that the gun increases the likelihood of murder during an argument, then why do gun nuts insist that having guns around makes no difference in the murder rate?
also, look at the major english speaking countries, USA, UK, canada, and australia (you can also look at the developed world, too)... they all have the same nongun homicide rate. but when u look at gun homicide rate, the usa is wildly out of sync. it's noteworthy, that the usa has half the world's guns while havin only four percent of the world's population.
so we go back to the simple example, having a gun around during an argument. of course having guns around increases the murder rate... to say anything else denies the obvious example, and ignores the science. now, i'm sure folks will continue to ignore why there isn't a wildly out of whack nongun murder rate in the usa. but the simple fact remains, that if the usa just has a bad person problem and not a gun problem, there would be wildly out of whack non-gun murders too. (to be sure it's possible that folks just prefer to use guns instead of other weapons... but this is still too far fetched, cause if it's true, there should still be non-gun murders wildly out of whack)
what non sense and non answers do ya'll gun nuts have to answer with?
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@Tradesecret
what are your views on this?
also why do you go to lengths to deny whether God really does kill infants in some instances, when there are so many other examples of God doing just that that aren't debateable?
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i read that it's not considered a fetus until like ten weeks, tho. on the other hand there's movement starting around eight weeks.
i definitely say when the fetus feels pain is way past due to ban abortion, generally.
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i like the idea of banning abortion after the heart starts beating and brain waves form. those indicators are used to measure the end of life... it could be used to measure the beginning too. the thing about brain waves though, is that there's just simple electrical activity at first, and i wouldn't be sure of when to 'count' the beginning of brain waves.
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oh geez. i was jus' playin. for shits and giggles. just for kicks. not to be taken seriously.
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God said that all the first borns in Egypt would die, including the israelites, unless they sacrificed a lamb and smeared the blood on their door frame.
what was the purpose of this? is it cool for God to kill in such a random way because of inherited sin? or what is the basis for God's decision? why would God even orchestrate this system? was this a literal story that happened? what is the skeptic and atheist view of all this?
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what are the rules of the trump supporter circle jerk that we have in this forum?
can anyone join the circle jerk? or do you have to be someone who sucks trump's dick? would a liberal be cast out of your circle jerk or is it a free for all orgy?
is greyparrot the alpha male of the circle jerk? he is the one that gets the most like, slash jerk offs. of course it's assumed that the orange man himself, trump, is the ultimate alpha male of your circle jerk.
do you guys do other sexual shit beside the circle jerk? is a reach around considered proper etiquette? do ya'll fantasize about trump when jerking off each other?
i'm sure i'll have more questions, but this is just for starters.
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@3RU7AL
are you saying young blacks have no choice but to act like thugs, because they are poor? are you saying thug culture has no choice but to exist, because they are generally poorer.. or maybe you are saying white racism causes thug culture?
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her stubbornness in refusing to resign years ago caught up with her.
no more lettin john roberts stand in the way of the conservative majority on the court
this one's for all the marbles
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@HistoryBuff
i could be convinced, but i would need to see numbers. if median income is gonna fall, there should be a way to measure that. not sure what numbers to look at.
i agree the middle class is the driver of the economy, but as long as we're among the top in the world, i dont think we can say it's bad, at least yet.
it's not good that income has been stagnant, but at least it keeps up with inflation. it can't go up forever. again, i go back to comparing our income to the rest of the world.
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