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@IlDiavolo
Siding with? I'm not sure what my choices are. I am glad that some countries are taking an active role in protecting my family and friends.
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@fauxlaw
The tribes were counted as 12 in 2 different ways, depending on the purpose of the counting.
And yes, modern Judaism also has converts and the children of converts. The point was that it is not only the tribe of Judah which created Jews.
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@fauxlaw
This is inaccurate. There were 12 or 13 tribes and they all lived in the land. The nation split into two kingdoms and the Southern Kingdom was the kingdom of Judah. It had primarily people from the tribe of Judah but also from alevi, Benjamin and some refugees from other tribes. Modern Jews are from that kingdom, but not necessarily the tribe of Judah.
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@IlDiavolo
There was and is a "nation of Israel" but the current political entity in the mid east is the STATE of Israel.
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@WyIted
Iow you know very little about me.
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@WyIted
If you know where I live why did you start your post with "American here"?
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I can't answer the second question but the answer to the first is "probably not, depending on what you mean by Nation."
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@Shila
It isn't just that your question is illogical but that it is steeped in a lack of knowledge of the biblical text.
How about this - you keep on jumping from topic to topic, never trying to understand and I'll just watch you continue to say dumb things. If you ever pose a serious question, I'll consider chiming in.
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@AdaptableRatman
The seven laws are too vague?
There is a lot of discussion and many details
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-seven-noachide-laws
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@AdaptableRatman
No he hasn't. I tell you that boldly and truly.
Get educated.
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@AdaptableRatman
the promised, future king-messiah has not come yet. The necessary prophecies have not been fulfilled. If you have questions, please ask.
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@Shila
More the irrelevant, stupid and hateful bin. Do you ever say anything on point?
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@Shila
I'm wondering if your post is more ignorant, irrelevant or hateful. It clearly is all 3 but I have to figure out the percentages.
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@Shila
With the temple destroyed. The Jews have no place to offer sacrifices for their forgiveness. Not believing in Jesus takes away the only other option available. The Jews have been rotting in their evil since 70AD.
all you are doing is advertising your own ignorance.
Not only were sins forgiven using other methods, but even for the sins for which, biblically, a sacrifice (not always an animal), we were given other methods of repentance and forgiveness for when there are no sacrifices.
So you are wrong on so many levels.
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@Shila
6 million dead Palestinians is the Jewish goal.
no, it's not. Try to make up stuff that is remotely believable.
The world is against Jews today as much as they were in the past.
so?
Jesus called the Jews prophets to killers.Yes, the New Testament includes passages where Jesus makes this claim. Jesus frequently accused the Jewish religious leaders (scribes, Pharisees, and elders) of rejecting and persecuting prophets of God, both in the past and in his own time. He also criticized their hypocrisy and their focus on religious law over love and compassion.
ok. Who cares what Jesus supposedly said if he even existed?
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@Shila
No they didn't. Stay focused. You can do it.
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@Shila
It’s a consequence of the Jews denial of Jesus.
No it isn't. That's silly.
Some call it ethnic cleansing.
That's not relevant.
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@WyIted
If you want to learn about the concept of 2 messianic figures, then here is a starting point
and here is more in depth discussion
After reading that, you will not be able to defend Jesus as part of the frame work.
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@WyIted
On this site yes. It's an invitation for a rebuttal. Asking questions is for learning new things, statements are. For unlearning. We are all wrong we just have to figure out how
That's the worst way to go about learning -- say something wrong and hope someone corrects you. Statements aren't questions and claims that are baseless shouldn't be made in the first place, not excused because being wrong is celebrated until someone decides to take on the burden of correcting. Learning should come before making statements.
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@WyIted
Yes two different. Almost as if one dies and then later comes back and is resurrected and finishes the prophecy.
no, 2 different people. 1 dies and he is dead. They have 2 different roles and purposes.
The theory of two of them should be a red flag for you but instead of you deny your own Messiah .
the fact that the two are not as you understand should be a red flag that you are speaking about something you don't understand.
There is just this history of the Jewish people of this nonsense. Now you see that Jesus has fulfilled your prophecy and you know for a fact they are filled in two parts because of the dual Messiah theory and yet you deny it and you will continue use to be filled by the occasional and obvious false prophets like Sabbatai Zevi.
Jesus diodn't fulfill prophecies and if you learn Jewish law and ideas you will see that having 2 messianic figures isn't necessarily a required part of the eventual emergence of the king messiah.
You really should ask instead of assuming that you know things. Because you don't.
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@Shila
The Christians and Muslims have found their God and prophet. The Jews are still in denial . The Holocaust serves as a reminder history often repeats itself if you don’t learn from it.
The Jews never needed to "find" anything because
The Holocaust is a reminder of many things but nothing to do with Jesus.
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@fauxlaw
By the way, it was Jewish custom by rabbinical law to list genealogies by matriarchial order, not patrilineal. Luke is argued to be a gentile by Paul, not a Jew [Colossians 4] Matthew was a Levite, not of the house of Judah, either.
No it wasn't. Genealogies are recorded by fathers. Religion is determined by the mother and tribal/family affiliation (usually) by the father.
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@Shila
The 70AD destruction of the temple by the Romans was to put down an insurrection by the Jews against the Roman occupation.
that's not a Jewish idea, but if you like that, you can go with it.
But the Holocaust was to punish the Jews labeled as Christ killers.
I'm not sure why you invent this, but if it floats your boat, have at it.
Unlike the Jews the Muslims honour and respect the prophet Mohammad that God sent after Jesus.
Great -- who cares. Judaism says he wasn't a prophet and Jews see no value in him and texts purpoting to be about him.
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@WyIted
It's funny how many early Jewish scholars thought that the prophecy were two partners meaning either a Messiah who comes back after leaving a while to finish
no, Jewish scholars didn't believe that.
fulfilling prophecy or 2 Messiah that comes at different times but as soon as Jesus appears these scholars are randomly brushed aside.
Actually, no -- the tradition of 2 different messianic figures is still part of Judaism. Jesus was neither of them.
What happens to all prophets in their home town?
go ask Joshua. Go ask Moses. Go ask Elijah.
Why would the Messiah be any different?
if you don't understand the difference, then you should probably stop now.
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@WyIted
So pronouncements are another way to ask questions. You state something as fact on a debate site as an invitation to be corrected.
really? Instead of asking when you don't know something, you lead with mistakes and expect someone to come pick up after you?
A pronouncement is a claim -- it is an assertion of fact. It is not a question.
If I started a thread saying "all Christians have to floss 7 times a day according to their religion" then that's a question? No, that's a false claim and a foolish one to make without any knowledge.
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@Shila
And why do you think that anything that happened to Jews is related to denying Jesus? What if a Muslim were to tell you that Pearl Harbor happened because Christians denied Mohammed?
That wouldn't make much sense. Some issue here. The link you are trying to make is illogical and has no basis in reality.
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@Shila
I have no idea what you are getting at.
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@Shila
Would you have preferred the Holocaust happened sooner?
I would have preferred that it didn't happen at all. Why do you ask?
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@Shila
Approximately, sure.
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@AdaptableRatman
None of those comments on the idea of the god head so nothing in there contradicts my claim.
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@AdaptableRatman
I'm not sure on what basis you are claiming that. In their natures, the god ideas in Judaism and Islam are the same unless you can show me how they are not. Your claim was that the god of Islam "He is pure evil and loathes Jews." But those are not elements of the God idea, just actions of the god character.
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@AdaptableRatman
Yes I really do. Allah of Islam isnt Yhwh.
In its idea, it is. In its actions, it isn't. This is pretty basic stuff.
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@Shila
It happened almost 2000 years after the Jews rejected Jesus and the gospels. The crusades also happened, a lot earlier.
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@AdaptableRatman
Is Judaism Calvinist?
As I am not a student of religions, I can't discuss Calvinism
Do we have free will?
We have freedom of choosing. It isn't exactly the same of free will in theory but in practice it seems very similar.
No they do not. Allah is not Yhwh even in concept.
Then you don't understand the concepts of god being used.
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@AdaptableRatman
How is he the same?
in Judaism and Islam? He isn't the same, but the religions share a common concept of god. You do understand the distinction, right?
Does Yhwh consider all as his slaves?
In Judaism, yes, in a way.
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@AdaptableRatman
No you dont.
yes, we do
Muslim Allah is extremely different to Yhwh. He is pure evil and loathes Jews.
but in his nature, he is the same as the Jewish conception of God
I can quote you Qur'an where this is proven.
but all you would be proving is that we have a different God, not a different idea of God.
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@AdaptableRatman
For gentiles, only Christianity has Yhwh as G*d. Other gentile religions generally have false deity or nonYhwh at least.
Judaism and Christianity share a God but not an idea of god. Jews and Muslims share an idea of god but not a God.
We cannot easily at all become Jews and are discouraged to.
But you don't need to become a Jew according to Judaism.
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@AdaptableRatman
Without Christianity how can we put Yhwh first as our God?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Putting God first doesn't require any particular religion.
We cant even have churches or gentile synagogues.
why not?
Lets say we broke a law in the past, how can we make up for it?
We can't (that we is everyone) change the past. We can ask forgiveness and try to make amends but we also have to look towards the future, in which we don't break the law.
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@AdaptableRatman
So the gentiles are left to just guess what code to follow to end up in Heaven while you get a 613 rule strict guide to ensure you go there?Is that fair?
You say "so" as if that passes logically from something I said. It doesn't.
As to your question, non-Jews have clear rules to follow that apply to them.
Follow those 7 and get to heaven. The Jews has to follow so many more to get into heaven. Is that fair?
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@Shila
Yes, that is what we are doing. We reject Jesus and the gospels. This isn't tough to do considering all the errors in the gospels.
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@Shila
While Jewish religious leaders may have initially viewed Jesus' claims as blasphemy, the Romans were more concerned with political stability and potential threats to their rule. The Romans ultimately condemned Jesus for treason, not blasphemy.
ok, so what?
Here's a more detailed explanation:Jewish accusations:Jewish religious leaders, particularly within the Sanhedrin, likely viewed Jesus' claims to be the Messiah, God's Son, and King of the Jews as blasphemy, violating Jewish religious laws.
except that isn't blasphemy under Jewish law. Nothing was violated.
But it was the Jews that demanded Jesus be crucified.Mark 15:13-15 NIV - “Crucify him!” they shouted.13 “Crucify him!” they shouted. 14 “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”.
so if one believes the gospels, then the Jews, an oppressed group, somehow told their oppressor what to do.
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@Shila
The Jews killed him before he could finish his mission. They demanded the Romans crucify him for blasphemy.
you mean that according to the gospels, Jews made a demand of their oppressors, and that demand was for a secular ruler to use a non-sanctioned form of capital punishment to kill someone who hadn't commited the crime of blasphemy uner Jewish law.
IOW, nothing that would make any sense in terms of Judaism.
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@AdaptableRatman
But that's not what the prophecy says.
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@AdaptableRatman
you are kidding, right?
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@AdaptableRatman
I also want to comprehend a nonTalmudic reason from Tanakh alone that proves Christ messiah was somehow not Yeshua.
well, here are four prophecies (with sources) that are the sine qua non of the future king messiah:
-He must build the ThirdTemple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred,oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire worldas one (Zechariah 14:9)
Jesus didn't fulfill these. Therefore, based on textual verses, he could not have been the promised future king messiah.
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If you have questions about Judaism, it makes more sense to ask them than to rely on false premises and a lack of knowledge to make pronouncements.
Unless you are starting with an agenda and preconceived notions and have no real interest in hearing any other opinion besides your own.
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"if verified"
Yeah, but til then...
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If I thought that there was any human being actually interested in discussing this topic, there is certainly more I would add, but if all that is here is a troll who, starting with a (mediocre at best) translation, then misstates that translation in order to push the same trolling agenda, then I'll just step away. If anyone wants to learn about Judaism, please let me know
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@Shila
Still can't be answered.
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