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@RationalMadman
I know that there is a practice among some non-Jews to say a prayer to St. Anthony when something is lost. There is a similar practice among some people in Judaism (https://rmbhcharities.com/lost-object/) . It hasn't really caught on though. Years ago, when my mother-in-law was alive, she used to point out that she said a prayer to St. Anthony to find stuff (even though she was Jewish). It annoyed my wife so much that every time my MIL lost something, my wife would say the Jewish equivalent so if my MIL bragged that St. Anthony helped, my wife would say "no, it was God, because I said this other prayer."
No, my wife didn't believe that the prayer allowed the thing to be found. But it DID annoy her mother, so...
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@BrotherD.Thomas
I have already and repeatedly demonstrated your lack of knowledge about Judaism and the Jewish bible. You ran away (no copyright...my pearls are open source) so I won't waste breath showing you up yet again, and I won't derail my own thread chasing your foolishness. Meanwhile, if you have any questions that are actually related to the content of this thread, I would be happy to try and answer them.
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@Castin
Agreed -- the transactional nature of prayer is not really connected to Judaism. We do what we do because we are supposed to do it. We recognize God because that's the most essential part of the religion.
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@ludofl3x
Prayer is, for an observant Jew, a requirement. Not only are there 3 mandatory daily prayer services (4 on Sabbath and holidays, 5 on Yom Kippur) for males (and 1 mandatory for women) but there are also individual blessings which are required in most situations (everything from before and after eating to when seeing an old friend, to after using the bathroom, to when hearing of a death).
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Judaism views prayer as a necessary component to Jewish practice but it breaks prayer into separate categories. Only one small section of prayer is equated to "ask." Prayers are more often either praise of recognition/thanks (or, in another sense, permission).
A prayer therefore can be structured as "thank you for being you, God" or "I have this obligation to do something so I'm recognizing that I have this obligation" or "I know that the whole world belongs to God so before I do ____ it is important for me to acknowledge that."
That leaves that small section of "please grant me _____" and even those are for more general ideas, not for specific items. Though individuals can add in private requests, we "ask" about big concepts, not things. But even on that level, because asking for big ideas is not appropriate on the Sabbath and holidays, those sections are omitted so the prayer can just be about praise and recognition/thanks.
People outside of Judaism seem to see "askling" as a central and intrinsic part of prayer and they therefore measure their prayer by "getting an answer." But if you see prayer as not about asking, then you don't judge its efficacy by some discernable response.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
This rabbi is not lying. You have no actual leg to stand on so you dismiss what you don't like.
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@Tradesecret
The patience comes from my being a high school teacher.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
I have no interest in explaining the errors in John. The fact that the translators don't understand the various meanings of a Hebrew word and chose one that suited them even though it isn't what the Hebrew actually means is not persuasive. The text does not say "you are Gods" in Psalms. Check the Aramaic to confirm or read the Radak to understand (he provides an interesting textual proof).
And, again, making an over-arching statement "Jews are generally not" anything is problematic.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Well, I'm an Orthodox Jewish rabbi and have been working in the Jewish community for almost 30 years. But you must know better...
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@GnosticChristianBishop
You have a very different understanding of Jewry from that of many Jews. Steiner, by the way, was against anti-semitism but was not jewish.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
You wrote,
Jewry have always put man above God.
but i'm not sure what you mean by that.
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The Hebrew phrase in question is וּקְנֵה־בֹ֖שֶׂם which, transliterated is u'k'neh vosem (literally, "and an aromatic reed"). It appears only in Ex 30:23. The word kaneh (reed) appears in Isaiah 42:3 and elsewhere.
The word vosem (though in the form of besem) appears also in 30:23 after "kinman" (cinnamon). It refers to the aromatic property and to its existence as a spice (see Ex 35:28). In the same verse there is the other form "besamim" which refers to spices.
The etymology of cannabis, according to some experts is semitic, from this Hebrew phrase so there is no coincidence that the words sound alike -- it is a matter of appropriating the Hebrew to apply to something else.
This aromatic reed is usually translated as the Calamus plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorus_calamus but there are other references
Klein's Etymological Dictionary of Hebrew
בשׂם (Bosem) to have a sweet odor.
— Qal - בָּשַׂם was fragrant, was pleasant.
— Pi. - בִּשֵּׂם PBH 1 he perfumed, spiced; NH 2 he made pleasant.
— Pu. - בֻּשַּׂם PBH 1 was spiced, was perfumed; NH 2 was made pleasant; MH 3 he became drunk, became intoxicated.
— Hith. - הִתְבַּשֵּׂם PBH 1 he spiced himself, perfumed himself; PBH 2 he flavored himself with; NH 3 he became drunk, became intoxicated.
— Hiph. - הִבְשִׂים 1 he spiced, perfumed; 2 it gave a pleasant odor. [Aram. בְּסִים, Syr. בּֽסֵם (= was sweet, was pleasant), Aram. בַּסִּימָא (= sweet), Palm. (משחא) בשימה (= spiced oil), Arab. bashima (= was affected with disgust), Akka. bashāmu (= to make beautiful). cp. בסם.] Derivatives: בֹּשֶׂם, בֶּשֶׂם, בָּשָׂם, בַּשָּׂם, בָּשׂוּם, בִּשּׂוּם, בָּשְׂמִי, הִתְבַּשּֽׂמוּת, מֽבֻשָּׂם, מִבְשָׂמָה.
— Qal - בָּשַׂם was fragrant, was pleasant.
— Pi. - בִּשֵּׂם PBH 1 he perfumed, spiced; NH 2 he made pleasant.
— Pu. - בֻּשַּׂם PBH 1 was spiced, was perfumed; NH 2 was made pleasant; MH 3 he became drunk, became intoxicated.
— Hith. - הִתְבַּשֵּׂם PBH 1 he spiced himself, perfumed himself; PBH 2 he flavored himself with; NH 3 he became drunk, became intoxicated.
— Hiph. - הִבְשִׂים 1 he spiced, perfumed; 2 it gave a pleasant odor. [Aram. בְּסִים, Syr. בּֽסֵם (= was sweet, was pleasant), Aram. בַּסִּימָא (= sweet), Palm. (משחא) בשימה (= spiced oil), Arab. bashima (= was affected with disgust), Akka. bashāmu (= to make beautiful). cp. בסם.] Derivatives: בֹּשֶׂם, בֶּשֶׂם, בָּשָׂם, בַּשָּׂם, בָּשׂוּם, בִּשּׂוּם, בָּשְׂמִי, הִתְבַּשּֽׂמוּת, מֽבֻשָּׂם, מִבְשָׂמָה.
בֹּֽשֶׂם, בָּשָׂם, בֶּֽשֶׂם m.n. 1 balsam tree, Balsamodendron Opolbalsamum. 2 balsam oil. 3 scent, fragrance. [From בשׂם. cp. JAram. בּוּשֽׂמָא, בּוּסְמָא, Syr. בֶּשְׂמָא, Arab. basham (= spice, balsam, perfume). Gk. balsamon (= balsam) — whence L. balsamum — is a loan word from Heb. בָּשָׂם. cp. בֹּסֶם. cp. also בַּלְסָם, בַּלֽסֽמוֹן and אֲפַרְסֽמוֹן.]
The next two are from the Sefaria site
Source: : Open Scriptures on GitHub
Creator: Based on the work of Larry Pierce at the Online Bible
בֶּשֶׂם (n-m) heb
- spice, balsam, balsam tree, perfume
- (TWOT) sweet, sweet smell, sweet odour
- spice, balsam, balsam tree, perfume
קָנֶה (n-m) heb
- reed, stalk, bone, balances
- stalk
- water-plant, reed
- calamus (aromatic reed)
- derived meanings
- measuring-rod
- reed (as unit of measure-6 cubits)
- beam (of scales-for scales themselves)
- shaft (of lampstand)
- branches (of lampstand)
- shoulder-joint
- measuring-rod
- stalk
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@GnosticChristianBishop
What Hillel said in the talmud, Tractate Shabbat 31a (he was being goaded by a non-Jew who said he would convert on the condition that Hillel could tell him the entire Torah while the man stood on one foot) was
אָמַר לוֹ: דַּעֲלָךְ סְנֵי לְחַבְרָךְ לָא תַּעֲבֵיד — זוֹ הִיא כׇּל הַתּוֹרָה כּוּלָּהּ, וְאִידַּךְ פֵּירוּשַׁהּ הוּא, זִיל גְּמוֹר
"He said to him: what is for you hateful, to your friend, do not do -- this is the entirety of the Torah and the other is explanation, go finish."
It is important to note two very difficult words: idach (which means both "another" and "that") and gmor which means both "study" and "finish." The precise meaning of the phrase is worth discussing because of the different implications of the various meanings of those (and other) words.
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Todays is Pesach Sheini (the second Passover) also known as Pesach Katan or Pesach Zeira (small or young Passover). It is the result of some people's ineligibility to partake in the initial Passover offering because of their spiritual impurity. They asked for an opportunity to be part of the ritual once they had cleansed themselves, so God set up a day one month after the Passover for them to have a small version of the holiday.
Here is some info on it:
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Divorce is a thing in Judaism but it requires more than just a tripled magic spell. (that's more of a Steve Martin reference)
It requires an authority to write a bill of divorce and the bill to be delivered. All this comes after counseling and a decision to separate.
It is not without its religious catches and there are certain inequities and problems with it (which are still and currently being dealt with unfortunately) but it is a thing.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
If you sprinkle it on my food and I don't know about it then it is as if I didn't eat it. The issue isn't some sort of impurity caused by the ingestion -- it is about the breaking of a rule intentionally.
If you tell me afterwards, then I will be much more careful having food around you in the future.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It is a fascinating fear which is why we insist on supervision of the food prep process. In fact (and here's a lesser known requirement) -- if a religious Jew leaves a piece of meat unguarded for any length of time, he is forbidden from eating it because of a concern that someone monkeyed (piggied?) with it in his absence.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
when you come up with something new, please let me know. As has been shown, you can't read the text and don't understand what others try to explain to you. You are clearly ashamed of your ignorance and hide behind the bluster of all-caps and constant reruns because you have nothing more or new to add.
I do feel sorry for you and your pretend persona. You need a better hobby. You aren't very good at this one.
I'll let you continue to blather and get whatever last word makes you think you exist. Good luck chasing your imaginary tail.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
When you can actually understand the literal words, then we can talk. Instead, you rely on translations and interpretations that satiate your troll-lust.
Troll on, troll.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
so basically, you want to assume that the biblical text exists as you understand it, literally and in an English that makes sense to you, and any other culture that sees it differently, or understands it to be more complex is based on "spinning" the text.
OK. If that's your choice of ignorance, then so be it. I mean, it doesn't change the fact that the verses you chose are from particular books that have very different values and uses in the overall corpus of canonical biblical text. This might be too subtle for you. But whatever -- you have decided on something and who am I to point out that you haven't a clue. That would be the troll's undoing.
Go troll, go!
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@BrotherD.Thomas
so just reruns because you have nothing new. OK, I didn't expect anything more from you. When you are proven to be ignorant you just hit the ol' caps lock, and run around in circles.
But listen, when you are ready to learn and curious about things in a sincere way (and you can even do this under a different screen name so you don't have to water down your brand), feel free to ask real questions and work through actual answers. Until then, best of luck and a חג כּשׁר ושׁמח
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Oooh, swing and a miss.
The actual text reads וּמוֹצֶ֨א אֲנִ֜י מַ֣ר מִמָּ֗וֶת אֶת־הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אֲשֶׁר־הִ֨יא מְצוֹדִ֧ים וַחֲרָמִ֛ים לִבָּ֖הּ אֲסוּרִ֣ים יָדֶ֑יהָ ט֞וֹב לִפְנֵ֤י הָאֱלֹהִים֙ יִמָּלֵ֣ט מִמֶּ֔נָּה וְחוֹטֵ֖א יִלָּ֥כֶד בָּֽהּ׃
and the fact that you are using a quote from Yeshayahu to discuss a quote from Kohelet is HILARIOUS. If you had ANY idea what you just did, you would be even more ashamed of your ignorance than you already should be!
So, again, I ask -- do you have anything new or are you going to keep repeating the same stuff that has been explained and answered? Are you a parrot, and one who is stuck?
So very, very sad.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
so I take it you couldn't read the direct and on point answers I wrote. That's sad. I gave you specific and accurate responses which totally and completely answered exactly what you asked but you are too ignorant to understand it, so all you can do is repeat the question which has, as I said, already been answered. You call it "running away" because you can't read it. But, in fact, it is the exact opposite -- it is dealing precisely with what you wanted to know. You, though, are running away from learning anything.
Don't you have anything new? Or will you just keep restating that which has been dealt with? This just parades your lack of ability, knowledge, or interest in learning anything.
So sad.
I'm sure that you are really struggling with you inability and might be ashamed of it, but you know what they say, "וְלֹא הַבַּיְשָׁן לָמֵד"
well...you don't know, I guess.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Hi BrotherD,
Assuming one can get past the clear dictate that וְהָכְתִיב: ״אֵלֶּה הַמִּצְוֹת״, שֶׁאֵין נָבִיא רַשַּׁאי לְחַדֵּשׁ דָּבָר מֵעַתָּה and the obvious קל וחומר that would apply this even moreso so content from כתובים , you would still have to deal with statements like what Rashi says on that verse (7:26)
"אֶת הָאִשָּׁה", זוּ הַמִּנוּת
The Nachal Eshkol quotes an opinion which many might feel is sexist in applying the verse, "אם היא מחזקת עצמה כמו איש אז היא מר ממות"
A bridge from this to a more common understanding is based in the Targum, "דִמָרִיד עַל אֱנָשׁ יַתִּיר מִן מְרִיר יוֹם מוֹתָא יָת אִתְּתָא"
In terms of codified law, you can start in the Sefer Hamitzvos, "רוצה לומר המשך אחר התאוות הגשמיות והתעסק המחשבה בהן" which should clarify a lot.
The Pninei Halacha makes the application even clearer:
"אשה טובה – אין סוף לטובתה, ואם היא אשה רעה – אין סוף לרעתה". וכן מסופר (יבמות סג, א), על רבי חייא שבירך את רב תלמידו, שיצילנו ה' מדבר שקשה ממוות, היינו מאשה רעה
And he cites this verse and (משלי יח כב) מצא אשה מצא טוב to make his point.
So I hope this clears things up for you. Glad we could spend this time learning all the sources together.
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@FLRW
OK, got it. Thanks. I hope you didn't lose too much family in Germany in the 30's and 40's.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Careful, those are some cross words.
Quite a puzzle.
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@FLRW
so your mother's grandparents were Jewish? Were they her father's parents or her mother's parents?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
there are many different flavors of plague
no more flood, let's have us a hail storm.
how about a disease?
can I send an invading army instead?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Rosends is a good guy.
just try to convince my wife of that, please...
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@Stephen
You raise an incredibly important question (and the issue of "innocent babies" is also really relevant -- I didn't mean to dismiss it, so apologies for being flip; there are rabbinic discussions that go back a long way about that exact same question, so, as we say in Hebrew "baruch shekivanta" -- you deserve a blessing for having intuited it).
The bigger thing is that of Pharaoh's free will and the Passover story. Commentators have wrestled with it for a long time and one understanding is that, at a certain point, a person who has amassed so much evil to his name, loses certain rights to avoid punishment for that evil. So, yes, on one level, there is actually a loss of the freedom of choice. Not every commentator understands it as such and to many, it seems more than a bit unfair. And to that perception, other than citing articles of faith and belief and blah blah blah, I can't give a really good answer.
Sorry.
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@Stephen
You needn't be happy about any of it. I'll celebrate my survival because I really enjoy existing and stuff. If you want to be sad, have at it.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I tried to work on the ratio of holidays to heaven (yes, Jews believe in God and heaven) but I'm not really a math guy so then I tried using Roman numerals because thay are letters and not numbers but I am no good at long division. Good luck with your Friday fish.
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@FLRW
Thank you, I guess. The term usually is used as "congratulations" and is used for momentous occasions or achievements. But hey, sometimes just surviving is a noble fight.
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There are a variety of holidays and observances occurring at this time of year. I am in the midst of Passover (the intermediate days, between the holy-days at the beginning and end of Passover) and wanted to wish everyone here "happy whatever it is you find worth celebrating."
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@Polytheist-Witch
What I don't get is if God is the God of the Jews, and he managed to kill everyone but a couple of Jewish people with the flood, where did all the non-jewish people come from and why. And why did he even bother to let that happen or how could it have possibly happened.
A fair question. The way we understand it is that the notion of "Jew" doesn't enter the picture until way later. Noah was a monotheist because he had experience with God. He gets into his boat with his family. A year later, he gets out and gets drunk. Fathers a couple of kids.
Within a generation or two people start saying, "gosh that God guy is awesome...and he made the sun, so the sun is awesome. When we talk stuff about how cool God is, lets not forget the sun!" Soon after, people forget the first part because they can see the sun so they focus on it. Same with the moon and anything else that makes a daily appearance. The things that are effects and results become (in the mind of people who no longer see the cause) as causes themselves and therefore worthy of adoration.
People who need a physical representation of idea then make images that connect them with concepts and forces. Think how quickly people needed a golden calf.
As to why God would let that happen, that is tougher to communicate. That broaches on a conversation of free will and it might be beyond the scope of this thread.
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@Reece101
Could a cat "choose" not to follow instinct? Is part of the definition of instinct something about acting without making conscious choice?
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@FLRW
The problems I see here are
1. the expectation that God is "loving"
2. that the human definition of "loving" or "just" matters when trying to understand God's behavior
3. that foundational premise that the book of Job is definitively a factual and literal telling of an event depicting the actions and mind of God
4. that human "morality" is the same as a set of principles of right and wrong which would guide a divine being
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@Tradesecret
Hence, whereas Micah was hopeful Israel would once again turn to God in repentance - he also knew it would only be for a short term before they fail again. Jesus totally understood that - yet also wanted to bring a halt to that - even if it meant more pain in the short term.
Micha was looking towards a time when the change would NOT be for a short term but would be a permanent and new state of affairs. Is there any where in Micha 7 where you see a prophecy of a return to evil after repentance?
And why would Jesus then use the language of Micha which is about evil and recast it to be about a healing which comes about through the situation he creates?
I don't think Jesus is saying he is responsible for the undesirable state which clearly existed before he was born. Hence he must be saying something else. I see what you mean in that Jesus says he will turn family against itself. Yet I don't see how if the situation already existed, he must be accepting responsibility
But he uses the language "I have come to..." which means that it is his task to bring about a situation -- setting families against themselves. Saying that he has come to start something means it hasn't existed beforehand. And saying that setting the family against itself is a form of healing goes against the context of the Micha quote in which the family's being set against itself is a problem, not a part of the process of the solution.
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@Tradesecret
But isn't the quote in question, "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."' "
In that quote, the speaker (which I will assume to be Jesus according to the text) is saying that he is there to bring about the state of divided family. He has come to turn people against each other.
So unlike Micha's use, which was to be a sad commentary on an unfortunate and unwanted current state of affairs which would be resolved in the future by God, Jesus seems to be saying that he is responsible for creating this undesirable state - it is his goal.
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@Tradesecret
I understand what you are saying but it seems strange to invoke a statement about all the bad at the time of Micha (who then promises the people that God will, when they repent, swoop in a raise them up again) and use that text to describe what Jesus has brought. It is as if he is taking responsibility to the difficulties in his time. Instead of the state of disarray's being a problem, he views it as a desirable position for which is takes credit. That is what I don't understand.
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@Tradesecret
Micha is talking about what he is observing about his own time and the sadness of the situation that he witnesses. By the end of the chapter, he speaks of a future in which the people return to God and God to the people. I don't know why Jesus would quote this as a status he would try to bring about.
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@Dr.Franklin
I was off by 300 -- it should be 75,810
I'm assuming that those are rounded numbers (except for the 10 part). It would be statistically incredible if they actually killed an exact 75,800 people.
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@Dr.Franklin
the text describes them as foes and enemies, so, yes.
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In the story of Purim, as recorded in the scroll of Esther, it is explained that the people celebrated their military victory on the 14th of the month of Adar. But in the walled city of Shushan (the capital) the fighting continued for another day so the people there celebrated a day later.
As such, Purim is, today, in cities that have walls dating back to the time of Joshua, on the 15th of Shushan. That is today on this year's solar calendar. So to all in the affected cities, happy Shushan Purim
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This is just to say
I have eaten the Snickers bar
and the Peanut M+M's
but my Daughter gave away
the Oreos that I was
probably saving for dinner.
Now I will go pickup some
Mediterranean food from
Englewood.
So expensive but
so convenient.
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@whiteflame
I was recalling this morning how elaborate our groggers were growing up. I was young and, well, the louder, the better. I used everything from huge, traditional wooden ones to electronic toys. Now, I have less patience for the cacophony and cherish the quiet so, like any good old curmudgeon, I prefer megilla readings where there are a couple of half-hearted feet stomped once or twice and then we move on.
Many local synagogues encourage people to bring boxes of pasta and shake them, then donate them afterwards.
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@oromagi
Those are certainly two interesting sources...but hey, whatever works!
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Wishing you and yours a happy and a healthy Purim.
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