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@Polytheist-Witch
Feeding the hungry isn't socialism it happens here in America as well as other places that are capitalist.
Socialism isn't mutually exclusive to capitalism they just have goals which are not always compatible. Social security, emergency services, child labor laws, minimum wage these are all examples of social initiatives. Feeding the poor is also a social initiative.
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@Conway
You asked why people need to be employed and I explained why so I don't understand how that's a non-sequitur.
Yes but you did not justify employment only mediums of exchange. One does not necessitate the other.
You just claim that you are in the right to work the land. It's really that simple, but it would make sense to keep some proof in case anyone were to dispute you.
Sorry but I don't understand what is to keep your claim from being challenged.
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@zedvictor4
I would go so far as to say that any thinking on the subject is just an attempt to justify an emotional reaction with a post hoc rationalization to ones self.
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@Sum1hugme
I believe this is what marx called the reserve army of labor. Its an advantage businesses have in the struggle with the workers over the definition of a subsistence wage.
Well stated. Corperations hardly need more of an advantage considering the advantages their wealth grants them.
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@Conway
People need to be employed because they don't have land, or because they've only developed a specialized skillset for which they cannot survive of their own accord and nobody claims them as a dependent.
This seem like a non sequitur. All this means is that humans must cooperate in order to survive. That alone doesn't necessitate employment.
Lay a claim to land, work it, and build a cabin.Produce something valuable and exchange it for something else that retains value.
Lay claim how exactly? Sorry it seems like you are oversimplifying here.
If we stop accounting for more valuable resources then is necessary for survival then we've forfeited responsibility for our own well being.
What is more valuable than survival? And what about keeping an account of it becomes impossible without the concept of employment? What about value is undermined if we do not acknowledge the right of some boss to control the means of production and exploit our labor?
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@Greyparrot
Correct. It's the elite and wealthy DC lobbyists that select and elect their PR man, not the voters.
Nice to be in agreement for once
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@Greyparrot
The same base of endemic racism lead to slavery as lead to the pushback against the civil rights movement.
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@RationalMadman
A corporate entity isn't an entity. Individuals make it up including the founders of the company. The only difference is that LLCs have more direct interaction and codependency between those that invest in it and those that run it. Corporations have a board of directors and then a group of shareholders on the side. The board of directors are elected by the stockholders and generally have long-term profit as the main goal, as you said. The shareholders have say in the company and can use their investment of money and often will either have short-term profit in mind or perhaps a new design or way of going about the product in mind with how they use their influence.The board of directors can even cut out the apex CEO from the corporation if they perform badly enough, the shareholders merely can influence whenever the CEO holds a vote on something and asks the major shareholders to give input.
This is the system which exploits essential front line workers. The CEO is not just incentivized to make profit a priority over people but if he is not efficient enough at exploitation of resources (including people) then he can actually be removed and someone more willing/able to exploit resources will be installed in his place.
That said, you intentionally went for tobacco to avoid all the more useful industries.
Not the industry the corporations. Perhaps without the capitalist state some people would still want to use tobacco products and perhaps would be passionate enough about it to keep up production (the industry) but I doubt they would feel the need to lie to the public in order to continue providing their products if their lifestyle and future prosperity wasn't tied to unsustainable infinite growth (the corperations).
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@RationalMadman
There are owners of even massive corporations who thoroughly and passionately love the good/service they provide and put huge effort into it.
Do you think the owners of the big tobacco companies are passionate about and love the good/service they provide and put huge effort into it? I rather think they do. Swell bunch of fellows.
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@Intelligence_06
It is meant to lower unemployment rates. Roosevelt built dams because the country needs something to do and the people need jobs.
The idea of employment is what creates unemployment. Work needs to be done but I'm not sure why that means anyone needs to be employed. Do you honestly think if we don't pay one another we will stop doing what we must for the survival of the species?
The wealthy isn’t inherently evil, and they only are if they are exploiting the poor,
I am unaware of any other way to become truly wealthy.
fair wages
Is this a joke? No CEO is as necessary to the continued operation of a corporation as the frontline essential workers and yet universally their salaries are orders of magnitude larger. CEO wages are far from fair. Only by paying CEOs and other beugoisie a fair wage could employers possibly afford to pay everyone else a fair wage.
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@Intelligence_06
And when you are offered 456 billion Korean won for being good at children’s games, you get thrilled to participate.
I don't know that that would be true or at least I don't think the game would be the exciting part. Someone close to me likes big brother and will occasionally watch the program while I am visiting. Something strikes me about the show. The contestants do not seem to enjoy "playing" the "games" they are presented with as challenges and really don't seem to really enjoy the larger game either. Everyone is doing everything in the name of winning the cash prize... also I haven't watched squid games yet so please no spoilers.
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If I offered you a bite of a sandwich you might say "thank you I love sandwiches!" but if I offer you five dollars to take a bite of a sandwich you will probably think "well what's wrong with the sandwich?"
Capitalism makes work like a sandwich. No longer is it a dignified self determination of what one needs to do in order to subsist nor is it a labor of love that we are passionate about. I mean maybe sometimes it is but that is the exception not the rule.
Now work has become synonymous with employment and is used as both the carrot and the stick to keep the proletariat in line. This has resulted in useless jobs and unnecessary components of jobs being common place and also to a necessary amount of unemployed individuals.
That's right unemployment is not a bug of capitalism but a feature. Without a steady supply of unemployed workers to draw on the work force might be able to negotiate from a position of strength. These scab workers are necessary to keep the wealthy in power.
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@Greyparrot
So you support voluntary compliance with law authorities? If a rapist doesn't feel like getting arrested it should be a viable option?
How do these law authorities know who is and isnot a rapist just by looking at them? Because you never did answer me.
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@zedvictor4
What does this say about the competence of the American voter?
Who becomes president does not reflect the average American voter at all but instead reflects the nepotism and cronyism inherent in the electoral college system.
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@Greyparrot
It's probs nothing to do with slavery or very little.
Slavery is part of the same ugly weed as the systemically oppressive policies introduced as a direct response from racists then in power to the civil rights movement. The base issue is viewing other humans as lesser or as dangerous or perhaps worst of all just not even human.
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@bmdrocks21
I agree that not all things are equal. It just seems that I am open to more factors causing said equality than you, and hence the perceived weighting of each reason is different.
If you believe that the reason is one "races" "superior genes" then, not to beat a dead horse but that would be racist by definition. I am not trying to put words in your mouth I'm just being very clear about what I think is racism so that we can avoid confusion. I cannot make you racist by my definition only you can and only by fitting that definition.
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@bmdrocks21
So, in other words, anecdotal evidence.
It is a fact that the rich are often shielded from the consequences of their wrongdoings by their wealth. Do you dispute this?
Do I think genetics on average differ by race? Yes, that's hardly controversial.
There is not enough difference in allele frequency to make the distinction between races. There us only one race. The human race. A white European descended person may easily bear more genetic similarities to any given person of color chosen at random than any given white person chosen at random. Your argument is scientifically fallacious.
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@bmdrocks21
To what degree are White people at fault for the failings of Black people?
There is a lot to unpack here. First of all there is no "faults of black people". All people have flaws. This is unconnected with any ethnicity. Secondly it is misleading to say the "fault of white people" when what you actually mean is wealthy land owners who happen to be predominantly white. And lastly yeah the wealthy have far more agency than the poor. The world is what the one percent have made it.
Would their crime rates and incomes be identical without slavery and segregation?
Well there are many other forms of racism besides these and many are more subtle and insidious but yeah all things being equal we would expect all things to be equal. If all things are not equal then all things must not be equal.
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@bmdrocks21
If the problem is poverty, then you'd expect maybe theft to be at a higher rate. But why do blacks rape more people per capita? What about having less money makes you more inclined to rape? That doesn't make any coherent sense.
Sorry but you mean conviction rates right? Because incidents of rape in the wealthy and powerful are coming to light in record numbers where before they simply went uninvestigated.
Typical of a lib to just offhandedly call any naysayer a racist to try to discredit them while parroting the status quo talking points, though.
I did not call you a racist. I said if you think ethnicity makes you more or less inclined to criminality that would by definition be racist. Is that what you believe or not?
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@bmdrocks21
Yes, because human agency inside said communities cannot ever explain it, right?
The poor have little agency compared with the wealthy. The world is what the one percent have made it.
But let's humor you for a moment. The alternative is what? That people of color are just intrinsically more inclined to criminality than whites? I hate to belabor the obvious but that is a racist attitude to hold so I hope that isn't what you are saying. I hope you aren't just a blatant racist.
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@bmdrocks21
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps high-crime neighborhoods are disproportionately targeted by police?
You mean high poverty areas? Yes it has. In fact I accept that as an axiom. That is precisely why it is indicative of systemic racism that so many such communities are black communities.
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@bmdrocks21
I'd bet that the number of crimes committed is way higher per conviction in black communities than others because of "no snitching" and jury nullification.
The numbers do not back this up. Quite the opposite in fact as predominantly black communities are disproportionally targeted by police.
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What if the reason has nothing to do with race?
It almost certainly doesn't since there isnot enough genetic differences to actually constitute a seperate race.
It's obviously a cultural thing, and not a race thing.
Bingo. It is the way our culture treats people of color.
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@Greyparrot
No, counting dead bodies. Police aren't even involved in this. It's a coroner statistic.
IF you are counting bodies THEN you are not counting murderers. Your argument just fell apart.
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@Greyparrot
Getting convicted at four times the rate you mean? Probably that a person of color is in general four times as likely to be convicted of a crime.
Just for a moment though let's humor you. The alternative is what? That people of color are inherently more violent? I hate to belabor the obvious but that is a racist attitude to hold so I hope that isn't what you are saying. I hope you aren't just a blatant racist.
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@Greyparrot
I'm sorry is this all people killed or only rates of murder conviction? Remember when I said people of color are disproportionally convicted of crime? That.
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@bmdrocks21
Does poverty make men commit more crime?
At the very least it makes you far more likely to be convicted for crimes. No expensive lawyers or connections.
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If the reason isn't "poverty" what is the reason for this FACT?
Poverty is the deciding factor here. I don't think you are actually paying attention.
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@bmdrocks21
Do me a favor, figure out per capita murder rates....
Would you care to figure that by economic class? If you do I don't think you will see much difference between people of color and other ethnic groups. You may however see a difference in conviction rates as people of color are disproportionally convicted.
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@bmdrocks21
Or look at average behavior and understand that the difference is logical, as with gender.....
Average behavior? Of whom exactly? Of the poverty ridden?
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@Greyparrot
How is poverty causing 9300 blacks to be killed by other blacks?
Do us a favor love? Look up what the percentage of white on white murder is and see if most whites are not murdered by whites? This is hardly surprising. Most murder victims are murdered by someone they know and our society is actually pretty segregated by the aforementioned systemic racism.
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Statistically speaking people of color are given fewer promotions, have lower starting salaries and get lower raises than their white counterparts. They receive fewer loans even within the same economic brackets. Resumes with "white sounding" names consistently get more call backs than "black sounding" names.
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@Greyparrot
Poor people do get convicted of more crime and people of color are disproportionally affected by poverty. I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. Your numbers support this.
As for murder specifically most white people who are murdered are murdered by white people. Most Chinese Americans by Chinese Americans and so on. Statistically speaking you are murdered by someone of your ethnicity.
Why not come up with some useful numbers like how many people of color are killed by white police versus white non police? Remember when I said that statistically murderers murder within the same ethnicity? The exception is the police who mostly kill people of color and who also rarely are convicted of murder for it.
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@Greyparrot
Honestly I don't know what your position is, you obviously know Blacks commit a huge disproportional amount of crime, especially murders. You've seen the numbers.
No sir. I obviously know that the poor and desperate are convicted of crimes at a far higher rate than the wealthy and I also know that people of color are disproportionally affected by poverty. Indeed in those circumstances what do you expect the statistics to look like? I would expect this systemic oppression to result in exactly the numbers you are reporting. You are actually making my case. All things being equal we would equal numbers of poor, median income and wealthy families in each possible demographic. If this is not what we see then all things are not equal.
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@Greyparrot
I cant find anything what you asked for because they are not related.
I asked for the number of people of color who were killed by police compared with white people adjusted by population. If you cannot find this information then you don't actually have a case.
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@zedvictor4
A fully waxing moon. It got me thinking.Determinism me thinks.
Well stated
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@Greyparrot
This is also not what I asked for.
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@Greyparrot
This is not what I have asked for.
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What point do you want data and stats on?
The number of people of color killed by police versus the number of white victims adjusted by population.
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@Greyparrot
I can back everything up.
Ok... we are waiting.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Stop making bare assertions.....
When they start using logical fallacies you know they have no adequate argument
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@Greyparrot
They wouldn't need to be protected if they were not being oppressed by the system which prioritizes the majority white straight male christian population.
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@949havoc
I don't believe in any god(s) any more than I believe in free will.
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@Greyparrot
Citation needed... also you are going to have to be more specific about what you mean by top of the pack.
In any case whatever small group you are referencing doesn't change the reality of systematic oppression for women, the LGBTQ community, minority religious practitioners and people of color (just to name a few)
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@949havoc
Full moons happen every twenty eight days. They are predictable. That our callender is not always in keeping with that twenty eight day cycle does not in any way contraband determinism. You are grasping at straws. I understand. I too would like to believe in free will but it is logically incoherent. Tje universe we observe doesn't have room for free will.
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@Greyparrot
No one is rewarded for bad behavior except the rich. The poor, especially people of color, are incarcerated disproportionally and receive harsher sentencing for the same crimes. Also having children "out of wedlock" and taking drugs are not in and of themselves immoral. Abstinence only sex education and zero tolerance drug policies cause far more social harm than either.
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@Greyparrot
And some cultural neighborhoods are FAR more likely to commit crimes than others. If you would like to know the difference, visit various ghettos all over America.
You mean the systematically oppressed who are disproportionately targeted by the law and the police? I agree that they are convicted at a higher rate than those who make up the more privileged classes but I remain unconvinced that they commit more crime. Certainly nobody commits crimes against humanity like the one percent.
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@RationalMadman
Perhaps some individuals care. Corperations do not. A corperate entity is an organization and the function of the organization is profit. Perhaps the owners care and perhaps they make an effort to serve their customers but they won't serve them for free.
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@Dr.Franklin
hard disagree, there are millionaires who are "workers" at massive corporations while the "owners" of a business makes less money
Citation needed
massive corporations dont care
Incorrect. All corperations care about the same thing. It just isn't people, it's profit.
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