secularmerlin's avatar

secularmerlin

A member since

3
3
3

Total posts: 7,093

Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
You cannot, in all your marxism, take that away from me, 
I'm not trying to take anything from anyone so long as they didn't get it through human exploitation. I don't want your car or your tv and I don't want to take you ambition or your goal oriented attitude. What I want is to give the means of production to everyone. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
It doesn't matter what hypothetical situation you come up with. It doesn't matter if we are talking about humans or gods or ghosts or aliens. It doesn't matter if we are talking about the natural or the supernatural. It doesn't matter if there was a beginning or if there exists an infinite regress. Every conceivable person, thing and force including your behavior is either caused (not free) or uncaused (not subject to will).
Created:
2
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
he'd have generated a business plan to present to a bank, or the SBA, for a loan.
Imagine if the same opportunity were presented to everyone not just the Jeffs of the world.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
It is silly to think that we shouldn't pursue the idea of ending employment because it might make the world dirty. Capitalism combined with industry has lead to a far dirtier world than ever before because creating pollution is profitable. You seem to fear what had already happened under the system you endorse.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Thug Culture.
-->
@949havoc
The glaring problem with that theory is that guns are not the number one weapon of use. Knives, for example, far exceed gun violence. Further, ban guns, knife use will increase, and further banning levels is a slippery slope until we're down to banning thumbs, which also can kill maliciously. Now you're talking mutilation as a legal response to thuggery. By your argument, the natural end-game is lombotomy, because there is the true source of thuggery, not the gun, nor any other tool used as weapon.
What kind of argument is this? If you try to protect people you might have to hurt them? Did you even read this before sending it?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
somebody else didn't have the idea,
We do not know that. We only know he capitalized on the idea in a way that made him wealthy. His success would have been impossible without a loan from his  parents. Imagine if everyone was equally able to innovate even if they are not from a wealthy background. Imagine the art poetry and technology we might now have if every mad bastard was allowed to follow their dreams!
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Then why, pray tell, did we arrive at the billiard table of declaration that the universe was geocentric, a belief of laws of physics, applied to billiards, by the way, in antiquity, whereas, Galileo demonstrated it was not in the 17th century, but was placed under house arrest for his theory, and we held the theory of geocentrism until mid 19th century? Hmmm? Determinism failure, as I have previously argued without successful rebuttal.
I am genuinely not sure what your point is here. If the earth were the center of the universe (even though we eventually realized that it isn't) that would still either be caused (and so not free) or uncaused (and so not from a will).

I feel like we are talking past each other so let me try again. It doesn't matter what hypothetical situation you come up with. It doesn't matter if we are talking about humans or gods or ghosts or aliens. It doesn't matter if we are talking about the natural or the supernatural. It doesn't matter if there was a beginning or if there exists an infinite regress. Every conceivable person, thing and force including your behavior is either caused (not free) or uncaused (not subject to will).
Created:
2
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
Government grants and military technology has provided most of the technology used by the current internet moguls. Jeff Bazos didn't invent computers or the internet. He had the idea to sell books on the internet using computers. This was not a worthless idea but it was not a billion dollar idea or one that no one else could have come up with. Billionaires are not special they are rich.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
Great! So all my needs are met. I get to do all the things I love doing. And you will be stuck doing the dirty work that I don't want to do. Maybe this isn't such a bad plan after all.
This is what employment has done to us. We think we cannot even justify taking care of ourselves. This is what I mean. When you think of dirty work as undesirable instead of just another necessary chore. Social interaction would still exist and your social standing would be in the toilet if you refuse to help clean the toilets. I think you underestimate how powerful social pressure can be. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
I argue that there is no determinism
This is patently absurd. That physical matter behaves deterministically is easily observable play billiards to see it in action. Whether any nondetermined thing happens or not determinism is all around us.

Also, and I hate to beat a dead horse but, it doesn't even matter. Let's say the universe expands and contracts. Let's say some god(s) preside over this cycle (you have presented no evidence that this is the case but for the sake of argument) this cycle and the god(s) still all EITHER behave deterministically OR their behavior is indistinguishable from random which leaves no room for freewill. 

It doesn't matter if there are any god(s). It doesn't matter if there was a big bang. It doesn't matter if some events are random. Freewill is logically incoherent. No supernatural event or mix of caused and uncaused could or would change that.

Either caused (and so not free) or uncaused (and so not from a will). Every imaginable event must fit into one of these two camps and there is no room for freewill in either camp.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
I don't care about my reputation. What do I need that for? All my fulfillment comes from my pursuit of music and knowledge. I don't care what people say or think about me. And I'm still not going to pump any sewage. Now what?
Now no one will respect you or treat you like an adult. That is what we will do. It is how we treat those with this attitude now. Is it so strange to think that I'm ok with shaming people who refuse to grow up but I don't think they deserve a death sentence by slow starvation for refusing to grow up?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@BigPimpDaddy
What happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...

You can grow up and do your share too.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
No, I don't want to. All my needs are met so I'm going to spend my time playing music and reading books. I'm not going to pump any sewage. What are you going to do about it?
What are you going to do about it? Don't you shame people who don't want to work now? People that live off their families or the government? You don't respect those people now and you still wouldn't. What would change is that it really would be up to them rather than coercion. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
Are you saying that you are to good to do that kind of work?
No.
Then grow up and do your share of the dishes.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
In this analogy, you don't know the contents of your sandwich.  However, with jobs, people know what a job entails much more than they know whether or not a sandwich is poisoned so they pick the hard jobs to get paid the most.
If this analogy were true to life then there are not enough sandwiches to go around by design and if you refuse to eat a sandwich (or if you are not offered one) you will starve to death. You do not have a choice. You cannot refuse whatever sandwich happens to be available and not just for fear of starvation but because of the social stigma that goes along with not having a sandwich. People will call you selfish and lazy if you don't have a sandwich even if you try to eat a sandwich and none are available. It is considered your fault that no one offered you a sandwich even though as I said there are not enough sandwiches for everyone by design. 

If someone offers you $5 to eat one of your sandwiches, you have an incentive to make more sandwiches, feeding more people, and getting yourself rich in the process.
This is not the case for most people. Most people are expected to make sandwiches all day long as fast as they can and are played the same tiny fraction of the total profit even if they do somehow manage to push their bodies past their ordinary limits and produce more sandwiches than their quota.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
And what happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...

 Are you saying that you are to good to do that kind of work?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
When I was a bachelor, the answer would be yes. I would let many tasks go undone for far too long. And there are many households where this is the case because nobody wants to do it. Are you suggesting these things get done in every household on a regular basis?
I'm suggesting that they should be and that in a well organized house they are. We must simply see the nation as our home and other Citizens as family and organize our home in order to care for our family. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
This guy should be executed for murder
-->
@TheUnderdog
The best way to prevent crimes is to have the death penalty for all crimes by the most painful way possible and to advertise this so people are scared of doing crimes.
The very best way to prevent crime would be to immediately execute every human BEFORE they can commit a crime but that us not in keeping with my goal of human wellbeing. I am even concerned with the wellbeing of murderers. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
This guy should be executed for murder
-->
@TheUnderdog
pay for the harm they caused to others.
Unimportant when measured against preventing future harm. If the best way to prevent future crime were to have no consequences (which I don't believe I'm just making a point) then that is what I would be in favor of. I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with revenge. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
I obviously succeeded in messing with your head when I said there is both cause and non-cause in the universe
No it actually doesn't matter. No clever mixed determinism (not free) and random (not will) adds up to free will.
Created:
2
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
So what happens when no one wants to do it?
What happens at your house when no one feels like doing dishes? Cooking? Mowing the lawn? Cleaning the bathroom? Do these things simply go undone because they are unpleasant and no one is being paid to do it?
Created:
0
Posted in:
This guy should be executed for murder
-->
@TheUnderdog
So will prisoners be mooching off the government for their sentence?
At the moment it is actually privatized prisons that both "mooch of the government" and profit from the slave labor provided by prisoners. 
I don't want prisons taking a single tax dollar because prisoners serve no benefit to society whatsoever under our current laws.  They are parasites to the government; they don't produce anything and prisoners just take without paying back to society.
Funny I think you just described CEOs, land lords and bankers here too.
Enslaving them is how they can pay their debt to society
What debt? I don't care about fair. I don't care if they "pay for what they did". I just want to prevent future crime and our current system does the opposite. 
It's unfair to the victims; it's unfair to the taxpayer, and prison labor is something that should exist.
I don't care I don't care and we have laws against cruel and unusual punishment which I believe slavery qualifies for.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Why I think I have become a supporter of Roe V Wade
-->
@TheUnderdog
I'm not advocating for mandatory vastectomies, although I want one for me personally.  I'm saying that mandatory vastectomies to save children from dying is less tyranical than mandatory childbirth to save children from dying.

I don't know how the sperm would be lost in every location.  It might disappear in a few locations, but definitely not all of them.  People that are worried about it can freeze their sperm in multiple sperm banks if they don't want all of their sperm to get lost.
Thank you. That clears your position up. I understand now.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
I assume you have a solution worked out for when nobody wants to pump septic tanks.
I'm not suggesting that all work end and I'm not sure why everyone assumes that is what I mean. Work is necessary to our survival. It is employment that is unnecessary. It is employment that makes work like a sandwich.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Either your "choices" are DETERMINISTIC or they are not choices they are just random things you are doing for NO REASON.

Which is it? Do you have a reason for the way you behave (a cause) or do you just do things for no reason (not actually making decisions at all)

Just figure out which it is and I'll let you know why it isn't freewill. 
Created:
1
Posted in:
Minimum wage
-->
@Athias
Except "necessity" is not determined by your concept 
It is not. It is determined by the minimum necessary functions needed to operate the buisness and the physical limits of the human body.
The minimum-wage is NOT a "living wage." It's a politically contrived interference in the labor market.
Well the least an employer should pay is a living wage and if employers could be counted upon to do so then there would be no need for a minimum wage.
a State CANNOT be Capitalistic
A state in which profit dictates executive policy is a capitalist state. That is definitionally true. I observe such a state in the united states.
Our current State is not Capitalist; our current State is quasi-communist.
Our state is violently opposed to communism and socialism. Think the McCarthy trials and our interference in south America. In fact our state gas a huge vested interest in falsely conflating communism and socialism with totalitarianism and fascism. 
Resources are never voluntarily given under capitalism.
This isn't even a little bit true.
Giving things freely to the community is socialist by definition. Selling things to the community is capitalist.
Voluntary is not mutually exclusive from paid exchange.
It most certainly is. If you are only doing something for payment then it is not volunteer work it is wage work. The same goes for the exchange of goods. You can give someone a gift voluntarily or you can sell someone something for a profit. If you are getting caught up on the semantics the word voluntary then just remember that a volunteer worker is one who is not being paid. Perhaps you actually meant uncoerced. If so I'm not actually sure I agree with that either. The money is the form the coercion takes.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Industrialization made the world more wealthy than ever before
-->
@Dr.Franklin
professors in college can make more than small business owners
Theoretically. I'm not sure what your point is though. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Thug Culture.
-->
@RationalMadman
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic but thanks.
No sarcasm. Good post. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
- Says that nature can't be determined and predicted because blue moons happen sometimes

- Goes on to describe how blue moons can be predicted centuries in advance with basic grade school math
Well to be fair the poster had no choice. It was determined they would do so by previously existing conditions. 
Created:
3
Posted in:
Thug Culture.
-->
@RationalMadman
Wow. Just wow. That was well thought out and cogent. It offers real solutions and a plan of action that prioritizes efficacy over grandstanding. Very well stated.
Created:
1
Posted in:
when will jesus return?
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Again it's just atheists stealing the story of Jesus
Not sure what this means. I don't even know with certainty that there was a jesus and definitely don't believe he was a supernatural figure. I am only examining the story as reported in the bible. The fictional character described therein encourages social programs. If you don't consider that political that's just fine but it is still socialist. I'm ok with you describing socialism as anti political. It is certainly anti hierarchical and so by extension anti government. 
Created:
2
Posted in:
Thug Culture.
Every generation has taken issue with the manners and conduct of the generation after even though they went through the same judgements with the generation before them. 

Each progressive generation considers itself smarter than the last and wiser than the next.

In short "Kids... what can you do?"
Created:
3
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
Syllogisms make it very difficult to vaguely beat at the bush. 
Here is a couple syllogisms 

IF caused THEN not free

IF uncaused THEN not by will.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@Ramshutu
@949havoc
For free will to exist - one electron. One molecule. One electric pulse, must not follow the natural rules of the universe, and must instead be affected by something that doesn’t itself follow any of the natural rules of the universe.
From whence comes that "logic?" Sorry, hot air to fill your wish balloon. keep blowing.
I agree. This wouldn't solve for freewill 
This "not natural" thing would still either be caused or random and so still logically incoherent with freewill. 
Created:
1
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
So, why does the universe not influence each entity in the same way such that our actions produced are identical to one another? 
Drop two ping pong balls down a pachinko board. Did they go the same way? No? Funny that. Ping pong balls must have free will.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
That fails to answer the specific question 
The government is responsible for creating spaceflight computers and plastics. In general corperations don't invent products they only think of new applications which is not a sevice without value but it certainly isn't a billion dollar value. 
The supplier of raw materials is a contracted supply chain,
Who do you think runs and maintains the supply chain? Have you ever seen a CEO working as a deckhand? A pilot? A forklift operator? No the workers maintain the supply chain. If the CEO doesn't show up to work today the supply lines keep going if the workers don't show up everything stops. 
Workers, ie, direct labor, i.e., the proletariate, do not fill any of those functions, they are indirect labor. 
Who does indirect labor if not the workers? You seem to be making a distinction with no difference. Please justify your hairsplitting.
Pay is paid by the payroll department,
I hate to be a stickler but where does the money come from that payroll distributes? If you answered from the customers you are correct. On a side not payroll departments are run by workers too.
This has resulted in useless jobs and unnecessary components of jobs being common place and also to a necessary amount of unemployed individuals. 
Seems its a hot button for you. Just sayin' 
It should be a hot button for everyone including the one percent. This waste of labor and potential is detrimental to society as a whole. If this is the best capitalism cam do I remain unimpressed. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
For free will to exist - one electron. One molecule. One electric pulse, must not follow the natural rules of the universe, and must instead be affected by something that doesn’t itself follow any of the natural rules of the universe.
IF we could discover and understand the rules by which this mysterious process functions would it not then be part of the natural world? AND as 3ru7al pointed out it hardly matters because even this notnatural thing is either caused or random or some mix of the two. In none of these cases does the road lead to the mythical magical freewill. 
Created:
1
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@3RU7AL
Even a god a ghost a fairy or an angel (EITHER) acts as the result of previous influence (OR) acts randomly

Physical or not.

Supernatural or natural.

It makes no difference.

Actions are (EITHER) influenced (OR) not-influenced
Well stated 
Created:
1
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
I offer you a prime rib sandwich, but you'll take the bozone baloney, thanks. Your choice. Or, blame the universe again. Sorry about the taste quality of your universe. I'll take my prime rib. 
This more or less ignores the actual issue which I am addressing here which is that the system of employer/employee is an unnecessary system which does not prioritize human wellbeing and compels many people to work long hours doing dirty, difficult, unnecessary and or unfulfilling jobs. Whether any of these states applies to you or I is immaterial. It is still a real problem. The problem of threatening not to give someone a sandwich at all and to let them instead starve to death watching you eat your prime rib because they are unwilling or unable to play along with the system of consumerism demanded by our corporate overlords is a seperate issue.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
Who designed the sandwich?
From whence came the raw materials,
The workers. 
Who developed the marketing plan
Everyone needs sandwiches. You don't have to convince anyone who cares about themselves to eat a sandwich. 
Who produced the sandwich?
The workers
Who is selling the sandwich? Who is coordinating payment? Who is guaranteeing the sandwich's satisfaction? Who will follow-up on the customer's reaction? 
The workers
The workers 
The workers
Who is paying all those who contributed to the sandwich's design through payroll efforts? 
The customers most of whom are workers. They even pay the owners, CEOs etc.
If you're bored by your job, 
This is not the fundamental issue. 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
Who designed the sandwich? 
Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Haven't I already told you that one? I have. Try it, yourself. Some things only come by personal proof. If you need better evidence, hire a lawyer. You pay one, they'll do anything, and you'll agree with their result because.... you paid for it.
How do I tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience and a very realistic fantasy? Please define the parameters of the experiment. How do we create a double blind if my sample size is only myself? What you are describing sounds like anecdotal evidence which is scientifically speaking one of the least reliable sort.
Created:
2
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
-->
@949havoc
He, and you, entirely miss the point. 
I welcome you to elaborate.

Created:
0
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Since you doubt, you have already violated that process.
What a convenient sheild against self reflection you have but I am not much impressed with the no true scotsman fallacy 
Created:
2
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
Hint. If you felt it in your brain then it was physical... because your brain is a physical organ.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
I know because it happens outside of physical experience, 
What does this even mean? How would you ever demonstrate something nonphysical? That sounds synonymous with made up. Imaginary. How do I as an outsider tell the difference between your real spiritual experience and an one you imagined?
Created:
2
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Personal revelation via prayer - complete thought process involving no physical attributes of sensory ability
How do you know you had one if you didn't experience it? I'm skeptical that anyone has had one that does think they e experienced one though clearly they experienced something. This is a non starter.
. It is pure spiritual connect to the Divine.
I don't believe in spiritual anything other than measured in alchohol by volume nor in any divinity other than the desert. You couldn't demonstrate any could you?
Determinism =/= free will 

Random acts =/= free will
I am waiting for evidence. Go.
This is tautological. It is true in the same way that there are no married bachelors or four sided triangles. Determinism is incompatible with free and random events ate incompatible with will.

If an event is determined then it was never free to happen any other way and if it is a random event then no decision or determination is being made random stuff is just happening. 
Created:
4
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
You have offered all but the most pertinent activity; the decision process, alone, once the review of all factors considered is complete, and which certainly has physical, measurable attributes, but the measure of those attributes does not include an exact measure of the processes' resulting action, else one would not be able to display a repeated experience-stimulation with a varied pattern of resulting action, which humans demonstrate all the time. And, the fact is, by those measurement techniques, the data collected, alone, does not indicate with any accuracy what decisive action will be rendered. The physical, organic process you outline simple does not include an outline of the decision made; that must wait for observation of  the individual's action. We can measure that thinking/decision processes are in play, but not the decision, itself.
Every decision is either caused (determinism) or uncaused (indistinguishable from random)

Determinism =/= free will 

Random acts =/= free will
Created:
4
Posted in:
Blue moon, and the failure of determinism
-->
@949havoc
Knowledge gained without experience. 
Even reading an article or listening to a lecture is an experience. Perhaps you could give an example of  a gaining knowledge without experiencing any sensory perceptions. 
Created:
4
Posted in:
Work is like a sandwich
That's probably because I was answering a question as to why people need to be employed, not trying to justify employment.  
What's the difference? If employment cannot even be justified you can hardly claim that it is necessary. On what grounds do you engage in this hair splitting?
Well a claim might be challenged by another claim or it might not.  It seems obvious that challenging a claim is a matter of discretion.  
How is the dispute settled then? Might makes right?
Created:
0