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@Fruit_Inspector
The revolution is an ideological one.
This happens with each successive generation.
How familiar are you with CRT?
I am familiar with it in the same way someone who knows algebra is familiar with calculus why?
That is why there is a need of critical race theory to he taught at the college level...Why is there a need?
If we do not remember the mistakes of the past we are destined to repeat them.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Asymmetry in the production of matter and anti matter particles in the early moments of the universe.That seems to assume though that matter and antimatter already existed. Without the use of speculation, where did matter and antimatter come from?
I said the production of matter and anti matter. That rather implies the opposite of preexisting.
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@Fruit_Inspector
could you explain where matter came from without any use of speculation?
Asymmetry in the production of matter and anti matter particles in the early moments of the universe.
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@n8nrgmi
Light speed us relative to the observer. This is counterintuitive but true.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Critical Race Theory is a great example. At least, the practical application of it at a policy level.
Critical race theory is almost never considered in policy creation or application. That is why there is a need of critical race theory to he taught at the college level though it will never be taught in public schools owing mostly to the extremely advanced nature of the course. In other words no one will be given a course in critical race theory that has not already chosen to devote considerable study of race relations in American history.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Well if you're an American and you voted Democrat, then you are putting these types of revolutionaries in office. It's not just an intellectual exercise anymore to think about whether a Marxist-like revolution would be a net benefit to society. We're living it out.
The two party system maintains the status quo regardless of personal voting preferences. The "freedom" of representatives democracy is an illusion. As for a revolution there is no revolution and if there were you would know .
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@bmdrocks21
If you can provide facts showing that rich people are shielded from consequences for crimes (obviously, they are shielded from crimes resulting in fines) that require jail time, then I'd be happy to look at that and make an assessment based on the facts provided.
They can afford the best lawyers and have connections and resources unavailable to the poor. Surely you ate not so obtuse that you do not realize that this shields them from the consequences of their wrongdoings in a way that the rest of us could hardly imagine.
You can break it down to be more specific. It depends on how specific you want to be with "race" categories. They can trace your origins to where your ancestors lived geographically. Geographic locations are highly correlated with skin color.
Any claim that this has any measurable difference on behavior or capabilities is bad science.
I'm not calling any one set of genes better than another. Some genes make people better at certain things and worse at others. Based on the Olympics and US sports leagues, you can make assumptions about superiority at sports for different races. That doesn't seem to be a controversial claim. But whenever it has to do with... let's say genes related to delayed gratification or even average brain mass, then we start having issues. I think that people from different geographic locations have different genes on average and that those genes lead to a higher likelihood of certain outcomes.
Any claim that this has any measurable difference on behavior or capabilities is bad science.
Also, I (non-controversially) think that people from different geographic locations have different races. (Ex. before colonialization of Africa or the North African slave trade, you would be hard-pressed to find a White person on the continent)
There is only one race. The human race.
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@949havoc
Before I tell you, you're going to have to demonstrate to me that ping pong balls have any intelligence to properly make a choice
Directly after you prove the same about individual electrons in your cerebellum. Also and not to beat a dead horse but it doesn't matter because intelligence is EITHER deterministic (not free) OR uncaused (not by will)
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@Conway
Whoever uses the land and doesn't leave is settled on it. It may happen that one or none or all relevant parties use the land and continue to dispute the claim.
So they share the land as commonwealth? In that case no one owns the land they can only ever use it... unless they are willing to resort to violence to uphold the right to private ownership of land.
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For elaboration on substantial difference between the terms, you could see the top of post #81. Definitions are provided.
Your saying that the guard must necessarily use his gun in self defense but that his actions are not justified? If I were trying the case I would ask you which one you actually mean. Not all things that can be justified are necessary but necessarily all things that are necessary must also be justified. I don't get the disconnect here.
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@Fruit_Inspector
You are the revolutionary who wants to completely upheave society as we know it.
Oh no absolutely not. I am far too comfortable and selfishly hope the status quo is maintained until my death. That doesn't make me a good person or a good revolutionary but it would take a revolution to change things and exploitation is likely to be included in the new model anyway. At any rate historically speaking exploitation is a far more likely model for humans to adopt than egalitarianism.
On an intellectual level, I can appreciate you seeking a society that is focused on the wellbeing of humanity.
Well that's all this is under the circumstance of compulsory acquiescence to participate in capitalism and the implicit acceptance of the suffering of my fellow humans that I find myself in. Do you know I ruin at least a gallon of potable water a day just washing and relieving myself? Something the most ruthless dessert warlord or third world dictator would be appalled by the evil of. It is just how I am expected to live. How the monkeys who came before lived.
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@Dr.Franklin
no, you CAN pay your workers fair and turn a profit
As an owner what have you done to deserve a profit? What have your employees done to deserve their salary? If one or the other were removed from the equation you or your employees which would more likely result in the productivity to stop immediately?
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@zedvictor4
Without hierarchy, nothing would get done.
Bald assertion
I do not know this and even if it is true it doesn't mean there is not value in promoting social programs over profit. Do not let the impossible perfect prevent the possibility of improving.
All moral arguments are pleas to emotion. I value humans on a gut level and would now like to plead with you to feel the same.
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@949havoc
Drop two pingpong balls down a pachinko board and tell me the mechanism by which they choose different paths even under "identical" starting positions? Now imagine that neural signals run on the movements of electrons between neuro receptors. Now electrons are like ping pong balls. Your thoughts falling down the track as they will but not under your conscious control. You will think what you will think. Try as you may to stop. Trying not to think about something only brings it more to mind. Maybe these movements of electrons are caused (not free) or maybe they are uncaused (not by will) but either way they move as they will either immutable by the laws of physics or unprompted and outside our control for no reason whatsoever or it is partially caused (neither completely unfettered nor guided with the certainty of will). You can decide which you think is the most likely and that option will not be freewill. None of these options leads to unfettered choice.
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@Conway
One can both justify something that you consider unnecessary, and consider something necessary which you cannot justify.
Then I'm not sure we are using the words in the same way. For me something necessary is defacto justified by virtue of its necessity.
Then the dispute wouldn't be settled by either party.
So who gets to settle on the land then?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Well so far, we seem to have a system where people go to work so that they can earn respect
Not exactly. Everyone should get respect and their basic necessities. Really I think you are making this more complicated than it has to be. I seriously doubt we would not do the work we must for the species to survive. Survival is actually what we are working for. Survival and the betterment of the human condition.
As long as humans are involved, you will always have greed and exploitation.
I fear you are right but I don't think that means we shouldn't strive to improve.
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If employment cannot even be justified you can hardly claim that it is necessary.I had kind of a difficult time relating to this statement.
That something were necessary would be a justification. Something you cannot even justify having happen is defacto unnecessary.
A dispute could be settled through concession or if the relevant parties decide to compromise, coming to an agreement. It might be nullified if the claimant just up and left.
And what if neither party is willing to concede or compromise?
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@Fruit_Inspector
I'm actually working this out as I go and you are helping. You are not guaranteed anything you don't strictly need for survival and especially if you refuse to do work that benefits others.
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@Greyparrot
What exactly do you mean by thug? What is a thug in the context of this conversation?
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@Dr.Franklin
You cant just divide the economy into workers and owners
I didn't. It is just the way things are. Some people sell their labor and some people own things that generate profits (generally through the efforts of those who sell their labor). The amount of profits generated is immaterial. Ownership of the means of production is not the production. Whether a small business owner or a CEO you can only turn a profit by exploiting the workers.
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@Fruit_Inspector
You still have to figure out the logical inconsistency of how we can distribute resources "based primarily upon your need" but also based on "how hard you work and what kind of work" you do. (See your post #70)
It is need that determines who gets what first. You don't need your passion projects though. To gain the respect necessary to get additional resources you will have to prove you care about more than just yourself. I guess work isn't really involved at all except that working for the common good especially doing dirty, unpleasant and difficult work is a good way to prove you care. I think your humanitarianism is what should get you extras. So the opposite of the capitalist system where only greed is rewarded. If you stop thinking about only yourself we can talk about this passion project.
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@Fruit_Inspector
what of people that cant work (disabled, etc)Do you mean in secularmerlin's fantasy land, or in the real world?
Well let's see. In the real world the disabled and the mentally I'll often end up homeless or mistreated for lack of funds. They are unable to work as efficiently and so ate less profitable to exploit and so are often seen as less valuable by the wealthy one percent that set executive policy
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@Fruit_Inspector
And the harder you work, the greater your "need."
This does not logically follow.
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@BigPimpDaddy
what of people that cant work (disabled, etc)
To each by their need.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So just to be clear, the amount of resources I get is based on how hard I work and the type of work I am willing to do.
No. It is based primarily upon your need... but how hard you work and what kind of work is a better yard stick than how much wealth you have. In any case teachers and nurses certainly deserve more than CEOs, bankers and landlords who produce nothing and feed off the labor of others like vampires.
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@Fruit_Inspector
To each by their need. From each by their ability. You don't need your personal passion projects any more than Jeff Bazos needed to go to space. Also I am disinterested in being fair if it is a choice between fairness and human wellbeing.
Still if we must use some yardstick how hard you work and how unpleasant and necessary the work is a better one than how much wealth you possess for determining who deserves what.
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@Fruit_Inspector
pursue my passions unhindered.
Why would you he afforded the chance to pursue your passions if you won't even take care of yourself? Your passions are not covered in your basic needs. If just not starving or freezing to death is enough for you that fine but you don't get anything else. Why would you? I can't believe I didn't see this in your previous posts. No. No passion projects until you grow up. Your basic needs are provided for. No one is obligated to give you more even if we are unwilling to let you die for your immature attitude.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Because the option to compensate them is still possible.
So what? What if it isn't enough and no one wants to do it? What if everyone decides to get a small buisness loan and go into buisness for themselves and no one is willing to pump sewage for the wages you are offering?
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@949havoc
You're confusing your argument with mine. Your determinist theory is the one that insists on consistency
No sir. Your claim is that the ability to make different decisions in the same circumstances proves freewill. If conditions are off by so much as the placement of an electron then the conditions are not the same. If your internal state is not the same then different causes are in play. Only by making different decisions under identical circumstances can your experiment have any value. Otherwise we can attribute any discrepancy to different initial conditions.
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@Greyparrot
If you are making a distinction betwee killing and murder your statistics don't surprise me. They also don't tell the whole story. In any case I haven't even asked yet and I think it's time. What exactly do you mean by thug? What is a thug in the context of this conversation?
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@Fruit_Inspector
I was not intending to make a compelling argument
Mission accomplished
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@Fruit_Inspector
No such obligation exists now. What if no one wants a job doing dirty work? What if you cannot pay them enough to do it? How would you force them too if the money you can afford to offer isn't enough? I don't think I have any problems you don't also have to contend with.
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@Greyparrot
What about Mexico? There's a ton of guns in Mexico that any thug in Chicago can get as easily as Indiana.
What about Mexico? We regulate border crossings there and passports are needed. This is not the situation between Chicago and Indiana.
Maybe we should tackle the Thug Culture problem before attempting to solve the Gun Culture. I'm much more worried about a thug sitting next to me on a train than a gun.
I wouldn't worry unless it is your gun. Statistically speaking you are more likely to be harmed by your own firearm than someone else's. Also perhaps we shouldn't be arming first responders and training them to view the people they are sworn to protect as potentially dangerous criminals. Perhaps we should not fetishize the police on tv and in movies perpetuating the myth that police protect us from gun violence when they are in fact some of the largest contributors to gun violence. That might help. In fact if the police didn't foster an attitude of us versus them maybe a lot of the thug culture you are worried about would clear up on its own.
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@949havoc
Internal conditions being exactly the same? Where is my argument anywhere that they remain constant?
Well that will invalidate your experiment.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I did not ask you to believe the Bible.
Then you have no argument. Your entire argument hinges upon something that we agree, at least for the sake of this argument, is not compelling.
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@Greyparrot
It is hard to have effective gun control when guns can be brought easily across state lines. Unfortunately one state cannot regulate gun control on it's own. That is why great Britain is a better example than Chicago. Chicago is from a practical perspective unable to have gun control as long as Indiana has no gun control.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Your system should be able to stand on its own merit, rather than just needing to be better than another system.
Actually it only needs to be better than the current system and it would be preferable by definition.
The problem I see is that there is no real obligation for anyone to do the dirty work outside of intrinsic motivation and peer pressure.
No such obligation exists now. What if no one wants a job doing dirty work? What if you cannot pay them enough to do it? How would you force them too if the money you can afford to offer isn't enough? I don't think I have any problems you don't also have to contend with.
if you have an entire society, there are bound to be a group of people who don't see the common good as convincing enough to pump sewage.
Yes in our society they are called bankers, CEOs, land lords etc.
In essence, you are rewarding the lazy by giving them the benefits of having the dirty work done without actually having to do any dirty work. And that breeds resentment in those who are doing this work. The common good is only so fulfilling when you have to take out your neighbor's trash, but he doesn't have to take out yours.
This is already the situation between the working class and the ruling class.
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@TheUnderdog
You said your goal was deterrence, not human well being:
Sorry deterrence for the purposes of wellbeing. Wellbeing is the higher goal.
Things like not being a burden to others,
No man is an island. You must have the support of others to live and they must have your support. We are all a burden on each other and that is as it should be.
Their well being has to be considered, this is why we shouldn't burn them alive as punishment, even if deterrence is created as a result. However, I think executing them by firing squad is an acceptable punishment. It's quick, cheap, and relatively painless.
Quick and cheap are not a consideration for me and I am unconvinced that any method of execution or relatively painless.
Unlike the other arguments I have on this sight this is not an issue that can be resolved by logic. Unfortunately we don't seem to have the same goals in this regard or at least in as much as we do we disagree on the necessity of committing a second killing to make up for the first killing.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Again this is atheists trying to take Jesus and make him more atheist to spite Christians
I don't understand. If there was an actual historical jesus he was an apocalypse preaching rabbi. That is theistic by definition. According to the story he was a theist as well as a socialist. The two are not mutually exclusive and I'm not sure how you would get the idea that they are.
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@Polytheist-Witch
There is so much going on in this opening statement that it, ugh. It's becoming more acceptable to be all kinds of things it has nothing to do with just being gay there's more than one letter in lgbtq. Being bisexual is coming way more prevalent and that's because it's becoming more open and acceptable to be that way. I've met several people openly will tell you that they're asexual nobody would have ever even discussed that before. They just said I don't feel like dating and now when you ask they will say because I'm asexual and don't want to be with anybody. The numbers are increasing because people are able to openly say this is what I am without repercussions. And straight people produce gay people all the time. And gay people can have children. So can trans people and so can queer people.
Very well stated
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@Polytheist-Witch
Statistically speaking areas with stronger gun control suffer less gun violence. Please look up statistics of shooting deaths in Great Britain for the last ten years versus those of the united states. You are welcome to adjust by population but I think we both know what you are going to find.
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@Reece101
Determinism shouldn’t even be a debate anymore. We should just get on with our lives.
And yet here we are.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Then why are you suggesting we socially shame people to persuade them to do something they don't want to do?
I am suggesting that this will happen. The same way we socially pressure people we live with to do the dishes now. I'm not sure it is morally correct but it is better than coercing them with the threat of homelessness and starvation enforced by the threat of police violence which is our current system. Don't let the inability to he perfect be the enemy of improvement.
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Because when God has brought His judgment upon America to its culmination, you will understand why it has happened. Or you will at least have been warned.
This is not a reason to believe to believe in the bible before it happens. When the evidence is in is the time to believe not before. Why anyone should care about what the bible says now? Like what evidence is there that the bible is more than a fable?
How does that Romans passage convey an irrational fear of homosexuality?
Any fear of homosexuality is irrational and the authors of the bible seem really scared that two penises might accidentally rub together.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So is social shaming the only motivational tool you have to coerce people into doing dirty work?
Here is the problem. You think people will have to he coerced and I think it is wrong to coerce people.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Ok so the bible says some nasty homophobic things. We already knew that. The question is why should anyone care what the bible says?
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@Fruit_Inspector
And what happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
I tell you what I wouldn't do is threaten them with homelessness and death by starvation.
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@Fruit_Inspector
People already live as you suggest now. They are called CEOs, bankers, land lords etc. They are not workers and so they do not do the dirty work. I am not suggesting an end to work. I am suggesting the beugoisie lend a hand.
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