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@Fruit_Inspector
Can you explain what law unfairly targets people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?
Any law aimed at the poor or the homeless will disproportionately effect people of color because they are disproportionally effected by poverty. Any law that effects convicted criminals will disproportionately effect people of color because they are disproportionally convicted of crime. Any legal statutes that reduces the voting power of these groups will therefore necessarily disproportionately effect people of color. The net effect of making voting more difficult for the poor and the previously convicted is that black communities are harmed by these policies more often than white communities. These policies are often enacted at the level of local government rather than federal.
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@Fruit_Inspector
No "such laws" have existed.
Would you like to rethink that?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Now unless you have such evidence I have to ask that we get back on topic which is whether or not belief in the bible is speculative. I don't see how it even matters if a nonphysical thing can exist for it to be speculation to propose one sans sufficient evidence.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Can something only exist if it is made up of physical material?
Well matter or energy but pedantry aside...
It certainly seems to be the case that only physical things exist. In absence of evidence to the contrary I must conclude that the idea of a non physical thing is logically incoherent.
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@ludofl3x
Existence can only be sensibly defined as occupying space for an interval of time. In order to occupy space, you have to have physical properties. I've yet to encounter anyone who has a materially different explanation, and saying "that's true of all things but this" without demonstrating it is obviously special pleading.
Well stated. I'm not sure were to begin if I were to try to describe something that existed in no space for no time.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Yes or no do any existing laws unfairly target people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?No.
Would you like to rethink that?
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@ludofl3x
Well those ate interesting questions and certainly each of those things has an effect on the physical world and each has a physical component. Batman exists in as much as ink physically exists and is used as a medium to tell stories about him. Thoughts exist in as much as electrical activity in the brain physically exists and thoughts are an emergent property of this physical activity. Without any physical impact however I'm not sure how we would even be able to discuss the concepts. Like how would we discuss notbatman? Like whether fictional characters already imagined or even that ever will be imagined "exist" fictional characters who are never imagined don't exist even to this limited degree.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh please if he was lecturing on anything other than theism you wouldn't give a crap it would just be someone lecturing at a college for a fee.
Clearly you haven't been following my posts concerning my opinion of the exploitative nature of capitalism.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Perhaps it would help if you had a real world example of a nonphysical thing. Something whose properties can be examined and identified so that we can recognize another similar object and 0lace them in the same category.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I do not accept that anything non physical exists and am not even sure what non physical means unless it is a synonym nor nonexistent. That's as close to a simple yes or no I can give such an incoherent idea.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Forget Derrick Bell for a moment.
Yes or no do any existing laws unfairly target people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?
Yes or no have such laws and or explicitly racist laws ever existed?
Yes or no would people of color be suddenly on equal footing if these laws were to end today but nothing was done to address the already existing wealth gap?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do you dispute that systematic racism has existed that it continues to exist or that even if it were dismantled today it would still not put people of color of equal footing without some redistribution of resources?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If I ever get a coherent description of a third option I'll let you know.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What other kind of thing is there? What is not real if not imaginary?
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@Fruit_Inspector
How can something that is a basic foundation of understanding (such as racism) be evolving?
Our understanding is evolving and the language we use is also evolving. In the 1970's open a window would never have brought computers to mind. Sometimes we change how we use language. You can say racism and mean either one colloquially but critical race theory examines one in specific. As long as you are not trying to muddy the waters by pretending that you are using one meaning specifically to smuggle in the other concept later in the conversation I don't see what the problem is that you are having here.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is it possible for a being that is not made up of any physical material to exist?
What is it made up of then? I need some alternative to physical before I can consider this seriously.
This is begging the question and argument from ignorance. I can't prove a lot of things don't exist. If I believed everything I cannot specifically disprove then I would need to believe many things for which I have no evidence many of them logically incompatible. As an example I cannot specifically disprove that exclusively southern baptists and no one else are going to heaven and also cannot specifically disprove that exclusively Catholics are going to heaven and no one else but the two beliefs logically preclude one another. It is therefore more logically sound to not believe anything that you cannot specifically prove rather than to believe in things simply because you cannot specifically disprove them. Ergo it is more logically sound to not believe in heaven at all until it can be specifically proved.
We must always be mindful of our epistemological limitations.
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Same with Valhalla. Wouldn't want to end up there but at least it is clear what the mythology is suggesting happens to you.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
win
Win? Win what? The Christian afterlife mythology is pretty terrible but at least I know who are meant to be taken for the winners and who the losers.
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@Fruit_Inspector
For example, the idea of systemic racism as promoted by the NEA mirrors how Derrick Bell defined racism in CRT. However, Merriam-Webster did not define racism at all like that until June of 2020. So why is Bell's CRT definition of racism a basic foundation of understanding, rather than the traditional understanding that racism is specifically the beliefs and actions of individuals?
It is both. Language evolves.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I assume then that you believe it is impossible for an immaterial being can exist?
Well that depends very much on what you mean by
immaterial
What is the functional quantifiable difference between immaterial and nonexistent?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My what horrible after lives both those options sound like. I'll take unaware nothing any day over hell or worse heaven and I definitely don't want to experience life on an endless loop.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Specifically, a being that does not consist of physical material.
So... imaginary?
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@Fruit_Inspector
How much more specific must I be? These ideas are to critical race theory what biology 101 is to neuroscience. You might learn about the brain, among other things, in biology but to claim it is the same as taking a course on neuroscience is laughable.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is it possible that a metaphysical being could exist?If this metaphysical being created the physical universe, is it possible this being could communicate that fact to us so we could know why there is something rather than nothing?
What do you mean metaphysical? What is that? I am only aware of physical beings and forces. What is the practical quantifiable difference between physical and metaphysical?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Hinduism gives them a chance to be reincarnated as a human if they served their purpose on Earth properly.
How condescending of them... meaning only those who take this stance of course hindu worshippers presumably being a diverse lot like any religious group.
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@Fruit_Inspector
But even if it were. Even if ten year olds were being taught college level social science classes which is patently absurd what is your objection to the idea? Other than that those classes are way to advanced for those children of course.
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@Fruit_Inspector
These are the basic foundations of understanding. Critical race theory is much more in depth and nuanced study of those phenomena and just teaching these points in classes cannot necessarily be said to be critical race theory curriculum.
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@Fruit_Inspector
These points are not being adequately disseminated to our youth in my opinion but let's assume they are. These are the basic foundations of understanding. Critical race theory is much more in depth and nuanced study of those phenomena and just teaching these points and such classes cannot necessarily be said to be critical race theory curriculum.
But let's assume that it is full on critical race theory. That this is for all intents and purposes identical. Let's also assume that it is being taught in every classroom in America.
Now my first question is what is your objection to this? All of that is true. Do you object to truth in curriculum?
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@Fruit_Inspector
How do you know that what I said is speculation?
That's what you call making up a possible explanation in the absence of adequate evidence for any particular theory. Speculation isn't even a problem on its own. It is fun and occasionally useful to imagine hypothetical scenarios. It is a problem however if you mistake speculation for evidence of some proposition. Absent evidence other than the claim itself and better than anecdotal we cannot claim gnosis on the subject.
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@Tradesecret
Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them.
This seems awfully like charging students with extra steps.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is it being taught in public schools that racism is mainly systemic, that this systemic racism is a normal and perpetual reality that affects all our social institutions and practices, and that "individual racism" is often just a symptom of these deeper systemic issues?
In general no. In general public schools teach that Christopher Columbus was a hero and that the Indians and the pilgrims lived happily ever after... but that is what we should be teaching. This is a very simplistic version of race theory not the college level course. You need to learn this before you can even begin to study critical race theory scholastically.
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@zedvictor4
I don't pretend to know why there is stuff rather than no stuff. I'll leave that to apologists.
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@Fruit_Inspector
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Speculation at best. Worse not even your own speculation. You gave borrowed the speculation of someone whose identity you don't know who lived thousands of years ago who had far less access to scientifically accurate information.
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@zedvictor4
Rewards will inevitably be commensurate.
No one needs a billion dollars. No one deserves a billion dollars. A billion dollars is not commensurate. Things have gotten out of hand.
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It is also a college level course that probably none of us is actually educated in. We are all laymen. If you disagree with the theory you should address actual researchers as they actually understand the theory and could explain the particulars far better than I owing to their education.
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@sadolite
It is the study of the effects of racism. The effects of racism inform the conclusions not the opinions of the researchers.
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@Fruit_Inspector
The point I was making was that the secularist must either speculate or claim ignorance as to why there is something rather than nothing.
This is true for every human being who has ever lived. You too must either speculate or claim ignorance. If that is a problem for me it is equally a problem for you. No humans know what happened before or even in the first few nanoseconds of the event known colloquially as the big bang.
you made the claim that I also don't know. How do you know that for sure?
No cosmological model claims to know what if anything caused the aforementioned event. Our mathematics break down before that point. The best we can do is to speculate. If you had that information you would already have the Nobel prize because that would be big news for the astrophysicist community.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Are you speaking of racism as being the beliefs and actions of individuals, or the systems put in place by white people that benefit them at the expense of minorities?
Yes. That is both. Both of those things are racism. One is individual racism and the other is systemic racism.
And does racism exist only when specific racist things are happening, or is racism a normal and perpetual part of all our social institutions and practices?
Racism is baked into many of our policies. Past United states lawmakers seem to have had a real knack for writing laws that disadvantaged minorities without explicitly mentioning any minorities in the laws themselves.
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@949havoc
Since you argue that God cannot create imperfect things
I do not believe in any god(s) perhaps you are confused me with another poster.
Non-living things do not direct thought and action of sentient beings.
The word direct is a loaded term that begs the question. Nothing directs your actions but the laws of physics determine your actions. I hope you understand the distinction.
I offer one demonstrating the biblical day, month, year of creation which has not been directly rebutted.
I'm glad you have a book you like but the bible does not present any such date even if I were inclined to accept the bible as more than historical fantasy fiction or mythology. Some theologians claim to have figured out the date based on genealogies and other possibly apocryphal clues from the boom book itself (problematic since the claim can never be evidence of itself) but even there you see some disagreement over particulars.
That's just a small sampling of my "engagement."
Yeah that belongs in quotes my dude.
You cannot... you cannot... You cannot...As I said, argument for your limitations; they're yours, not mine. You don't believe in free will? I don't believe in limitations.
I mean motivational speeches aside you have physical and mental limitations put upon you by the laws of physics and the nature of your physical human body. Even if you were a disembodied spirit or a trans dimensional alien however and even if you were an omnipotent being with literally no limits whatsoever your thoughts and behaviors would still be by necessity either caused or uncaused.
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@949havoc
If you respond to this message in an attempt to prove freewill then you are subject to cause and effect. You cannot respond to this post without showing a decided lack of freewill.
If you refuse to answer in order to prove that you are not subject to cause and effect then you are subject to cause and effect. You cannot fail to respond to this post without showing a decided lack of freewill.
You cannot do (or not do) anything for any reason without being subject to cause and effect.
But even if you could the alternative is uncaused which is indistinguishable from random. If you simply wrote words that were not effected by the content of my message it would be essentially meaningless to the conversation for lack of context.
I am not engaged in a subjective determination here this is a logically inescapable fact. How could something be neither caused nor uncaused nor any combination of the two?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Let's cut through the baloney shall we? You are asking "why is there stuff rather than no stuff?" and the answer is I don't know and neither do you. It is unknowable. Ineffable. Beyond our epistemological limitations as a species.
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@949havoc
Woulds you like to repeat that a few more times. I don't thin k we hear you, yet.
Would you like to seriously engage the argument?
option is just between the other two, cause and uncause
Unless you know of a third option then yes.
No argument stands on its own
It doesn't matter who said it the argument either stands or fails on it's own merit. Otherwise you are making an appeal to authority.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Critical race theory is the advanced study of the effects of racism. Do you have some objection to the study of racism in order to understand and hopefully avoid racist executive policy?
For example, if we give equal access to schools regardless of skin color, we have eliminated the racist action of segregation, and we have addressed the inequality.
That you think it would he just tha TV simple without also viewing the long term economic impact of past racism and its effects on an individual's ability to afford tuition only highlights that we do in fact need this scholastic discipline.
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Neither electrons, nor other atomic particles, have intelligence. Come on, really? I have already equated free will with intelligence; that intelligence is a prerequisite of free will, and that it is not a property of inanimate objects.
There is no freewill. Either your intelligence is caused (determinism/not free) or it is uncaused (random/not will)
I have yet to see your evidence of that claim. Show me. a scholastic source, pls.
The argument stands in it's own and will continue to do so unless you have some alternative to these two states or some mix of the two. What is the third option between caused and uncaused?
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@bmdrocks21
Scientific racism is and always has been pseudo science like frenology and the electric universe.
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@bmdrocks21
I gave you the response your post merits.
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So why is there a need for CRT specifically?"
Someone should be examining the past and current effects of past and current racism on past and present society both to minimize racism (by recognizing it) and to address inequalities caused by racism past and present.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Many mathematical equations can be solved with algebra we still need calculus.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Because I have found there are many people who are intentionally deceptive when claiming CRT is not being taught or implemented anywhere outside of upper level college classes. Anyone who is familiar with CRT should know better.
It is not. It is a college level course. What is being offered by public schools is history and social studies programs some of which include curriculum about the effects of racism throughout history though in all honesty history is in general pretty whitewashed in public schools in America. It's an uncomfortable subject for a lot of us and no one likes discussing uncomfortable subjects with children. It doesn't help them to be better to pretend racism has been "solved" or worse that it was never a problem though.
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