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@janesix
I've been have recurring dream about my dog leaving us to live with a pack of wild dogs but coming back to visit with us. I've had it three times now that can remember.
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@drafterman
If Grahf and Luraxt will join me we will check out the coffin maker otherwise we will all go to the burgomaster's house I suppose.
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@Shed12
I don't understand how a supposedly meaningless universe could spawn meaningful things
As far as I can tell it did not. I am unaware of any meaning or value that was not assigned or imposed subjectively and artificially by humans.
nor do I understand how subjective values are any more made up or artificial than anything else that exists.
I'm just not sure what you mean by this. An asteroid exists physically an opinion does not exist beyond the opinion holder.
By objective judgment, I mean what you mean
That remains to be seen.
Does agreement really matter?
The defining of terms is a necessary step in the pursuit of any debate. If we do not agree on the definitions of the words or concepts we are discussing we may not even be having the same conversation.
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@Buddamoose
Milk? No thanks. Eikka just sipps water.
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@Plisken
The bible claims that at least one creator god exists and Stephen makes an excellent point in that the wording of the bible would seem to suggest more than one god. My point remains however. Whether the bible only makes the unsubstantiated claim that one god exists or the unsubstantiated claim that many gods exist they are still only unsubstantiated claims.
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@Stephen
The bible is the claim not the evidence. It doesn't matter if the bible claims there is one god or five or fifty none has been demonstrated.
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@drafterman
Preparing healing word, shield of faith, guiding bolt, bless, spiritual weapon and healing prayer
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@Shed12
Can you explain to me what subjective and objective means here?
There are objective facts. The temperature is a measurable objective fact. Objective facts are meaningless.
And then there are subjective values. It is cold is a subjective observation based on our opinion of what constitutes hot or cold. Subjective values give things meaning but they are not real they are made up. They are artificial constructs we use to relate to a meaningless universe.
Concerning morality, can't objective judgments be made?
That depends on what you mean by objective judgements. We can agree on the subjective standard we will base our arguments about morality on and then make objective statements about morality based on that standard. For example if we agreed for the purposes of this discussion that we will both agree that freedom is good and repression is evil and based on our agreed upon criteria killing someone would be evil because a dead person has no freedom.
Did you have such a standard you wish to adopt for the purposes of this discussion?
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@Shed12
When one is discussing utility one is usualy making objective observations about how well suited something is to accomplishing a particular task. A hammer is good for directing force. A pencil is good for making marks out of graphite.
When one is discussing morality one is usually making subjective judgements about what an intelligent thinking being ought to do or our not do. A doctor ought to save people even if he isn't getting paid to. A man ought not rape an unconscious woman even if she won't remember it.
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@Shed12
A thing is made good by what degree it fulfills a function. For example, for banging nails, a hammer is more good than a pencil, and for writing, a pencil is more good than a hammer
This is a description of utility not morality. I'm open to discussing either but if you are engaged in an equivocation fallacy then we may not be able to discuss either concept until we unravel the difference between the two.
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@Shed12
Isn't "a commonly accepted standard" just a group of subjective whatevers?
Yes.
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@Shed12
What makes something good?
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@Shed12
Good and evil are subjective. I agree that there are things which I find good. I agree that given a commonly accepted standard people can discuss the concept of good. I disagree that anything is good intrinsically or inherently. If you would like to suggest a standard or accept my personal standard then we can make objective statements about morality based on this standard otherwise we are merely giving our personal opinions.
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@Outplayz
I am usually disinterested in arguments ad populum but as long as you realize that you are engaged in one and not making a claim outside of that...
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@Outplayz
So you agree with the majority about slavery but disagree with the majority about drug addiction and yet you feel that you are taking the moral position in both cases?
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@Outplayz
So far you have not offered anything objective. You aren't under any obligation to of course but without some mutual standard we must recognize that it may be impossible to say that something is good or evil unless we are merely discussing our personal opinions.
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@Outplayz
By that argument if enough people believed that abusing children was desirable then it would be "good"?
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@Outplayz
But without a standard someone could argue that showing skin is "more evil". That is my real point. That is why saying rape is evil isn't enough we need to know what about it makes it evil.
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@Outplayz
Only that everyone might be evil from someone's point of view.Not sure what you were trying to clarify there.
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@Goldtop
What I find is that a test is not definitive if it does not conclusively reveal what it is testing for or if it gives false possitives. If ants are not self aware but they set off a false positive for self awareness then the test is not definitive.
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@Goldtop
Unless we can agree on definitions we may not be having the same conversation. As for myself I do try to be careful to limit my claims to my epistemology.
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@Goldtop
So by the same rational there could be other reasons besides a lack of self awareness that explains not responding to the mirror test. Things like relying on your sense of smell to identify other individuals over visual acuity?
By that argument the mirror test is not a definitively accurate test of self awareness whatever that is.
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@Goldtop
We don't have to use Google but if not please supply your preferred definition.
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@Goldtop
Does that mean these ants are definitively self aware?
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@drafterman
(Are you serious with this right now?!) I need a minute to decide how Eikka reacts but however that ends up being the rage that distorts my face for a moment might call for an intimidation roll)
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@drafterman
I am looking for some special bones. The bones were lost and they need to be put back.
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@Goldtop
Dogs fail the mirror test.
Ants pass the mirror test.
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@drafterman
I understand that you kill gophers. And find places to put bones.
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@Drafterman
I sleep in the pews. But first I talk to the grave digger.
Hello sir I understand you have an important function here.
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@Buddamoose @thedredpriatroberts @kindertina @earth @Drafterman
So I think we should long rest and then all regroupbat the end. First order of business has to be returning the horses but we can discuss our next move after that.
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@Buddamoose
(Yeah but he might have to hire mercs for me. I know a gnome a human and a drow.)
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@Goldtop
I asked you what your preferred definition and you essentially told me to look it up, which I did for both of our conveniences. The definition offered by Google was circular therefore largely meaningless. If you have a different preferred definition then please offer it.
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@Goldtop
Ok then what does intentionally mean in this context. What makes an act intentional.
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@drafterman
Father, what makes you think the two of us (indicating grahf and myself) can secure these remains by ourselves.
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@Outplayz
Political systems often demonize others as well. And just to be clear drone strikes kill their fair share of inocent people.
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@Outplayz
They justify it? Dors that make it right? If not why doesn't it? You said your moral judgements are subjective.
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@Outplayz
I'm not sure if the vast majority do agree though I too would like to think so. There is just to much violence in the world to make that argument. Some religious and some not so religion clearly isn't the only problem just not the answer to the problem.
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@Outplayz
Let me put it another way. I'm not asking if murder is wrong I'm asking why murder is wrong and if it is only subjectively wrong then we look for why you feel it is wrong. You say it is because you wouldn't want to be murdered. If that is likewise a subjective opinion then we should ask what makes treating others as you would want to be treated moral? You have already said that some individuals may want to be treated in ways you would not enjoy so that standard doesn't objectively eliminate any behavior as immoral except that you have taken a few crimes and declared them the evil things that are evil. Why of all possible things people disagree about is this the moral standard? How have you made your moral judgement?
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@Outplayz
Which means our subjective opinions about what our standard means will perforce be at least a little different. Without an objective standard such as promoting wellbeing versus harm we may not even be having the same conversation.
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@Outplayz
In that case we still need a standard we both agree on to base our arguments about morality on and you have the added challenge of including all the immoral acts you mentioned as not living up your standard for a moral act.
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@Goldtop
Physical injurry is at least an objective value. Is giving someone a physical injury the only immoral act that you are prepared to recognize?
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@Goldtop
Google defines intentional as "on purpose" or "deliberate".
As for deliberate I will assume you mean the first definition Google provides which is "conciousely" or "intentionally". So that is a circular definition.
Google provides a one word definition of the phrase "on purpose" and that word is "intentionally". Again circular definition.
So I ask again what does that mean to you? What is the observable difference between an intentional act and an unintentional act or unguided event?
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@Outplayz
But those evils are only evil in as much as you wouldn't want them to happen to you?
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@Earth
My plan is to long rest here but other than that sounds good.
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@Outplayz
Even someone that is evil would think it's evil if someone murdered them
So is your subjective standard that you should not do what you wouldn't want to be done to You?
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