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@zedvictor4
We have a very brief time frame in which to be effective.
A blessing and a curse
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@ebuc
I agree that we are finite but end of days claims are historically common place. I don't think anyone knows when it is coming.
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@ebuc
2232
Well I'll be dead by then; but that is still a sad thought; but I'll never find out if you are right.
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@zedvictor4
And human beings are dispensable.
I don't think they should be. My personal database tells me humans are worthwhile. It is an opinion that I hold so strongly that for me it takes on the force of fact. I understand academically that this is only true if I make it true but I just cannot do other than to make it as true as I can for both myself and others.
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@Tradesecret
I mean you both have "faith" and so does a bhudist. Pedantry aside it is different than having faith in mathematical truth or peer reviewed scientific observation. As an outsider how am I to accurately assess which "faith" is "correct" to have? What is the difference between the book(s) that you all point to as claim and evidence all in one?
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@Dr.Franklin
who were the people who made the world industrious?
Why the proletariat of course.
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@Tradesecret
We are not arguing about biblical truth. 949havoc is not arguing about biblical truth - he is arguing for extra biblical truth. Nor are we arguing over the interpretation of a text.Your assertion is as helpful as two CHOs arguing the science of the pandemic and coming to two different conclusions. Both cannot be correct - and yet both claim the science of their positions.The bible is sufficient.
Then why the disagreement? I feel like a book which represented the word of any respectable god would be clear cut enough to avoid confusion like this. Terrible communication skills that. Apparently not part of his omnipotence.
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Money is made up and banks don't produce anything.
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@n8nrgmi
I didn't say pay people's student loan debt I said forgive it. Erase it. Make it go away
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@n8nrgmi
notice i also said regulate college costs and make loans/grants marketable. two years is enough for a degree. focus on STEM. that sorta stuff. make loans income based and not part of a person's credit report.
Would you be in favor of forgiving all current student loan debt?
i would be open to limiting how many houses a person can own. but before we do that i'd rather allow millions more manufactured houses and trailers than zoning currently allows.
Perhaps we should concentrate on filling the houses that are already vacant before we build even more.
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@FLRW
All the USA has to do is to introduce USAcoin. Bitcoin has no value yet it is worth $61,109 U. S. dollars.
Well that is how regular money already works. I'm not much for switching to letting weasels into the henhouse because foxes are such trouble. Printing money hasn't gotten us put of trouble so I highly doubt computing new money would make a difference.
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@n8nrgmi
So your idea is for more young Americans to be saddled with crippling life long debt?
As for housing perhaps if we abolish the land lord class and don't allow people to own homes they don't personally use.
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Industrialization made the world wealthy not capitalism. In fact I posit to you that if food shelter and education were free we might have many more scientists, doctors and forward thinkers. Who knows what brilliant life changing ideas we have lost because a brilliant person had no choice but to toil in relative obscurity by their circumstances? The circumstance specifically of being unable to acquire higher education because of the pricetag and/or investment in time.
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@Tradesecret
@949havoc
You two arguing about biblical "truth" weakens both your positions.
IF the bible is the TRUTH but only "when interpreted correctly" THEN the bible is by necessity an insufficient source of truth as a stand alone work.
If the bible is insufficient to reveal truth as a stand alone work THEN without some definitive method of determining which interpretation is "correct" both your arguments are equally uncompelling.
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@Trent0405
Let's imagine two men. One makes ten million dollars a year. One makes ten thousand. Let's say both pay 25% flat tax. Let's further say that eight thousand a year is what each needs to live on... clearly these numbers are unrealistic in our modern economy but since this is just an example let's make simple math shall we?
Ok so we have
10,000,000 - 2,500,000 (taxes) -8,000 (cost of living) = 7,492,000
10,000 - 2,500 (taxes) - 8,000 (COL) = -500
Unfortunately a flat tax disproportionately harm the poor. Even without any legal chicanery or loopholes a flat tax doesn't address the most basic problem causing the wage gap. The problem of concentrating wealth in few hands. Capitalism tends to monopoly and once begun the process is compounding and very difficult to stop. Rather than a flat tax I recommend a flat top salary.
May I recommend (if taxes are even necessary and/or desirable) we have a 100% tax for any profit above this amount. Also if the rich are not asked to pay taxes on their gross earnings but only on their net gains than neither should the workers and if the workers are asked to pay taxes before expenses than likewise the rich should have this same burden.
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@cristo71
There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured with what is right in America.
I am unconvinced.
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Of all the things I feel makes Trump a poor boss an unethical buisness man and an incompetent public servant that he allegedly paid for sex or enjoyed an unorthodox kink are entirely immaterial. So long as inky concerning adults are involved I don't think there is anything wrong with any of that.
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@cristo71
It is a system of exploitation of labor for profit. Profit dictates policy in a capitalist state.
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@949havoc
it is a requirement of personal responsibility
Why? Automation is at an all time high.one person can produce as much as one hundred in the same period of time. Why is work necessary for everyone as a full time obligation? One of the biggest complaints people have about their jobs is how much of their job is completely unnecessary. Why do you feel people are obligated to do unnecessary work?
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@Double_R
Do you believe Biden legitimately won the election, yes or no?
No
The electoral college renders every presidential election into a mockery of democracy. It is not even representative democracy (which I am unconvinced I feel is particularly democratic anyway) but instead is cronyism. The electoral college is not elected by the will of the people and no federal law exists which enforces the electoral college to vote as they believe best represents their state or the nation.
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@TheUnderdog
Egypt not taking down their pyramids (which were built by slaves).
Actually there is absolutely zero archeological evidence for this. Teams of professional stonemasons worked on these public works projects. They were paid beer,bread and meat as well as receiving burial sometimes in attached structures and some in smaller structures nearby the pyramid.
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@Wylted
fair enough but I can't tell if you are talking about actual fascists here or just being liberal with the word
Actual fascists are not socialists. That is all I have said. I have not actually given any examples of a fascist regime.
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@Wylted
I think fascists were pretty open about being fascists
Not in political climates where fascism is a dirty word. They must identify with some other political system in that case in order to gain a foothold.
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@949havoc
He had a preference for one over the other. This CAUSED him to "choose". It was not an "unfettered" choice whatever that is. It was a determination of which he preferred. A determination requires no actual choice.
If he had preference then he was subject to cause and effect (determinism)
Definitions are in the end arbitrary though useless unless agreed upon a priori. This is why defining terms is an important part of any debate.
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@Wylted
Totalitarian and fascist regimes rarely call themselves fascists or totalitarians. It is sort of like if you had a corporate oligarchy where profit determined executive policy but called it a representative democracy. Mislabeling a thing does not change its essential nature.
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@cristo71
Resources are no longer limited?
Finite yes but we throw away enough food to feed the world's hungry and leave many houses vacant while people remain homeless. This is not a supply problem it is s distribution problem. Our distribution system is capitalist. That is the problem.
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Paid sick and child care leave. Free or low cost libraries and museum. An education system. Minimum wage. Civil rights. Essential services like fire fighters. Infrastructure.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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@cristo71
My argument has evolved since that post. The older I get the more I find I do support socialist programs. More to the point the more I realize I always have. Programs like social security and child labor laws. These are socialist initiatives.
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@TheUnderdog
You can usually only convict one person of murder.
People are incarcerated for a number of violent and non violent crime they may or may not have committed. I'm not sure I see your point in regards to the prison system being incentivized by profits to encourage mass incarceration.
Prisoners generating profit at slave wages is a slippery slopeHow would it be a slippery slope?
It incentivizes not just being fiscally neutral but turning a profit at which point someone is profiting from slave labor.
Legally; it does. Morally, it depends. If you kill some middle eastern civilian because you knew you could get away with it, that would be murder and you should face the death penalty. But if you kill someone whom other people have decided that they committed murder with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, that's just implementing punishment.
What if you knowingly order the death by drone strike of a large number of civilians in order to execute without due process a relatively small number of accused international criminals?
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But, to play your game, I'll give it you in two simple verses, since on their effect "hang the law and the prophets.""Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matt 22: 37, 39If we truly kept these two commandments, every word of them, we are already keeping the rest. If we're only keeping one, we're breaking both; the same effect as keeping none.Tell me what other commandment, parable, or psalm is not accomplished by the keeping of these two, alone?
I have no idea to what your #38 refers. A bunch of OT citations. And?
Do they have some relevance to anything?
Want to explain yourself?
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@3RU7AL
The government should be like a non-profit insurance company.A capitalist government is like a for-profit insurance company.
Well stated. I'm stealing this.
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@949havoc
- Distinguish the brain chemistry of every individual
- Act upon that assessment to influence unique brain chemistry to cause a thought or action.
- Convince us that it, the universe, controls our choices and not our personal free will.
Item #3, my friend. I know not from whence you get "non-determinism."
Control is a loaded word that sort of predisposes a conscious actor and I don't care to let you smuggle it in. Your actions are determined by your preferences (not your choice) the potential consequences of your actions (not your choice) and the limits of your physical capabilities (not your choice). The universe does not need to change in any fundamental way. The universe we observe is not compatible with freewill.
Assuming indeterminism (random events) if an action is truly random then it cannot be effected by your choices (to be effected by is to be a part of cause and effect/determinism).
No clever mix of these two extremes generates the magical conditions of freewill.
That you have a will does not make that will free and the universe at large doesn't appear to have any will whatsoever. Just obderate movements of raw physics.
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@Dr.Franklin
Yes
It turns out you can fight over things other than land ownership and that even if you don't believe in land ownership you can still believe in land rights. On a side note it really is a shame that we don't play together better.
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@949havoc
Leviticus 11:10
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.
Leviticus 19:28
You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Psalms 137:9
A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and smashes them against a rock!
Leviticus 18
The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.
21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.
21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.
Exodus 21:20 and 21
20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
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@949havoc
Before we discuss determinism versus indeterminism I think it behooves us to finish our discussion of freewill because even without determinism in a random universe that doesn't follow cause and effect freewill is logically incoherent. Random events are not subject to choice.
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@cristo71
Sorry— you lost me at “vestigial reaction.” I also don’t see how what you said next concerns what I said.
Vestigial as in evolutionary leftover. The desire to protect limited resources is an evolutionary advantage that hurts us now that we have plenty to go around but don't really know how to share effectively.
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@cristo71
A vestigial reaction. Throughout most of human history there was not enough to go around. Now we throw away enough food to feed the world's hungry because it feels wrong to just give stuff away. It is not wrong though. I do not do worse because you do better. Quite the opposite. Who knows how your life will benefit me in the long run.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Capitalism has a huge vested interest in portraying communism as intrinsically unjust and anti freedom. They cannot afford to let people know that they could be free of the cult of work and the exploitation of corporate interests.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Oh I don't think so but then again I don't think you need to be hypnotized for a good ole brain scrubbin
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Do you believe that you can be hypnotized ?
Like in the movies? Nah. But... but hey listen. Folks are, um, suggestible. Like we remember the red car, even if there was no red car, if someone asks us about it. Science fact is stranger than science fiction!
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@Polytheist-Witch
How many Genghis Khan statues do we have in the US? Not sure we get to tell other countries what they can and can't do. Actually people are spending money on having religious statues removed from taxpayer property. If you want to build a Confederate statue or put the ten commandments in your front yard there's not much anybody could do to stop you. Again we're addressing statues in public areas or that are being kept up by tax money privacy is a completely different matter.
Well stated
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@Greyparrot
Unless there are two boxes with two separate air supplies both cats will collapse into the same superposition. Even in their quantum state you have either two live cats or two dead cats. What is undetermined is which state they will be in when the box is opened. Quantum physics is counterintuitive.
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@TheUnderdog
The left tends to favor more socialization than the right (like with healthcare), but assuming your a socialist, that's a left wing ideology.
The American democratic party supports the capitalist state. They are not left enough.
Life in jail will generate more profit for prisons.
That seems like a huge problem that might lead to more innocent people incarcerated. Someone should probably change that.
Prisons should be fiscally neutral; meaning the labor generated from prisoners should pay for the costs of the prison. With this being said, prison lengths should be shorter generally.
Prisoners generating profit at slave wages is a slippery slope but I think we come closer to agreeing about this than anything so far so BULLY!!
The executioner had no idea they were innocent; he thought they were guilty like the people who sentenced the prisoner to punishment. People that are believed to be innocent by the justice system don't get punished.The murderer on the other hand, killed people that he knew never committed murder.
The state decides which killings qualify as murder. Murder is by definition an illegal killing. State sanctioned killing is not murder at all. That doesn't make state sanctioned killers innocent. In any case killing a person never prevents someone from being killed in the same way that falling pushing someone out a window never prevents a fall.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't need to tell myself anything. Even if every other atheist were rabid with anti theist hatred I am not responsible for their actions or attitudes. I'm just letting you know. In any case I don't hate any theists at all and that includes you and if you have to believe I hate you because I am an atheist and in your philosophy atheist=bad then that says a lot more about you than it does about me. I wish I could give you a hug. You seem like you need it.
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If all I invested was $500K and that investment becomes worthless, I have lost much more.
You have made a one time risk that diminishes commensurate to your profits (stolen production). The worker is not rewarded for his risk which again is the same. The worst that can happen to either the worker or the investor is destitution, homelessness and starvation and in general investors who make a bad investment are not as likely to he even temporarily homeless as is a working class person who loses his job.
In a free market, there are jobs available.
In a capitalist state only those jobs which produce corperations wealth can exist. As automation becomes more common place fewer workers are necessary. It would be bad buisness to employ more people than you must. The average worker produces far more than ever before. Mathematically this means fewer jobs.
I had a grand father who was poor, his dad didn't know much English and he made himself to be a lawyer through grit. People are able to get out of poverty in a capitalist society.
This is the exception not the rule. The single biggest indicator of future wealth is the wealth of a child's parents. That occasionally an impoverished person does manage through a combination of hard work and luck to become wealthy. This doesn't mean that everyone has the opportunity to do so. In fact capitalism necessitates a working class. Capitalism guarantees that your argument cannot be taken at face value. The poor are not meant to become wealthy and most of them simply cannot.
politicians on both sides have incentives to not help the poor out. Some are curropt. Even if your a non curropt democrat, you know that poor people tend to vote for democrats, so you have to tell your base, "I want to get you out of poverty", but you know if you actually did that, they would start to vote republican (and it costs you your job potentially). So even AOC doesn't have an incentive to actually help the poor; she just has to pretend that she is.
That sounds like a huge problem with the system. Someone should probably change that.
Below is the law that outlawed racial discrimination:
That's nice. Black people are still astronomically more likely to be imprisoned and/or impoverished than their white counterparts so the law, even if a good one which does prevent some oppression, is not doing enough to prevent systemic racism.
Bezos is more productive to society than all of his siblings combined.
Jeff Bazos does not produce anything. He is not the most productive anything. Amazon workers are responsible for the productivity you are referencing.
I wouldn't say it's the fault of black people; it's just different priorities.For example, lets say you have person A who wants to be a runner, and person B who wants to be a weightlifter. The person As of the world tend to be faster than the person Bs of the world. The person Bs of the world tend to be stronger than the Person As of the world. This isn't bad; it's just because Person A and Person B have different goals in life.Lets say you have white people and black people. The whites of the world tend to want to earn more. The blacks of the world tend to want stronger family values. This is often due to the rampant single motherhood within the black community(R.85713f559ea8c2f40913d8fb86d24529 (1222×799) (bing.com)) and this tends to make blacks respect family more, since they know first hand the effects of single motherhood. Often family values come at the expense of a higher salary (because if you focus on your family a lot, you tend to be less focused with your career and vice versa).Because of this, whites tend to earn more and blacks tend to have stronger family bonds. This isn't wrong, and it's not like one is better than the other, it just shows that racial groups tend to have different goals in life.
So now black people are poor because they are more likely to be single parent families? You think it isn't wrong to force people to choose between family bonds and financial security? You think black people are not denied raises and promotions and loans that their white contemporaries are not? You do understand that this is racist don't you? I only ask because implicit bias is easy to miss and if you must understand that problem before you can address it.
Black people are not biologically different enough to qualify as a seperate race only systemic racism separates us not biology. A black brain is functionally identical to a white one.
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@949havoc
We are talking economic systems here, yeah? is not communism/socialism also an economic system? Do they not engage in business? Yes. Does that not include manufacturing and distribution? Yes. Just not as well, and sustainable, as capitalism. What, you think greed and exploitation do not exist in those systems? I know they do in capitalism, but also in the others, so that is not a distinction you can put entirely n the capitalist box.
What are you talking about? The world is capitalist. It is so capitalist that the only way for socialist systems to move goods they must rely on capitalism to do so. Capitalism has a huge vested interest in keeping it that way.
chhosing to be a victim of the system, whatever that system may be,
The impoverished are never asked if they would like to opt out of capitalism and no alternative currently exists to opt out too.
I happen to be a statistician
And you don't recognize that statistically the biggest indicator of whether or not a child will grow up to be wealthy is the wealth of that child's parents? I didn't think that was at all controversial. Perhaps you have some sources?
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@TheUnderdog
I'm surprised you said that because private prisons (which the left hates) have an incentive to oppose the death penalty(something the left supports).
I do not support the left. They support the capitalist state. I do not support the right. They support the capitalist state. I do not support the privatization of prisons because it incentivizes incarceration through profit. Prisons should be incentivized to rehabilitate the guilty and to release the innocent.
We will make more mistakes,
One innocent person executed is one to many... also if we support execution for those who kill innocent people who is got execute the executioner?
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@949havoc
Breathing.Eating.Pregnancy.Dying.
I think if you examine these events they are actually all caused. In particular on each death certificate is a place for cause of death.
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