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@949havoc
By that argument, no other system but capitalism produces and distributes goods, and that is clearly false.
Please elaborate. What system currently exists for the widespread distribution of goods that is not a business endeavor?
I did not blame victims. I said people should not accept being victims but, often, the choice is theirs.
Please elaborate. What precisely is the difference between victim blaming and claiming that victims have chosen to be abused?
Also freewill is logically incoherent so no none chooses anything.
So, what's your excuse for people like Dr. Ben Carson, who was just about as poor as can be, yet, he. achieved a high education, valued it, and pursued and achieved excellence.
Outlying data must drive staticians mad but it does change the statistical base line which in this case is that the more wealthy a family you belong to the higher your chances of attending college.
The only thing funny about that is that it is how patently false it is,
Very few people go from impoverished to wealthy. If a minuscule number do manage it this doesn't mean that every person who fails to do so is at fault though it does allow conservatives to falsely claim that this is the case. America is not a meritocracy it is a capitalist state. Capitalism tends naturally towards monopolies and monopolies guarantee there isnot enough to go around even when there is enough to go around.
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@Polytheist-Witch
atheists don't hate
I'm going to be honest with you here poly I don't know any atheists who hate theists nearly as much as you seem to hate us.
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@Ramshutu
non-causality is not a thing
More that there is no evidence of anything that is not caused. It is reasonable therefore to withhold belief in indeterminism but that is different from being able to make a positive claim to the contrary.
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@949havoc
I'm not sure what you are asking for me to argue. Random events are just as incompatible with freewill as determinism. Even if you could show something to be truly random (and so far you haven't) it would not help the case for freewill.
If you behave randomly you are not making any choices you are just doing random things.
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@949havoc
I value fidelity more than notches on my holster.
How nice for you that this has always been your choice. Not everyone is so lucky.
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@949havoc
We have a distribution problem, and, that, likely, caused by greed.
So not to beat a dead horse but that's capitalism.
YOU decide to be a victim. YOU also decide to not be a victim. Decide.
Victim blaming further hurts the victim and excuses the abuser. No sir your abuser decides to make you a victim and if you cannot remove yourself from the situation (say because of you do you risk destitution, homelessness and starvation if you try) then the abuse will continue.
education, and acting on the education, is the pathway out
Higher education is just one more thing disproportionally provided to the rich and withheld from the poor. Its almost like the system is set up so that you have to start wealthy to end up wealthy. Funny that.
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@949havoc
I am unconvinced that random seeming events are in fact random. That being said if random events do exist/occur it still wouldn't help the case for freewill.
Random=/=freewill
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@TheUnderdog
Someone that owns $500K of stock is getting $50K/year from that stock. A worker may earn $50K/year from their labor. If the company goes bankrupt, I lose $500K and the worker loses their job and would have to find a new one (a process that usually takes about a year). I lost $500K and the worker lost $50K. I'm more at risk as an investor.
Incorrect. You are failing to take into account how much more of a loss is for someone who only has 50k. Also you are simply assuming that another job is available. Workers do not choose which jobs are available or when.
Workers aren't oppressed. Food and rent are cheap for workers working 40 hours a week. They use their excess funds to invest.
Man you really don't know what it is like to not have enough money to live on do you? For many people there are no excess funds.
The median salary in the US is about $35K/year(median us salary - search results (bing.com)). They live off $30K, and they invest the rest in the stock market. People making less should find better jobs.
Half of all people make less than the average. That is what average means. That is a definitional truth. As for better jobs workers do not decide what jobs are available or when.
I was saying that despite growing up in the same environment, Jeff Bezos ended up more successful that his siblings. If America was a white supremist country, then minorities would be heading to the Bahamas instead of the US because the Bahamas are both rich and black majority. But people are moving to the US because America's isn't racist.
The racism is systemic and even I'd all traces of oppressive policy where removed the effect of that racism would continue. For example bank loans (a critical component of starting a small business) are statistically far more likely to be awarded to white men than to women or people of color. There is no law that specifically says that this should he the case. It is enough that no law prevents it. That allows the systemic oppression to continue.
Jeff Bezos did end making more profit than any of his siblings but I think you will find that mathematically there must be a top earner in any family.
I think Thomas Sowell wrote a book on why race groups end up in different places. Blacks focus on certain things; whites focus on different things, and this produces different results. Male and female brains are different that leads to different results for the genders.
You think black people being more likely to be impoverished is the fault of black people and you don't think some racism is going on? Maybe examine that for a moment.
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@TheUnderdog
private prisons have an incentive to oppose the death penalty because they have more prisoners to take care of so they can get more money from the government.
Well that doesn't sound like a good system. Someone should probably change that.
The neighborhood I live in in is pretty good.
Lucky you. Still your philosophy seems to suggest that lif you lived next to a murderer that would be your problem not mine and it would be unreasonable to ask me for twenty dollars to fix the problem.
The $20 to execute someone is cheaper than the $2 million it takes to feed them for the rest of their lives.
This is not the reality of the situation. As things currently stand it us more expensive to execute.
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@SkepticalOne
@949havoc
Freewill is logically incoherent.
All actions/events are either caused (determinism)
Or uncaused (indistinguishable from random)
Determinism is incompatible with free will. Randomness is incompatible with freewill.
No clever mix of determinism and indeterminism solves for freewill.
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@zedvictor4
Therefore I am awarded a badge.
🎖
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@Tradesecret
Sorry you think that. I don't use faith as a standard. I use reason. Atheism is based on faith. I give plenty of reasons for my particular view of the world. And you do too. But it is still faith. Reason requires faith. I never just resort to the nonsense - that it is just faith.
Pedantry it is. If you want to say reason requires faith and create a definition whereby that is correct fine but reason backed up by evidence is still different than religious faith which is divorced from the need for evidence.
No you are missing the point. Holiness is acting in accordance with right. This is quite different to what the atheist does. No offence - but it comes back to the definition of right or good.
Right and good are subjective terms that require a goal. If you personally define good as both believing in and acting on the moral dictates of a supernatural historical fiction then firstly I find less utility in that than the definition "doing things that improve the human condition" then I guess you are pedantically correct again but I am deeply unimpressed with that kind of goodness. Holiness as you describe it doesn't strike me as a positive trait.
Just like atheism sounds like superstition to others.
Not believing in magic is superstitious in the same way not eating corn flakes is breakfast or not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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@Sum1hugme
Marx and Engels believed that socialism was a bridgehead into communism. But in the USSR and everywhere else pretty much, once there was a socialist regime with people in power, those people did not willingly give up their power for a communist state. In Stalin's case he tried to create a state communist state, which is just socialism. Countries never leave socialism and become communist.
Agreed and many turn into totalitarianism or fascism.
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@Rendered231
If someone says that communism is totalitarian, you can be very sure that person is neither a socialist or communist.
Well stated. The whole post really. I personally am in favor of making the distinction between private and personal property. I don't want to take your tv I want to give you part ownership in a factory.
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@RationalMadman
Communism is the totalitarian
Incorrect. Just because totalitarians have often masqueraded as communists does not mean that is what communism is. Totalitarians and fascists often sell their ideology in the trappings of another. As Donald trump the fascist is not actually interested in democracy though he used democratic talking points Stallin the totalitarian is not actually a communist though he used communist talking points. Communism is anti hierarchical. If someone is "in charge" then it isn't a communist thing.
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@949havoc
Methane, oh boo-hoo. Tell you what: more methane is produced by rice paddies, and all other wetlands, cultivated and natural, than was ever or will ever be produced by cows. Eat your rice, but leave my steak alone. Every stinking living thing produces methane. It's nature, bud, even from your butt. Your mouth, too, at times.
Overproduction of all food stuffs is the issue even those not specifically mentioned. Please don't be pedantic it doesn't actually serve any purpose.
Eviction, oh, boo-hoo. Pay your rent on time; be left alone. Better, earn more than min wage, buy your own house, but know that you still must pay the mortgage on time. Didn't you learn that when the bubble burst in 2008 because too many people took out home loans they could never afford? And many ofd them trashed their homes. Nice.
Predatory loan practices have gutted the American housing market leaving many houses vacant. The mortgage companies are the ones most responsible for the homeless crisis. The very people you are trying to convince me to go to for help are the enemy.
Shackled to cars, oh, boo-hoo. Get a bicycle. Hop on a bus/trolley/train. Walk if you must. What did 19th century people do? Tired of bitching yet? Nope.
I don't own a car. I use public transportation or my feet. I am luckier than most. But please if you have any more false assumptions about me share them.
Money? Oh, boo-hoo. Make enough for your need, and invest the rest. Do that, you tend to avoid all your bitching.
When I say ambition need not have any do with money and you make a post like this I suspect you don't actually read my posts at all. I am not asking for more money. I don't need more money.
Overproduction. oh, boo-hoo. Seems we are in a mode wherein overproduction is not the problem; it's delivery. The supply chain. That's what happens when your President decides to pat people for not working. You don't have a production problem; you have a distribution problem, and it started at the Oval. All he's distributing is horseshit.
This is not a recent issue. I am not talking about out current issues with supply chains I'm talking about how our supply chains have always sent more food to the dump than to the hungry. That isn't a bug it's a feature. That is why the system must change.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well as debates go a debate about mediumship would go a lot smoother pro if any medium anywhere ever had a message that wasn't a Barnum statement.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I'll need a sample first... just to be sure.
Buyer be aware yeah? Don't want to get ripped off.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm in the forum I'm not in the form of debate area.
The entire server is called debate art... I'd say that was your first clue. Is there a reason if you dislike being intruded upon by atheists specifically so much why you don't find a server specifically for theists? Then at least there would be no arguing with you that you shouldn't expect to be bothered by skepticism.
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At the very least it seems unreasonable to be surprised when you are asked since tat is the purpose of a debate site.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm not required to provide evidence to anyone in order for me to have a religious or spiritual practice
Agreed but in that case don't be surprised when others remain unconvinced and maybe don't frequent public debate forums if you have objections to explaining your position.
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@Polytheist-Witch
That faith based beliefs have a problem with sufficient evidence isn't really an opinion poly.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I can appreciate your position poly but you are not yourself nonreligious and I'm not sure why you are so offended at the idea that from the outside all these magical thinking mindsets seem very similar.
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@Polytheist-Witch
So it would fall under I don't know paranormal, occult, metaphysical let's find some other word besides religion which I'm sure you shove all those into religion too even though none of them involve a f****** god.
Religion does not require a deity but I can accept that one could genuinely believe in medium ship without being specifically religious. Still faith based belief is as faith based belief does and spirituality the occult and metaphysics suffer from the same problem of insufficient evidence that religion does.
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@oromagi
It is true that humans are not known for willingly abdicating power. It is an unhealthy fixation.
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@Tradesecret
These account for many things - like the principles of logic, or perhaps science.
Their efficacy in solving problems and improving the human condition are proof of their efficacy. Religious and superstitious thinking do not have the same track record. Quite the opposite in fact.
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@Tradesecret
What is amusing about it? Atheist's essentially do the same thing.
You all have the same standard of evidence. Faith. How could you possibly distinguish whose faith is correct? More data required. Atheism doesn't require you to accept anything on faith. Or at least if you want to be pedantic and define faith so broadly that every belief is faith then at the least there is a difference between the kind of faith where someone asks you why you believe that and you give good reasons and evidence and the kind of faith where someone asks you why you believe and you are forced to say "I just have faith"
Gee - holiness means what? Acting in accordance with what is right. I would liken it to justice.
So if an atheist does what is right and just they are holy atheists? If not then your definition needs a little work.
superstitious is trusting in the mysterious underpinnings of irrationality. Things like magic, or rituals, or the ilk.
At least from an outside perspective that does sound awfully like religion.
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@949havoc
Are people hurt because some must eat beans, while another has prime rib?
No they are hurt when both beans and prime rib are overproduced and thrown away without ever being eaten by anyone because they cannot afford to purchase it and then it rots in a land fill producing methane which contributes to the ongoing ecological disaster.
That one rents a studio apartment, while another owns 30-room house on acreage?
No they are hurt when a person who owns a thirty room house evict them from their studio apartment even though he owns many houses and apartments that he doesn't personally live in or need.
That one has a paved private road while another has an unimproved road?
The roads as the currently exist hurt everyone. Public transportation would be far preferable along with city planning that does not shackle people to their cars or be effectively prevented from reaching most destinations.
You ignore that ambition gets in the way of "sharing", even if that ambition leaves room for a former of each of the conditions noted above to be charitable to the latter of each condition, but does not equalize the commodities.
I'm not even asking for everyone to get equal everything. I'd be pretty happy with to each by their need and from each by their ability. That doesn't sound especially unfair to me and ambition doesn't have to be tied up in money.
No one is "hurt," whatever you mean by that, but there is definitively a lack of equity. What is the justification for equity if the latter folks are not as ambitious, and do not plan and execute as the former folks? Is ambition, itself, an evil?
People are hurt by overproduction and withholding of products necessary to life from people because it is more profitable than letting them have whatever would be thrown away. People are hurt by starvation and homelessness. Specifically hurt by those who throw away food and withhold shelter empty of any occupation and design architecture that is specifically meant to prevent the homeless from seeking shelter and rest on or near public facilities. Ambition is not the enemy and capitalism isn't either. Not really. The enemy is the capitalist state where executive decisions are determined by profit.
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@RationalMadman
The biggest potential problem with any political system is that there will be people involved and people exploit each other kind of a lot. Communism is a theoretical goal and so far as I know never achieved. You are correct that in every instance where a society called itself socialist or communist a stateless society was never achieved and in some cases very real totalitarianism infiltrated the system.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Myself I am disinterested in punishing the guilty but in protecting the innocent.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Please don't put words in my mouth. I am using the socratic method. I am asking you questions to see where your truth lies
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@Tradesecret
There is a difference between holiness and superstition.
Like a measurable one or is this just meant in the spirit of a bald assertion?
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@Tradesecret
It is amusing to me to see theist acuse each other of having false religion. Just a personal opinion.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Do you think people should be punished for allowing others to die through greed and neglect?
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@BigPimpDaddy
It would hurt other people who also need food, shelter, public works and produced goods.
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@BigPimpDaddy
I don't feel like people need to share everything. Just food, shelter, medicine, public works and the means of production.
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You shouldn't stand next to Leopold Tchaikovsky in a thunderstorm because he us a really good conductor.
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@EtrnlVw
@Polytheist-Witch
If you really want to prove wrong simply provide what I originally asked for. Any information provided by any spiritual source that is not Barnum statement.
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Not eating corn flakes is breakfast the same way not believing in god(s) is a religion.
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@bmdrocks21
And your plan is to let all murderers roam free to kill again! Yay!
My plan is to do whatever reduces the instances of murder effectively without stripping anyone of human rights and dignity. If that could be accomplished by letting murderers "run free" as you put it then I would be in favor of that solution.
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Just by the way ever seen Psyche? Great comedy and the most effective psychic on television.
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@EtrnlVw
Hey did you know that police sometimes resort to 'lie detector' machines to solve a case? I only mention because that is bad science too. There are no lie detector machines and there are no mediums, at least there seems to be no efficacy to either one. What can I say cops, not being scientists themselves, are sometimes taken in by bad science.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Baiting is about site rules. These are not debate questions especially since mediumship is not a religious practice.
Is it baiting to ask a serious question? Even if you don't expect a satisfying answer? And if it isn't religious then what is it? It certainly isn't science,math or phylosophy.
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@949havoc
Why don't you come back when you're certain? And what is your interest in harming any facet of society? Land ownership is a fact of life, particularly now. But, if your lalaland says sovereignty and land ownership is not a fact of life, and you can squat wherever you need to pee, that's your choice. Or do you, as usual, blame the universe?
The universe is indifferent. It is people whose claims of land ownership are enforced by the threat of state sanctioned police violence and that I don't have interest in harming anyone that is why I am not in favor of land ownership.
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@SkepticalOne
Apparently, the problem isn't in the message but the audience. Oh, and Havoc thinks his cornflake post is on the level with works of TS Elliot. ;-)
Well isn't he a wicked thing then!?!
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@949havoc
That you interpret poorly is entirely on you and I have no inclination to correct
Death of the author it is. With no info the contrary I can interpret it any way that seems okish to me.
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@RationalMadman
Why doesn't a hamster deserve its right to life and protection? Why only a human?
There is no objective reason. Only my self interest as a human makes this true. Humans take care of each other and sometimes hamsters. Hamsters never take care of humans in the same way. That doesn't make them intrinsically less worthy but it sure makes them poor socialists. Lol
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@Polytheist-Witch
A: Where you do you get that information.T: MythsA: Well aren't you are retard moron with no common sense, a murderer, child abuser and should have no right to your religion.T: OK. Or if you say what you should which is fuck you, your a violent child molesters who deserves to die.
Wow... I usually just answer that I am unconvinced by myths... who called you a murderer for having unsupported beliefs? I could talk to them if you like. Try to explain the difference between being gullible and being a murderer. Totally different issues for sure.
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