Total posts: 7,093
So you don't believe in the power of a plurality. You believe in the authority of an oligarchy of elites. That's saddening to hear.
It is sad that the elites do currently excercise oligarchical authority because we do not have a plurality owing in part to the victim blaming of consumers.
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@Greyparrot
Then you should accept the will of the consumer that wants to purchase petroleum. No matter how lowly or how stupid you think that consumer is.Stop over-riding the decisions of the consumers. Stop asking investors to ignore the will of consumers because they might make a profit by supplying consumers with the products that they desire.
In a world where the auto industry didn't sabotage public transportation and influence city planning to make cars a necessity and lobby for legislation that blamed the pedestrian for crossing the streets rather than the motorist for driving in a way that could hurt someone then the will of the consumer might be different and do not forget that the largest consumers of fossil fuels are the corporations themselves not the consumer.
The consumer has no power to effect change individually. Only in solidarity can we effect change but so long as some people are convinced that consumerism is the fault of the consumer rather than the production that necessitates consumerism we do not have solidarity. Corperations however have vast power, organization and influence through their vast wealth. Corporations could solve world hunger, homelessness and global warming with or without our consent if they cared about human welfare. They choose not to. Corporations are clearly not the answer and so by extension the capitalist system that not only allows but necessitates corporate interests to control nearly every aspect of life is also not the answer.
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@Greyparrot
This is the data proving most consumers don't think global warming is an existential crisis.
Global warming cannot be combated by common consumers. It is a production issue and it exists across a mind boggling number of production lines. Sure fossil fuels are a problem but so is factory farming cows and overproduction of food stuffs which produce methane. It is also not the only example of corporate interests doing everything in their power to continue harming society with their products in the name of profit.
Lead paint and pipes, pfoa chemicals, tobacco products, prescription opioids the list goes on and on and on. Corporations do not care about human beings they only care about profit. They also incentivize humans to behave with a similar cavalier disregard as you have illustrated.
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@Greyparrot
History is rife with examples of various totalitarian centrally planned economies where the will of the lowly consumer is over-ruled, to great detriment, suffering and disaster, usually resulting in massive loss of human life and untold suffering.
I agree which is why I am opposed to totalitarianism in all its forms including being opposed to the dictator that is profitability.
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@Greyparrot
In the end it doesn't even matter if global warming is real (it is) if BP believes it is and prioritizes profits over what they believe will save the world. This just proves that profit incentives are disconnected entirely from what is good for humanity.
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@Greyparrot
Let's imagine a hypothetical company. Let's say it is a petroleum company and that they have known about global warming and the devastating impact on the environment it will have since before the Reagan administration. It would be far better for humanity if they were to acknowledge the problem and try to solve it making, as you say, vast amounts of profits going from point A to point B. Now let's realize that I'm not talking about a fictional company I'm talking about BP who repeatedly espouse in their literature their commitment to addressing global warming but has not actually done much more than they to shift blame to the consumer because they estimate they can make a more vast sum by staying at a very dangerous point A than they estimate they would make in the process of getting to a much safer point B.
They are not incentivized to save the world so they are not.
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@Greyparrot
I'm asking you to acknowledge the reality that profit drives people to reduce rape rates, because that's what people will willingly buy.
Profit is driven by whatever is profitable good or bad. That something is profitable to some party is no guarantee that it is a worthwhile endeavor.
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@Greyparrot
Which is why we have a Tort lawyer for every 100 people in America. It's a thriving business.
Which suffers from the same potential for being incentivized by profit before the wellbeing of others. Now we are just talking about buisness malpractice instead of rape.
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@Greyparrot
Capitalism fundamentally works in favor of society when you look at it this way.
I am under no obligation to squint and turn my head sideways while pretending capitalism makes a pretty picture. I am able to look it directly in its ugly face.
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@Greyparrot
But the person needs to own the capital to provide 300 million dollars worth of food to people.
It would not be a violation to give 300 million away but it would be to keep it. If you have more wealth than most people make over the course of their entire lives and others are starving to death then you are an actual monster.
Then if you cant make the case that he has any influence on the rate of rape, then capitalism has no fundamental effect either. What he desires is irrelevant to the actual world effects. Therefore your OP is meaningless.
Unless it caused one to give women bad advice or if it caused one to lobby the government for legislation more favorable to rape. That would be bad and you would be greatly incentivized to do so. Hopefully this imaginary whistle company does no such thing but corporate interests don't have the best track record of putting people before profits. Perhaps if we took profit out of the equation they would be more trustworthy.
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@Greyparrot
My OP says nothing about creating rapists only that if one's financial security relies on continued high rates of rape then it is hard to genuinely want rape rates to go down.
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@FLRW
Kenneth Copeland is a shuckster and con artist who takes advantage of the sick the desperate the gullible and the elderly. He doesn't produce anything and pays no taxes. He is the perfect capitalist. One must admire how brazen he is about it even.
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@Greyparrot
Is it a human rights violation to provide 300 million dollars worth of food to people?
Well if you want to talk about a completely seperate unrelated topic no it is not a human rights violation to provide 300 million dollars worth of food in and of itself but that is neither here nor there to the fact that it would still be a human rights violation to retain 300 million dollars afterwards unless there were no more hungry people.
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@Greyparrot
How exactly would a die presser go about creating rapists?
Not sure this is pertinent to the topic.
Your realize hundreds of thousands of businesses go bankrupt annually regardless of them wanting to break windows to create demand.Buggy whip manufacturers for instance. There are only so many windows you can break before tort law catches up with you.
Not sure what point you are trying to make but I suppose.
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@FLRW
No one need 300 million dollars and it is a human rights violation to collect so much wealth while many in the world are starving and homeless.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Unfortunately that is only one instance and a work around may exist for each question but the quiz does front load several questions from a capitalist viewpoint
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@EtrnlVw
How do you know that anything you describe about God would be conjecture?
Because I do not know anything about any god(s) including whether any even exist. That is literally what conjecture means. I know it would be conjecture because it is conjecture definitionally. In the same way I know a polygon with three sides is a triangle.
why do you feel you have no say in the equation?
I do have no say in what actually exists. It either does or does not and I don't think much of the omnipotence of a god who might be bent to my will rather than the other way around.
May I ask why you believe that? in your words, why would God be disinterested in what was created?
I do not know why such a being would be disinterested I only know that I see no sufficient evidence of divine intervention or supernatural occurrence of any kind.
2. Has a goal other than improving wellbeingDo you think your life is incapable of improving your well being? what do you consider well being, material comfort or self improvement?
What does this question have to do with any god(s) does it? In any case I will try to answer. I am capable of improving my wellbeing and the wellbeing of others if I am empathetic and willing to put in the effort. I consider wellbeing to be physical and mental but as I do not recognize any spiritual or supernatural I am unconcerned about so called spiritual wellbeing. It requires a level of physical comfort brought on by having ones physical needs met and ideally would encourage self improvement.
What if human suffering IS the course of human experience?
Humans do not cause earthquakes or droughts or childhood leukemia. Some subset of human suffering is human caused but I am most particularly concerned here with suffering that sees to come from the simple indifference of the universe.
So far you only told me what you think God WOULDN'T do or have, can you add anything you think God would have or do? perhaps be like?
So far as I can tell no god(s) do anything or ever have done anything.
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I found myself stymied in taking the quiz by its seeming presupposition behind some of the questions. Such as raising the tax on the rich. I am not so much in favor of that as simply not allowing anyone to attain more wealth than they can actually reasonably use in one lifetime in the first place.
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@zedvictor4
All systems are based upon natural hierarchy.
Why?
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@EtrnlVw
Incoming fable/conjecture.
IF some god(s) exist then my observations of the world tell me that they are either
IF some god(s) exist then my observations of the world tell me that they are either
1. Disinterested in human affairs entirely
2. Has a goal other than improving wellbeing
Or
3. Unable to effect the course of human events sufficient to minimize human suffering particularly from non human sources (should you personally believe they wouldn't interfere with the will of rapists and murderers because of the myth of freewill)
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@EtrnlVw
We are going with what YOU think God would be like and what they would want
That would be pure unfounded conjecture by necessity. I can tell you fables if you like but I would be honest about having made the story up.
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@ebuc
In their mind unbridled/unencumbered capitalism will lead to Utopia on Earth
I'm not sure that is true. In fact I think it more likely that the majority simply believe in the myth of the meritocracy and that poor people should be poor because of their naturally poorer quality. That capitalism separates the seed from the chaff never realizing that to the ultra wealthy they themselves are the chaff and even then I cannot characterize this as any particular interlocutors argument it is just the sense I get from many conservatives.
In any case I cannot justify protecting the assets of the ultra wealthy at the cost of human lives and dignity regardless of your reasons.
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@zedvictor4
Either the beginning was caused or it wasn't.....Same applies to both Universe and GOD.
Well stated
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@zedvictor4
We throw away enough food to feed every hungry person in the world and the garbage is creating an ecological disaster. I merely suggest that instead we feed that good to people saving them from starvation and saving the planet from the tons of methane that food would otherwise create. If that is a dream within the current system then the system is broken and undesirable
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@Dr.Franklin
We could provide everyone with nutritious food at little or no cost conveniently while also banning the practice of fast food chains targeting low income neighborhoods with their advertising and locations.
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@BigPimpDaddy
do you now agree my test results were bullshit?
I couldn't actually say one way or the other without more information
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@BigPimpDaddy
do you now agree that the test results were bullshit?and that im not fascist?
I never called you a fascist though I would like to correct your understanding of what a fascist is and clear up any misconceptions you might have about socialism having the same core goals. I'm fine with you self identifying or not identifying at all.
I do wonder how you intend to enable laissez-faire capitalism without the threat of state organized violence such as that provided by a militarized police force... since you don't believe in violent suppression of political opposition.
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@BigPimpDaddy
You can tell when someone is going to strawman when they have So you believe as the first words
Just following the example you set in post 126
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@BigPimpDaddy
Human nature wont let that happenSo you believe that if dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy is not imposed then we will descend naturally into chaos?no.
Great at least we agree on something.
YOUR NOTHING UNIQUE IVE MET YOUR FOLK MANY TIMES BEFORE
It seems odd then that you don't seem to be able to grasp any of the concepts I am trying to discuss with you.
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@BigPimpDaddy
what does social humanist even mean?
Why don't you stop trying to identify me with a group and just get to know me. Perhaps I am an individual with my own unique opinions and politics.
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@BigPimpDaddy
I would prefer not to weaponize anything. I would in fact like to see the state stop being weaponized against the people. I worry that this might require bloody revolution but I really don't want that. I just want to see everyone fed and housed. Now is there a reason you keep ignoring my post? The one that goes
Human nature wont let that happen
So you believe that if dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy is not imposed then we will descend naturally into chaos?
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@BigPimpDaddy
Human nature wont let that happen
So you believe that if dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy is not imposed then we will descend naturally into chaos?
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@BigPimpDaddy
No I'm not a big fan of stalin either. Or any totalitarian. I do wish I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself like this. If you cannot stomach going through this conversation without labeling me I suppose I would accept the label of social humanist. Just understand that that means what I mean when I use those words not whatever preconceptions you may have about them. I may not fit neatly into any box you have lying around in your head.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Human nature wont let that happen
So you believe that if dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy is not imposed then we will descend naturally into chaos?
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@BigPimpDaddy
I'm not sure I like the idea of anarchy. I don't think stateless is necessarily synonymous with anarchy. I don't think everyone should just do whatever they want regardless of the cost to others for example. I am also not certain that I do advocate for total statelessness. The state can be useful for implementing social programs.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Those are the actual definitions as provided by Google. So far this is not a semantic argument. I am simply in favor of feeding and housing everyone.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Human nature wont let that happen
So you believe that if dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy is not imposed then we will descend naturally into chaos?
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@BigPimpDaddy
I am not optimistic about the idea of a utopia either. No society is perfect. Don't let the impossibility of a perfect society stop you from improving the society you have.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Why must everyone be employed? I don't intend to take any money from anyone. Money is a made up concept. What I want is for monetary wealth to be divorced from a human beings survival and happiness entirely.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Alternative to what?
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@Theweakeredge
But would arguing for one system completely independent of the other even work? There are clear examples of socialism in America (Food banks and the like), and a lot of people like those in isolation but not it as a whole (which is understandable) Similar to my last question, when does there get to be too much of capitalism or socialism? Is there even a balance? Should we prefer only one side?
I know this was not directed at me but capitalism and socialism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Capitalism is too much when it begins to become compulsory. When it begins adversely affecting who gets to eat and who gets a house and who deserves life saving medicine and who should be incarcerated. It should not be responsible for our infrastructure or for generating executive policy. Also there is no free market absent government regulation. Government regulation is what guarantees private ownership of the means of production by a few wealthy individuals and without the threat of homelessness and destitution enforced by police violence (whether this threat is implicit or explicit) no such ownership would be enforceable. No one chooses to starve or be subjected to exposure.
We must stop locking up the food and abolish the land lord class. Free market can squeeze in wherever else it isn't hurting anything once we accomplish that.
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@3RU7AL
ARE HUMANS UNDECIPHERABLE ENIGMAS OR PROGRAMMABLE BLACK BOXES?
Yes
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@EtrnlVw
If we grant for a moment that some god(s) exist we have still not said anything about what some god(s) are like what they would want or if they would have any impact on anyone's life.
Turn and turn about let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that it could not be proven, shown and demonstrated that any god(s) exists, what implications would arise for you personally?
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@BigPimpDaddy
I think perhaps part of the problem is that you seem not to actually understand what either fascism or socialism actually are.
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy.
so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
- a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
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@BigPimpDaddy
Do you believe in the forcible suppression of political opposition and that society and the economy should be strictly regimented? Do you believe in a hierarchical system where one individual wields supreme executive power?
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@BigPimpDaddy
Why do you keep changing the subject? You still have not qualified your very first post.
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@BigPimpDaddy
LIFE ISNT FAIR
This is not under dispute. I am aware life us unfair. That is no reason not to promote human wellbeing whenever possible, including prioritizing human wellbeing over profit or political power.
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@BigPimpDaddy
I would think money...... would be important to progress......right?
No. Progress is important to progress. Money is not necessary to progress or we could never have progressed to the point of developing substitutionary economies. Please think about what you are saying before you say it.
Also progress is not synonymous with the greater good. The "progress" we are now "enjoying" will soon render our planet uninhabitable to humans.
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In the same way western capitalism claims to be democratic when in fact profits, not the will of the people, determine policy.
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