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On a related, funny note, the web address for the commission on presidential debates is debates.org because this websites dead ancestor still owns the debate.org url
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@Greyparrot
Do you have a link to that story about the 20 out of 30 children that identified as trans after the teacher indoctrinated them?
They came out as LGBT, not Trans and I heard about it here. And before anyone jumps down my throat, yes I acknowledge this particular incident could be made up or out of context somehow. I also acknowledge that the entire purpose of this account is to persuade people into a certain position. But I’ve seen hundreds of similar anecdotes including two in my personal life…can’t all be made up. At this particular school I saw the videos myself of kindergarten age kids waving pride flags in the hall
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@SkepticalOne
This addresses the state of our discussion fairly well. You rejecting accepted fact does not change accepted fact. Schools teach facts. If you don't like the facts, that's a 'you problem', not a school issue.
Post #4 of you asserting your position is a “fact” while ignoring an argument to the contrary
For what its worth, I'm not sure why you need me to accept your beliefs. If you are so sure about your position why are you wasting time with a random dude on the internet? Get out of this dark corner of the web and let the experts know you are their superior! ;-)
I don’t need you to accept my beliefs. I didn’t consider this conversation to be a waste of time until you stopped engaging and started trolling. But even now I still don’t think it’s a waste of time, it’s very amusing to me that you keep coming back despite totally ignoring the argument I’ve made. What are you hoping to gain? You can always just refute my argument you know
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@SkepticalOne
Your main objection seems to be a failure of public schools is that they teach facts (you dont agree with). A functionally equivalent position would be 'a failure of schools is that they teach about the big bang/heliocentrism/evolution'.
People being born in the “wrong” bodies and actually being a member of the opposite sex is not a fact. It’s much much closer to a religious position than a scientific one—a pre existing soul, fundamentally separate to the body, is male or female in character and can be placed in the wrong body, which must be modified to suit it. I gave you an argument for why none of this makes sense and you haven’t addressed it at all, despite directing three subsequent posts to me. It seems like you don’t want to take the time to try and deconstruct my argument but still want to feel like you got the last word.
No. The present accepted understanding of gender has not occurred without substantiation. Ie. The burden has been met
You realize this argument can be used against any social change….right?
2002: “The present understanding of marriage has not occurred without substantiation. Ie. the burden has been met. So no, I won’t engage with your argument for why this violates equal protection under the law.”
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@SkepticalOne
Yea, I don't think continuing this conversation would be beneficial to either of us. You want your position to be as justified as gender fluidity but it isn't, and I dont have to treat it as such.
If you ever want to have a serious engagement with the other side, feel free to respond to my post whenever. I don't think "my position is justified and yours isn't, and no I won't say why or justify my position because I assert that mine is the status quo and the status quo is always right!" is a serious response, particularly not from a self described skeptic. To give you one last chance, I've copy/pasted my post below:
"You should be able to justify your positions on their own merits instead of simply claiming that the "experts" are on your side. My position in short is that gender dysphoria is a body image disorder, in which individuals are uncomfortable in their own bodies and believe that if they were born the opposite gender they would be comfortable in their bodies. People can not be born in the "wrong" bodies because for all intents and purposes, your body is you, a boy or a girl born in your place would not be you but instead would be someone else. You can make changes to your body, but the changes made in an attempt to change sex are not positive ones but ones that limit a persons potential or actively harm them (sterilize them, block puberty in prime growing years, mutilate their genitals/sex organs into organs that do not function and make them ill.) There is literally no other body image disorder in which we accept that the persons viewpoint is valid and try to change their body to match. There are people who for some reason want a healthy limb removed, imagine if physicians agreed to remove them. Imagine if an anorexic or bulimic 14 year old girl was given liposuction or put on a weight loss diet. This is the same as removing a young girls breasts to try to make her a "man" or giving a teenaged boy estrogen.
The liberal position is that the above makes me a monster because unlike those other disorders trans people are ACTUALLY born into the wrong sex, and their sex doesn't match their gender identity. I believe that sex and gender are inherently linked (if indeed there even is a difference) and brute forcing your body into a pale and sad imitation of the opposite sex never works. The liberal position, in my view, is fundamentally incoherent because it simultaneously argues that gender identity is unrelated to sex in that an individual can choose/"discover" their gender identity but at the same time it is imperative that we allow children to transition as young as possible so that they can look as close as possible to...the opposite *sex*, as in the secondary sex characteristics derived from biology. The entire thing presupposes valid and consistent definitions of "man and woman" in the first place, otherwise no one could be born in the "wrong" body, but this takes us back to the gender binary. The ideal situation for a person suffering from gender dysphoria is that they come to terms with the body as it is and foster a positive self identity on that basis instead of chasing the impossible. TheMorningStar, being smarter than me on philosophy and actually having experienced this stuff first hand put it much better. But since you won't accept a link to a discussion on this website, that's my position.
For a number of complicated reasons, including but not limited to an ongoing societal fixation on identity and the elevation of "oppressed" identities, identifying as trans is a growing trend among the young."
Unfortunately for our conversation, I've reached my limit of absurdity. Equating discussions of gender fluidity to 'teaching anal sex' or 'sterilized or mutilated children' has sabotaged a sincere conversation between us.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about:
"I started transitioning when I was 16. A child. I had undiagnosed BPD, but no one bothered to screen me. If they did they would have seen that I viewed transition as a way to throw myself away and try again. That I was traumatized by my childhood. That I self harmed. But they didn’t. They said “congrats” and handed me a referral. By the time I realized I was more depressed than ever before, I had already had a mastectomy and two years on testosterone. I was thrust into adulthood broken.
I went through the detransition process, quit T for over 5 years, and here at 27 I sleep 14 hours a day, my hair falls out, and I can’t stop gaining weight. I decided I had had enough and got a full medical work up done.
My lab work revealed I have almost no female hormones. I will never have children. I have PCOS. I have high cholesterol. I have cysts all over my ovaries. My PCP had to submit my results to a specialist because they were so unusually terrible, even for PCOS.
I will be on weekly injections, diabetes medication, and who knows what else for the rest of my life. And at this point I have no idea if I will ever get back to feeling energetic, out of pain, and a little bit normal.
When I signed those papers I was not informed, of any of this. I was a child, allowed to destroy my body permanently, under the assurance that I can always change my mind, and that it’s a beautiful, harmless process. The informed consent model is a lie, because we are just guinea pigs to a medical experiment, my life is permanently afflicted, and I was not informed.
I only wish my experience could mean anything, but all it will ever be is internet harassment and an empty feeling. The medical community can’t listen, and the trans community won’t.
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@SkepticalOne
I have no burden to uphold the status quo. It is the status quo because that burden has already been met.
Not to be too much of a dick but this is probably the most anti intellectual sentiment I’ve ever seen. Believe in and don’t question whatever the existing orthodoxy happens to be
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@SkepticalOne
I have no burden to uphold the status quo. It is the status quo because that burden has already been met. If you want to challenge it, you have your burden in front of you and your audience should be the scientific community....Not the same at all. If the positions of the Catholic Church could be substantiated, then your scenario would be analogous.
I gave a well reasoned, two paragraph explanation for why I think the "gender affirming" position can't be substantiated and you completely ignored it. This conversation isn't a competition, maybe 5 or 6 people are even reading it. It's not going to move the needle in either direction, there's no "winning" or "losing." The only goal between the two of us should be to have a productive conversation, and going "well I don't have the burden of proof so there!" as if this is a formal debate is not productive. If you don't think conversing with me further on this subject is beneficial to you, just say so.
People have deeply held beliefs. Many of those peoples deeply held beliefs are different than yours, but we all have to live together. Forcing your deeply held beliefs on peoples children is playing with fire, particularly when the consequences of those deeply held beliefs if applied to other peoples children = those children are sterilized or mutilated.
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@TheMorningsStar
I think that something important to consider is that what people point to in children to determine if they are trans relies a bit on sexism. I am sure that most people in their mid 20s and older remember growing up with tomboys being a thing. These were girls that did not fall within the stereotype of what it meant to be a girl, instead doing things that were "what boys do". I have actually seen numerous people that would have been called a tomboy when I was growing up being called trans by those around them now.
Yes exactly! People attempting to transition are trying to transition into stereotypes of cisgendered people. So if they are transitioning to become a man they will want a deeper voice, little breast tissue, wearing "boy" clothes and doing "boy" things. Things have gone full circle and now instead of abandoning gender roles we are codifying gender roles to the point that you must change your body if you don't fit them--ie, the problem if you don't fit into a stereotype is YOU! Like you noted in the other thread this also leads to ridiculous questions like if a woman with a deeper voice is less of a woman or if a short man is less of a man. Or perhaps I am less of a man because I like butterflies and they are for "girls." Can't believe "just let people be who they are" is the right wing position but here we are
It is also undeniable that gender and sex are tied together, and so we must ask how it is that gender can be a spectrum or fluid when sex isn't. What, precisely, makes it so? I would argue that there isn't an actual way to show that gender is fluid without either presupposing it is or using sexist thinking about gender roles.
An excellent question, hopefully someone on the other side of this issues tries to answer it. I hadn't thought to put it this way before, but you're right--even the advocates of this stuff acknowledge that gender and sex are linked, but what makes one fluid and one fixed?
We don't have a neutral field reaching this conclusion, we have a field that has become so politically infected that the works coming out of it are all suspect creating waves, and from that we have different academics forced to adhere to those ideals or be found to be some kind of 'phobic' and lose their position. One cannot simply point to an academic field without also understanding the state of said field, and when you do that when it comes to gender studies and sociology you will find that it is all highly suspect.
I'm pretty suspicious of academia as a whole at this point, sadly. I don't know what the solution is
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@SkepticalOne
This is where our reasoning diverges. Your (or my) opinion is not equivalent to that of experts informed by evidence. I'll trust their conclusions.
You should be able to justify your positions on their own merits instead of simply claiming that the "experts" are on your side. My position in short is that gender dysphoria is a body image disorder, in which individuals are uncomfortable in their own bodies and believe that if they were born the opposite gender they would be comfortable in their bodies. People can not be born in the "wrong" bodies because for all intents and purposes, your body is you, a boy or a girl born in your place would not be you but instead would be someone else. You can make changes to your body, but the changes made in an attempt to change sex are not positive ones but ones that limit a persons potential or actively harm them (sterilize them, block puberty in prime growing years, mutilate their genitals/sex organs into organs that do not function and make them ill.) There is literally no other body image disorder in which we accept that the persons viewpoint is valid and try to change their body to match. There are people who for some reason want a healthy limb removed, imagine if physicians agreed to remove them. Imagine if an anorexic or bulimic 14 year old girl was given liposuction or put on a weight loss diet. This is the same as removing a young girls breasts to try to make her a "man" or giving a teenaged boy estrogen.
The liberal position is that the above makes me a monster because unlike those other disorders trans people are ACTUALLY born into the wrong sex, and their sex doesn't match their gender identity. I believe that sex and gender are inherently linked (if indeed there even is a difference) and brute forcing your body into a pale and sad imitation of the opposite sex never works. The liberal position, in my view, is fundamentally incoherent because it simultaneously argues that gender identity is unrelated to sex in that an individual can choose/"discover" their gender identity but at the same time it is imperative that we allow children to transition as young as possible so that they can look as close as possible to...the opposite *sex*, as in the secondary sex characteristics derived from biology. The entire thing presupposes valid and consistent definitions of "man and woman" in the first place, otherwise no one could be born in the "wrong" body, but this takes us back to the gender binary. The ideal situation for a person suffering from gender dysphoria is that they come to terms with the body as it is and foster a positive self identity on that basis instead of chasing the impossible. TheMorningStar, being smarter than me on philosophy and actually having experienced this stuff first hand put it much better. But since you won't accept a link to a discussion on this website, that's my position.
For a number of complicated reasons, including but not limited to an ongoing societal fixation on identity and the elevation of "oppressed" identities, identifying as trans is a growing trend among the young.
And? Diagnosis of autism increased after we realized it was a thing too. It is hardly a surprising observation.
There is a slight comparison to be made between the two in that "autism" in the past would have referred to profoundly autistic children who couldn't even speak whereas now it's an entire spectrum that encompasses that all the way to kids who are just a little socially awkward. However there is good reason to believe that even when accounting for this, autism/aspersers has increased in prevalence. But autism is diagnosed through a doctor, it's not a self identification so certainly the number of trans people exploding by 20 times is at least somewhat a cultural or social thing. I'm completely open to the idea that gender dysphoria has actually increased in prevalence due to some environmental (not cultural) factor. But that doesn't mean it isn't a disorder and that mutilating the body is the right way to fight it. What's your explanation for how it clusters in peer groups?
Point me to another sexually dimorphic species where 1 in 50 individuals are born in the "wrong" bodies. What does that even mean? Also on a semi related note, at what age do you think the following should be permitted:
Voting
Driving
Drinking
Joining the Military
Buying a gun
Working full time
Dropping out of school
Are you suggesting I should make my own kids? We've done that, although, they can't really be considered kids anymore!
Then try to imagine how you'd feel if the public schools had a system whereby they could be confirmed in the Catholic Church, take communion, and change their names to a Saints name without your knowledge.
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@Greyparrot
You would still pay near that amount if school choice was passed..
Yeah but I would be able to use it to pay for a school of my choice instead of just where I happen to live
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@SkepticalOne
I am fine with the framework as you quoted above. I think where everyone freaks out is that they view these discussions as some type of invitation or proselytizing (Do you accept transgenderism into your heart as your lord and savior?), but that is not how I understand this conversation. It is simply making children aware gender and orientation is fluid. This is information that is good for them in that it gives insights into other people and maybe themselves too.
But a lot of people, myself included, don't think that gender is fluid. And we control more states than you do, and after November we will be in an even stronger position as more state legislatures and governorships flip. Why is forcing this issue so important to you? Do you not see how this scorched Earth approach could result in some seriously negative consequences?
I didn't decide reality. It is how it is, and that is what we teach. Another appeal to consequences.... I don't think education should stop including the world as it is just because some don't understand and/or don't want to understand it.
Pretty arrogant to insist that this is "reality" without even addressing the opposing argument. Did you even read the post linked and the ensuing discussion? I think that reality is that a trans woman will never be a woman, and a trans man will never be a man. At most they can brute force their bodies into a pale imitation, with incredibly devastating side effects. Also appealing to consequences is appealing to reality, which forces people to make tough decisions.
So you know where I am coming from: My sister's family is conservative. Her husband is military and comes from a military family. My and my sister's parents are conservative. My brother in law's family is conservative. They live in a military town in Oklahoma...a conservative town in a conservative state. My nephew is trans. There was no indoctrination into transgenderism. It is simply who he is. The point being, 'Leaving kids alone' doesn't prevent transgenderism, but it does hobble insight and support for transgender kids. Education is supposed to be for the benefit of society, and Trans folks are part of that.
How do you know that? 2.1% of Gen Z adults identify as trans, double that of millennials, quadruple that of Gen X and twenty times that of previous generations. We also know from studying the issue that trans identification clusters within friend groups, especially among young girls who in the past may have dealt with their body image issues through becoming anorexic or a similar disorder. Clearly *something* happened/is happening. I've seen a lot of school districts have the policy of "transitioning" children without their parents consent, and once the child has been "socially" transitioned they are recommended to counselors who give them drugs. Not everyone subscribes to your world view. If you want to teach kids about sex/gender identity at an early age, make your own, otherwise don't be surprised when there's severe pushback
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@TheMorningsStar
I honestly feel like if I had gone through an affirming therapy that I would have likely offed myself as I would never have felt right in my body.
This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. It's entirely possible that some degree of "gender affirming care" is better than just letting the dysphoric person languish totally untreated, but it would be far inferior to a treatment regime that concludes with being comfortable in the body you were born with. It's not possible to change your body into the opposite sex, at most you can brute force it into a pale imitation, a cruel joke. From my experience trans people tend to by high IQ but often autistic or OCD so deep down they have to know that they're never as woman or man as someone born that way, even if growing "breasts" or whatever temporarily scratches an itch. Long term it isn't a solution to the real problem
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@SkepticalOne
What you found doesn't support the objection/fear 'kindergartners are being taught about anal sex'. Kindergartners are not being taught anal sex.
Here is something else I found about California's sex ed framework:
"The framework tells teachers that students in kindergarten can identify as transgender and offers tips for how to talk about that, adding “the goal is not to cause confusion about the gender of the child but to develop an awareness that other expressions exist. It gives tips for discussing masturbation with middle-schoolers, including telling them it is not physically harmful, and for discussing puberty with transgender teens that creates “an environment that is inclusive and challenges binary concepts about gender.”
Maybe we can recenter this discussion...what do you think is age appropriate for grade schoolers? Keep in mind how dumb as shit little kids are. In my view, talking about stuff like gender identity or how you can "transition" with a young child is a problem because kids can easily be led astray, and being led astray on your gender identity is a huge problem given what the "treatment" can be. I don't want my son told that he can become a girl, or that some people we call boys might not actually be boys, because I don't think it's possible for a boy to become a girl or vice versa. You may disagree and we can talk about it. But I believe that gender is binary (TheMorningStar makes an excellent argument for the view I share starting here: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7450-put-your-unpopular-opinions-here-and-someone-who-disagrees-will-debate-you?page=8&post_number=195) What right have you to decide for me what my children are taught on this subject, and how can you expect there not to be a response that potentially threatens the public school system? Just leave the kids alone and we wouldn't have this problem. Is talking about transgenderism to elementary schoolers so important? why? Cant we just focus on reading and writing...
You nailed it. African Americans had more rights after being freed than they had in the 20's. The progression has been anything but smooth.
Have you ever read the slave narratives from the 1930s? The federal government had a new deal program where they went and interviewed ex slaves in their 80s and 90s who were still alive in the '30s. It was sad because a lot of them had a relatively positive view of slavery and thought that the "freedom" experienced in the majority of their life was worse because of how terrible society was at that time. Being born a slave, having to be an adult through the nadir of race relations, then suffering the great depression in your old age had to suck.
My pet theory on why this happened (other than the obvious of people taking out their humiliation of being so thoroughly defeated on a less powerful victim) is a forgotten demographic change. It seems crazy to us because society has become so secularized but the KKK really really hated Catholics too. Because of mass immigration from Europe starting in the 1840s or so by ~1880 or so Anglo whites had lost their demographic majority to more recent immigrants who had much higher birthrates. I think the transformation of America from basically a slaveholding ethnostate of British Isles descended peoples to a hodegpodge of Europeans caused a lot of people to absolutely lose their shit. It's happening again with immigrants outside of Europe and their descendants but people aren't flipping out as much, likely because it already happened before even if nobody really remembers this. The cultural framework is already there
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@RationalMadman
Molestation is possibly far more common in private, religious schools than public ones. However, it stays 'hush hush'.
It’s possible that smart predators sniff out gaps in the law like the ones mentioned in your article and take advantage yeah. Parents need to thoroughly vet schools before sending their kids there
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@coal
The size and scope of government is the largest problem with which we are confronted. That problem manifests at numerous different levels. The most egregious of the levels at which that problem manifests is by ceding essential liberty to technocrats, bureaucrats and so called "experts." There is no upper limit to the harm such technocratic, bureaucratic or other expertise-based alienations of liberty may cause.
I’ve always rolled my eyes are the argument that the post 2015 destruction of free speech on the internet is all good simply because it was private companies that did it. As if free speech isn’t a principle, that people value by itself
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@badger
Not to rain on your parade or anything. Who the fuck knows what's going on tbh. World is bendy. People who think they know anything need to take more drugs. Whole world opens up a Cheshire cat smile sometimes. What is even real lol.
There’s definitely more going on than just what we see…or I could just be trying to find a narrative where there isn’t one. We really have no way of knowing!
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@TheMorningsStar
Suffered from this dysphoria since the 5th grade, never even heard about transgenderism until a few years later. I sought non-affirming therapy (in contrast to the affirming therapy the trans rights movement advocates) and my life has improved quite a bit. Does that mean I don't still have dysphoric thoughts? Of course not, I still have them. Not as often and I don't let them control me anymore, but people with such mental health issues never really get rid of them permanently.
What’s interesting is that if we’re right (gender is a binary etc) you’re one of the only people who got ACTUAL gender affirming care…I’m glad you got the help you needed. Not to pry but since you’re already putting a lot out there…any idea why this happened to you, and what might be the cause in others? Any tips for how to prevent it?
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@SkepticalOne
It absolutely is an absurd and baseless objection. If anal sex were being taught to kindergartners it shouldn't be too difficult produce the offending curriculum or offending teachers. I doubt there is any curriculum or anyone who can still call themselves a teacher doing what you suggest...Well, first, a story about an email isn't substantiation. Secondly, discussing LGBTQ does not require discussing anal sex. This is nothing but an attempt to poison the well either by you or by whoever you got the story from.
I found this within 30 seconds of searching: https://nypost.com/2022/04/08/nj-kids-to-learn-about-gender-identity-under-sex-ed-curriculum/ and like I said I’ve seen dozens if not hundreds of similar anecdotes by now. I’m many things but I’m not a liar. And I know that it’s difficult to ascertain how common this is but…is it that hard to just be opposed to it when it does happen? Gender identity is not an appropriate conversation for six year olds. You can roll your eyes at right wingers morally panicking again (which we are known to do) while also looking at what’s proposed with a clear mind. For example Florida banned talking about sex for K-3 and people got extremely angry about it. Do you disagree with banning sex talk for kindergartners? If not….we agree
Whenever sex ed is taught it should include all aspects of human sexuality. I don't know when sex ed is age-appropriate exactly, but it should occur before the students have first-hand experience. This is an important issue because sexual ignorance leads to societal problems.
The thing is we know that sexuality is at least somewhat impacted by environmental circumstances. For example, we know that around half of gay men were molested as children compared with five percent of straight men. This means that childhood sexual trauma can impact your sexuality and people have all kinds of weird fetishes from the first sexual thing their mind fixates on.
People have intuitively understood this for a very long time which is why sex education has always been a hot button issue and why “PROTECT THE CHILDREN!” has always been a big thing. Believing that evangelical “abstinence only” position is as naive as believing that you can’t damage kids. Is it really so implausible to you that in the current zeitgeist of identity politics some teachers are more likely now than in the past to try and have inappropriate conversations with their students, or think that getting them to question their gender (something I, and many other parents, would strongly oppose for our kids) is a moral imperative?
There are fairly major historical events which have been left out of the history text books (eg. Tulsa race massacre) and the events that are covered can be heavily ethnocentric (eg. Thanksgiving) or leading to generally false impressions (eg. steady progress for the equality of African Americans since Reconstruction). The criticism is not about preventing current material from being banned, but of the current material being inadequate.
This is not related to the discussion of sexual and gender identity but okay. You can’t teach everything, in fact the average student is so dumb that I’m not convinced you can even teach history at all (as opposed to just propaganda). But we probably have a different view of what the school system should be for. I think trying to give everyone a liberal arts education is folly
Also how is that a false impression? The country definitely hasn’t gotten more racist since the civil war. Unless youre saying there was a nadir of race relations after reconstruction and into the 1920s in which case you’d be right
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@coal
So called "gender affirming care" is a conversion therapy more egregious than that practiced by "psychiatrists" before homosexuality was removed from the DSM-IV.
Despite the left winning almost every cultural battle in a long time I’m fairly certain they’re going to lose this one and it will discredit a lot of people for a long time. When I was against gay marriage way way back at the beginning of me thinking about politics I was dismayed at how I would have to twist my logic like a pretzel to justify my position. From a secular perspective (which is what th government is) the argument against it just wasn’t very strong. When I try to mentally model support for “gender affirming care” I experience the same kind of dissonance. At the very least you have to share so many assumptions that most people don’t
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@badger
I've met the devil, thett. Few times actually.
I have too. Not directly but when I came to the opinion I said above it definitely felt real. Seeing how evil is so corrupting and eventually all consuming…I wish I could put it in a more compelling way. It’s a personal realization I feel like
The truth is you and I are probably just a little bit schizo
For sure, if you aren’t a little crazy you miss out on a lot. I actually did have a voice in my head when I was a child lol that told me to do bad things. It went away after about a year but it didn’t sound like my internal monologue at all. Creepy stuff
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Unpopular opinion: evil exists as a metaphysical reality and it has a conscious will
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@RationalMadman
I will bet you money right now, literally any amount as I am that sure about this.In the next 2 years, there will be more predatory teachers (we'd need to really dig through every case file that gets remotely public) that are right-wing conservatives than left-wing liberals.
The number of conservatives in elementary school or below education could probably be measured as a single digit percentage so I doubt that. But I don’t think a lot of teachers are molesting kids or anything like that, at least not more than what’s been happening in the past. I just don’t think discussions of sexuality or gender identity are appropriate for young kids. And I don’t trust public school teachers to do It at all
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@SkepticalOne
This is an absurd objection since educators in general (if not across the board) aren't teaching kindergartners about anal sex or advocating for such a curriculum. The younger generations now have a much broader and fluid understanding of gender and sexuality. I think it is fair to say some parts of our society are uncomfortable with this and seek regressive legislation to prevent this from being true of future generations
It’s not an absurd objection because I’ve seen videos of teachers talking about how they discuss homosexuality, gender identity etc with their very young students. I saw an email from a teacher boasting that after teaching her 4th graders about gay and trans issues 20 of the 30 “came out” to her as some kind of LGBT—that’s not education, that’s grooming. The Florida law that caused such controversy was restricting discussions of sex/gender identity for kids K-3, so obviously there is an appetite for it. If you want to argue it’s an over reaction it’s really a “he said she said” type situation because as far as I know we don’t have any empirical evidence on how common this is or isn’t. I do know for sure it’s happening—I’ve probably seen over 100 videos of teachers boasting about it by now.
As for the highlighted bit, it’s a free country and they can be uncomfortable with it if they want to. It goes back to my original point, you need to be very careful with how hard you want to push because conservatives control more states than you do and that’s only going to accelerate in the next few years. Is teaching fifth graders about gay sex really an important issue? I would pick my battles more wisely if I were on the left
As an example, I am certain parts of my historical education were distortions of what actually happened. An accurate account of our history, warts and all, would serve us better.
Welcome to history sadly. It’s virtually impossible to teach history without pushing some kind of agenda even if it’s just picking the topics you teach or leave out. Could you be more specific? What do you think needs to be taught that right wingers want to get rid of?
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@SkepticalOne
I wonder if this 'abolition of public schools' conversation truly began when the 'social' issue of equality was implemented throug desegregation? Or maybe it was an earlier controversy or has been a constant companion of public schools since their inception? I suspect the latter and imagine the conversation is a little more firey than usually considering the highly charged political climate.
Well school desegregation started in the 1950s and busing was at its peak in the 1970s, almost fifty years ago, so I would say no. It’s likely there was a ton of controversy at that time but it had long since faded. What’s happening now is new and completely unrelated. There have always been a small minority of people who were ideologically opposed to public schooling or didn’t want to pay taxes or whatever but the recent controversies with school boards and stuff is directly related to Covid policies and the explosion of “woke” politics
Either way, allowing LGBTQ students to be marginalized by pretending they don't exist or to withhold accurate historical information is not an option. Education is about telling the whole story as best we know it. Historical accuracy and most especially the recognition of a broader understanding of humanity should not be equated to a mere social or political issue. It is the denial of LGBTQ and historical accuracy that is the political touchstone which has no place in public schools
I’m not sure exactly what you mean. Parents aren’t objecting to LGBT kids existing, they’re objecting to stuff like teachers wanting to teach kindergarteners about anal sex. A small minority of teachers are actively predatory and use politics as a convenient shield to engage in some pretty disturbing stuff. I don’t think most people would actually disagree if everyone discussed the issues rationally and with a cool head. What is it that you want schools to teach that you think they aren’t, or that you think (and have evidence that) right wingers want to ban?
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@SkepticalOne
Looks like an assumption to me. Plus, is it really any different if parents indoctrinate their children under the guise of education? The goal should be to prevent indoctrination rather than move to a system with less oversight and regulation where it is easier and more common.
People are going to (try) to indoctrinate their kids either way. It’s just how people are. That’s why touching social or religious issues was a third rail for so long and why it’s so incredibly dangerous to the system. It’s difficult to determine just how common it is but even knowing that it’s propaganda designed to persuade me I’ve seen enough clips from “woke” teachers talking about how 20 out of their 30 4th graders are “LGBT” or how we need to destroy “whiteness” to know that public school isn’t in the future for my kids. I grew up in a conservative suburb and my own 5th grade teacher was caught on camera saying she wanted conservative Christians to die! It’s some truly scorched earth culture warring.
The destruction of the public school system is now in my financial best interest, as if it goes away or if school choice is passed I’ll no longer have to pay $500 a month to support a school system I don’t expect to ever use. That’s not a good thing! So many people don’t have the means to afford private or homeschooling, and republicans control so many states that if public school is politicized for a lot of kids who need it it’s done. It’s already started in a lot of places. It’s better to just avoid cultural issues as much as possible and hope that real life corrects the parents who teach their kids objectively incorrect things. Otherwise you must be willing to fight them, politically or otherwise, and the collateral damage (lots of poor kids not being able to get any decent education) isn’t worth it
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@Polytheist-Witch
That's because nine times out of ten the goal isn't for them to get a job it's for them to go to college.
Yes, it seems like what happened was that schools stopped flunking people. Teachers saw how badly failing high school could mess up someone’s future and understandably didn’t have the heart to do it anymore. But when everyone does that a high school diploma it stops being a mark of general competence and instead means only that someone turned a certain age. It’s incredibly hard to flunk out of high school these days. As late as the 1970s the majority of working adults hadn’t graduated from high school…out of my four grandparents only one graduated high school. It was a big deal.
Now college takes high schools place, except it sucks up four more years of adolescence and isn’t free or even close to free. I think you’re right that vocational training starting in K-12 is a good idea. Traditionally kids would be apprenticed under a master to learn a trade around 12-14
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Regardless of the recent political stuff I think it's obvious that the system in America at least is really showing its age and needs some changes. Even at good schools the system serves mostly as a place to get the kids out of the house all day and get them socialized with other kids. School is a very weird social system that's never again replicated, I'm not convinced that spending 12 years straight with people who are all your age and your age alone competing for the attention of and obeying the instructions of a single authority figure is good preparation for life. I haven't experienced that social model before or since, when I joined the workforce my coworkers ranged from early 20s to late 70s. And nowadays with attention spans being what they are lots of kids, boys especially, have to be medicated in order to get along with the "sit down and shut up for 8 hours" model. No disrespect to elementary school teachers, but you're not teaching anything that's more important than a child not being medicated every day.
On top of all of that, kids come out of high school and they can't get a decent job. Twelve years of schooling and they walk out without any marketable skills! Where is the sense in that?
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@TheMorningsStar
Thank you, my poor grasp of philosophy gets me in trouble sometimes so it’s good to see that something I said makes sense
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@RationalMadman
I am not sure how else to word my sensible reply to your futile flexing that many greedy rich bastards vote for the party that simps them. Nobody cares, everybody knows.
I'm not sure if everyone knows because I see it often said that Republicans are hypocritical for opposing expansion of the welfare state when Red states tend to use more welfare/government services. This is true, but it doesn't tend to be true for the actual Republican voters in those states (although it is true for many to be sure--like I said nobody has a monopoly on welfare users)
Also is a family income of above $100k but below $200k really "rich"? That seems solidly middle class to upper middle class the further up you go and that's the only bracket Trump won. The exit polls are flawed but I think they get the broad strokes right, I bet Trump actually did win this group
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@coal
What do you mean?
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@RationalMadman
Shame that the highest need the lowest to work for them, isn't it?Greedy people are fine as long as their relationship with the poor is symbiotic.
What do you mean?
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@RationalMadman
Hahaha, let's see it happen. I can't wait for America's right wing to go 'oh fuck! All our economic powerhouse states are Democrat or swing states how did we ever think the needy Reds could cope on their own?
That’s not really how it works. The exit polls are very imperfect but 2020 followed a long term trend of republicans winning higher income brackets and democrats winning lower income brackets. This trend used to be a lot stronger when college educated whites were a strong republican group but it still persists now because high income non college educated people have become staunch republicans. Red states receive more federal spending/pay less in per capita taxes largely due to the south and the voters who receive that welfare are largely democratic voters. In reality neither party has a monopoly on tax payers or welfare users, it’s more a matter of chance that the distribution of groups in various states is the way that it is
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@Reece101
It seems like you think language and genetics are as interconnected as gender and biological sex.
I think that things proven to be fertility shredders will over time retreat in favor of things that are fertility maximizers
By the way what do you think of surrogate parents?
Haven’t thought about it at all
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@Reece101
I would go further and say it isn’t just correlation. Though when it comes to modernity there are cultural drivers other than close relatives passing down stories.
“Modernity” was a poor choice of words on my part because that can mean so many things…technology isn’t going away for example. But I’m not betting on the end of gender, that’s for sure. The men and women of the future will call themselves men and women, while the few who deny reality largely won’t be passing on their genes.
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@Reece101
Well child marriage is having a come back in many red states. Is that what you’re referring to? I have no clue.
That’s not what I’m referring to, and it’s not coming back. What I’m referring to is how fertility correlates with various belief systems. The highest fertility subgroups in the US (7+ children per women) are the Amish and the Hasidic Jews both of whom completely reject modernity. More mainstream religious white conservatives and minorities, who are less on board with this kind of social liberalism, have roughly replacement level fertility rates
Highly educated white liberals who are at the forefront of “abolishing gender” and other such nonsense have abysmally low fertility rates. In this case in particular many who most zealously support the ideology have their children sterilized in their teens trying to “transition”
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@Reece101
Modernity selects for people who reject it? Dude you lost me.
The people who have children are largely those who reject the type of thing you’re after. Not a whole lot of they/thems who are parents, lots of religious folks with big families
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@Reece101
They and them are the only pronouns they’ll be using now.Gender abolition is coming.
More likely people and groups that adopt evolutionarily maladaptive behaviors like this will fail to reproduce themselves and will be replaced. Modernity is funny like that, it selects for people who reject it
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@3RU7AL
Apotemnophilia is a psychological disorder in which the victim wants a healthy limb removed. It still happens but about twenty years ago for whatever reason there was a relatively large wave of people suffering from this disorder. Would it be in the interest of medical ethics for elective amputations of healthy limbs to occur? Is this also so much nobodies business that we shouldn’t even opine on it on a debating website?
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@3RU7AL
where's the "threat" thett3 ?
If you don’t see mentally ill children being groomed into sterilizing and/or mutilating themselves as a problem I don’t know what to say to you. Just a fundamental conflict of values I guess
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@Bones
Also, what is your thought on archeologists sound ability to identify the sex/gender of a given corpse? Doesn't this suggest that there is a plethora of factors which constitute manhood and womanhood? Even though there isn't a single factor which all wo/man posses, there is still an ability to mostly identify the gender/sex of a given individual.
It’s such an absurd standard to set that unless 100% of women possess all of the traits we ascribe to women there’s no meaningful definition of woman. It’s not how anatomy works. Humans have full sets of joints in all of their toes, but I am missing one that doesn’t allow that toe to tilt upward. It doesn’t mean I’m not a human and it doesn’t mean we can’t describe humans as having the joint I’m missing, there’s just something slightly off about my body. A woman who has a deep voice or something isn’t not a woman just because she lands more on the “man” side of one of the thousands of traits where men and women differ
There may in fact be people who have so many anomalous things about them that they can’t easily fit into the categories of man or woman but that’s going to be incredibly, incredibly, incredibly rare…WAY WAY WAY below the 2.1% of the youth that now claims to have a gender identity not in concordance with their bodies. Like I said if an adult says they are trans they’re free to do so but let’s dispense with the idea that this means “man” and “woman” aren’t real things and for the love of God leave the kiddos alone
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2.1% of Gen Z says they are trans along with gigantic increases in other LGBT identification, mostly bisexual (15%!). Anyone telling you that there isn’t an element of social contagion to this is a liar and the motivations of anyone who wants to transition children when we know this information are highly suspect
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@Nyxified
Well, you see, the difference here is that 1 in 50 people are born with chromosomes that don't align with their sex[1]. Many people will have their reproductive organs or breasts removed, or will have their estrogen suppressed, or will have a lot of body hair, etc... If being born with 11 fingers had half the prevalence of cis people who lack multiple of the attributes one would expect of their assigned sex, then yeah, you wouldn't be able to say that. Using this same example, a person is a human being regardless of how many fingers they have because their fingers are irrelevant to their humanity.
This is missing the forest for the trees. Not only is that statistic likely wrong (just a quick Google search yielded estimates of 1 in 400 to 1 in 1000 people) we don't base our understanding of human anatomy on anomalies. For example, I am missing a joint in one of my toes. It can tilt downward but not upward, unlike all of the others. Very very few people, if any, don't have some anomalous about their bodies, but if we were drawing a complete human anatomy we would include a joint in all toes, even though some people like me are missing some. Similarly we know what men and women are. Like I said, an alien studying humanity would come up with the same categorizations we do because we are a sexually dimorphic species. The denial of this extremely basic concept is very telling. How do you expect to convince someone who is skeptical of your ideology that you’re right when you can’t even define “man” and “woman” quite literally the most basic distinction between humans, in a way that carries any meaningful information?
While I still don't believe it's 'immutable', yeah. They do. Sex is irrelevant to gender identity. Even if you don't believe trans women can become women in terms of sex, that's not really what I've been talking about.
This is what I see as the fundamental contradiction behind the progressive position on this. You say sex is irrelevant to gender identity, and yet the way one expresses their "gender identity" is to try and conform with the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex. So sex and gender ARE linked...except when they aren't. Like I said earlier, the entire concept presupposes meaningful definitions of man and woman--there must be, or a mind couldn't possibly be in the "wrong" body.
We stopped murdering trans people, mostly. And also started giving would-be trans people the knowledge of what it means to be trans and that other people are like them.
So then where are all the 50+ people coming out as trans? And why does it cluster in friend groups, especially with FtM teenage girls? I hope I can make it clear that the arguments I've been making come from a philosophical viewpoint. I am opposed to transgenderism because my position is that the ideal circumstance for a person with gender dysphoria is that they come to terms with reality as it is (ie, their body in its natural state, how they were created) and foster a positive self identity based on that, instead of chasing something they can never reach. But for adults who want to make that decision well it's not my place to stop them, and if it weren't for this being pushed onto kids I wouldn't even bother to make these posts.
It's okay to be trans...but very few people are. Children are very impressionable and can easily be led astray--the gigantic increase in children identifying as trans has all the hallmarks of a social contagion, and not an actual identity. We should not permit the use of medicines and surgeries with life altering consequences, and we should not confuse children into thinking they're something that they aren't. You say that most children don’t have access to “gender affirming care” but the amount that do is obviously increasing, and the horror stories are already trickling in
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@3RU7AL
and ?exactly what manner of "catastrophe" do you suppose this will manifest ?
I do think this kind of thing and the numerous other stories readily available is a catastrophe and I make no apologies for opposing it: https://old.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/t267iu/my_consent_was_not_informed/
Child abuse is everyone’s business. Bad things happening to vulnerable people is something that upsets me. Your ideological commitment to it being nobody else’s business is something I can understand but I ultimately disagree.
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@3RU7AL
perhaps you should "self"-identify as you wishand allow other people the same courtesywhy does the state need to know what chromosomes each of us might possess ?
People can self identify however they want. That doesn’t mean it’s ultimately a healthy or rational choice for them but it’s their decision. My massive problem with the trans stuff is that it’s being pushed onto children, and the result is an exponential growth in the number of youth identifying as trans, a portion of which undergo life altering medication and/or surgery. Something that harms the youth is everyone’s concern imo. Especially when it comes from the public schools that we all pay for
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@RationalMadman
The labelling of ourselves is mostly only useful for artificially presenting our strengths and weaknesses on a resume or dating profile, as well as in psychiatry. In the end everybody is at least 50% exaggerating or toning down their real self in their job application and general dating profile's description of themselves.
I pretty much agree with that. Even the concept of what “the self” is is just kind of navel gazing imo…people can do it if they want to but it’s not a requirement. It’s generally healthier for society to get people to consider less and less minute distinctions between people
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@Nyxified
A woman can get her breasts removed and still be a woman. A woman can take estrogen-blockers to treat an estrogen-dependent cancer, thereby losing the muscle/fat distribution typically seen in females, and still be a woman. A woman can have her uterus and/or ovaries removed and still be a woman. A woman can have a deep voice and still be a woman. A woman can have every aspect typical of female biology and live fifty years while identifying as, being perceived as, living as, and, in all meaningful ways, being a woman only to discover at age 50 that she has XY chromosomes. In every way that means anything, she's still a woman.
This is like saying we can't say humans have ten fingers because a small minority are born with eleven fingers or because others lost one in an accident. Very few people are anatomically perfect, but we know what human beings look like. When it comes to sex/gender we are a sexually dimorphic species and it's generally incredibly obvious which side of that dynamic any particular individual falls on. With respect to those sex/secondary sex characteristics the relevant consideration is that most cis women have *all* of them while trans women have none, and have to brute force their bodies with chemicals or surgeries into coming anywhere close. That right there should tell you something.
The only concrete thing we can take from someone identifying as a woman, then, is that their gender identity is female. This is true of both cis females and trans females; if the only thing you know about someone is their gender, you can't derive anything from that info with certainty other than their gender identity. If, to you, that means that gender identity is meaningless rather than genders being meaningful in spite of the fact they have varying expressions, then that's fine. That's not what I'm speaking about.
If your statement was factual the highlighted bit is what it would mean. But the statement is incorrect. We can guess with a high degree of accuracy a LOT about a person simply by knowing if they are a woman or a man--ESPECIALLY on the things trans people are concerned about, like breasts or facial hair because we are a sexually dimorphic species. There is a distribution of values on many thousands of characteristics that differ between male and female individuals. I'm sure there is a man out there in the world who is otherwise anatomically typical who for some reason has breast tissue that produces milk but it would be the height of silliness to say that because like 0.0001% of men have something that like 99.99% of women do "man" and "woman" aren't meaningful concepts other than how we choose to define them. If an alien came down and studied humanity they would come up with the same division of sex we did, and would put virtually every individual in the exact same category that we do.
A trans person isn't fixated on their identity being wrong, a trans person is fixated on their outward presentation not matching their identity. What you're describing is conversion therapy, and we learned fifty years ago that that doesn't work.
No, gender affirming care is the equivalent of conversion therapy. Sexuality is...complicated. The fact that gay men report molestation victimization rates as children around 10x that of straight men pretty much shuts the door on any argument that the environment can't impact ones sexuality, at the very least sexual trauma or first experiences can in many cases. But I would definitely agree that by the time almost anyone is able to express their sexuality it's immutable and can't be meaningfully changed, so conversion therapy is just damaging.
Gender is a totally different beast. Sex is immutable from the day you're born. Universally. The trans ideology argues that gender and sex are separate but like... My big issue with the trans ideology is that it wants to have it's cake and eat it too. Look closely at what you wrote..."their outward presentation not matching their identity." What's this "outward presentation" based on? The sex characteristics of cis women or men...which come purely from biology. So the identity is fundamentally rooted in an immutable biology that is opposite to what the person has, but if they claim the identity they have just as strong a claim to it as anyone else. Do you see my issue? I don't think it's possible to actually change with current technology. Gay conversion therapy tried to change people into something they are not using propaganda and chemicals--in my view gender affirming care is the exact same thing.
Instead of futile attempts to change the sex of confused children and teenagers we should focus on providing them with a positive self identity based in reality as it is, and not how they wish it was. If an adult still wants to take opposite sex hormones or do an operation...well I have my thoughts on if that's ethical. I don't think surgically removing healthy organs is medically ethical--but at least it's between consenting adults.
What do you make of the huge increase of teens identifying as trans?
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Identity is indeed innate, which is why it's something most people do not question at all. A person being so fixated on their identity being "wrong" isn't a mark of good health.
Here's a possibly unpopular opinion. I don't believe that thinking deeply about your identity is a good or a healthy thing to do, even though our society now finds it incredibly important to do and something we must do nonstop. I didn't think of myself as white until I was like 14 or 15 years old probably. I know that I MUST have known I was white, but I've looked back quite a bit (and I have an excellent memory) and I genuinely can't remember a single point in childhood where I thought about it, or self identified as white. Some would say that comes from "white privilege" and actually there's a lot of truth to that. But like a lot of "privilege" that just means something that's good actually and shouldn't be carelessly discarded. It was 100% more healthy for me not to even think about race instead of feeling anxiety and/or anger over the nonstop racial discourse
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@Nyxified
I apologize, but I don't quite see what you mean when you say this or if it's relevant to what you're saying. I don't mean that sarcastically, just genuinely unsure.
It came from me misreading your post, so you can ignore it
No different from every other aspect of one's identity, I can't answer 'where' it comes from more specifically than just the brain. Nobody can. Gender might not mean the same thing or look the same for every person, but it is innate.'Woman' is both used to refer to a sex and a gender identity. It is my opinion that, in every meaningful way, a trans woman can reach the point their sex is indistinguishable from a cis woman; I believe I could make a convincing argument for that belief.
This is where I think the fundamental contradiction comes in, though. Look at the comparison you're drawing, it's between cis women and trans women. But cis women are women BECAUSE of inherent biology. The trans argument is that gender is a "social construct" but that social construction comes from how society intersects with inherent, fixed biology. The entire notion relies upon their being meaningful and workable definitions of "man" and "woman" in the first place that one can change to (or discover if you prefer), and these have to come from somewhere. It's rather obvious to me that they come from sex. If someone with XY chromosomes, a beard, a penis, adams apple, a deep voice, who dresses like a man and engages in stereotypical male behavior and hobbies can self identify as a woman (and that person can under your ideology) and we MUST respect it than the entire concept has no meaning. It doesn't convey any information. So I don't see why it would be that important
Identity is indeed innate, which is why it's something most people do not question at all. A person being so fixated on their identity being "wrong" isn't a mark of good health. That's why I get so enraged at "gender affirming care" for confused young people who need to be brought into a positive self identity instead of having damage done to them chasing the impossible. I also drew from other posts that you identify as trans. Adults should be free to make their own decisions and I'll respect that...but that should go both ways. I shouldn't face social sanction for refusing to profess that Bruce Jenner, a person who spend the first 65 years of life as a high testosterone alpha male, is in the same category of gender as my mom or my wife, or that girls who are clearly confused and uncomfortable with puberty should take hormones or have their breasts removed
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@Nyxified
'Woman' is a gender identity.Any conditions for womanhood beyond identifying as a woman are, at best, pointless technicalities.
You seem to place rather more emphasis on it than that. I wouldn’t have an opinion on if “cats are trogoflsod’s” if I couldn’t define that word, it obviously has some meaning to you. Where does gender identity come from ?
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@Nyxified
Trans women are women.
What is a woman?
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