Instigator / Pro
11
1468
rating
3
debates
0.0%
won
Topic

Israel is an illegal state

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
0
12
Sources points
6
8
Spelling and grammar points
4
4
Conduct points
1
4

With 4 votes and 17 points ahead, the winner is ...

Ragnar
Parameters
More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Politics
Time for argument
Twelve hours
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
10,000
Contender / Con
28
1760
rating
34
debates
100.0%
won
Description
~ 447 / 5,000

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s longest-running and most controversial conflicts. At its heart, it is a conflict between two self-determination movements — the Jewish Zionist project and the Palestinian nationalist project — that lay claim to the same territory. But it is so, so much more complicated than that, with seemingly every fact and historical detail small and large litigated by the two sides and their defenders.

Round 1
Pro
To better explain the thesis of this debate; this debate will be about the legitimacy of Israel. Since i am pro i need to point out several point to illegitimace Israel, i will do this by bringing up the following point. 

1) Israels claim to the land.

Because Israel's claim to the land rests completly on religious and historical points affirming that the land belongs to them, i will arguments against these points.

 1.1) religious reason." the promised land"

According to the Hebrew Bible (Genesis 15:18-21), God promised Abraham (Ibrahim, in Arabic) to give him and his descendants a land to inhibit, and thus Abraham moved along with his successors to the land of Canaan.

Genesis 15:18-21
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, to your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

First of all Religious claims can't determine the "rightful rulers" of a land. But even if it did it wouldnt matter since Israel is not a theocracy, and does not goveren itself believing that God is the supreme civil ruler. therefore the claim to the land from religious reason is not a valid argument.
But pretending it did it still would not give Israel a legitimate claim to the land, since the text “to your descendants attests that the land was given to ALL descendants of Abraham, not to Jacob’s successors restrictively. Since the above biblical text did not specify or exclude any of Abraham’s descendants, no matter of other supplementary text or supposition.
 
1.2) Historical claim

Many arguments have been used to refer to the Jews exclusively. Whereas, all historical manuscripts and divine books, including the Hebrew Bible, affirm that “Children of Israel” (Beni Israel, in Arabic) is a godly term to refer to all descendants of Jacob/Israel collectively and individually (ever since God changed Jacob’s name to Israel).
Here are few scriptural quotations from the Bible (Genesis 32:28, 29 & 33) that substantiate this fact.
“28 And he said unto him: ‘What is thy name?’ And he said: ‘Jacob.’

29 And he said: ‘Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

33 Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob’s thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein” 

However, a review of this historical event will exhibit that “children of Israel” (descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel) is the name of Jacob’s lineage irrespective of their faith or any other variable. And hence, it is incorrect to echo that the “children of Israel” were restrictively Jewish. Since Judaism only emerged after five centuries or so from the time of Jacob. Add that, even after Judaism, many tribes upheld the monotheistic belief of their olden patriarchs; while, other tribes remained paganists and polytheists.

In logic
Given all the above clarifications, it is beyond the bounds of logic to condone that the ancient existence of one lineage or another in a specific geographical area is a timeless license of land-ownership to reoccupy that land after more than 1600 years from leaving it. Irrespective of one’s belief, it is unreasonable to accept that the readings of one holy book or another, which was written thousands of years back, are valid proofs of land rights at this modern era.
Imagine what would happen if some millions of Semitic Christians, who were Jewish and then converted to Christianity over the past 2000 years, now claim the land of Jerusalem because of their ancient presence in the birthplace of Christ and for being the successors of Jacob> Isaac> Judah.
Imagine what would happen if some millions of Semitic Muslims, who were Jews and then Christians before their conversion to Islam during the last 1400 years, now lay claims to land rights of Jerusalem because they inhabited the land for more than thousand years and/or for being the successors of Abraham> Jacob> Esau>, for instance.
Would it be acceptable if they recaptured their forefathers’ land again?
Would it be their rights then? If not? By the same token, all should revoke the Zionist and Israeli illegitimate claims to land rights over the holy land.




Con
Plagiarism:
Rather than presenting his case, pro has chosen to plagiarize journalist  Mohammad S. Moussalli as featured in the Arabian Gazette [1]. This dismisses his R1.


Legal Ownership:
The land was legally recognized as theirs by the former owners (and most civilized countries) in 1948 [2]. That’s more than seventy years ago. Plus they have a legal document known as a Declaration of Independence [3], legally affirming their right to exist as an organized nation.


Successful Defense:
Laws are about more than paper, they are about practice. So I shall show Israel proving itself capable of defense, which gives the written laws meaning in the face of aggression…

When their genocidal neighbors considered them being alive to be an offense against Allah, Israel defended itself in an event now known as the Six-Day War. The aggressors only managed to kill as many as 983 Israelis, for as many as 23,500 of their own soldiers [4]. This 23.9 to 1 ratio, combined with their enemies habits of targeting schools and other civilian targets, reveals for the enemies of Israel to succeed they would lose at minimum 208.2 million lives from their own side, which is about half the total population of the Middle East and Northern Africa combined.


Sources:
  1. https://arabiangazette.com/myths-facts-israels-claims-land-rights/
  2. https://www.science.co.il/israel-history/
  3. https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx
  4. http://sixdaywar1967.blogspot.com/2010/11/six-day-war-casualties.html
Round 2
Pro

Plagiarism:
I apologize for lack of sources, but the argument and the facts still stand since the information still has significans in the debate.


Response to legal ownership claim:
Before WW1 the land belonged to the ottoman empire, after world war  it came under british control ,[1] but it was never "owned" by britian It was to be "owned" by those residing in Palestine. So British could not legally recognize Israel since they did not own the land. Therefore any "Declaration of establishment" that Israel might have, does not stand as its true ground for establishment is still ilegall. 

Response to defense claim:
To use the argument of "capability of defense" one must definy the true definition of defense. As you could argue that Israels immigration to Palestine was hostile and could be seen as an attack against the Palestinians land therefore the real agressors would be Israel while the Palestinians are onyl defending their land.

1.Human right violations:
The israeli settlements that began in 1967 are illegal under international law, these settlements are a violation of the 4th Geneva convention. Which outlines protection of civilian’s in a war zone, forbids states for transferring their citizens to occupied land. [2]

1.1 Apartheid
Israel is also an apartheid state, where Palestinans that live in Israeli residential areas ( Illegal occupied land ) are treated differently under the law. Israelis live under the Civil Law, while Palestinians live under Israeli Military rule meaning their subject to checkpoints, curfews, detention without charge and other restriction. And that is life under rmilitary occupation. [3]

Conclusion
Israel has neither legal, religious or moral claim to the land of Palestine. Furthermore Israels violations of the palestinians human rights should in it self Illegitimize Israel.

Con
Plagiarism (continued):
In case any voter believes plagiarized material (about 90% of his R1) must be addressed…

“Promised Land”
Here pro talks about the bible, as if religion is what defines legal statehood. But pro having not read his plagiarized material before copy/pasting it, missed that it outright concedes this point is irrelevant because...
“Religious claims can't determine the "rightful rulers" of a land.”

“Historical Claim”
More talk of the bible, which as we can see above pro can conceded as irrelevant. Worse, it affirms that any “children of Israel” have full claim to the land so long as they keep track of their lineage, which Jews do, and has been scientifically verified by:
“a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine [whom] concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations” [1].

“In Logic”
First of all, this copy/paste makes no sense without various other missing paragraphs from the plagiarized source. By itself it is very much a non-sequitur [2]. My legal argument already refuted this anyway with better logic and something meaningful to the actual topic.

Plus even were something illogical, it would not dismiss the internationally recognized and defended legal claim.

Even while not maintaining sovereignty, Jews have maintained a steady presence in the area for a couple thousand years [3]; there was no “1,600 year” period of abandoning it. For a lengthy breakdown, I’ll quote my source:
“Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the eleventh century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa, and Caesarea. The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the twelfth century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem, and elsewhere during the following three hundred years. By the early nineteenth century— years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement— more than ten thousand Jews lived through-out what is today Israel. The seventy-eight years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State” [3].


Legal Ownership (continued):
Pro by insisting ownership is about residence, concedes the debate as the Israeli people reside there, affirming their claim by his own standard. Someone could question the millennia of residence, but the living memory of generations over seventy years of modern history is impossible to dismiss.


Successful Defense (continued):
Pro argues that Israel attacked the land itself, which even taken seriously would in no way dismisses their successful defense of it from genociders intent on killing every man woman child and animal (to include local non-Jews). He claims Palestinians are onyl defending their land” [sic], which has nothing to do with the foreign invasion from the Arab League during the Six-Day War. Worse, that league was intent on murdering everyone there, which means there would be no “Palestinians” for pro to cry about were it not for Israel saving them.


Replies to New Points:
“Human right violations”
Pro argues that anything Israel added to itself during the Six-Day War is illegal, but this affirms that the majority of Israel is perfectly legal; along with most of what they added to themselves during that time as they did not force people to move (instead they saved them from genocidal monsters).

Worse for pro, by talking about the crime of displacing people, affirms Israel’s legal right to exist where they are (it would be a crime to move them). And finally, had he read his own source he would know:
“the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place” [4].
Technically there used to be under England and then Jordan, but both groups gave them up.

“Apartheid”
Israel is not South Africa, and the comparison to such is (to quote pro’s own source): “unhelpful, lazy, inflammatory, [and] antisemitic.”

In order to believe pro’s claims, you principally need to dismiss that Arabs can be citizens. Then dismiss the various Arabs serving high in the Israeli government, their voting rights, etc. Here’s how Arabs are treated in Israel:
Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the full range of civil and political rights, including the right to organize politically, the right to vote and the right to speak and publish freely. Israeli Arabs and other non-Jewish Israelis serve as members of Israel’s security forces, are elected to parliament and appointed to the country’s highest courts. They are afforded equal educational opportunities, and there are ongoing initiatives to further improve the economic standing of all of Israel’s minorities” [5].
I could go into how Jews are treated in countries neighboring Israel, proving a valid comparison to Apartheid in terms of human rights violations; but as informative as that would be, it would not be relevant to the resolution.


Conclusion:
Pro offered several standards for which Israel is a legal state, but complained that he doesn’t like it. He also offered a couple things (the bible) which by his or her own admission are not relevant to if something is a legal state. Overall he mostly made a strong case for educational reform wherever he is from.

I have offered multiple standards, which went worse than unrefuted (he outright conceded the debate while trying to refute the legal claim).


Voting Suggestions:
A few things I humbly ask judges to consider while voting (this is largely quick review to make things easier)…

I. Arguments
My key points were the law and successful defense of all living creatures there for the law to matter.
My opponent's key point was that he believes Israel commits human rights violations, which would not challenge their legal statehood.

II. Sources
Pro committed plagiarism, which I identified… I also offered historical details, and reliability that .gov sources are known for. I generally suggest only counting my R1 sources, as pro could not respond to R2.

Pro had a few sources, not all of them racist, but a couple were overtly racist (racist thus unreliable). The big problem was he did not bother reading his sources (as I caught multiple times), allowing me to easily flip or dismiss their value toward the resolution.

III. S&G
Neither of us had any excessive errors.

IV. Conduct
Plagiarism from pro. The worst offense from me was implicitly questioning his education at one point for comedic effect. I believe the plagiarism easy tips the balance, but that is for judges to determine.


Sources:
  1. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2010/06/tracing-roots-jewishness
  2. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
  3. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/mf2017.pdf#page=9
  4. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm
    One of pro’s sources I have chosen to flip.
  5. https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-israel-is-an-apartheid-state