Instigator / Pro
13
1543
rating
8
debates
75.0%
won
Topic
#1398

THBT the Antifa movement is a destructive political movement, and has caused more harm than good.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
4
2
Better legibility
2
1
Better conduct
1
2

After 3 votes and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

Exile
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
8
1458
rating
12
debates
37.5%
won
Description

Rounds will go as follows:
R1: Opening statements
R2: First rebuttals
R3: Second rebuttals
R4: Closing statements (sans rebuttals)

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@blamonkey

Yeah, I feel like Proud Boys can be d***s. I just think that Antifa is more d***ish.

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@bmdrocks21

There was a bottle thrown, but there were cross-provocations from both groups beforehand. Also, I can't imagine that throwing one bottle is justification to start decking people in the face, especially those who were simply standing by and minding their own business. There were other incidents in which the Proud Boys instigated attacks though. There was one who was arrested for their part in assaulting DeAndre Harris. Another hit a counterprotestor over the head with a wooden dowel during the Berkely protests. The group made a showreel of the violence they committed in Portland.

I've known alleged members of both Proud Boys and Antifa. They both seem like d****.

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@blamonkey

Woah, lol.

I'm wondering if by assault charges you are referring to the incident a few months ago in New York. Antifa members threw a bottle then got destroyed, and the Proud Boys got arrested.

Antifa is formed to seem unorganized and without a leader to avoid the label of being a terrorist group. They use group chats to coordinate.

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@bmdrocks21

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes

There was one at a Republican Club Event in which some members started a fight. They don't seem to be a pleasant group at all. The founder seems to support political violence in some capacity as well. There have been plenty of members arrested for assault, but none yet for murder. The thing is, it's hard to ascertain whether violence was politically motivated sans a manifesto of some kind. They tried to pin the Antifa label on a killer from Dayton. While his social media suggested far left leanings and perhaps an appreciation for Antifa in some respect, he wasn't a member. It's such a loose organization anyway that it hardly resembles a political group. Perhaps it is the same for some of the crimes attributed to the Proud Boys, but it doesn't make them any better. Just as I resent Antifa, I too resent Proud Boys as the epitome of what's wrong with politics and why it only makes sense to be wholly apathetic to everything political. Why would I care when practically all political pundits are slurping down a piss stew of generalizations and bitter indignation for everyone who doesn't match their ideology exactly?

Yes, I am bitter because the meds haven't kicked in yet, thanks for asking.

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@Exile

lol I truly don't believe in Antifa, but I will try to argue for it.

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@oromagi

Ok, I Ctrl + F Proud Boys and didn't find anything. That was mainly what I was looking for.

My right-wing propaganda news sources say Proud Boys act mainly in self-defense, and I wasn't sure if there was an incident they failed to report on.

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@bmdrocks21

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack is what I was thinking of specifically, although I said Proud Boys, etc and was more generally thinking of that core group of 60 or so men who have been marching in Portland, Berkeley, Seattle, Austin, etc since the advent of Trump. I suppose you could argue that the Portland stabbings were really Patriot Prayer or that JJ Christian was no official member, he just attended their meetings and wore their uniform and marched with them a bunch but that kind of misdirection is right out of any violent radical group's playbook.

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@oromagi

What is this about Proud Boys murdering?

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@oromagi

They are not white supremacists at all. Antifa and Neo-Nazi white-on-white rivalry is actually an age old rivalry (both loathe the government equally but opposite sides of it for opposite reasons).

I am a social democrat, so I have some leftist ideals I share with Antifa whereas with Neo-Nazis I share next to nothing ideologically, but both are toxic as fuck in practise.

Antifa has no idea what it's doing, it's got genuinely no clue how to go about getting a point across, that's why Trump got elected and Brexit-vote won. They are helping enough idiots assume the right-wing look like the good guys in enough places around the world that slowly we are seeing a horrific thing happen in the short-run. If they'd be more civil and cunning, like the right-wing shills are, they'd see far more victory and the world would be a better place.

I believe the lack of cons on this debate demonstrates the false portrayal of the left by the right wing media.

Out of the 100 million on each side, there are idiots on both. Portraying those idiots as the common denominator of a third of a population is idiotic, and a common propaganda tactic.

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@Exile

BLM and Feminists are grass roots and good, certainly. I have done a debate where I had to argue just that: the good BLM has done. I, for one, would struggle to argue the same for ANTIFA.

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@oromagi

I mean, there are other movements that some would argue to be influential. BLM is a very good example. Women's suffrage was considered to be grassroots at the time...

it was just an example of a potential argument to be made; I don't expect anyone to make it single-handedly. I just think this topic would make for an interesting debate is all.

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@Exile

Have you considered that the word radical means the same thing as "grassroots"?

Wiktionary:

From French radical, from Late Latin radicalis (“of or pertaining to the root, having roots, radical”), from Latin radix (“root”); see radix.
Favoring fundamental change, or change at the root cause of a matter.

"His beliefs are radical."

I don't think that an argument "radical movements are inevitably good" would fly so I wouldn't defending every grassroots movement. American White Supremacists are certainly radical and grassroots but there nothing inevitably good about White Supremacists, perhaps even nothing good at all.

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@oromagi

I don't think it would be that hard to falsify per se. I don't want to explicitly give away any strategies/talking points as it would make the debate not as fun but you could approach it from a "grassroots movements are inevitably good" angle or something. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people on this platform who stand with Antifa considering the diverse array of ideology I've seen thus far.

Idk I think it would make a great debate.

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@bmdrocks21

gOtTa FiGhT tHe MaN xD

I have defended ANTIFA from the charge of terrorism but this resolution would be hard to falsify: has ANTIFA done any good, really? If Proud Boys, etc. were left alone to continue to march and occasionally murder in (Western U.S.) liberal enclaves they would sooner be seen for what they are: violent white supremacist thugs. By creating a (very occasionally) violent counter-force of (mostly lesbian) teenagers, ANTIFA gives FOX ground to stand with the white supremecists, to democracy's (somewhat) increased peril.

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@Exile

BuT tHeY aRe AnTi FaScIsT