Abortion should be legal
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With 5 votes and 3 points ahead, the winner is ...
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PGA (Peter) and I will take on the abortion debate. Neither of us will be arguing an absolute position and understand there must be room for nuance. Peter allows abortion when the mother's life is threatened by pregnancy. I accept Roe V Wade has laid out reasonable limits on abortion. I anticipate our main point of contention will be, not in the fringe, but, where abortion is most common. Ie. Most abortions occur at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy. I will argue this should be legal, and Peter will argue against it. Each debater will have their own burden to meet.
There will be no new arguments in the final round - only rebuttal and closing.
- I am willing to accept Con’s stats showing *legal* abortion increased after Roe V. Wade. This is not surprising or beneficial to my opponent’s case. As stated in round one, restrictive laws regarding abortion do not appear to reduce abortion overall. What they actually do is force more abortions to be unsafe. According to Guttmacher, “estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.” [16] The causes of pregnancy related death percentages are not surprising either. The percentages are in the context of legal abortion, and as my opponent seems to suggest, these are relatively low numbers. The stats he has provided would be part of 55% of safe abortions (worldwide) I mentioned in round one since abortion is legal (and safe) in the US. On the other hand, 93% of women of reproductive age in Africa live in countries with restrictive abortion laws, and Africa is the world region with the highest abortion related deaths - 9% of maternal deaths in Africa are from unsafe abortion. [20] A clearer demonstration of the harm illegal abortion attributes to can be had by comparing abortion related deaths in Eastern Asia (where abortion is largely unrestricted) to Sub Saharan Africa (where abortion is much more restricted). Eastern Asia has abortion related deaths at .8% whereas SSA is at 9.6% (as of this report in 2014). More than 10 times as many women die in SSA over Eastern Asia due to abortion - making abortion illegal makes it less safe, not less prevalent. [21 Table 1]2
- Con ask about the “health and harm” of the unborn. He might as well ask about the health and harm of self-defense. Is it unfortunate harm can come from protecting oneself? Yes, but the alternative is much worse: no right to do so. Also, the various surgical abortion procedures described are not the norm and might be required when a woman’s life is in danger – which Con himself allows for. This is another inadvertent ‘own-goal’ [17] (Nazi argumentation from rnd 1) and as Con admits himself - an emotional appeal. However, the typical abortion (occurring before 13 weeks) utilizes medication (not surgery) and Con’s emotional appeal has limited applicability (if any) to the notion that a person has a right not to be used by another.
- Equality means everyone has the same rights. Con is not advocating for everyone to have the same rights, but rather for the unborn alone to have a special right. This is not equality.
- The adverse health effects described by my opponent are not an argument against abortion any more than they are an argument against rights overall. Defense of one’s person and personal sovereignty (for example) comes with the potential for harm to the self and others, but this certainly doesn’t mean it is unwarranted. Also, I dispute some of the effects listed. For instances, surgical procedures, which typically happens later in the pregnancy and/or out of necessity (the mother’s life being in danger) do not come into play in most abortions. Additionally, abortion does not affect women’s mental health more than not having an abortion. [18] [19].
Fact 3: Killing innocent human beings is unjust. The unborn is an innocent human being.
Pro never outright disputed the status of its innocence or humanity but did so subtly with semantics.
Fact 4: The Nazis lessened the value and status of many groups of human beings living within Germany by their laws and propaganda, leading to the Holocaust.
A section of my R2 established that Nazi law and Nazi practices devalued and dehumanized particular groups within German society. Pro never disputed those facts, although he argued my comparative analogy between unwanted groups (Jews) and the unborn were unfound. Not true. In both cases, the language undercuts the humanity and personhood of the group(s) it isolates.
Fact 5: Abortion is a colossal human Holocaust unsurpassed by numbers killed to date in the history of the world (over 1.5 billion human beings legislated out of existence since 1980). [1]
Fact 6: Pro could not establish the unborn was not a personal being from conception. He granted it for the sake of this argument. His one supporting citation as evidence of non-personhood [2] was highly speculative, loaded with uncertain language,
"In 1973 the Supreme Court had refused to resolve the question,"
"...the scientific point of view...concluded that biology alone is not able to determine the point at which personhood is established,"
"scientists expressed their view,"
"Reasons for not defining the fetus as a person included the negative impact on providing medical services to the mother and the fetus,..."
"further explorations of the question are necessary."
Although Pro did not prove it was a non-person (his onus), he is okay with stripping it of any legal rights. I argued that from conception, the unborn is a person by its very nature from a philosophical as well as logical perspective. Pro failed to challenge my contentions adequately, even conceding for the sake of this debate that it is a person, yet treats it differently from other persons. In America, what other innocent people can you kill because you don't want them? Hence, Pro has a double standard unless its lack of personhood is proven.
Two Main Arguments - Health and Bodily Rights
a) Woman's Health
Pro was unable to establish that the woman's death rate from pregnancy, was lesser numerically, to the unborn death rate from abortion. Statistically, the death rate from abortion is far higher than the death rate for pregnancy complications. Pro says that "restricting abortion does nothing to reduce its frequency." Even if this were true (due to choosing an illegal abortion as the contributing factor of those deaths, not pregnancy), that does not make two wrongs a right. Even if illegal abortions contribute to just as many deaths as do legal abortions when did ever breaking the law or ignoring the most basic right to life for innocent human beings justify doing something wrong?
Pro never established but only claimed the moral right of abortion (for any reason), especially for bodily rights as being right. Morally, Pro pushed for human equality, citing the UN Declaration on Human Rights, at the same time undermining such rights with his stand on Pro-choice. He says we should treat all human beings equally then proceeds to argue the innocent unborn human are not equal. His position is a glaring deficiency and contradiction.
Only "a small proportion of women who have abortions do so because of health concerns or fetal anomalies, the large majority choose termination in response to an unintended pregnancy." [3]
"Worldwide, the most commonly reported reason women cite for having an abortion is to postpone or stop childbearing." [4]
Again, the reasons are not usually health-related but unwantedness for a variety of factors. Sub Sahara Africa does not fare well in family planning. Abortion becomes a method of contraception there as well as in Asia, such as in Japan (89%). [5]
In the USA, the risk to maternal health is 2.8%; with fetal health, the risk is 3.3%. [6] Health reasons, other than for Pakistan and India play a tiny percentage in why women opt for abortions. [7]
The data available is considered inconclusive and unreliable in many countries. The primary health factor could be for psychological reasons - e.g. ostracization, guilt, shame. For fetal defects, the sex of the child factors into such evaluations in the pregnancy (the Chinese bias to want sons). Health concerns play a minor part in abortions.
b) Bodily Autonomy
Regarding bodily autonomy, Pro wanted to absolute the woman's bodily autonomy. He repeatedly argues that others should ask the woman's consent before using her body, rightly so, yet the unborn is unable to do this. What is more, by the woman consenting to sex, she understands the possibility of pregnancy occurring. With most cases of pregnancy, she agrees to sex. Rape related abortions count for about 1% of all abortions in the USA. [3]
The Violinist
Pros misapprehension here is that the innocent unborn is a stranger (the unborn shares a part of her DNA) who was forcibly attached to the woman's body. In most cases, the sexual union carried with it her consent with the possibility of pregnancy occurring and is a natural biological result of sexual union, not a forced one. Non-consensual sex or rape is the 1% exception to willing intercourse in the USA.
People Seeds
Pro mistakenly thinks that I equate sex to automatic pregnancy. My point is there is a moral responsibility involved with sex that happens with pregnancy. By consenting, there is a chance of forming a new life. I addressed his argument of the woman's bodily "sovereignty" under absolute rights. Nowhere should any person have absolute rights over their body to do with it whatever they like if it involves killing another innocent human being. Pro gives the woman greater rights than men.
Human Rights
Pro continually led me to believe he conceded the personhood argument, so I did not pursue it further, yet in R4, he again puts the onus on me. He has the burden to prove it is not a person of which he did not do.
As mentioned previously, human rights are the weakest part of his argument as explained in Facts # 2-6.
Morality and Law
Pro does not consider my moral or legal arguments to be "strong" for illegalizing abortion. Pro is wrong; he pushes legal abortion as "morally preferable" not as morally right. The harm done to the unborn is irrevocable. Pro does not recognize the "offspring" as a separate "independent entity," but has the illusion it is part of or and "extension" of the woman's body. Therefore he believes the woman can do with it as she pleases. His logic is faulty. If the unborn is part of or an extension of a pregnant woman, she would have four arms and legs, a separate, distinct DNA and blood system, and sometimes a penis. The unborn is its own entity, a different organism, directing its personal development internally. These are scientific facts that Pro conflates and confuses with false assertions. Granted, the unborn relies on the woman's womb and nutrients for its temporary home and food source. Perhaps Pro mistakenly thinks that the only analogy is one of sustenance, but it is one of moral right and wrong, per the heading.
Furthermore, Pro equates harm to the unborn in killing it as lesser harm that the woman endures in carrying it for nine months then perhaps putting it up for adoption. As for the charge that I equate the unborn and abandoned baby as equal, what does that mean? They are equal from a moral perspective, not a developmental perspective, just like a baby and a teen are somewhat different developmentally but no less a human being.
The Loaded Dehumanizing and Depersonalizing Language of Abortion
Although Pro and many Pro-choicers are most likely unaware, they used the same kind of dehumanizing language used by oppressive totalitarian authorities to marginalize opposing groups of society for their purposes. [8] By applying a different legal standard to such groups, Roe V Wade set a precedent for abortion. Roe V Wade questioned the personhood of the unborn, was wrong in its historical summation and used devaluing language to sway public opinion to change laws. Pro used suggestive, dehumanizing, and devaluing language during this debate, with terms like "potential life" or suggestions that the gamete is "sufficiently different from what is typically recognized as 'human'" to lessen what the unborn is.
He made misrepresenting, unscientific statements like "what makes humans special isn't our cells or DNA (which is pretty much all there is at conception)," but that DNA is what does make us unique for it directs the human organism to be what it is. The unborn is more than a collection of cells. At conception, the unborn is a separate, individual, unique human entity with everything it needs internally to direct its growth to its full potential. Like every other human entity or personal being, it needs an environment and nutrients ( that the woman supplies) to aid it in its development.
I thank Pro for willingly debating this important subject!
I am afraid it's way simpler haha
We have a new team member that finds the best content and publishes it in the social networks :)
I assumed it was automatically generated by some type of formula (possibly tied to how many comments this debate had), and posted to Facebook. How did it actually get made?
I am not sure I follow, what do you mean? What formula? ^_^
Not the biggest deal, but the formula used to generate the following could use a little refinement: https://www.facebook.com/debateartcom/posts/2612517185666023
I don't know if that is chosen by person or automated program. I lean toward the latter given the awful misquote attributed to me and the number of comments on this debate.
I wonder how that happened, SkepticalOne? (^8
Awesome! We made it to social media, Peter! 😁
Although - they need to quote me correctly!
Not sure what part of this whole thing generated this: https://www.facebook.com/debateartcom/posts/2612517185666023
"I stated a biblical truth"
You stated a theological view based on the opinions presented in the Bible. There is no objective way to verify this claim.
"I believe God is necessary to make sense of such things for such a God (the biblical One) has what is necessary for us to know - omniscience, immutability, and eternity"
You claim your belief as the basis of your epistemology, but in actuality you generally borrow from an epistemological view which does not require a god. I doubt you're closing your eyes when crossing a road or driving your car - that's because your senses inform you of the world around you - not gods.
Where your belief does come into play you get the wrong answers ...evolution, for instance. Granted these could be just your personal failings and a 'divine epistimology' is a true, but it's clear you have difficulty differentiating between divine knowledge and personal ignorance. Furthermore, you damage your claims of god as the basis of knowledge when you attribute your ignorance to 'His' knowledge.
That being said, I fully admit my own ignorance and try to correct it as I find it. However, my ignorance doesn't substantiate your claim anymore than your ignorance proves whatever epistemological view I might advocate.
SKONE: "You provided a logical fallacy (circular argument) in defense. That is not logical. I'm not trying to beat you up, but I don't think you've really examined your position all that closely."
I stated a biblical truth. I believed you knew that teaching. It was not something I made up out of the blue. This is the teaching of Scripture, that there is a foundation that is right and true and noble, per the Bible, but,
Psalm 11:3
If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?
If you destroy or attempt to destroy this foundation then what will you use to replace it? Please answer this question.
Matthew 7:24[ The Two Foundations ] “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Jesus taught two foundations, one solid and reliable, the other built on sinking sand.
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
Matthew 21:42Jesus *said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone; This came about from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
The cornerstone was the first stone laid and a key to the structure of the building.
Ephesians 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
There is a time when no greater authority can be appealed to, thus when you appeal to authority is your authority circular too? "Science proves science." "Logic proves logic." Is that circular? In the case of God, a Being who knows all things, how could there be a greater authority of appeal? Eventually, all things point to God as the Originator or Creator of them.
What is your foundation of epistemology? Is it yourself, perhaps, or science, or reason (whose)?
Post 207: "Jesus/god as a foundation of epistemology? I view this as a bald assertion. Why should I consider your view to be correct? Fair warning: I will not find circular arguments compelling."
Jesus is the foundation of epistemology per such biblical statements as John 14:6; John 16:30; John 21:17; or Colossians 2:3. Whether you choose to accept this is another matter. You know the Bible says those things. I do not see fit to explain to you something you already understand. It is not only me saying that He is the foundation of our understanding. It is not just one biblical author who spoke of such things, and many such authors said they were eyewitnesses of His resurrection.
1 John 1-3 (NASB)
Introduction, The Incarnate Word
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have SEEN with our eyes, what we have LOOKED AT and TOUCHED with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what we have SEEN and HEARD we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
There are only a few possibilities for origins:
1. Creation.
2. Chance happenstance.
3. Eternal existence.
4. Illusion.
Perhaps you can think of more (name them), but which makes sense to you? That brings me back to a statement I make often. I believe God is necessary to make sense of such things for such a God (the biblical One) has what is necessary for us to know - omniscience, immutability, and eternity.
I would think comprehensive sex ed would be our first priority.
"The United States ranks first among developed nations in rates of teenage pregnancy, abortion, and sexually transmitted infections and diseases. Only 38 of America’s 50 states have sex education laws, and 30 of those curricula promote the ideal of abstinence until marriage. Only eight include all components of a comprehensive sex education."
https://scholars.org/contribution/why-sex-education-united-states-needs-update-and-how-do-it
You provided a logical fallacy (circular argument) in defense. That is not logical. I'm not trying to beat you up, but I don't think you've really examined your position all that closely.
SKONE: "I am not questioning Christianity specifically, but merely asking about an epistemological claim. Lashng out at me doesn't make your assertions true."
I have explained what my epistemology is based upon. I have explained it from a philosophical and logical perspective. I could have taken other aspects of proof but I based it upon your Post 207 query and charge.
Can't we just skyrocket funds to planned parenthood so they make better contraception and therefore eliminate abortions pretty much entirely?
I am not questioning Christianity specifically, but merely asking about an epistemological claim. Lashng out at me doesn't make your assertions true.
SKONE: "This tangent can be summarized as such:
Person A: How do you logically support belief X [Christianity]?
Person B [a Christian] attempts to avoid scrutiny of said belief [Christianity] by questioning person A [an atheist/agnostic] on assumed belief Y [atheism]. Additionally, Person B [a Christain] suggests a book [the Bible], [1] which (alone) states it's own importance, substantiates his belief.
[2] Even if Person A [an atheist/agnostic] cannot substantiate belief Y [atheism/agnosticism], it does not follow belief X [Christianity] of person B [a Christian] is substantiated. [3] Also, the book can be a claim or evidence - not both. [4] Finally, the summary above is overly generous. [5] PGA is not merely relying on the Bible to substantiate his views, [6] but *his interpretation* of the Bible. [7] PGA accuses me of dodging his questions, [8] but his questions are a dodge in and of themselves. I simply refuse to follow the feint.
Please remember where this tangent came from. SKONE said,
Post 207: "Jesus/god as a foundation of epistemology? I view this as a bald assertion. Why should I consider your view to be correct? Fair warning: I will not find circular arguments compelling."
[1] Again, I questioned Person A [an atheist] on his ultimate authority and on the consistency of such said authority in regards to the surety and necessity of knowing. I questioned how his relativism and subjectivism is the necessary standard in understanding epistemology in such areas as origins of the universe, life from non-life, morality, and existence. I'm trying to get to the basics of his claims about my beliefs and his own as to which is more reasonable - the core or foundational starting points to there coherency and correspondency. S I L E N C E
[2] If Person A [an atheist/agnostic] cannot substantiate his own belief is reasonable nor can he prove Person B's [the Christian] beliefs are not why should his charges be taken seriously? I have given reasons for my belief system as to knowledge is reasonable from where I start and what is NECESSARY, yet SKONE has not.
[3] The either-or fallacy/false dilemma. The "claim" comes from those who do not believe what the Bible states as an ultimate authority from which there is no greater. Thus, it becomes a test of belief systems as to reason and verification of authority and to what is necessary to know. Two contrary authorities are not both right. Are we created or are we here by chance happenstance? Which is more reasonable? The biblical evidence comes from both the internal and external consistency of what is stated that can be related to human history to a large extent but it drives way deeper in answering the question of why are we here and how did we get here? It also comes from a revelation of necessary Being of which neither SKONE nor myself are. From basic questions, worldviews are framed. Thus, the basics are what we need to examine as to the logic and sense in such belief systems.
[4] You framed it.
[5] SKONE said, "PGA is not merely relying on the Bible to substantiate his views" but from the Christian standpoint I am created in the image and likeness of God and I am using what he has given me (reason and logic) to understand His creation. My point has been that neither of us is neutral in our belief system and yet from Person A's [the atheist/agnostic] starting points, his foundational beliefs, how can he make sense of any of this in his subjectivity of origins, morality, life from non-life, and existence? He is trying to convince the reader that his position is "better" and more "reliable" to believe than my framework to which I scoff. Let us peel away the veneer to see what lies beneath the surface. Does SKONE's belief system have what is necessary for knowledge, or is he using my Christian framework?
[6] Regarding interpretation, I have asked SKONE if a language has meaning in context? If not, then how can we understand anything? If so, then there is a correct interpretation. If SKONE wishes to question me on my interpretation I have given him some verses that support my position regarding knowledge. I have also questions his starting points or foundations as to validity. Do his core presuppositions have what is necessary?
[7] Most definitely.
[8] They get to the heart of the issue. SKONE is asking me to validate how I can know Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I have explained the biblical REVELATION has what is necessary to know. I have also said that SKONE does not have what is necessary. Why should I believe his personal opinion or where he derives it from unless he can show it is necessary for truth and knowledge. S I L E N C E
This tangent can be summarized as such:
Person A: How do you logically support belief X?
Person B attempts to avoid scrutiny of said belief by questioning person A on assumed belief Y. Additionally, Person B suggests a book, which (alone) states it's own importance, substantiates his belief.
Even if Person A cannot substantiate belief Y, it does not follow belief X of person B is substantiated. Also, the book can be a claim or evidence - not both. Finally, the summary above is overly generous. PGA is not merely relying on the Bible to substantiate his views, but *his interpretation* of the Bible. PGA accuses me of dodging his questions, but his questions are a dodge in and of themselves. I simply refuse to follow the feint.
Furthermore, you said you do not want to go down my rabbit holes (which I view as a simple dismissal of my points without a warrant). This still begs the question of if your knowledge is not comprehensive and all-encompassing and you can't point to any that meets this criterion that has been revealed to humanity, again, why should I have faith in your belief system as anything other than the blind leading the blind?
Again, you have not shown me why your worldview is consistent with the preconditions for knowledge. If you do not have a comprehensive knowledge of how all things are connected and holds together how can you have any certainty of the origins of the universe, life, morality, existence? Again, my worldview has the necessary preconditions - God, your does not.
Regarding morality, I have questioned your preconditions for morality in our first debate on abortion and I never saw your defence as plausible. I questioned your morality in regard to the law in this debate and I again never saw your defence as plausible but contradictory once again. It did not even meet the criterion of being self-evidently true. You argued for all humanity being equal then undermined the very concept of equality by not treating every human equally.
I would like to follow up on one of your statements to do with epistemology. Here it is:
SKONE: "If you don't want to talk about what you consider the basis of knowledge that's fine. I do find it ironic you suggest god is the basis of knowledge, but apparently can't say how you know that."
I find it ironic that you suggest God is not (and I speak of the Christian God).
What is your basis for knowledge? How can it be an absolute certainty?
What is the necessary precondition for your reasoning? Is it an omniscient being who has revealed themself? If not it is inconsistent. It begs the question of how it can be known to be the actual case if not. So point to this being. I question your subjective mind as the criteria for knowledge just as I question other subjective, relative human beings as the foundation for certainty of knowledge. I reason that your knowledge is not comprehensive and all-knowing, thus, it misses the mark. So, please explain why I can trust it? Mine, on the other hand, has what is necessary. Thus, it is internally consistent as the precondition for knowledge.
IOW's, I want to know why your authority is justifiable if it is not the absolute authority for reason and knowledge?
ME: "The biblical perspective is that knowledge is derived from God (e.g. I am the way, the truth, and the light). We, as human beings, are created in His image and likeness; thus, we are capable of knowing also provided we build upon a solid foundation."
SKONE: "So your explanation is simple as "my interpretation of the Bible". Why should we consider the Bible an authority in anything (besides "the Bible tells me so") or accept your interpretation of it? On the former, its circular, and on the latter, it's subjective."
I base my interpretation on many simply stated passages of Scripture. Would you like to dispute that, or are you merely saying that there is no correct interpretation of Scripture or no objective understanding of any sentence (i.e., words in context have no meaning)?
Regarding authority and reason, where does your ultimate authority derive from; for example, the standard in which truth is measured? There is no neutrality here. What standard do you commit to?
Now, what if the Bible (stated as God's word) is my ultimate authority? Why is your secular or religious authority "better?"
Is 'reason' your ultimate authority (circular and subjective - "My reason is that reason is necessary for understanding.")? Is it science (circular - "I believe in science because science gives sufficient reason for the truth.")?
SKONE: "And before you attempt to a Tu quoque fallacy (i.e. You too!!), I'm appealing to what can be observed by all rather than what I alone can 'witness'."
And you bet I'll question you along the lines in which you are examining me.
All can observe and examine the Bible. It claims knowledge of God is evident in it, but men suppress the truth of it.
KNOWLEDGE about God comes from it.
Romans 1:18-22
Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who SUPPRESS the TRUTH in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is KNOWN ABOUT God is EVIDENT WITHIN THEM; for God made it EVIDENT TO THEM. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood THROUGH WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became FUTILE IN THEIR SPECULATIONS, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Because of the unbeliever's suppression and rejection of God's knowledge the Word becomes foolish to them.
1 Corinthians 2:11-14 (NASB)
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
ULTIMATE AUTHORITY is derived through our relationship with Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ALL authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Colossians 2:3b-4
resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
SKONE: "I didn't see the point of copy/paste of previous posts. Was there new information there?"
You side-stepped engaging with my questions very nicely!
"The biblical perspective is that knowledge is derived from God (eg. I am the way, the truth, and the light). We, as human beings are created in His image and likeness; thus we are capable of knowing also provided we build upon a solid foundation."
So your explanation is simple as "my interpretation of the Bible". Why should we consider the Bible an authority in anything (besides "the Bible tells me so") or accept your interpretation of it? On the former, its circular, and on the latter, it's subjective.
And before you attempt to a Tu quoque fallacy (ie. You too!!), I'm appealing to what can be observed by all rather than what I alone can 'witness'.
I didn't see the point of copy/paste of previous posts. Was there new information there?
The biblical perspective is that knowledge is derived from God (eg. I am the way, the truth, and the light). We, as human beings are created in His image and likeness; thus we are capable of knowing also provided we build upon a solid foundation.
Sorry, I missed this last part, but it is already answered.
YOU: "If you don't want to talk about what you consider the basis of knowledge that's fine. I do find it ironic you suggest god is the basis of knowledge, but apparently can't say how you know that."
The necessary basis for true knowledge is God. That is because, as I stated, He has the criterion of omniscience, eternality, and immutability - the final reference point and measure. Can we discover that knowledge without His written revelation? When we think His thoughts after Him - yes.
YOU: "False dichotomy. Even if we discount materialism, there is still any number of theistic and deistic possibilities." (Post 218)
ME: "Okay, since you are defending some competing religious claims, what are your other alternatives, not just generic but specific? If you can't list them then you are speaking from ignorance. Why should I believe you? I defend a specific God and concept of God, the biblical God and no other, as stated many times before. Let us compare worldviews. Two absolute gods or plurality of gods that contradict each other cannot both be true. Thus, what is your plurality of gods, if that is the case?
First, what is your god or gods if that/those god/gods is/are not personal?
Second, either God is a personal being or God is impersonal. Which is it? God or gods? It cannot be both.
Third, if God or gods is/are not a person/persons God/gods is/are a thing/things, not a being (i.e., pantheism). You can't have it both ways. Either God/gods is/are personal being/beings or God/gods is ascribed to a thing or things. Which is it? It can't be both.
Fourth, how has this/these god/gods been revealed to us? The Christian God reveals Himself in language and by what He has made.
Fifth, if your god/gods is not a personal being how does your god/gods have the ability to do anything and how does your god/gods sustain anything because if not a personal being/beings there is no intent?
Sixth, if your God/gods are beyond rationality and human experience then they are arbitrary non-sense.
Seventh, what are the preconditions for intelligibility and how does this come about and/or how is this possible without personhood?
Eighth, is your god/gods visible or invisible, empirical or nonempirical?" (Post 219)
YOU: "I'm not running down the rabbit holes, buddy. Either you can back the assertion I questioned, or you cant. You're dodging the question." (Post 222)
I am willing to demonstrate why the biblical God makes sense if you are willing to discuss these gods or god in relation to the biblical God as to the reasonableness of the different positions? Give me a couple of what you consider the most reasonable scenarios. How do they fit into the eight questions of Post 222? Better yet, give me some detail of your own position so I can contrast it with the biblical position.
SKONE: "I've pointed out there are more options than materialism and Jesus. It stands to reason that even if you are correct about materialism, you view is not winner by default...there are other options. Thus, changing the subject to what you believe my views to be doesnt answer the question."
You've asserted (just like I have to the contrary) there are more options but IF the Bible is true (and I state it that way because of your doubts) it states something exclusively - the biblical God is the one and only true God. Now, if you believe Jesus (the Trinity) is not the true God but there are many gods then list your god or gods so we can compare and contrast our beliefs. In this way, I can demonstrate to you why my belief is reasonable in comparison to your belief. That is the best I can do other than to state that knowledge or true justified belief would require a revelation from an ultimate, omniscient, unchanging Being since we are not that being.
If you don't want to talk about what you consider the basis of knowledge that's fine. I do find it ironic you suggest god is the basis of knowledge, but apparently can't say how you know that.
SKONE: "We're not on the same street! 😂"
That is for sure. (^8
YOU: "Jesus/god as a foundation of epistemology? I view this as a bald assertion. Why should I consider your view to be correct? Fair warning: I will not find circular arguments compelling." (Post 207)
YOU: "Let me clarify my question: why is belief in Jesus/god a valid epistemological foundation?" (Post 208)
ME: "The same can be applied to the opposite belief and foundation - matter, not personal being, as the foundation of epistemology.
Also, "Jesus is NOT the foundation of epistemology would also be a bald and bold assertion." Why should you consider your view to be correct?" (Response to Post 207)
"A system of beliefs requires verification. Christianity has many verifications that are reasonable to believe from its starting point." (NINE listed - Post 209 in response to Post 208)
ME: "The question is without God how do you tie it to personal beings as anything other than a mere preference? Then, how does preference make something "right?" (Post 210)
YOU: "I questioned your justifications for believing god is the basis for knowledge. You argued against materialism instead..." (Post 212)
ME: "Stating something (assertion) does not necessarily mean it cannot be evidenced, demonstrated, or proved." (Post 213)
YOU: "Can you justify your belief of 'god as the basis of knowledge'?" (Post 214)
ME: "See Post 209 for my justification and answer, for instance." (Post 215)
YOU: "1. You assumed I am a materialist. I do not hold that material is all there could be ...before you jump to another bad conclusion, I don't hold that there is more than material either. I consider myself to be an EMPIRICIST, so I will accept what can be demonstrated.
2. If materialism is faulty, it does not follow that your position is correct - especially in regards to a specific diety. If your goal is to show your view correct, you'll need to talk about *your* view." (Post 216)
ME: "Either materialism or a personal God. Which is it?
An empiricist falls short in many respects. He/she cannot demonstrate empiricism is all there is because he/she has to delve into the abstract and intangible such as the laws of logic to clarify anything. If you still think you are an empiricist then I challenge you to prove the laws of logic are empirical...
As for a specific deity, there can be only the One who fits the bill, since belief in gods is all contradictory in crucial ways; thus, they cannot all be true. When someone truly investigates the teachings of the Bible they can find the Christian position has amazing verifiability to it; I claim like no other, and I am open to discuss some of these ways and have done so in the past." (Post 217)